Sexism and sexuality in games.

[V]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php

Nice talk, some members here may find it particularly interesting. Putting it in black and white how the conservative forces of the games industry are up against the changes and expectations in it as games enter our wider culture at large. Talks about the issue of having female protagonists "on the covers/box" which is something I find genuinely surprising these days if female gamers now make up nearly half the true demographic.

Good to see someone just being honest about how the industry thinks and not giving a PR talk. I've watched it unfold since the 80s and it's actually come a long way. Now that games are being 'noticed' by mainstream culture though, they'll have to run the gauntlet of it which is something it's never really had to do before.

 

[V]

He does mention that it's implied by the 'business brain' of the industry that a woman lead "doesn't sell well right now". But what about all the male leads of games that don't sell well? Did they not sell because of "him" or because it was a poor game or poorly marketed? It's an assumption that will eventually go away as the audience broadens.

Like the guy said in that talk, if they were to deliberately go and 'cater' for women only in a videogame - women who've been playing the games on offer now for long enough - would it not be patronizing to them to try to make something emphasizing the 'difference' or as if trying to say "hey, now THIS is what women like! We KNOW what women like!" Like he said, pink packaging and and all that crap. If there are already many female gamers what they need is more diverse representation and not to be 'treated different' in that respect. We've all been playing games as muscle bound dudes for decades, we can all do that, now there's no reason not to try something a little different. Diversity wins out in every scenario if the future is going to mean that all demographics get into games, which I figure is pretty much the only way it's likely to go. As he says the fear of the financial backers is just something financial backers always do until they spy an undeniable market, and the 'nerd rage' against female protagonists is really just whinging because that formerly privileged group seem to think it's their "territory" being 'trampled on'.

I do like those sorts of games where you can totally customize and choose your character and have ANY kind of romance because it's NOT forced on the player. If you don't want gay romance, you don't talk to that character and initiate one - people can't get mad that they deliberately bagged a gay lover in their game that way. Or that they created a female to play as. Mass Effect was great in that respect, the player is partially responsible for what they do and the developer is giving choice to the mix. Win-win

 

[aoshi]

I don't think gamers who prefer male lead characters are biased against female characters. This statistics is very well reflected in other forms of entertainment as movies. So why is gaming accused of not making female lead games when most prominent form of entertainment(movies) dont?

Its not jus games, women sexuality is used almost everywhere. Axe commercials anyone?????

EDIT : I also think its the nature of entertainment that games and movies offer that don't fit female characters as leads. But still, female characters have significantly increased in games like resident evil, tekken, street fighter, Mortal kombat, Marvel vs capcom 3. Its jus that they don't lead the games. But that's the case with movies too.

 

[darkslayer13]

choice does prevent complaints but there are limitations to stories that allow the player to make those choices so most games have to present players with a set character with specific traits and to truly move past the bias and prejudice in games players have to play as characters with traits different from the assumed ( and increasingly inaccurate) default white male player (or whatever race is the majority in whatever country the game is made in). this has already happened to a limited extent with female main characters and with characters of different races. but like all media video games have some difficulty acknowledging these differences without resorting to stereotypes and other traits outside of the assumed demographic are generally only included in a main character if the point is to include that type of character which video games don't have any reason to do since the point is in the gameplay.

with female characters there are additional issues. games have a tendency to involve situations where it would be unrealistic to include a large number of female characters and of course the biggest problem is that the assumed demographic wants female characters to be sexually attractive but is not interested in and is in some cases extremely uncomfortable with male sexuality and sexuality and sexism are connected in peoples minds to a very high degree. they are of course not completely unrelated concepts but some people treat them as the same concept which is not accurate.

 

[Martius]

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lol I hated MassEffect's choices for romance. I didn't care for Liara T'Soni, Kaidan, & Ashley was only an option for male created character. ​

So i picked the obvious only option, Liara T'Soni. ​

The options were disappointing in that area. ​

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It's like it's nice to have the option, but the choices sucks.​

I must agree, it looks like after so many years Bioware learned nothing. And Gaider saying that Isabela look can be justified while pretty much all human female characters are using same model with gigantic rack - from your old mother to Isabela.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

Sexism still exists in video game industry.
Sure,we got those badass female characters like Bayonetta,but they're still so over-sexualised,to target the male audience.When I first saw Bayonetta I thought it was a supernatural porn adventure game.I only liked the gameplay.
Most games make females so over-sexualised that they don't even bother to give them a strong personality.They must give them tight clothes,or make them as nude as possible and give males badass armors and make them look like culturists on steroids.
Women are still viewed as sexual objects by the society and only this.Even in games.
It's sad.
About sexuality in games,I haven't seen any characters with a different sexual preference to be noticed.

 

[Shadow]

games have a tendency to involve situations where it would be unrealistic to include a large number of female characters

I respectfully disagree with this entirely. Women can easily fit into the same situations as men, especially in gaming. Women can be strong or weak, the hero or the villain, intelligent or idiotic just like men. The only limitations for women in gaming are poorly written game scripts and people with small minded-views dictating their roles.

 

[V]

I respectfully disagree with this entirely. Women can easily fit into the same situations as men, especially in gaming. Women can be strong or weak, the hero or the villain, intelligent or idiotic just like men. The only limitations for women in gaming are poorly written game scripts and people with small minded-views dictating their roles.

In worlds of fantasy as opposed to anything trying to 'emulate' the real world, like FPS war games or whatever, there is absolutely no argument where women shouldn't number the same as men, if not more. Example off the top of my head right now - FFIX, Alexandria soldiery, nearly all women but six or seven dudes. Didn't stick out or seem jarringly 'unrealistic' at all because it's a pure fantasy setting, anything goes. And sci-fi or "alternate universe Earth" could do the same too if it created a satisfactory premise for it, like say that in Y: The Last Man.

Not to mention didn't the U.S. just pass a bill allowing women in direct combat. Soon the 'realistic' games will be unrealistic.

 

[Angel]

I personally would be extremely put off a realistic shooter game with mostly women in it. But then I don't really have much time for women in video games full stop...

 

[Chancey289]

When it comes to video game characters they do tend to try and service the male demographic more often. Male protagonist are usually made out to be this kind of male power fantasy coming off like its a compliment but we rarely see stuff like this done to female characters and that's a shame.

For example, it's a shame that Remember Me game was actually getting turned down by publishers because it had a female protagonist that had a boyfriend. That's technically saying girls are allowed in video games but they are not allowed to have a life. It has to still service the male demographic that would not want to be playing a girl kissing a guy because "that's gay!"

Also Elizabeth not being on the cover of Bioshock Infinite even though anyone who plays it knows damn well she's the real star of that game. Just because they were afraid that a girl on the cover would affect sales.

The creepy cull of female video game protagonist.

I know there are spineless gamers out there that literally have an issue with playing as girls. Hell, I knew a guy who refused to play as girls in fighting games because he felt like his manhood was lost or something if he did. (He was an idiot anyway.) But I also like to think a large majority of gamers really don't have that issue and are just looking for some good games you know.

We do have some female characters out there that are actually pretty good ones. Like Samus Aran from Metroid. (Other M doesn't f*cking exist so don't bring up that fake Samus) On the other hand more often we're getting the "DOA girls" treatment to our female characters. Hell, even Devil May Cry basically just has girls that serve the purpose of just being eye candy. Somebody brought up Bayonetta and geez that character is just freaking ridiculous.

Sure you'd find the DMC girls and Bayonetta to be these amazing characters, if you're prepubescent. Overall, I think the gaming industry needs to stop thinking video games are played mostly by a bunch of douchey frat dudes or something. The gaming industry is a massive industry. That means there is a lot of different people that like to play video games. Just like watching movies. Maybe we need to stop pretending the audience for medium is special or something because I think that's probably also a reason video games still aren't universally a respected form of art. :/

 

[V]

A part of it might be that people 'out there' are still struggling with the idea that games are played by women, or anyone over the age of 20, or anyone who isn't still living in mom's basement, etc. when it's painfully obvious now that games are practically a family pastime - or played by all members of the family, maybe even the grandparents. Why this idea clings that it's just teen boys that play games is totally over my head. Literally everyone I know either has a gaming console, a PC or has played games at some point. I don't know anyone who hasn't, even the old people.

So maybe the stats are skewed by people not owning up to playing games or being gamers because it's considered a 'kid's' thing, and stigmatized as a "loser's pastime" in our society. I even heard some woman on the bus the other day saying how men over 30 "shoudn't be sitting around playing games", though clearly the guy she was on about, either a relative or boyfriend or whatever was WELL INTO IT. (So like, what should he be doing I wonder? Tinkering with his midlife crisis car? Down the pub watching football? And other stereotypical activities?)

People are gameist. Games are seen as frivolous childish or peurile activities, not even viewed as art by some when clearly there is artistic input of many kinds, but it can't stay that way for long when a games console is now as normal under the TV as a DVD player.

 

[V]

I personally would be extremely put off a realistic shooter game with mostly women in it. But then I don't really have much time for women in video games full stop...

I get bothered by the stereotypes of them presented in games from time to time, you never see a conventionally unattractive one for sure, but usually they are crafted in games now to be as un-annoying as possible to men (if you can overlook the fact they're more-often-than-not put there as lust objects for straight men), it's usually very obvious which women we are supposed to hate and which we are to like or be intrigued by as the target audience for the game. You can feel the effort they go to now to make women appealing in games, but it's still pretty juvenile-level stuff.

In guess some characters really are annoying but that depends on personal preference. The Japanese Jailbait character that perpetually shows up in RPGs and is bubbly and happy ad nauseam is usually very annoying to me, but they've been put there as fanservice to cater to people who love that 'type'. Or the Love Triangle thing. I remember Aeris annoying the hell out of me in FFVII for example because she clearly wanted in my pants and I was going out of my way to date Barrett. Chloe in the Uncharted games is probably my favourite representation of a character you can love, hate, or love to hate, that they've tried to make deeper and more intriguing than most. I think a few of my friends dislike Chloe for the reason she's happy to share herself sexually with other characters but they're also happy to overlook that the male characters are JUST as happy to share themselves sexually and screw each other over to get what they want, so I can't accept that excuse. But I think her VA goes overboard sometimes trying to be sultry.

But no character in any video game can be considered 'that' realistic, nor the men, unless it's making a special effort to be as realistic or gritty as possible. Even then it's an infinitely inadequate approximation of reality.

 

[V]

(That's one of the reasons I love the later Soul Caliber games - I spend more time creating characters than playing as them)

And yea, the men are also overdone. Look at Chris Redfield's arms in Resident Evil 5. They're bigger than - or as big as - his head. It's ridiculous. Not idea what they were going for there, but it stood out as a design-anatomy brain fart to me. Yea there are bodybuilders out there who do have biceps bigger than their head and they're grotesque. Realistically a man who needs to work in special ops needs a good physique but not one that's gonna get its circulation cut off by his combat gear, or one that would hinder his speed and maneuverability.

 

[Angel]

I have to ask, why is it exactly that you hate women.

I get bothered by the stereotypes of them presented in games from time to time, you never see a conventionally unattractive one for sure, but usually they are crafted in games now to be as un-annoying as possible (if you can overlook the fact they're put there as lust objects for straight men), it's usually very obvious which women we are supposed to hate and which we are to like or be intrigued by as the target audience for the game. You can feel the effort they go to now to make women appealing in games, but it's still pretty juvenile-level stuff.

I don't outright hate women because then clearly I'd have to kill myself on principle...

Most of my implied misogyny comes from a desire to wind up hardcore feminists who believe men ought to be kept down under their 8-inch heels (you know, the ones who aren't actually feminists in the traditional sense). But with regards to video games, well I'll be the first to admit that I don't play a vast and varied range of them so the ones I do play have crap women in them. Women who are either impossibly proportioned, so dumb it's not even funny or utterly crammed full of ball-breaking attitude, something I also have no time or respect for. There are very few "normal" women depicted in games, which I can kind of understand given that sex sells and a pair of massive boobs straining against a tiny top is more attractive than a big ol' scrotum staring you in the face, but I still can't get to that stage where I actually CHOOSE to play the female option in a game. I think the only time I have actively chosen to be a female in a game is when I played Rainbow 6 Las Vegas 2 - and that's only because the outfit looked better on the female skin than the male one.

Kat from DmC was the only female character I think I have ever liked in a game because she was, to me, refreshingly normal. Dressed like most teens I see around town, able to hold her own to an extent but also portrayed as vulnerable in an appropriate manner. I mean, come on, what's more realistic? A woman about to be taken down by the enemy on her knees and afraid or screaming "BANZAI!" and round-housing the lot of them? She had inner strength which is actually pretty typical of a lot of women and to me that is not portrayed often enough in games.

My issue with women as frontline soldiers in games is the same as my issue with it in real life. I do not approve. I appreciate that there are real-life armed forces women who risk their lives on a daily basis but just because that is their career choice it does not mean I have to rubber-stamp it. Nor do they need my approval. I feel the same about female boxers, for goodness sake. I'm old fashioned like that.

I think that perhaps designers should spend less time looking at market research, what young males find sexy and what their bosses think will make money and take their inspiration from the women in their own lives like their mothers or wives - perhaps spend some time looking at how women from other cultures past and present made a pretty strong case for proper female characterization.

Women actually have the ability to contend with much - but NOT by screaming "sexism!", dressing like a whore and voting to keep men only for breeding purposes. The well-known quote by whoever the hell it was says, "behind every great man there is a greater woman" - whilst I don't necessarily agree with the quote in its literal sense, there is precedence for it if you look at tradition. Women were the backbone of the family, they kept everyone fed, clothed, educated. Looking as far back as ancient Rome, women pretty much did EVERYTHING whilst the men chatted the day away and looked important. We don't need this bizarre mentality that women ought to be seen as ballsy, slutty, brash and outspoken to be attractive in games - normal women will do the job just fine.

You will never be able to please everyone with how a female character looks because that's just life - we are all attracted to different things. But by making the PERSONALITY attractive (like that isn't spouted enough when talking about real-life attraction) and with GOOD character development that allows the female to be more than just a pair of jugs and bad attitude, I personally believe a decent female character can be produced.

There is a happy medium to be discovered for how to make a woman strong, sexy but also vulnerable and weak where it is appropriate - I am looking forward to when they finally find it.

 

[V]

Good answer.

And I agree, anyone calling themselves a feminist who believes a man is beneath a woman on principle is not a feminist anyway. They should look up the proper definition of the word instead of the pop definition or what it's become mistaken for, which is just another breed of bigotry, I think.

'Feminists' who don't want the actual equality or wants a hypocritical representation of it is just as bad as a real misogynist.

I do think one of the mistakes we keep making these days though is that if now society has empowered women to be independent, have careers and seek their own fortunes, (as well as generally being expected to work and support themselves and NOT be dependent or sandbaggers) that we still expect our representations of them (as in games) to revolve around men, or to exist for men. (Not too much still passes that Bechdel test, proving that women are still often shown only in their relation to men). Women have been liberated from revolving around men, so it's not unrealistic having games where females are the leads, not just wives or mothers or girlfriends... society's entertainment just has to realise that yet. I mean, I meet women who are the leads in their lives in real life every day, and so would men. I find it strange that in our 'fantasy representations' we're so 'behind' with the idea of women as leads.

 

[Chancey289]

I really find the entire thing a seriously outdated argument. ​

Male characters are just as overly sexualised as women, ​

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Not really. When you look at male video game protagonist they are usually very handsome or have these unreal amazingly toned bodies and it delivers more on the side of a male power fantasy. We have a lot of women in games however that are just reduced to eye candy. See? One's a compliment, the other really isn't.

I can see where this debate comes from just as much as I can see maybe some people out there are also too ready to get offended. It's an issue that does unfortunately exist. How Naughty Dog had to recently fight just to push Ellie to the front of The Last of Us cover tells you something. And it's freaking stupid.

 

[Angel]

I mean seriously at times when i see these complaints i just wanna scream SHUT THE SMURF UP & MAKE A GAME YOURSELF!

But why should gamers have to make their own games to enable them to play the sort of female characters that they want? Surely people whose job it is to MAKE games have a degree of responsibility to provide the consumer with what they want? I don't think I'm being at all unreasonable in my requests.

 

[V]

I do think that character creation really boosts interest in a game in some ways, whether a fighting game or RPG etc. It's a lot of work though to invest in a character creation system as say Bioware does, and then also give someone the option to NOT use it and go with a premade character they have also programmed as well. In that case I think developers always go with a blander approach to the given character's personality if they invest in a game that has an engine for creating your own (as in, you get to make a few choices of your own, have relationships, etc, but generally the interactions you're gonna have with other characters in that game are going to be made to be as widely applicable as possible because that's the slant they've taken in having such a variable character creation). Unless you could also choose to play as different character personality archetypes as well, which they could do but haven't really done yet(?) which would give a slightly different set of responses or questions in different situations.

In ME, Shep and Femshep are identical pretty much in response and behavior. I don't find that jarring, as I don't really have any personal expectations. I think if they did alter them to be different it'd cause more problems among the fanbase than if they didn't. But I guess my point is that if you make a character entirely customizable, the trade-in is that watered-down all-applicable personality that you're not going to find in games where the characters are fixed. But that too could change in future if games become the dominant form of entertainment. I'd imagine there will be this drive to make THE most customizable or realistic gaming experience possible, and a one-size-fits-all character won't be enough in that case I am guessing.

 

[Angel]

I don't think you're being unreasonable either but things won't change to satisfy the desires of the few.

Did you just not say You will never be able to please everyone with how a female character looks because that's just life - we are all attracted to different things.
So why not give gamers that tool & freedom of character creation ? The option to appease their own personal tastes.
I'm not saying every game has to have character creation, i'm saying alot more should include that freedom of choice.

Character creation is something I very much enjoy in games - I like to customise how my character looks, what he/she wears - everything. But my main issue is not so much the visual aspect of a female character but WHO they are, HOW they are represented in their dialogue and actions. I mean, people could call Kat out for dressing sexily, but at no stage does she appear to come across as an over-sexualized person in how she behaves and speaks. Character creation, as far as I know, only covers the external and physical aspects of a character. And that's only half the story. Game designers should be doing more than just giving the option to cover up in game. I know that many people use clothes to express themselves, but they should not define who you are as a person - the same should apply for both female AND male characters in games. Sure, if you want your men to wear Speedos and your women to don boilersuits then that's fine and dandy - who really cares? But as with a variety of costumes perhaps a more varied range of personality types and dialogue could be on offer too?

 

[darkslayer13]

I respectfully disagree with this entirely. Women can easily fit into the same situations as men, especially in gaming. Women can be strong or weak, the hero or the villain, intelligent or idiotic just like men. The only limitations for women in gaming are poorly written game scripts and people with small minded-views dictating their roles.

In worlds of fantasy as opposed to anything trying to 'emulate' the real world, like FPS war games or whatever, there is absolutely no argument where women shouldn't number the same as men, if not more. Example off the top of my head right now - FFIX, Alexandria soldiery, nearly all women but six or seven dudes. Didn't stick out or seem jarringly 'unrealistic' at all because it's a pure fantasy setting, anything goes. And sci-fi or "alternate universe Earth" could do the same too if it created a satisfactory premise for it, like say that in Y: The Last Man.

Not to mention didn't the U.S. just pass a bill allowing women in direct combat. Soon the 'realistic' games will be unrealistic.

i'm not saying women shouldn't have equal involvement in games. i generally prefer it when there are as many or more female characters than male ones but realistically speaking most games involve combat and most situations that involve combat involve significantly more men than women and for most of human history in most cultures the idea of women in combat didn't exist at all. i am not saying women can't be involved in that type of thing but realistically speaking they usually aren't. a fantasy setting can ignore that but not if they want the cultures in their setting to be grounded in reality.

also ( and i know i am going to be accused of being sexist for bringing this up but it is probably to late for that anyway) men are on average physically stronger and more suited for hitting each other with things. as weapons technology improves this becomes less significant but you are being dishonest with yourself if you deny that there are more men that are physically suited to combat than there are women physically suited to combat. this does not make men better than women but it does mean that there is a reason other than sexism that there are more men involved in combat than women.