NT vs Capcom: Female Characters

[Teal]

I bet every single one of you has heard the quote "Sex sells". No? Well, Japan has. Actually, I think they invented it first. Although the American gaming market isn't quite stellar, there's only one thing that it does slightly better than it's Japanese counterpart; female characters.

But, that's not what we're here to discuss. We don't want to wage a war between two countries, so we're gonna narrow down the female character issue to two developers, Ninja Theory, a videogame developer based in UK and Capcom, a japanese videogame developer. As you may know, both have worked in the famous Devil May Cry series, and I am interested to hear your opinion; which one of them has portrayed female characters better? Here's mine.

CAPCOM - As we know, Capcom is the original developer of the DMC franchise. They invented it and they went on to produce four critically and commercially successful installments (only commercially in the case of DMC2). But let's be honest, they didn't do well with female characters. It basically went like this; if one of the female characters didn't have huge breasts, didn't wear tight spandex suits with no buttons, they were just...there to progress the plot. And those who beared those qualities not often made offensive remarks and had the attitude of a whore. This became very apparent especially in DMC 4, where Kyrie, Nero's love interest and arguably the most boring character in the entire DMC universe is kidnapped and shows to be very weak and helpless. She's the 'just..there' character I mentioned earlier, whereas Trish/Gloria, the hot spandex girl with oversized breasts kicks demon ass everytime she steps in a room. Now, I am not trying to say that Capcom should have totally eradicated the sexual part of all the female characters that they introduced in the series; no, that's something that needs to be present, albeit in a more balanced way. They did the same with Lady too, and it was very unnerving for me as a fan to see Lady turn from that kick-ass girl in DMC3 to a half-naked sex symbol with very little screentime in DMC4.

Ninja Theory - Ninja Theory was more subtle about it. Sure, I was worried at the beginning too, seeing Dante implied to go into a threesome with two prostitutes and watching Lilith do her thing. But, they certainly fixed it up with Kat, an amazing character and probably one of my favorites. The appearance of Kat even made me think that the intro scene and Lilith's portrayal as an ugly bitch is done not for profit, but for story reasons. In my eyes, the intro scene is done to detail Dante's attitude; at first he is a reckless edgy kid who does whatever he wants with whoever he wants, however as the plot progresses he turns into a more of a responsible guy, even rejecting the advances of a stripper in the "Devil's Dalliance" level. Lilith is there to demonstrate how filthy and unlikable the demons in power are. Kat in the other hand, although human, manages to hold her own and aids Dante and Virgil several times, as noted by Dante in the end boss fight. Although it took a while for me to realize, I think that Kat is one of the best portrayals of women in the videogame industry, along with Elizabeth (Bioshock Infinite) and The Boss (Metal Gear Solid 3)

According to me, Ninja Theory wins this battle. What about you?!

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I wouldn't caall Kat the best female protaganist, but I will admit she's a step up in terms of character of female characters in the DMC series.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Thumbs up for the OP.

 

[Jak]

i totally agree, however, thats just the culture there. the whole sexual fantasy thing there is just as normal (if you wanna call it that) as the sexual images we have in america.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

CAPCOM - As we know, Capcom is the original developer of the DMC franchise. They invented it and they went on to produce four critically and commercially successful installments (only commercially in the case of DMC2). But let's be honest, they didn't do well with female characters. It basically went like this; if one of the female characters didn't have huge breasts, didn't wear tight spandex suits with no buttons, they were just...there to progress the plot. And those who beared those qualities not often made offensive remarks and had the attitude of a whore. This became very apparent especially in DMC 4, where Kyrie, Nero's love interest and arguably the most boring character in the entire DMC universe is kidnapped and shows to be very weak and helpless.

I suppose I don't view Kyrie the same way most others do. While I do understand where you're coming from about her not fighting back, not having much in the way of character development, etc. I will bring a few of my viewpoints in. Keep in mind, these are just my opinions on the matter, much the same as you have displayed yours.

I don't see Kyrie being who she is and the way she is as a bad thing; I love the characters of Lady and Trish as well, especially since they're not the "helpless female types". That being said, if Kyrie had been made a fighter just like that-wouldn't she have just been labelled a carbon copy of those two? No matter how they created her, someone would find a reason to complain.

Lack of character development and interaction is sadly some of DMC4's short-comings. I personally love the game and don't find these areas to be as bad as people have claimed them to be, but I agree that what little we do see of Kyrie does give the impression of the weak, helpless, "damsel in distress". That being said, you learn to read between the lines. No, she's not a fighter in the physical sense, but she held it together pretty well when she faced danger.

(Some of the issues with DMC4 mainly circulate around being low on time and funds when they hit certain stages in the games' development; if not for these factors, I believe DMC4 would have done so much better than it did-and yet, I still adore it, "warts and all", as they say).

Case in point: When the Scarecrows arrived outside of the Opera House, she immediately went to the aid of a child with no regard for her own safety. While being held captive by Sanctus, she didn't do any of the screaming/hysterical sobbing most damsels would fall prey to. There are other theories, as well; if they'd delved deeper into back stories, I'm sure they'd have shown something to the degree of Credo being such an overbearingly protective older brother that he didn't want his younger sister handling weapons, or some such nonsense. (Stupid given everything they've dealt with, I know).

As to the sexual objectifications of Trish and Lady; I partly agree. Lady's boost in cleavage could actually be reasoned as her having reached maturity. Remember, in DMC3, she was a kid. By DMC4, she's much older. I agree, it would have been nice to see more of her in action. Onto Trish, yes, she most certainly was sexualized, but she wasn't shown as weak; she was still powerful, intelligent, and a capable fighter. Again, we saw little of her. In the cases of both characters, this can be explained away, as DMC4 was more about putting Nero in the spotlight than anyone else (think, even Dante was a supporting cast member, this time around).

Anyway, that's my input on the matter. I can't really say much about Kat, one way or another.


She's the 'just..there' character I mentioned earlier, whereas Trish/Gloria, the hot spandex girl with oversized breasts kicks demon ass everytime she steps in a room. Now, I am not trying to say that Capcom should have totally eradicated the sexual part of all the female characters that they introduced in the series; no, that's something that needs to be present, albeit in a more balanced way. They did the same with Lady too, and it was very unnerving for me as a fan to see Lady turn from that kick-ass girl in DMC3 to a half-naked sex symbol with very little screentime in DMC4.

 

[berto]

Here I thought that we were going to discuss all of their females in general.

Capcom women are bad asses, from RE to NP03. Big racks aren't universal, so lets not claim they are and that is the only staple. One example of a Capcom female is Clair Redfield, who was horribly misrepresented in the films. As opposed to been a stern bad ass no-****-taking woman from the movie Clair is, for lack of a better term, a sweetheart; she's nice, she is rather gentle, and she is very kind, it just so happens that she knows how to kick ass like no ones business. You then have Ada, who might not know that her wardrobe is highly inappropriate but she just happens to be a tremendous ass kicker, too. Capcom's female cast is full of fighter and a few others. Yes, Capcom's women might not be the most profound of characters in the history of gaming, but they serve their causes well and drive with solid personalities and for what they do they do it well. besides, does every woman have to be a pillar of characterization? Not everything has to be king Lear, you know.

Ninja Theory does seem to have a thing for the red heads, as to why only one of them has freckles is beyond me. The women here are more intentionally 'strong.' There is a very focused drive to portray the women in these games as strong women, not complex, or fascinating, 'strong,' that is the word they had in their heads when they wrote these women. It's very clear that that is the motto they seem to have for what they think their women should be like. It's almost as thought some one mentioned to them that there are no strong women in games and took it upon themselves to correct it or to take advantage of that gap in the gaming spectrum. The women aren't particularly complicated here, ether, but they serve their purpose just as well. These women aren't exactly Shakespeare ether, but I get the impression that they are trying to be and I don't know if that is as good a thing as it sounds, it removes a certain 'honesty' from you're characters when you purposefully try to make them deep rather than naturally deepening them with a bit of thought.

If you want to talk about NT vs. Capcom's rendition of women in DMC I give it to Capcom, the women in DmC are not as intricate or profound as you make them out to be, they are cliches and stock and even if the women in DMC are not Desdemona, Jane Eyre or Catherine Earnshaw they are at least more memorable and if nothing else at least there is variety.

If we are talking about the women in each company's catalog then that, again, goes to capcom on the fact that there is variety.

Although it took a while for me to realize, I think that Kat is one of the best portrayals of women in the videogame industry, along with Elizabeth (Bioshock Infinite) and The Boss (Metal Gear Solid 3)

I really don't agree with this. I don't find much dept to this character at all, nor much else that would qualify as redeeming. She is flat and rather uninteresting. In terms of female portrayal she barely ranks above Kyrie.

 

[Britt690]

I vote for Capcom. Lilith and Kat were moreso there to move the story along/ just aides to me whereas the women of the original series can stand alone on their own (save for Kyrie). I do congratulate both companies on making the women more than just damsels (again, save for Kyrie). Then again, I guess Kyrie ****ed me off because all she did was whimper and whine throughout the whole damn thing. When you are around someone with a bit of spunk to them, it's more than possible to pick up a few of their habits. I expected her to to show anger/an angry face, roll her eyes, glare...do something other than shrink in on herself. Yes, she selflessly risked her life to save that child in the beginning but that was forgettable when she popped up the other times.

Kat...I'm not really sure about her. I guess I expected too much out of her since...she was kinda treated as a lapdog all throughout in DmC. And then her personality was kinda on the meek side so she flew over my head as a whole. I like to get a feel for a character and to see their traits and Kat's...it wasn't demure, then it wasn't cool and collected to me, like she stayed with a constant level of emotion through out the entire game. I do give her props for holding out for the abuse she went through when she was captured, but even then I expected her to raise some Hell. I don't expect her to have the same fire or spunk that Lady, Trish, or Lucia has in the physical sense, but I wanted more ranges of feelings from her.

Lilith...was there, but she had more of a presence than Kat, she was the only person I liked in the game. She was the queen b*tch and her personality really fit her role. Although if Lilith is a demon, Mundus's main chick, shouldn't she have like...you know what, nevermind. I liked her character though and she was quite befitting for the role she played.

Trish and Lady were quite the a**kickers in their respective initial appearances and somewhere along the lines something went wrong with DMC 4. In DMC3, Lady had her own story to tell with the intent to stop her father at all costs and she wasn't too keen to pay much attention to Dante/didn't need his help often. She was as independent as they come and that was a plus for me to see that. And Trish...there's not much to go on with her character, I'll be honest (with the 3 games and the anime) but she always had her own agenda/wanted to do stuff on her own without telling anyone. Their outfits in DMC4 wouldn't be that bad if their breasts weren't bouncing like overblown balloons. Trish's leather corset outfit didn't bother me but I HATE Lady's outfit in DMC 4 with a passion. I don't know why, but she was reduced to fan service material. If someone came in not knowing who these women were and their background, they would probably be treated as only such. In the game Trish kinda did nothing either and just popped up randomly in the game. Capcom likes to showcase her as Dante's sidekick at times, but I rarely see it. They showed bits and pieces in the anime, but DMC4...........??????????

I won't even speak about Gloria. I have so many quips about that woman from various standpoints and how Capcom did the Trish doppelganger and kinda just...again, nevermind.

I didn't have too many quips about Lucia (easy gameplay and storyline aside) and I thought she was okay from all sides. And I praise Capcom for her outfit. I was playing games where outfits on girls were mind-boggling to wear. There are still outfits today like that but it was nice to see them take a break from the "naked" format.

Patty was okay too, once she stopped whining and screeching her voice left and right, but since she was so young, it's understandable.

There's no right/perfect way to create a female character because they come in so many colors, shapes and sizes and personalities and again I praise both companies for making characters that largely break away from the damsel in distress/ socially inept roles, but I believe Capcom has the stronger grip in that area. Going outside of DMC, with women from games like Resident Evil (with Claire and Sheva), PN03 (Vanessa didn't take sh*t from anyone), Onumuha, Remember Me, etc and the attitude these women project, I think Capcom will continue to have a heads up in that department. It may change and NT might surpass them, but Capcom gets the vote.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

She is flat

Hey now! I thought we weren't gonna bring up women's chests here?

/trollface

 

[Demi-fiend]

They really need to bring the trollface smiley back.

 

[Teal]

Here I thought that we were going to discuss all of their females in general.

Capcom women are bad asses, from RE to NP03.

If you want to talk about NT vs. Capcom's rendition of women in DMC I give it to Capcom, the women in DmC are not as intricate or profound as you make them out to be, they are cliches and stock and even if the women in DMC are not Desdemona, Jane Eyre or Catherine Earnshaw they are at least more memorable and if nothing else at least there is variety.

I really don't agree with this. I don't find much dept to this character at all, nor much else that would qualify as redeeming. She is flat and rather uninteresting. In terms of female portrayal she barely ranks above Kyrie.

Let's not get into that. Not much a fan of Capcom and it's games (besides DMC). They have the tendency to f-ck things up right at the time when it's fans are overhyped, so I am not really informed much into how Capcom has treated women in their other games

Yes, DMC is what I want to talk about. I guess I did make the DmC women a little bit more than they really are, but you can't (you actually can) deny that they are far better then how Capcom portrays them. I respectfully disagree with you at the variety part; by the time DMC came out, there was no variety. I bet if we started calling both Trish and Lady in one same name, nobody would have even noticed they are different. While as Kyrie was there to play the damsel in distress, which has been done since a while now and it has become very offensive for women around the world.

Maybe I underrated Capcom a little bit too much. Lucia, DMC1 Trish and DMC3 Lady were decent videogame characters. Lucia was too shallow, but she was still a decent one nevertheless.

I agree with you that Kat lacks of depth, but that came because she didn't have enough screentime...and even though she didn't, they still managed to make her somewhat compelling. I mentioned it took me a while to realize how good of a character Kat is, and although one may argue it is unfair to place her among Elizabeth and The Boss (which had around 2 hours of screentime), I argue that she deserves it.

At first she seems like the innocent cliched emo Bella-like girl, but during the conversation with Dante in the car when she says "I killed the bastard!" (or something along the lines) referring to her stepfather, I understood that she was a tough bone.

Nonetheless, I can see where you're coming from. She is cliche, but in my eyes she is a good kind of cliche.

Then again that's just my opinion.

 

[berto]

Hey now! I thought we weren't gonna bring up women's chests here?

/trollface

what can i say, i have pulse and i like women, it comes with the territory.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

I have a thing for the accent

All jokes aside, it is more of Maya Fey that wins this for Capcom for me. This character alone bested Luna in the competition for being my waifu.
I don't know why, she is around my age, and despite not being, 'sexy' and wearing non-revealing clothes, she has that certain charm to her in her personality, that fun loving character that wouldn't mind going to see a Stallone-movie for a date

 

[The Final Offer]

We can talk about any character in the Capcom universe. You just gotta know everything about the character in order for us to have an intelligent conversation about him/her.

You guys speak on Kat and yet none of you mention her awesome feats from the comic. It's quite amusing to see non-fleshed out characters make the list above her. I'll stay in DMC universes on this one.

Kyrie made the situation worse.
Mary made the situation worse.
Trish made the situation worse.
Lucia made the situation better.
Kat made the situation better.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think usually you can find a character's worth in what would happen to the narrative if they were absent from it (like...just on vacation, can't be assed to show up for the situation). If the situation improves with their absence, they are unfortunately part of problem.

Like if Lady had not been running around Temen-ni-gru trying to kill her father, he never would have had the blood of a priestess in order to complete the tower's ritual.

 

[Teal]

I didn't read any of the comics, but I heard that The Chronicles of Vergil shed light into some very important details in Kat's and Vergil's relationship.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I didn't read any of the comics, but I heard that The Chronicles of Vergil shed light into some very important details in Kat's and Vergil's relationship.

It did, was quite interesting. Unfortunately, it was just horribly, horribly, horribly paced T_T

I like to regard Chronicles of Vergil as a cliffnotes of what happened before DmC :tongue:

 

[berto]

Kyrie made the situation worse.
Mary made the situation worse.
Trish made the situation worse.
Lucia made the situation better.
Kat made the situation better.

Trish and Lucia were catalysts, if they didn't appear there would be not adventure to be had. Kyrie didn't really make it worse, in my opinion, it was pretty bad to begin with and Nero was not going to win the fight where she was been held hostage, anyway, nor did her presence keep Nero from winning the last fight, her presence wouldn't really affect the outcome of the fight, which is kinda worse for the cause since she could've been on vacation for all intents and purposes and nothing would've been significantly different.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

I think usually you can find a character's worth in what would happen to the narrative if they were absent from it (like...just on vacation, can't be assed to show up for the situation). If the situation improves with their absence, they are unfortunately part of problem.

Like if Lady had not been running around Temen-ni-gru trying to kill her father, he never would have had the blood of a priestess in order to complete the tower's ritual.

Yeah, but you have to figure; her being there was justified. Her father killed her mother-can anyone really (and I mean really, put yourself in her shoes) blame her for going on the quest that she did? Of course she didn't know how she'd impact the sequence of events, and like the old adage says, "Things are going to get worse before they get better."

Think of it this way; because she was there, she brought out some of the best in Dante, made him really care about someone and something else besides his own problems.

That's my take on it, anyway. *Shrug*

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Personally I don't consider any of the female characters as "great" female characters. only so few from DMC are what I'd call great female characters even in what they were designed to do. NT isn't gonna win any points either all things considering.

CAPCOM's DMC

Trish was nothing but spandex on human skin whose just there to remind Dante of his mother and bring up his unresolved issues with his mother. Other then that she serves no real purpose in the story. Maybe as Dante's romantic love intrest (incest much), but beyond that Trish is...just there to be the series "sex idol". (which she really isn't in my opinion)

Lady had actual purpose in not only wanting to fufill revenge on her father, but to also be someone Dante can relate to when it comes to losing family. but after DMC3, her existence was whored out for the horny teenage fans of the series. And just because she's got bigger boobs does not mean a damn thing if the character hasn't blossomed as much as her breast have. Lady had potential to be great, but was nothing but another sex item with nothing to offer but tits and ass shots.

Lucia was probably the last strong female character I'll ever see in DMC. She dressed modest enough, she had an actual reason to be in the story and she was strong, but she also had deeper emotions from figuring out that she wasn't who she thought she was and fighting her creator once and for all. Despite this, she was still written pretty badly and her voice actor wasn't very good.

Kyrie is the worst offender. The reason I didn't like Kyrie WAS NOT because she couldn't fight or defend herself. To me, a female character doesn't need to be a kick ass girl or a femme fetal to be a good female character. She must have something dynamic about her character, something that makes her stand out among the others, and gives me a reason to want to actually care about her well being. Kyrie has none of this. When she was captured, I actually would have WANTED her to scream out in fear when she was first seen imprisoned in the savior's core. It would have made her character more real and more raw. All her shielding has been broken and she truly calls out to a hero to save her from her mortal danger. It certainly would have made Nero calling out to her more believable instead of him crying like a little bitch.

There's also Patty. Now Patty may be annoying and spoiled at times, but she actually brought some fresh air in the whole "All our women are hot as f*ck" cesspool DMC has. She was small, cute, and modest. She had attitude that made her stand out from the other female characters. (Trish was the cool type, Lady was the bitch type, and Lucia was the serious type) Not only that, but she went above and beyond to get to Dante and get him out of the underworld all with a small pendant containing a powerful demon warding tear around her neck. That's bravery and that, to me, is what made Patty so unique in terms of female characters for me.

NINJA THEORY'S DmC

Kat is, for the most part, cute...and that's about it. Kat does help Dante out on more then one occasion and I like the fact that even though she's human, she's still able to really help Dante out and get her hands dirty. Quite like Patty who went to the demon world to save Dante. However her character isn't what I'd call "great female character" writing. When you boil down to it, Kat is pretty dull. Every now and then, she has her moments of speaking her own mind and adding her own opinions into things and can at least smile every now and then, but in the end, she really was just as Vergil said; she was useful. What Dante says is true about saving him from being an asshole, but its even as Tameen said; Kat is a MEANS for Dante to be more human. As in, that's what her role is in the game. She didn't really show a bit of a sarcastic side, she didn't really have much of a believable personality, but that's rather subjective because people like Kat DO exist and act like her to a T. However my point still stands that she could've been better.

Lilith was just a gold digging whore. That's it. She was just there to suck Mundus's demon nob and that's all. However she also had another role to play for Dante's growth. Lilith was the reason Dante realized that not all demons are evil. Dante realized that when boiled down, Lilith was harmless and only had power through Mundus's Spawn. Without it, she was nothing but a harmless demon woman with plastic surgery. But Lilith herslef wasn't anything special. She was just like Lady in a way; a cold heartless bitch who was only after her man (Mundus/Dante) for his money. But like I said; "IN. A. WAY" they're alike.

If I had to compare all of Capcom's women to all of Ninja Theory's women, I really couldn't pick a winner because both aren't gonna win a single prize in "best female lead" category. Both have their ups and downs when it comes to female characterization, but in my honest opinion, if I had to really choose, I'd lean more towards Ninja Theory, because while some argue that their female characterization is a bit weak, short shorts and a half opened zipper is a lot better then a wedgie one piece bikini and combat boots.
View attachment 945

 

[The Final Offer]

Vergil needed Kat to find Dante. Kat's powers could also tap into demon organisms feeding her information that would grant the advantage over the demons. Kat acts as a rift between worlds. Kat killed a demon with no Vergil or Dante. Kat went into Astral form and scouted Mundus's tower, being useful even in captivity. Kat has been tortured several times for the sake of mankind.

Not once was she useless. Even Vergil called her useful.

BOOM. Best female companion ever.