Sexism and sexuality in games.

[V]

Yes but games are 'entertainment'. They are not always trying to be compatible with real life. It's escapism.

Some people appear to like their escapism to be as much like real life as possible. I like there to be a happy medium between the two; not too bizarre or so tripped-out that I cannot understand it, but at the same time I have enough of 'real life' to want to get away from it and explore the "what if it WASN'T like real life" as well. That's why I don't have a particularly big problem with scantily clad women or men in games running into battle because an exceptionally realistic fighting game would be - to be bluntly honest - boring. You're not in a combat simulator at your console - you're pushing buttons, you need more than just 'reality onscreen'. It would be far less exhilarating than participating in a real martial arts contest, which is providing something different from this type of arm chair entertainment anyway, wouldn't you say.

I also appreciate games like Call of Duty series trying to simulate WW2 or actual combat as well and that's fine if you want that. But realism isn't really king in the world of video games. Visually perhaps, but after all we are on a forum for a series of games in which the main character can run up and down buildings and fly. "Realism" isn't really what we play for at the end of the day, is it.

 

[V]

^ That's true, I am sure they could, but there's a lot of constraints on developers with time and money, at least at the moment with games taking more and more time and bigger and bigger development teams to create within the usual window of 1-2 years. I guess it's not impossible that developments could be made in the methods used to flesh out and decorate the gaming world with this upcoming gen that could free up some time and resources for developers to spend on characters, personalities and customization.

But when you look at the current system in place for producing games, what we get at the end is a tight trade-off between all the things those developers would love to do and what they just didn't have the time for. But that will change, especially if games become as popular, if not more than movies, or start moving away from the current types to more online worlds that can be continually built upon with no time constraints really applicable.

 

[aoshi]

Male characters are just as overly sexualised as women, i think it's just the maturity level varies for each individual when dealing with it.

​

Dude, brock lesnar is not about sex appeal. That guy is a fighting machine in WWE and MMA. I agree WWE is fake but still there was nothing sexual about brock lesnar when he was or is in WWE.

And yea, the men are also overdone. Look at Chris Redfield's arms in Resident Evil 5. They're bigger than - or as big as - his head. It's ridiculous. Not idea what they were going for there, but it stood out as a design-anatomy brain fart to me. Yea there are bodybuilders out there who do have biceps bigger than their head and they're grotesque. Realistically a man who needs to work in special ops needs a good physique but not one that's gonna get its circulation cut off by his combat gear, or one that would hinder his speed and maneuverability.

Again, Chris redfield is not an over-sexualised male character. I believe the subject of this thread is about sexual portrayal of female characters. Don't know how chris redfield from RE 5 is in this subject. Yeah, many criticized his disproportionate arms but , hey, it's a video game. If people want female characters doing male stuff cuz it's jus a video-game, I don't see a problem with chris redfield being video-gamey physical.

Kat from DmC was the only female character I think I have ever liked in a game because she was, to me, refreshingly normal. Dressed like most teens I see around town, able to hold her own to an extent but also portrayed as vulnerable in an appropriate manner. I mean, come on, what's more realistic?

 

[V]

The subject is sexism and sexuality in videogames so it pertains to any gender, if someone wants to discuss the objectification of men in games, so be it.

Chris Redfield wasn't over-sexualised, he was disproportionate. I don't remember saying he was "over sexualised", just overdone physically. I also don't especially care if he was, but it was an example of physique that made a lot of people I know say "ha, meathead". It didn't incite visions of male sexualisation so much as negative stereotype, "jarhead", "roid rage" etc. I have no idea if this was a few people saying Chris was a crap design or whether most people thought it was "way cool" mind you. I just noticed negativity even from men regarding his build. As if it was just "a little too much".

If you look at the sailor costume supposedly available for Chris in the next game, I guess you could say that hints at sexualisation, even gay sexualisation. You have to ask yourself why does he have this outfit? Because even the folks I know who live under rocks noticed the gay 'connotations'.

The extra costume available for characters in the last few games of that series are probably intentionally silly/just for fun but you can't rule out that Chris' warrior outfit or Sheva's tribal aren't supposed to be either fanservice, "sexy" or whatever because they are completely inappropriate for the characters and the story. So even if in the main game you have the characters dressed non-sexualised you still have the option to take off some of their clothing with new outfits, or "sexualise" them, if you will.

 

[aoshi]

The subject is sexism and sexuality in videogames so it pertains to any gender, if someone wants to discuss the objectification of men, so be it.

Hmmm....

Chris Redfield wasn't over-sexualised, he was disproportionate. I don't remember saying he was "over sexualised", just overdone physically.

So you agree that chris redfield was not a sexual objectification and yet you bring him in a thread that's about objectification. My point exactly.

I also don't especially care if he was, but it was an example of physique that made a lot of people I know say "ha, meathead". It didn't incite visions of male sexualisation so much as negative stereotype, "jarhead", "roid rage" etc. I have no idea if this was a few people saying Chris was a crap design or whether most people thought it was "way cool" mind you. I just noticed negativity even from men regarding his build.

Well, i have seen an RE fan actually inspired from chris redfield and that he enrolled himself to a gym. He even posted his physique and was quite impressive. There will always be people who will not like characters but that does not mean true of the characters. I don't see much hatred in RE forums for his physique besides criticism that it was unnatural. Like i said, It's a video-game and don't necessarily need to comply with reality

If you look at the sailor costume supposedly available for Chris in the next game, I guess you could say that hints at sexualisation, even gay sexualisation.

Oh yeah, and ada was naked in RE 6. Now does that make her a porn-star??? You are making assumptions that someone acts sexually in a movie and immediately term them as sex workers when they were only playing a character that demanded authenticity.

 

[V]

...Yeeah. Well I don't get on with you so I'd rather not discuss this with you.

 

[aoshi]

...Yeeah. Well I don't get on with you

Sorry, Don't really care.

 

[V]

Well if you were wondering why some people call you a troll on these boards - as you mentioned in a rant topic on here once before - it might have something to do with the way you speak to people here. You come across as bluntly personal and/or rude. Little FYI for ya.

 

[darkslayer13]

Yes but games are 'entertainment'. They are not always trying to be compatible with real life. It's escapism.

Some people appear to like their escapism to be as much like real life as possible. I like there to be a happy medium between the two; not too bizarre or so tripped-out that I cannot understand it, but at the same time I have enough of 'real life' to want to get away from it and explore the "what if it WASN'T like real life" as well. That's why I don't have a particularly big problem with scantily clad women or men in games running into battle because an exceptionally realistic fighting game would be - to be bluntly honest - boring. You're not in a combat simulator at your console - you're pushing buttons, you need more than just 'reality onscreen'. It would be far less exhilarating than participating in a real martial arts contest, which is providing something different from this type of arm chair entertainment anyway, wouldn't you say.

I also appreciate games like Call of Duty series trying to simulate WW2 or actual combat as well and that's fine if you want that. But realism isn't really king in the world of video games. Visually perhaps, but after all we are on a forum for a series of games in which the main character can run up and down buildings and fly. "Realism" isn't really what we play for at the end of the day, is it.

the point is that if a game has any intention of being realistic it becomes difficult to include female characters in major roles and since a lot of games are in realistic settings that is a significant factor even if not everyone prefers those settings. i don't care about realism but some people do therefore that is a factor that effects the inclusion of female characters in games.

 

[V]

But why should gamers have to make their own games to enable them to play the sort of female characters that they want? Surely people whose job it is to MAKE games have a degree of responsibility to provide the consumer with what they want? I don't think I'm being at all unreasonable in my requests.

What sort of women would you put into games, or would like to see?

I think for me personally (as far as games go) I like to be "refreshingly surprised". Nothing gets me loving a new game and its characters faster than having my expectations subverted in a good way. Not seeing a selection of stuff that is embarrassingly overtly catering to a bunch of stereotypes in the hope the gamer will like at least one of them. Like: seeing an action heroine that doesn't have part of her combat armor removed to show cleavage - that's refreshing to see. I thought Yuna in FFX (first one only) was an interesting and refreshing character because she was quite the demure one, in appearance and personality, yet you were led to believe she had this massive inner strength and determination that surpassed all your initial judgements, and its admirable. Or Jack, in ME2. I was surprised by her, not least because at first I assumed I was not searching for a woman, and I loved her bad attitude, it was perfect given the scenario and played well and 'different' from what females you often get in games who are usually made to be morally appealing in some way. Jack is just Jack and she's great for that. I admit I usually prefer my women characters to wear some clothes and shine through in other ways, but given the right context, it works for me.

 

[V]

the point is that if a game has any intention of being realistic it becomes difficult to include female characters in major roles and since a lot of games are in realistic settings that is a significant factor even if not everyone prefers those settings. i don't care about realism but some people do therefore that is a factor that effects the inclusion of female characters in games.

Well yeah, the guy makes the point of that in the video... but also the point that games can be taken anywhere. It's a balance I guess.

Some people don't want that balance, like a guy from Peru who joined my forum a while back who complained that Sheva's mere presence in RE5 was subverting Chris' masculinity. Obviously that's up to him but Chris is actually slightly stronger in hits, anyway. I think he disliked the idea that a woman should have been there at all, or that she should have just been the 'prize' at the end for him to rescue, in which case, it makes you wonder whether someone like him gets any joy out of games at all, as most of them must be an endless source of fury for him these days with all those damn women popping up in them. Then again I also suspect he would have complained if Sheva was a helpless character constantly needing to be rescued or walked with as well.

Games like MW are meant to be realistic but there are plenty of games that aren't. I wouldn't say Resident Evil was ever supposed to be more realistic than schlocky B-movie derived fun. I mean when you have a guy complaining that Sheva isn't realistic but a guy who turns into a whale monster's tongue is, you know he doesn't have a convincing argument.

 

[darkslayer13]

Well yeah, the guy makes the point of that in the video... but also the point that games can be taken anywhere. It's a balance I guess.

Some people don't want that balance, like a guy from Peru who joined my forum a while back who complained that Sheva's mere presence in RE5 was subverting Chris' masculinity. Obviously that's up to him but Chris is actually slightly stronger in hits, anyway. I think he disliked the idea that a woman should have been there at all, or that she should have just been the 'prize' at the end for him to rescue, in which case, it makes you wonder whether someone like him gets any joy out of games at all, as most of them must be an endless source of fury for him there days with all those damn women popping up in them. Then again I also suspect he would have complained if Sheva was a helpless character constantly needing to be rescued or walked with as well.

Games like MW are meant to be realistic but there are plenty of games that aren't. I wouldn't say Resident Evil was ever supposed to be more realistic than schlocky B-movie derived fun. I mean when you have a guy complaining that Sheva isn't realistic but a guy who turns into a whale monster's tongue is, you know he doesn't have a convincing argument.

if the words "subverting masculinity" come up in a conversation because of a female character sexism is definitely involved. and if anyone expects something like Resident Evil to be realistic they don't really get the point.

 

[Bazilican]

I don't mind female gamers and female characters in games. However, I do mind if they try to exploit themselves in the most uninteresting ways. However, I will also say that I prefer games with girls who have big breast, a firm ass, and sexuallity. That may seem odd for me to say here, but Female gamers have had games with sexual dudes (DmC with a naked Dante).

 

[Angel]

What sort of women would you put into games, or would like to see?.

You know, I completely forgot about Yuna - which is weird because I'm running through FFX again lately. I actually liked Yuna because she's portrayed well - her role is a hard one, her end goal is not something that everyone could cope with and yet she carries out her duties with grace and poise and...I dunno. There's something rather special in how she has been created. It's very hard for me to completely pinpoint what I would want, but I can pull ideas from existing characters as examples such as Yuna and Kat, whom I have already mentioned. I'd like to see some real depth to a character (male OR female), not a bunch of half-baked ideas smashed together with a few well-established stereotypes.

The outer-appearance is not so important as the layers of their personalities. People are multi-faceted and that ought to be reflected when crafting a video game character. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean it has to be dull and lifeless. Indeed, you have more scope with the land of make believe simply due to its lack of real life limitations. Some of the best characters crafted in terms of personality and depth seem to be found in the world of JRPG's. I have no idea how they do it without making it horribly cliched but they do. You become so invested in the people you are playing as that when the inevitable plot-twist happens, it really does affect you. And I LOVE that. For a female character to be that engrossing, I would want enough time given to making her more than just a pretty face...

It's weird now I think of it though, because I don't put that sort of emphasis on the male characters in games - the default option, if you like. Maybe it's just years of "you've got a guy character, deal with it" that has meant I'm just used to how they are portrayed? Maybe it's deep-rooted sexism (most likely )? Maybe it's because I'm female and expect more from a portrayal of my own sex? If I sat down and thought about it and then applied a little pop sociology, I'm sure I could come up with a bunch of pat theories that don't really explain anything but sound intelligent enough to get away with it...but who has time for that? More importantly, who cares?

You mentioned Jack from ME - I liked her right up until she started crying after sex with Shephard. And then the cliche kicked in of "hard girl gone soft" and I was annoyed. I would have LOVED it if she'd slapped him on the backside and thrown a fiver at him before sauntering out of the door, hands in pockets, whistling. Dunno why, the image just amuses me...

Ok, you got me babbling (it's not hard after all) - ultimately, I would like to see flawed women. Flawed as in normal, making mistakes, looking a bit unattractive sometimes, flying off the handle or crying with frustration. Women recognising their weaknesses and dealing with situations accordingly rather than trying to handle the whole world at once. Women affected by the sorts of things that affect them in real life. Women who are real and as multi-faceted as we are in life. A tall order, I guess, but with the next generation of gaming coming up fast, I don't think it's entirely unrealistic. They don't have to be all things to all women or anything, but just taking Yuna, Jack, Kat and the like as good examples of different facets...yeah, I'd say that's a good starting point for devs starting out with a new idea.

 

[aoshi]

Well if you were wondering why some people call you a troll on these boards - as you mentioned in a rant topic on here once before - it might have something to do with the way you speak to people here. You come across as bluntly personal and/or rude. Little FYI for ya.

Yeah, Says the one that's attacking personally with no relevance to subject of this thread or conversation that was. Take your own advice.

 

[V]

if the words "subverting masculinity" come up in a conversation because of a female character sexism is definitely involved. and if anyone expects something like Resident Evil to be realistic they don't really get the point.

One of his major gripes was that Sheva - despite being rather smaller than Chris, was apparently able to keep up with him, do all the physical things he was doing like kick zombies in the face, and so on. Because of his insistence, I actually did a test on that game and smacked zombies around with both characters. Chris does have higher-powered kicks and moves, but not 'obviously' so... but he can do a move that finishes them off whereas I think Sheva needs to hit slightly more. Chris might even have a slightly higher damage capacity like I think there was in some of the earlier RE games for male characters. But this dude was not satisfied with this, he just thought the idea Sheva was alongside him at all was a part of some feminist agenda designed to emasculate male gamers (or something).

I didn't have issue with Sheva not being the powerhouse Chris is - it's pretty standard in games for smaller or female characters, esp. in the fighting genre to be generally weaker but make up for this in speed or some other ability. And it adds variety, to have different abilities and strengths.

 

[V]

The outer-appearance is not so important as the layers of their personalities. People are multi-faceted and that ought to be reflected when crafting a video game character. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean it has to be dull and lifeless. Indeed, you have more scope with the land of make believe simply due to its lack of real life limitations. Some of the best characters crafted in terms of personality and depth seem to be found in the world of JRPG's. I have no idea how they do it without making it horribly cliched but they do.

I agree, some of the most memorable characters hail from JRPGs, perhaps because crafting personalities in J games and manga is definitely on the agenda when they intend to have a series or a game that's going to take some time to get through, and the audience needs to become attached to said characters. Character development is a strong point of theirs, which is why I got into manga and anime, too, I guess. I found something in those that seems to be overlooked over here... some real emphasis on the human failings, desires and pains of those characters, or a way of portraying it... that seems to be absent from our media in the way they do it. We focus on action and events, they seem to focus just as much on emotion and motivation as action.

You mentioned Jack from ME - I liked her right up until she started crying after sex with Shephard. And then the cliche kicked in of "hard girl gone soft" and I was annoyed. I would have LOVED it if she'd slapped him on the backside and thrown a fiver at him before sauntering out of the door, hands in pockets, whistling. Dunno why, the image just amuses me...

Haha, YES. That would have been more to my liking too. :lol:

 

[Demi-fiend]

Hm... might as well throw in my two cents.

Leaving um... promiscuity aside, there's another trope I have a huge problem with.

"Waif-fu".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=waif-fu

I just figure... if a lady is capable of beating up 10 men twice her size on high protein diets, then you'd think she would look a little more muscular and a little less porno.

And Angel, I'm glad you like Kat. I find that, she was only human, so she had to use her brain + her psychic astral projection ability in order to compensate for that. And she was actually a huge help because of that.

I still don't know how DMC3's Lady (a mere human) could have done all those acrobatic feats while taking on all those demons. I still hold onto the theory that when her father transformed into a (semi-powerful) demon, she somehow became "infected" as well (through a psychic connection or something like that), thus making her stronger and faster than most humans.

Either way, like most people here have already said, there should be more variety in female characters, both at a physical and intellectual level.

 

[Angel]

Then they'll be gamers complaining that that character isn't living up to the possible potential, gamers will complain why is she unattractive or flawed.
Few will be satisfied with that & they'll those that has issue with it too.

That's what i hate about games today.
Trying to be realistic in a fantasy world.
I can't stand it at times.

When i play a game i don't want to see characters being realistic in fantasy situations, i relate to some game character. I want to be lost in the fantasy.
I no desires to have some game character represent my life, my feelings, my thoughts, my actions. That's a reason i disliked the TombRaider Reboot

There will be gamers complaining no matter what anyone does. All I did was put what I personally would want for characters - I'm certainly not speaking for anyone else but myself. I adore the fantasy genre and always choose non-human races where possible so I can completely immerse myself in something so out of the ordinary. It's the only time I don't care whether I'm male or female; if you're a lizard race that can breathe underwater, who cares what sex you are?

I do, however, think it may be a bit of a sweeping statement to say that few would be satisfied with a certain type of character - I mean, it's not really happened yet so who is to know what gamers may or may not like? Most games have some sort of levelling-up facility so perhaps this could be incorporated when developing an initially-flawed character? Not everything has to be realistic, of course, so within the fantasy genre particularly maybe it doesn't matter so much...but sometimes it's nice to have a character you can relate to even a small bit. For some people, that can be what attracts them more to a game. It's not for everyone, granted, but what game has EVER pleased EVERYONE?

 

[Angel]

If people wanted realism then many wouldn't be playing games.

I'm not so sure about that - take soap operas, for example. They imitate real life as much as possible and are watched by millions every time they are on. The reason? It's safe realism - a combination of realistic scenarios and relatable characters mixed with the escapism of watching it happen to someone else from the safety of your sofa. Doesn't float everyone's boat of course but it's a powerful tool in media that has actually been shown to be successful. I've seen countless complaints about the LACK of realism within certain genres. Fantasy aside, there are plenty of other titles out there which would not be what they are if they just blew apart the boundaries and anything went. When someone picks up a shooter, they are going to want bullets coming out of their gun, not fairies. If you don't like realistic games then that's perfectly ok - no one is saying you have to like it. But it works both ways. If someone DOES like the realism aspect, then that's ok too.