The aftermath about Dante's + Vergil's plan

[EvilX-81]

TBH when the original story has "legend saves the world just once, pussifies himself on flimsy logic and turns 100% human, then lives for 2000 years to have just TWO kids, dies mysteriously and leaves his wife and kids nothing to defend themselves with" (and despite him supposedly saving Dumary and being worshipped in Fortuna as a god, we're supposed to believe he didn't pull up favors with them at all to protect his family), NT didn't really mess it up any worse than it already was. At least this doesn't allow people to wonder if Sparda impregnated Eva 2000 years ago, or through a portal.

....... Huh. Never realized any of that. Sparda was around on Earth for 2k years? Wtf?


Also I didn't realize it but lol, Dante did derail that train to save Vergil and Kat. Obviously unintentional consequence too, as when you bring down the structure and the cutscene plays, the train has mysteriously disappeared.

 

[Loopy]

It's this sort of "neither one is right or wrong" concept that I like about the confrontation of the brothers. The path for mankind isn't a clear or certain, as are Dante and Vergil's reasons to be fighting. But that's just my opinion. Those final scenes could be viewed different by everybody.

Really, you finish the game and all of the characters come out as flawed. Each one believes what they do is right, but there are flaws in the thinking and philosophy of each of them.

Mundus is right when he says humans need order and structure because all they do is kill one another and starve. But was it right that he controled them secretly? Was it right that he was aiming to own everything in the world and making sure debt kept humans from bettering their lives? I will say though that it's not like he was killing them and torturing them to control (except humans who were a danger to the regime.)

Vergil sees Mundus as a tyrant and wants to free humans. That's fine, but then when he says humans are like children and need him to rule. That's the point where you question him and start to think he's on a slippery path to being almost like Mundus.

Then there's Dante thinking humans can rule themselves. He's come to that conclusion because of how he lived being policed all his life by demons. But knowing human nature, isn't he being to optimistic? Humans will always need some sort of control to suppress their nature.

 

[Sieghart]

Mundus is right when he says humans need order and structure because all they do is kill one another and starve. But was it right that he controled them secretly? Was it right that he was aiming to own everything in the world and making sure debt kept humans from bettering their lives? I will say though that it's not like he was killing them and torturing them to control (except humans who were a danger to the regime.)

Vergil sees Mundus as a tyrant and wants to free humans. That's fine, but then when he says humans are like children and need him to rule. That's the point where you question him and start to think he's on a slippery path to being almost like Mundus.

Mundus was indeed right at that part but he rules humans for his own benefit and remember when vergil said that for him that the world is just a factory farm for human souls? Mundus already ruled the demon world and since he is very strong, why not rule the weaker world? Someone like mundus wants to prove that he is the supreme ruler of all that is why he wants to conquer the human world.

Also Vergil is more reasonable at least. He wanted to rule the human world because he wants to protects them, not to prove that he is the supreme ruler, or he have absolute power. Dante believes in freedom and humanity. But so much freedom can be bad for the community.

I would say that it's a black and white side which is really interesting. Dante is becoming a straight up hero to me and Vergil is becoming something more like a anti-hero or tragic villain.

 

[Morgan]

....... Huh. Never realized any of that. Sparda was around on Earth for 2k years? Wtf?

Yeah. The first game states that he stayed on Earth for 2k years ensuring peace for mankind and that no other demons would invade, and he only stopped doing that when he died, which allowed demons to rise up again.

DMC2 expanded on how powerful he was by saying that at some point before his 2000 years were up, he had to exorcise Argosax from Dumary Island and that the process involved sealing himself in with the demon god. He did that and escaped anyway because he was that boss.

DMC3 then (out of nowhere IMO) said that he "feared" his own power for some reason or another and locked it all away, turning himself 100% human, which doesn't explain how he still lived on earth for 2k years OR beat Argosax, not to mention how his sons inherited any demonic power. It'd be one thing if he had it but could control it (Superman/Clark Kent style), but apparently he couldn't do that so he went off it cold turkey and "died as a man".

Aside from being contradictory, every piece of Capcom-approved canon that comes out makes him seem like a d**k. Knows his enemies will be after him, but doesn't leave his family any way to defend themselves despite there being a remote island with a clan of experienced/dedicated demon hunters that he could leave them with.

He had apprentices? He left them in the human world, said "I'll be back", fought Hell, stranded himself in the human world too, and they still never saw him again.

He was the feudal lord of Fortuna? He left his people, and didn't bother to destroy the Hellgate because he felt "homesick" even knowing that going back would be a terrible idea, and all it would take was a less complicated sealing method than the one for Temen-ni-Gru to unleash Hell again right on the people he used to rule.

They keep adding more things to him that make him look worse. We don't know what this Sparda did in comparison. All we know is that he hid away with Eva without drawing attention to either of them (which committing a grand act of treason like the original series certainly would have done), that the family got found through no fault of their own, and that he hid his sons away and erased their memories for their safety. For all we know as soon as he dropped them off, he went on the war path and started wtfpwning everything in sight to draw attention to himself until Mundus caught and imprisoned him, keeping Mundus away from the knowledge of there being two Nephilim instead of just one. We don't really know, and the only person who said anything was Vergil and he didn't sound like he cared much, so how accurate would he be?

 

[Loopy]

They keep adding more things to him that make him look worse. We don't know what this Sparda did in comparison. All we know is that he hid away with Eva without drawing attention to either of them (which committing a grand act of treason like the original series certainly would have done), that the family got found through no fault of their own, and that he hid his sons away and erased their memories for their safety. For all we know as soon as he dropped them off, he went on the war path and started wtfpwning everything in sight to draw attention to himself until Mundus caught and imprisoned him, keeping Mundus away from the knowledge of there being two Nephilim instead of just one. We don't really know, and the only person who said anything was Vergil and he didn't sound like he cared much, so how accurate would he be?

For all we know, Sparda loving Eva was a one off. He could be capable of falling in love with her, but still not care about humans. Like you say, it's like Sparda was more concerned with protecting his family from Mundus than doing anything to try and stop him.

Vergil says a little more about his family and what happend in the Vergil comic, but again, it's his point of view. Frist he only introduces himself as the son of a demon, totally ignoring his mother. The says he is the son of a whore and a traitor later on.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Yeah. The first game states that he stayed on Earth for 2k years ensuring peace for mankind and that no other demons would invade, and he only stopped doing that when he died, which allowed demons to rise up again.
~nods, nods~
DMC2 expanded on how powerful he was by saying that at some point before his 2000 years were up, he had to exorcise Argosax from Dumary Island and that the process involved sealing himself in with the demon god. He did that and escaped anyway because he was that boss.

yeah, Matire even notes to Lucia that Sparda came back, like Dante doubtlessly would.

DMC3 then (out of nowhere IMO) said that he "feared" his own power for some reason or another and locked it all away, turning himself 100% human, which doesn't explain how he still lived on earth for 2k years OR beat Argosax, not to mention how his sons inherited any demonic power. It'd be one thing if he had it but could control it (Superman/Clark Kent style), but apparently he couldn't do that so he went off it cold turkey and "died as a man".

THIS I'm not sure how the impression got started. NO where did they say Sparda sealed all his power away and became a human, just that part of his power was sealed with Force Edge to create the lock, and he used his own blood, the Amulet, and the sacrifice of Lady's ancestor to seal the tower. Nowhere was it said Sparda went human and abandoned all his power

~snips teh rest because it's pretty much true~

They keep adding more things to him that make him look worse. We don't know what this Sparda did in comparison. All we know is that he hid away with Eva without drawing attention to either of them (which committing a grand act of treason like the original series certainly would have done), that the family got found through no fault of their own, and that he hid his sons away and erased their memories for their safety. For all we know as soon as he dropped them off, he went on the war path and started wtfpwning everything in sight to draw attention to himself until Mundus caught and imprisoned him, keeping Mundus away from the knowledge of there being two Nephilim instead of just one. We don't really know, and the only person who said anything was Vergil and he didn't sound like he cared much, so how accurate would he be?

Yeah, we don't know exactly what Sparda did after hiding the kids and insuring mundus didn't find out about Vergil, but it seems like Sparda kind'a just handed himself over instead of going on a warpath, since he's still alive and in some kind of imprisonment exile. Not exactly that impressive for someone that supposedly, according to the prequel comic...was another Demon King...

 

[Morgan]

Vergil says a little more about his family and what happend in the Vergil comic, but again, it's his point of view. First he only introduces himself as the son of a demon, totally ignoring his mother. The says he is the son of a whore and a traitor later on.

What is up with almost-everyone calling Eva a whore? I can understand the demons doing it since she was basically "the enemy" and led one of their own to betray his kind, but why would Vergil care? All she did was date outside her caste. If anything she's as much a traitor as Sparda is, so he's "Son of a Traitor^2". Then again double standards aren't meant to make sense so EH.

THIS I'm not sure how the impression got started. NO where did they say Sparda sealed all his power away and became a human, just that part of his power was sealed with Force Edge to create the lock, and he used his own blood, the Amulet, and the sacrifice of Lady's ancestor to seal the tower. Nowhere was it said Sparda went human and abandoned all his power

Ask Capcom. Arkham says in the manga that Sparda "died as a man" (implying that he was powerless when he became human) and he got his knowledge off some forbidden Vatican texts which (to complicate things further) are included in DMC3's manual as also having said that "Sparda sought to seal himself away forever with the demons" and that "he sealed away the demons — and his own power — forever." The Character File for him within the game says again that he "intentionally sealed himself in as well". So even if he didn't go human and abandon all his power there's still the question of whether he trapped himself in the demon world after all. I don't even know why. None of this would even have been hinted at if DMC3 didn't exist to necessitate it.

 

[Onecrazymonkey1]

What is up with almost-everyone calling Eva a whore? I can understand the demons doing it since she was basically "the enemy" and led one of their own to betray his kind, but why would Vergil care? All she did was date outside her caste. If anything she's as much a traitor as Sparda is, so he's "Son of a Traitor^2". Then again double standards aren't meant to make sense so EH.

Yeah this is why I don't feel like Vergil was even out for revenge with Mundus or gives two ****s about Eva and Sparda. His character baffles me sometimes. :/

 

[Loopy]

What is up with almost-everyone calling Eva a whore? I can understand the demons doing it since she was basically "the enemy" and led one of their own to betray his kind, but why would Vergil care? All she did was date outside her caste. If anything she's as much a traitor as Sparda is, so he's "Son of a Traitor^2". Then again double standards aren't meant to make sense so EH.

I don't know why that is. It just is.>_< What makes me laugh is how even Lilith get's in on the 'Eva the whore' band wagon when she's the one bending over for Mundus. :lol:
As for Vergil, there's something really not right if he says his own mother is a whore. Maybe it's because he values his demon side more than the angel. Like the angel part makes him weak?
Maybe he thinks that the angel part is responsible for him having feleings for Kat in the comic. And seeing as Vergil considers feelings dangerous, he wiped both of their memories to forget. I mean, he did find out his mother was killed and his father tortured for being in love. That could give a person unhealthy ideas about love and make them think loves is a weakness that gets a person killed.

 

[Onecrazymonkey1]

I don't know why that is. It just is.>_< What makes me laugh is how even Lilith get's in on the 'Eva the whore' band wagon when she's the one bending over for Mundus. :lol:
As for Vergil, there's something really not right if he says his own mother is a whore. Maybe it's because he values his demon side more than the angel. Like the angel part makes him weak?
Maybe he thinks that the angel part is responsible for him having feleings for Kat in the comic. And seeing as Vergil considers feelings dangerous, he wiped both of their memories to forget. I mean, he did find out his mother was killed and his father tortured for being in love. That could give a person unhealthy ideas about love and make them think loves is a weakness that gets a person killed.

If they ever put angels in a DmC2, I'm kind of hoping they will give them cold personalities rather then loving. I think it would be pretty interesting if the demons had more in common to humans emotion wise and instead portray angels as unsympathetic, self-righteous and unwilling to bend maybe making Eva one of the few oddballs.

 

[Loopy]

If they ever put angels in a DmC2, I'm kind of hoping they will give them cold personalities rather then loving. I think it would be pretty interesting if the demons had more in common to humans emotion wise and instead portray angels as unsympathetic, self-righteous and unwilling to bend maybe making Eva one of the few oddballs.

I'm sure there was an interview somehwere that said angels were not as nice as the image we have of them. But, you're right, it would be good if the reason angels were not seen in this game was because they didn't care about humans. Like they deserved demon rule for being sinners.
Or that angels were just waiting for demons to be overthrown for them to come in and rule.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Well, part of that comment from NT I'd assume is because people have this preconcieved notion that Angels are sweet and nice, but classically, Angels are instruments of rightful vengence of heaven. Yeah, they're good, they'rer the Light, but that doesn't mean their NICE about their jobs, and just because it's good for you overall doesn't mean you're gonn'a like it.

 

[Morgan]

I don't know why that is. It just is.>_< What makes me laugh is how even Lilith get's in on the 'Eva the whore' band wagon when she's the one bending over for Mundus. :lol:
As for Vergil, there's something really not right if he says his own mother is a whore. Maybe it's because he values his demon side more than the angel. Like the angel part makes him weak?

XD Takes one to know one, it looks like.

If this is the case then I don't think Vergil likes either of his parents, to be honest. I got that impression after Mission 2 when Dante gets that revelatory flashback about Sparda mindwiping the twins. Vergil started the whole thing off by saying that their pasts were "hidden for a reason" and that the excuses that were given to them were part of the "war [that] is fought with deception". He gave the impression that demons were trying to actively keep them from their past, then it turns out Sparda did it to save them. He probably didn't like that very much, considering his whole shtick is having power and being in control.

 

[darkmanifest]

Actually, it does. Remember, Phineas warned Dante at the beginning of mission 10 with these words:

"But be warned, the fury of Mundus is boundless. Many thousands could perish."

It's made clear that their acts could have heavy consequences. But at the cost of freeing mankind from becoming mindless followers of Mundus, it was a risk they had to take in order to safe them. Of course if there'd been a less bloodier way out they probably would've taken it, but they couldn't. Taking out Mundus was the only way to go.

And Dante does care about mankind, but when he's pulled into Limbo he has no control of the world around [with exception of devil trigger] it's not made clear if the demons he kill in Limbo are just demons in disguise, or the demon collaborators as Vergil said. This would make sense, since you see the gust of humans in the real world, but they don't turn into demons and attack you when you go up to them.

Also when The Order is under attack, Dante is heard a number of times trying to tell the other members to flee and hide, so he is worried for them, but the problem was they didn't have the sight like Kat and thus couldn't hear or see him, just like every person in the real world. Kat became a focus in that mission because she was the only one that could [and his brother included] that, and he'd gotten to known her and needed to make sure she was ok. If he'd been introduced to others at headquarters by name and had gotten to known them too, he probably would've asked about them to Kat when he saw her.

As for humans, they've only just become aware of the demons, it's likely they'll learn to fight off against them over time without the need of the army to protect them. But Dante and Vergil's reasons for why they fought are meant to be a sort of grey area, where you don't know if which one is right.

-Would mankind better off under the control of Vergil, or would he just be another Mundus down the line?
-Is mankind better off on their own to make of the world as they will, or will they cause their own destruction in the end?

It's this sort of "neither one is right or wrong" concept that I like about the confrontation of the brothers. The path for mankind isn't a clear or certain, as are Dante and Vergil's reasons to be fighting. But that's just my opinion. Those final scenes could be viewed different by everybody.

Oh, you're right, Phineas does say that; glad the game brings it up at one point, at least. But why doesn't Vergil, or Kat, say it, when recruiting Dante to their plan? At least Kat would have cared about it. And why doesn't Dante actually put in his two cents? Being made aware that you're about to take part in killing thousands of people and not taking a moment to have a visible moral conflict over it?

And that's a pretty arrogant judgment for three people to make, sacrificing the few for the many without asking those people if they wanted to make that sacrifice. It's interesting that Dante defends humanity's right to make their own choices, without considering that he took away humanity's right to choose demon rule, or Vergil's rule, and even some folks' rights to choose anything at all, because now they're dead. Maybe we're supposed to notice that hypocrisy?

Actually, I wasn't entirely fair before, Dante does express a minimum of concern for humans, when he comments on Barbas's prisoners, and like you said, when he shows concern for the Order victims. But it seems superficial to me when compared to the lack of notice he shows for the deaths that are BECAUSE of him, instead of the deaths that have nothing to do with him. I wanted Dante to express emotion for the blood actually on his hands, because it wasn't just demons or demon collaborators dead because of him. That train wasn't a demon-faced train, it was just a commuter train. Dante took it out without a second glance, same way Mundus was taking out buses and cars and buildings full of people. I can't figure out why that scene was even present if not to put Dante's morality in question; it's not like the animators HAD to show him taking that specific action. But then no one says anything.

I agree that we're probably supposed to view the final confrontation between Dante and Vergil with ambiguity about who's right and who isn't. But I wish the dialogue had been better scripted and the lead up more deliberate, and not centered on Kat. That's just my taste, though; like you said, we all see it differently.

 

[TheNoHeartedBeing]

I talked about this a while back. I dont think the demons will kill anyone. Like lets be real here. When the demons were revealed they didnt do a thing. Rages were running around like dogs. The chainsaw guys were watching strippers and the Drevak was taking pictures. I dont know if the demons will go crazy or what. All i know is that they wasnt killing anyone. Now with Vergil and Dante. I believe that Dante betrayed Vergil. Think about it. Dante only got mad at Vergil if Kat was involved. Ok what if Kat was never in the story at all. She was never there. I think Dante would have joined with Vergil then. Also if Kat would have agreed with Vergil to rule the demons, Dante would have jumped on the bandwagon. You see what i mean. Dante wasnt mad because Vergil wanted to rule the humans. He was mad because Vergil didnt care much for Kat which was a human.

 

[Loopy]

I. The chainsaw guys were watching strippers and the Drevak was taking pictures.

^^THIS:lol: I just have this really strange image in my mind now. Pervert demons at a strip club. So that's what a demon does on the day off.

 

[Onecrazymonkey1]

I talked about this a while back. I dont think the demons will kill anyone. Like lets be real here. When the demons were revealed they didnt do a thing. Rages were running around like dogs. The chainsaw guys were watching strippers and the Drevak was taking pictures. I dont know if the demons will go crazy or what. All i know is that they wasnt killing anyone. Now with Vergil and Dante. I believe that Dante betrayed Vergil. Think about it. Dante only got mad at Vergil if Kat was involved. Ok what if Kat was never in the story at all. She was never there. I think Dante would have joined with Vergil then. Also if Kat would have agreed with Vergil to rule the demons, Dante would have jumped on the bandwagon. You see what i mean. Dante wasnt mad because Vergil wanted to rule the humans. He was mad because Vergil didnt care much for Kat which was a human.

I honesty felt the same way myself at times. I liked kat as a character but I was left wondering if Dante would care about humanity if she wasn't in the picture. I also thought he gave the impression that he cared more about her than his long lost brother; which I'm sure Vergil picked up on and felt bad about.

 

[Alittleacorn]

Oh, you're right, Phineas does say that; glad the game brings it up at one point, at least. But why doesn't Vergil, or Kat, say it, when recruiting Dante to their plan? At least Kat would have cared about it. And why doesn't Dante actually put in his two cents? Being made aware that you're about to take part in killing thousands of people and not taking a moment to have a visible moral conflict over it?

And that's a pretty arrogant judgment for three people to make, sacrificing the few for the many without asking those people if they wanted to make that sacrifice. It's interesting that Dante defends humanity's right to make their own choices, without considering that he took away humanity's right to choose demon rule, or Vergil's rule, and even some folks' rights to choose anything at all, because now they're dead. Maybe we're supposed to notice that hypocrisy?

Actually, I wasn't entirely fair before, Dante does express a minimum of concern for humans, when he comments on Barbas's prisoners, and like you said, when he shows concern for the Order victims. But it seems superficial to me when compared to the lack of notice he shows for the deaths that are BECAUSE of him, instead of the deaths that have nothing to do with him. I wanted Dante to express emotion for the blood actually on his hands, because it wasn't just demons or demon collaborators dead because of him. That train wasn't a demon-faced train, it was just a commuter train. Dante took it out without a second glance, same way Mundus was taking out buses and cars and buildings full of people. I can't figure out why that scene was even present if not to put Dante's morality in question; it's not like the animators HAD to show him taking that specific action. But then no one says anything.

I agree that we're probably supposed to view the final confrontation between Dante and Vergil with ambiguity about who's right and who isn't. But I wish the dialogue had been better scripted and the lead up more deliberate, and not centered on Kat. That's just my taste, though; like you said, we all see it differently.

Hmmm, perhaps they just really didn't know the full scale of the damage that could be caused or Dante didn't until Phineas mentions it. It's like being in a zombie outbreak, if there's only one way out and you a lose numbers of survivors with you save them the group, but would that outweigh the cost of you all perishing? Sounds cold, if since the whole plan to take out Mundus was put together by Vergil, that would make sense. He doesn't care if a few 100 or even 1000 people die getting rid of Mundus, as long as there's still humans left in the world once he's done, that's probably all that mattered. We saw how he abandoned Kat a number of times and even those at The Order themselves [if it'd been Dante there with them before the attacks happened and hadn't been in Limbo, he probably would've tried to get them out. Yet Vergil just ignores them and focuses on preventing his data falling into the wrong hands.]

With Dante you're right, it would've been nice if they'd focused a bit on that, like we saw the aftermath of what happened in the nightclub, when he killed the demons there and any humans that could've gotten hurt in the attack. Same with the carnival and the city being partly destroyed. I'd of liked to have seen a scene Dante acknowledging the aftermath of him fighting the demons, even though he had got no real choice. Something like that would make him feel guilty, that at the cost of freeing mankind, so many had to perish [By the way, which train thingy was this you mention? o.o it's cause i can't remember what scene this comes up. Unless you mean the upturn level where the bridge breaks apart and the train carriages are thrown everywhere, if so that was Bob's doing, not Dante's.]

For focus on Kat near the end, the reason it did that it was because it was placing her there as a substitute for mankind in Dante and Vergil's arguement. But again I agree, not entirely in the sense that it'd been better scripted, but just that there'd been more to the arguement. Like we understood a bit more why Vergil wanted to rule and Dante didn't think it was a good idea.

But I don't know if mankind could've been able to choose about Vergil ruling over them or not, or how that would've gone about it. The city's in a state of chaos at the end, and we don't know what Vergil would've done to make himself their ruler, but we know if would've risen to power regardless of what the humans wanted. I guess for Dante he thought there was right way out and it was to stop his brother.

Makes me think of the Enslaved ending where Trip shuts down Pyramid to wake everyone from the dream they've been inside the machine, she asks a really important question, but an uncertian one 'did I do the right thing?'.

Actions always have consequences to them, big or small. O.O

 

[TheNoHeartedBeing]

^^THIS:lol: I just have this really strange image in my mind now. Pervert demons at a strip club. So that's what a demon does on the day off.

Here they are. They had a front row seat as well.View attachment 334

 

[Loopy]

Here they are. They had a front row seat as well.View attachment 334

It kinda looks like some of them wanted to join in :lol: I wonder how a demon like that would pole dance? :blink: I know for sure there would be blood when they spin around near people. Check out the blades. Lilith should not let them dance unless she wants dead customers.