DarkSlayerZero
DMC1 Dante>>>>>>2-4
Lemme be nitpicky for a quick sec
That was Force Edge.............which apparently spoke to him. He questions if the weapon actually talked or if it was a trick from the demons.
Was anyone else disappointed with how the story went for DMC5?
- Thread starter meg5493
- Start date
Lemme be nitpicky for a quick sec
That was Force Edge.............which apparently spoke to him. He questions if the weapon actually talked or if it was a trick from the demons.
meg5493
Praise the Sun!
True though with how the serious has back seated Force Edge in favor of Rebellion being Dantes go to sword, I switched it out since it makes more sense in the context of the current series lore, though I don't remember if Force Edge was even named in the novel since I believe Yamato wasn't either.
DarkSlayerZero
DMC1 Dante>>>>>>2-4
I understand that. It wasn't name dropped at all IIRC and Yamtao didn't exist at all.
Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
Yamato already existed since dmc 1 since you can unlock it in game... Rebellion was the one who didn't existed until dmc 2 so that weapon was force edge, that novel is semi Canon...
meg5493
Praise the Sun!
In the DMC1 novel though its not stated for either weapon since either the author assumed you'd know the swords name if you cared enough or just didn't bother to put it in. Yes the novel is pretty much 100% canon since the main focus of the novel was Vergil trying to traumatize/hurt Dante and none of that is changed when referenced in 5.
DarkSlayerZero corrected my use of Rebellion instead of Force Edge which is correct, but seeing how DMC3 and onwards shows and tells that Sparda's mementos to his sons were Rebellion and Yamato and canonically 3 has the younger Dante I switched the swords to make the canon flow more smoothly. Which I'm sure if Capcom ever decides to actually make the canon make sense the events of the DMC1 novel would have Rebellion instead.
Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
The dmc 1 novel is semi Canon, not fully Canon, rebellion was created for dmc 2 and its the first time the sword happear... The sword in the novel is force edge since it was originally the memento for sparda to dante until dmc 2 and 3 retconned this... I m still surprised that some people belive that the novel is Canon since it was retconned by every dmc after dmc 1, only some event are Canon
meg5493
Praise the Sun!
It was retconned when 3 came out since the novel is really weird about Vergil but DMC1 isn't very specific about how Vergil came into Mundas' service. 5 on the other hand talks about Bobby's Cellar and how everyone was slaughtered and that Nell mysteriously died in a house fire and Dante won't talk about it....and thats basically the whole novel condensed into a summary. I never understood the need to retcon the novel back into the canon since it doesn't make sense at all and it seems the only reason they did was to bring Nell back.
Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
It's like those event happened but in a different way... They took the character a d event back but not the whole novel...
meg5493
Praise the Sun!
Well the whole crux of it revolves around Vergil, thats the mystery and the climax of the book. The fact that none of the developers thought to have a workaround for this is awkward as hell given how Vergil is treated in 5. Its the opposite for the anime since its still fully canon but yet Morrison is black no for whatever reason. It's weird little things that make it all so convulted since they don't talk about tie in stuff.
Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
I hope Capcom will clarify what is Canon and what is not soon
Hungry Alien
Well-known Member
I wasn't disappointed in DMC 5 story, but I think many things are poorly handled.
One of the most disappointing thing is Urizen as a antagonist. I'm think he is a good representation of Vergil demonic side and the dark side of Vergil with his obsession for power and denial of humanity as a source of power (the scene were he claims he just need more power after his defeat at Dante hands and refuse to accept that Dante is right is well made imo). He is almost a parody of Vergil obsession at some point, like when he claim to be absolute power and doesn't need a name. But the fact that he don't have his own attack and mostly use others boss attack just feel off. Also why doesn't he use the Yamato ? At the last fight, he doesn't have it at all. I think having him use a twisted version of Yamato at the last fight would give him a really good moveset and show how twisted Vergil obsession was.
Another thing poorly handled is the Sin Devil Trigger. In the game, it is just used as a power up to make the story go on. But it is SO poorly introduced. Dante go into his old house, and decide to impale himself with Rebellion because "Vergil did it with the Yamato". And how lucky, he got Sparda on his back and here we go, Devil Sword Dante and SDT acquired and now he is stronger than Urizen and the story can continue. It's so cheap and reward Dante for just doing a stupid thing. And also : WHY Vergil have the SDT ? He didn't make his own sword, didn't absorbed a powerfull Devil Arm, so why ? The fruit gave him the SDT ? But it surely didn't gave anything to Urizen. The only reason Vergil got it is because without it, Dante would just kick his ass.
I feel like the original concept for the SDT would have been far better. Dante becoming far stronger, but gradually losing his humanity and becoming a feral beast. And for an alternative introduction :
Dante have the SDT at the start of the game (like in DMC 2), and is outmatched by Urizen. So when Nero is defeated, Dante decide to use it despite having Trish, Lady and Nero in the room. He easily break trough Urizen defence and put him down. Urizen then see how feral Dante has become, and trick him into attacking Nero. Dante realise too late what he is doing and cancel the SDT at the last second, but is now vulnerable, allowing Urizen to charge a powerfull attack and kick Dante out of the Qliphoth. Meanwhile, V pull Nero back and they flee as Urizen charge his final blow.
When Dante awaken, he realize he can't just run at Urizen in SDT, as Urizen will use his lose of control to outmatch him. So he seek something to keep his sanity when in SDT. He eventually got into his old house, and start searching for a clue at Sparda's room. He eventually find a note addressed to him and Vergil by Sparda, explaining the hidden property of Rebellion and Yamato. he realize that Vergil used this knowledge to split himself in 2 with the Yamato, and that the Rebellion is the opposite, allowing to fuse demonic power with oneself. So he forge the DSD by impalling himself and absorbing the Sparda, and realize that the DSD allow him to keep his sanity for some time in SDT. Then he fly at Urizen and save Nero, showing that he can now use the SDT with limited time. He then force Urizen to retreat.
Finally, the last encounter with Urizen. Urizen eat the fruit, and tranform into a pseudo SDT form. This form is an incomplete SDT because Urizen is only the demon half of Vergil. Ironically, Vergil decision to discard his humanity prevent him from reaching his full potential, and Urizen is defeated. The return of Vergil and how he is able to use SDT as well is now explained. And Vergil can't fully control himself in SDT, the game show his by him only flying away and charging in SDT, opposed to Vergil usual fight style.
And for V, I think he is a brillant way to developpe Vergil. V represente Vergil human side, something we almost never seen in DMC. So it is normal for V to be unlike Vergil. He is what Vergil would be if he stopped repressing his humanity. Having V as a nice character make Vergil an even more tragic character, because we now see what he could be.
V act much like Vergil. He don't rush things, he think and he know his limit. He even have a sense of humor, and get cocky sometime. And what prevent him from living is explained : he got Vergil's crumbling body, and don't have the strengh to keep it together. So he is destined to "disapear" at the end, but even with that, he try to enjoy life and help others, maybe because he know that if he reunite as Vergil, his experience as a human will influence Vergil.
Vision of V is well down imo. At first, V is arrogant despite his condition, and even try to refuse Griffon proposal even if he has no choice. But by being weak, he learn humility and by being forced to cooperate with others, he learn that compassion can help by making his forced relationship a pleasant one. This will allows Vergil to gain new feelings he would never had with his attitude, and make him reconsider his ways. V was such a pleasant character that even Griffon and the gang decided not to get back into Vergil and instead disapear, so Vergil could start anew without his nightmares.
Vergil didn't earned all of this by himself, but rather V showed everyone that Vergil is deep down a good person. So Vergil's redemption begin at the end of DMC 5. So many people helped him get back on his feet, and now it's his time to show he is worth everyhing they've done for him.
I feel like DMC 5 allow the serie to start a new chapter from ground. There is still some blurred things, but globally everything is set for the next chapter. So DMC 6 NEED a well made story and not some mess like the previous DMC.
Sorry for my english, I'm sure I made many mistakes.
One of the most disappointing thing is Urizen as a antagonist. I'm think he is a good representation of Vergil demonic side and the dark side of Vergil with his obsession for power and denial of humanity as a source of power (the scene were he claims he just need more power after his defeat at Dante hands and refuse to accept that Dante is right is well made imo). He is almost a parody of Vergil obsession at some point, like when he claim to be absolute power and doesn't need a name. But the fact that he don't have his own attack and mostly use others boss attack just feel off. Also why doesn't he use the Yamato ? At the last fight, he doesn't have it at all. I think having him use a twisted version of Yamato at the last fight would give him a really good moveset and show how twisted Vergil obsession was.
Another thing poorly handled is the Sin Devil Trigger. In the game, it is just used as a power up to make the story go on. But it is SO poorly introduced. Dante go into his old house, and decide to impale himself with Rebellion because "Vergil did it with the Yamato". And how lucky, he got Sparda on his back and here we go, Devil Sword Dante and SDT acquired and now he is stronger than Urizen and the story can continue. It's so cheap and reward Dante for just doing a stupid thing. And also : WHY Vergil have the SDT ? He didn't make his own sword, didn't absorbed a powerfull Devil Arm, so why ? The fruit gave him the SDT ? But it surely didn't gave anything to Urizen. The only reason Vergil got it is because without it, Dante would just kick his ass.
I feel like the original concept for the SDT would have been far better. Dante becoming far stronger, but gradually losing his humanity and becoming a feral beast. And for an alternative introduction :
Dante have the SDT at the start of the game (like in DMC 2), and is outmatched by Urizen. So when Nero is defeated, Dante decide to use it despite having Trish, Lady and Nero in the room. He easily break trough Urizen defence and put him down. Urizen then see how feral Dante has become, and trick him into attacking Nero. Dante realise too late what he is doing and cancel the SDT at the last second, but is now vulnerable, allowing Urizen to charge a powerfull attack and kick Dante out of the Qliphoth. Meanwhile, V pull Nero back and they flee as Urizen charge his final blow.
When Dante awaken, he realize he can't just run at Urizen in SDT, as Urizen will use his lose of control to outmatch him. So he seek something to keep his sanity when in SDT. He eventually got into his old house, and start searching for a clue at Sparda's room. He eventually find a note addressed to him and Vergil by Sparda, explaining the hidden property of Rebellion and Yamato. he realize that Vergil used this knowledge to split himself in 2 with the Yamato, and that the Rebellion is the opposite, allowing to fuse demonic power with oneself. So he forge the DSD by impalling himself and absorbing the Sparda, and realize that the DSD allow him to keep his sanity for some time in SDT. Then he fly at Urizen and save Nero, showing that he can now use the SDT with limited time. He then force Urizen to retreat.
Finally, the last encounter with Urizen. Urizen eat the fruit, and tranform into a pseudo SDT form. This form is an incomplete SDT because Urizen is only the demon half of Vergil. Ironically, Vergil decision to discard his humanity prevent him from reaching his full potential, and Urizen is defeated. The return of Vergil and how he is able to use SDT as well is now explained. And Vergil can't fully control himself in SDT, the game show his by him only flying away and charging in SDT, opposed to Vergil usual fight style.
And for V, I think he is a brillant way to developpe Vergil. V represente Vergil human side, something we almost never seen in DMC. So it is normal for V to be unlike Vergil. He is what Vergil would be if he stopped repressing his humanity. Having V as a nice character make Vergil an even more tragic character, because we now see what he could be.
V act much like Vergil. He don't rush things, he think and he know his limit. He even have a sense of humor, and get cocky sometime. And what prevent him from living is explained : he got Vergil's crumbling body, and don't have the strengh to keep it together. So he is destined to "disapear" at the end, but even with that, he try to enjoy life and help others, maybe because he know that if he reunite as Vergil, his experience as a human will influence Vergil.
Vision of V is well down imo. At first, V is arrogant despite his condition, and even try to refuse Griffon proposal even if he has no choice. But by being weak, he learn humility and by being forced to cooperate with others, he learn that compassion can help by making his forced relationship a pleasant one. This will allows Vergil to gain new feelings he would never had with his attitude, and make him reconsider his ways. V was such a pleasant character that even Griffon and the gang decided not to get back into Vergil and instead disapear, so Vergil could start anew without his nightmares.
Vergil didn't earned all of this by himself, but rather V showed everyone that Vergil is deep down a good person. So Vergil's redemption begin at the end of DMC 5. So many people helped him get back on his feet, and now it's his time to show he is worth everyhing they've done for him.
I feel like DMC 5 allow the serie to start a new chapter from ground. There is still some blurred things, but globally everything is set for the next chapter. So DMC 6 NEED a well made story and not some mess like the previous DMC.
Sorry for my english, I'm sure I made many mistakes.
Carlos
A powerful demon
The reason why I am responding is to the bolded, but I'll respond to the rest of it if I think of it. Anyway, Dante doesn't need to lose his humanity with regards to this Devil Sin evolution. See, the difference between Dante and Vergil is that one is evil, and the other is "good." Has always been the case since the first DMC title. In DmC, Vergil is portrayed as the "good guy," which is a bit weird, in contrast to the main DMC storyline. Yes, Dante is careless, but his humanity is what kept Dante in the position he is in. When Sparda created Dante and Vergil, from my understanding, Sparda left a momento behind: A key to separating their "inner monster" from their human body, as seen with Vergil and/or V. I'm thinking for emergencies, as shown with the V/Vergil storyline.
You acquire weapons from dungeons in DMC, DMC3, and somewhat in DMC4, but in DMC5, you have a mixed bag of how you acquire it: You sometimes get it from the chapter you're in, or you get it via storyline, or you get it from someone else in the storyline. All of those weapons are Sparda's. Don't believe me? When you met Angi and Rundra in DMC3, you're greeted with their kind-of uh, "welcome to our castle, we're guarding this place for someone else." As if Temen-ni-gru was owned by them or Sparda. You gotta ask yourself, who created Temen-ni-gru? Not Vergil. He just summoned it. In DMC5, you go home in one of the chapters. Same thing happened, when Urizen (which again, is Vergil) summoned the Oliphoth. So, if DMC3 is a prequel, and DMC5 is the sequel... What makes you think SDT/DT can't evolve? I wonder what they'll do in DMC6, if Temen-ni-gru is a castle, and Oliphoth is the tree of life (it has blood, but I mean, that's the idea behind Oliphoth.)
Hungry Alien
Well-known Member
Dude I don't get what you're trying to say. Temen Ni Gru is a tower builded by demons during Sparda's time. Arkham clearly state that the Temen Ni Gru was a place where sacrifice were made and ritual were conducted by demons and their cultists. And the Devil Arms you get in DMC are the souls of the boss made into a weapon. Each boss is a demon, and most of the time not related to Sparda. Only in DMC 3 are the demons related to Sparda, and that's because he trapped them to guard the Temen Ni Gru for some (namely, Beowulf, Geryon and Doppelganger), and for the rest, he either made them submit and assigned them to guard the tower or the demons help Sparda in high regards, enough to willingly guard the tower for him (Agni and Rudra, Nevan, and probably Cerberus since he seems to respect strengh).
Also, Vergil isn't "evil" and Dante "good". That's just a very limited view. Both are in a grey area (like most character tbh). Vergil seek power, so he will never feel helpless like when his mother died and he was alone. And Dante is FAR from your average boring "good" guy. He doesn't give a **** about human lives if he isn't around to witness a threat. In Fortuna, he basically let the Order open the Hell Gate and cause a massacre in the city. He could have stopped them easily. Dante don't really do his job to help others. It's mostly because he enjoy it personally. Else he would be far more active as a demon hunter and far more responsible.
For the rest, you will need to explain youself in a clear way, because I can't understand anything you say.
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Carlos
A powerful demon
I'm not going to explain myself, I have a potty mouth, but from the tone of your post... you seem dismissive. Sooo, I'll leave you with your own garden of opinions. *rolleyes*
I'll just agree to disagree. It's been established since the first Devil May Cry, that Dante is the protagonist, and Vergil is the antagonist. And you even reflect what I said by proving my point when you say "Vergil seek power, so he will never feel helpless like when his mother died and he was alone. And Dante is FAR from your average boring "good" guy. He doesn't give a **** about human lives if he isn't around to witness a threat." I agree with bolded, but the rest of the comment? I disagree. If you paid any attention to the story, especially in DMC3, Dante does have empathy for human (lady). And when there was a threat to humans, he would have done something to prevent any more human harm. You notice this in DMC4, and DMC5. Especially at the end of DMC5. Vergil wanted more power at the expense of humans, he started to have empathy when he lost his "monster" (Urizen) form, this was evident after the fight between Dante and him (Vergil).
But you're going to disagree with that, too.
HeroOfTime
Well-known Member
Honestly i love the gameplay yet the story was a bit of a let down. Nico was annoying as hell Nero went from a ok guy to well i take one comnent to my grave kinda hated his push front and center and the twist with V made me upset no spoilers from me but if 6 keeps this story idea with Nero i might not buy it
Hungry Alien
Well-known Member
Well, yep, I disagree with some points. Vergil have until now being an antagonist and never a protagonist. But it doesn't mean that Vergil is evil. He don't do things to specifically harm others. He has a goal, and everything he does is a step toward it. Vergil is more of a neutral and misguided character. An evil character would be Mundus : when he kills Griffon out of disappointment, it was evil. There was no reason to kill one of his servant, but Mundus did it anyway. That's an evil character.
Also, yes Dante have empathy for Lady in DMC 3, but it come from a similar situation (disfonctional family), not her being a human. What Lady teached to Dante is the importance of family. At the end of DMC 3, Dante understand that family matters, while in the beginning, he doesn't care and doesn't even acknowledge his father when Vergil mentions him.
And Dante's actions in DMC 4 don't show him wanting to protect humans at all cost. IF so, he would have stopped the Savior before he escaped, destroyed the hell gates right away and joined efforts with Nero to push back the demons unleashed upon Fortuna. What he wanted was more likely to save Nero and give him a chance to save the one he loves, because Nero is part of his family and the son of Vergil.
And for Vergil at the end of DMC, I didn't saw him show empathy for humans. He questionned if he would have Dante's life if his mother saved him on the day of her death, but nothing more after that. He then only fight Dante, the Nero come, slap them both and Vergil give his book to Nero before going in hell to close the portal. He then proceed to have a sparring with Dante in hell since they can't come back. I don't see where he showed empathy for humans in here.
V's patron
be loyal to what matters
@Hungry Alien @Carlos
Sorry to jump in here, but Vergil was technically a protagonist in the DMC3 prequel manga and could've been in 3 and 4 if his campaigns was more story driven.
Protagonist and Antagonist aren't really moral terms, they just got merged with hero and villian overtime.
Protagonists are just the characters we're following while antagonists are just who or what gets in their way.
DMC has a lot of antiheroes but not necessarily an antivillian. Granted those are always harder to define.
Vergil's probably the closest to antivillian but he's the most recurring villian so its to be expected.
Sorry to jump in here, but Vergil was technically a protagonist in the DMC3 prequel manga and could've been in 3 and 4 if his campaigns was more story driven.
Protagonist and Antagonist aren't really moral terms, they just got merged with hero and villian overtime.
Protagonists are just the characters we're following while antagonists are just who or what gets in their way.
DMC has a lot of antiheroes but not necessarily an antivillian. Granted those are always harder to define.
Vergil's probably the closest to antivillian but he's the most recurring villian so its to be expected.
Carlos
A powerful demon
To be fair, I thought Dante was the antivillian in the whole series. I do agree that there are a lot of antiheroes in DMC. Though, the reason why I see Dante as a protagonist is because of how the directors treat him, the main character of the game. You play as Dante half of the time in the DMC series. However, I do agree to an extent that Dante does have this antagonist attitude (interrupting Vergil's plight), however, the way the directors portrayed Vergil, you can make the case that Vergil's a villian. Just by the word, don't worry about the rest of the ideas, the whole point of a villian is a person who has a thirst for power - not necessarily an evil person. That's how I see it. Dante is fighting back at Vergil, because he thinks that his thirst for power is going to cause the demon inside to turn to the other end of the spectrum. [Destruction]
Like Sparda before them, those thousands of years ago. Right now, in the present tense, nobody controls the demon world, but Vergil wants to control it. From DMC to DMC4, yeah, he did. But, as soon as he used Yamato to absorb Urizen, his personality changed.
At this point, we, I don't know what Vergil's agenda is. That's a question for DMC6.
I hope I explained myself sufficiently.
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V's patron
be loyal to what matters