For the record, I don't blame Whedon for how things turned out. When you see the footage without the context for a lot of these scenes I can see how it would cause a confusion. It couldn't have been an easy thing, to be in that position. Be that as it may, I wonder how much this affected the future of the franchise. Both Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill called it quits after this for varying reasons. It might've affected them more than we're led on.
You don't? Oh, good, that means I get to do it instead! This isn't to say that there
wasn't mismanagement on the executive level (i.e. Geoff Johns, Kevin Tsujihara, Jon Berg), but the extent to which Whedon participated in what was more or less
office politics and
Anti-Snyder drama on top of his own bad behavior is palpable. I don't doubt it's hard to step in after a director leaves for personal reasons, and you have to fill in and do their job. I bet it's difficult. Doesn't excuse bad behavior and disrespecting the director and his colleagues, though!
Kevin Smith:
“Remember when I went to the [Rise of Skywalker] set and some people had worked on both Solo and Justice League? The special effects guy said there was a fair amount of trash-talking of Zack’s version of the movie on-set by Joss. Again, this is what a special effects guy who worked on both versions of the movie told me. [Whedon] would cut down, dismiss, and be negative about Zack’s version, which he had seen and all these people had made together without him and stuff.” ... “The guy had said he was kind of uncomfortable on-set because the people [Whedon] was talking to about not liking that version of the movie were all people that had helped make that version of the movie, so that I think is probably the unprofessional thing. Like you don’t do that, especially if you came in to help out during a bad moment in the director’s life and stuff. But that’s hearsay.”
According to Smith this is "hearsay", but there are stories out there about Whedon being disparaging about others' writing (tossing out Zak Penn's script) or their opinions (people who didn't like his Wonder Woman script from 2006 weren't "seeing the big picture", according to him) or getting incredibly angry with crew and cast over one thing or another as soon as things get out of his control, so this story falls in line with the others.
Whedon had one job to do: get the movie done on time with a two hour runtime. Writing "
80 new script pages" wasn't necessary. Throwing out "
90% of Snyder's footage" wasn't necessary. Reportedly disparaging Snyder's cut also wasn't necessary and seems a little too
deliberate for someone that had their hands tied from on high and just wanted to honor Snyder's vision himself, even if he did initially
approach Johns and Berg about making
Batgirl (why her? why not Nightwing?) with them and Johns saw an opportunity to have him rewrite
Justice League. Snyder's 214-minute reel still existed, the post-picture lock work was done, Gal Gadot (among others) completed ADR, color grading was already done by then. If the footage hadn't reached some level of completion, there'd be substantially less than 90% of it to toss out and there would have been nothing for Jason Momoa to watch and vouch for the existence of if it couldn't be made sense of as-is. People aside from Whedon watched Snyder's existing cut and made sense of it. I'm sure he could have done the same.
If there was a metaphorical gun put to Whedon's head that forced him to remove so much footage and reportedly be unprofessional to the crew, he's welcome to say it, considering he was quick to use that "gun to the head" line to say that Marvel executives and
their excessive control over his work was why he burnt out on Age of Ultron and it turned out as underwhelming as it did.
"I respect these guys, they're artists, but that's when it got really, really unpleasant." He had no problem portraying himself as a "Victim of Executive Meddling". Is it only bad when it happens to him, or something?
Like, sure, maybe Whedon could get away with reshoots that left Atom II and Green Lantern on the cutting room floor, but removing
Cyborg's subplot
? After he was said to be the heart of the movie? Removing Flash rescuing Iris, and instead doubling down on Barry's nerd fanboyism and how he has no fighting skill? These characters were set up in BvS; keeping scenes that would endear the audience to them while reinforcing their best aspects would be the right course of action. And Cal Swanwick was already in MoS + BvS, so the payoff of him being J'onn J'onzz the whole time would reward those who watched the previous films and had theories as to why he acted the way he did in them. Not to mention the symbolism in "Kal" standing within "Cal's" reflection during the interrogation sequence in MoS. The best type of fanservice is towards the people who paid attention, not the ones that can't keep their eyes on the screen unless you throw boobs, sex jokes, or blood, and altering the work to appease people who would never watch the media anyway because they consider it beneath them is beyond compromise; it shows a lack of respect, self- or otherwise.
For all the criticism of "tone" and how many people want to push this narrative of
Zack Snyder doesn't understand the fundamentals of his characters and he makes them too dour, and also Joss Whedon saved Justice League (because "fans" want to be precious about Superman, and Snyder doesn't adhere to the Christopher Reeve nostalgia that seems to have gripped people all of a sudden), here are some general questions that likely weren't considered by people attempting to "fix" Snyder's JL for the theatrical release in 2017.
How does Barry being a typical Whedonesque Nerd With No Fighting Skills show understanding of him as a character and adhere to his fundamentals? Why keep the Johns retcon of Murdered Nora Allen as a part of his backstory, over him being heroic and rescuing Iris? Murdered Nora is what
makes Barry depressive and does not lighten the tone of the film. They know what Barry was like pre-Johns, don't they? He's the square-jawed vaguely Protestant everyman who does the right thing
because it's right, in a world where everyone else is saddled with Tragic Backstory baggage to explain why they're heroic. Barry wasn't born with powers but he would
still be a hero even if he never got them. Was it too hard to square that righteous personality with the fact that New Barry is Jewish, or something?
How does removing Cyborg's interactions with his dad and scenes of who he was pre-accident show understanding of him as a character, adhere to fundamentals, or lighten the tone? He was as underutilized in the comics when he was made a founding JL member by Johns. He either brooded about being half-robot or he was glorified IT. And then in the movie he's.... brooding about being half-robot or being glorified IT, or he's Aquaman's airplane, or.... I mean, Vic was a jock in his recent past life, I'm sure he could have been written to have a bit of trash talk and funny moments but instead he was entirely humorless. Can anyone recall any lighthearted Cyborg scene in the theatrical release that didn't involve Flash or Superman? They could have achieved giving him a sense of humor without a single "Booyah", see: Smallville. Lee Thompson Young's Cyborg had great banter with that continuity's League.
How does removing Ryan Choi show understanding of him as a character? In comics, Choi was murdered during the
Brightest Day crossover run even though everything about BD was supposed to "
lighten the tone" around DC comics at the time. His entire arc revolved around Ray Palmer being his idol and he didn't have much else to do outside of being Atom II. Even the act of Ryan being killed was meant to prop up Ray Palmer as the Greatest Atom, Ryan never showed up again in New 52, and when he was revived in Rebirth he was... looking for Ray Palmer. And then there wasn't a shred of Choi in the film. So I guess if he's not riding Palmer's nuts he's not worth having around? Ever?
How does removing Green Lantern's setup show understanding of him as a character? Snyder already established Christina Wren's character as "Carrie Ferris" across MoS and BvS, especially with the bit of her having a thing for Supes -- strong-jawed flying men happen to be her type, making it likely that Sam Benjamin was intended to be Hal Jordan. They could've written him with more comedic scenes with Ferris even if he wasn't GL, but they threw that whole thing out.
Those changes don't make me think
anyone was invested in "understanding the characters" or "lightening the tone" more than they were in getting rid of Snyder and scapegoating him because Superman snapped a neck and didn't politely ask Zod to move the fight out of Metropolis. Appeasing the critics who say that
Superman didn't save anyone is absolutely the right thing to do. Sarcasm intended.
Zack was hired by WB/DC with Watchmen, 300, Dawn of the Dead, and Sucker Punch under his belt. It's not like he sprung his vision onto everyone out of nowhere. WB and DC have been "darker than Marvel" for years before these recent movies in every way they could find. Marvel didn't cross over their property with the infamously gory Mortal Kombat series for a videogame, that was DC. The Injustice series isn't a Marvel invention, that's WB. Did Marvel chase Winter Soldier money and ground their movies because the Russos made the Cap movie a hit? No, that's DC chasing Nolan/TDK money. Is Kevin Feige or someone similar constantly pushing for character deaths, shock value stories with dysfunctional heroes for the sake of having them, and showing clear favoritism on which Marvel characters are killed off or not based on his nostalgic personal preferences? Not that I know of, that was Dan DiDio over in DC doing that, and even in Marvel, massive missteps like Speedball turning into Penance, or everything around HydraCap are the fault of someone like Mark Millar or Nick Spencer pitching the idea up and then promptly got made fun of later on. The "gritty" take DC acts like they never intended was in motion long before Snyder was on board to do MoS, and all he's done for them is MoS and BvS.
So they hired a "Marvel director" who didn't like Marvel's control over him and expected him to turn a DC movie into a Marvel movie. Except it's bad. Because there's a reason why Marvel movies don't
have Joss Whedon anymore and why they don't adhere to his tropes. Adding in a "Lois is thirsty" joke didn't help the film. The scene after Clark's resurrection where Lois hugs him and says he smells nice didn't help the film (compare: Age of Ultron, "I can feel the difference"). A camera shot focusing on Wonder Woman's ass didn't help the film (compare: the foot fetish seen in Avengers and his 2006 Wonder Woman script). Aquaman having a sappy moment while accidentally sitting on the Lasso of Truth didn't help the film. Flash pratfalling on Wonder Woman's boobs didn't help the film (compare: Bruce Banner doing the same with Black Widow in AoU). Bruce castigating Diana by bringing up Steve Trevor (as if he should know or care who that guy is?) didn't help the film (compare: the 2006 script where Steve took Diana to task over her naivete, or Cap and Tony butting heads).
Most importantly, adding the Russian family during the final battle didn't help the film. Whedon
loves to split the big action with smaller sequences where the heroes stop what they're doing to save regular people. Except he struggled with adding "civilians on the ground" scenes in Avengers during the Battle of New York. He made Sokovia one big "civilians on the ground" setpiece for Age of Ultron as well as the Johannesburg thing with the Hulk at the start of the film. And that's literally the only times that trope has happened in Marvel.
He learned that what he
thought about audiences loving that trope was wrong. --
"The only stuff we shot that really wasn’t useful was stuff I shot. I shot probably three days in both films tracking civilians, because I was like, These guys have superpowers, then they’re the Avengers. Nobody’s going to worry about them. The audience is going to want to know these civilians better. And the answer was always like, No they don’t. No they f#cking don’t..”
The audience wanted it so little that every Marvel movie with a big battle after that specifically
avoided that trope. The Civil War airport and Siberia fights weren't in populated areas. The fight in Infinity War against the Black Order didn't split from the action to show "civilians on the ground". The battle at Wakanda evacuated all of the citizens and Titan was a dead planet. Endgame happens at the ruined Avengers compound and not a city. No one likes that trope. Whedon shoved the trope into Justice League thinking people will care about the family and, well, the audience still "
f#cking don't". It was a single Russian family in an otherwise unpopulated area. Except for the whole building full of people that Supes flies by with no problem, even though we didn't know
those people existed to form a connection with them until they showed up on screen. "What Russian Family," indeed.
(But again, Snyder catches flak over MoS "being dark" even though Supes saves a bunch of civilians, and Superman destroying the World Engine had bits in between where Perry and one of his staff saved Jenny. Come to think about it, did Perry White, who just
happened to be played by Laurence Fishburne, appear for a single second in Justice League? Huh...)
I don't consider Whedon's hands
that tied when it came to writing the script to complete Justice League. After his experience with Marvel Studios and Age of Ultron, he should have known better than to do the same as usual when he could have either stepped away and found work elsewhere, or otherwise kept his head down and mouth shut and did his job, but he's all about outspoken mediocrity, nerd ego, and generally unprofessional behavior, so it really isn't surprising. He doesn't need extenuating circumstances for it; it's just a thing he does and gets away with because other people have been civil with him about his bull and at the time they'd be more interested in doing
their work than pulling him aside and setting his head straight.
But enough about Joss.
Has anyone watched a video of Snyder skateboarding around the House of El set?