No Lock-On Is Actually Better Than Outdated Lock-On

[Gbraga]

I like Bay's (Bayleef's, haha) soft lock-on and auto lock-on. What I didn't like is the fact that it felt like there were too many moves you could do. The original DMC series (mostly DMC3-4) had it right with quality over quantity in moves; except for DMC3's Vergil gimped moveset in my opinion, and DMC4's enemies being made for Nero more than Dante and it felt like Dante was disadvantaged at times.

Bay's moveset was more or less in my opinion, mash buttons/remember some combos, get Wicked Weaves, win. Also, dodge/perfect block-dodge-thing for Witch Time. Ninja Gaiden sort of did this too except it had no lock-on whatsoever unless you're using projectiles.

DmC on the other hand seems to suffer from too little moves. While they may be efficient, it gives us, the players, too little options. God of War had this too right? I don't remember since I've only played III and that was about a year ago.

Something that always bugs me (doesn't make the game worse, but I don't understand) is why they always advertised the game as air-combat focused, and yet give us so few air moves compared to the ground ones, and also you get a lot more style points for basic ground combos.

The style meter is just broken though so you can disconsider the last point.

And yeah, Bayo's combat, although great and one of the best ever made, is not in the same level as DMC 3 and 4, unfortunately. The game overall is fantastic though, and I think it's a better game than DMC4, even though the combat itself is not quite there.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

Games like Zone Of The Enders and Dark Cloud 2 were the only ones that did lock-on right.

That reminds me, I'm on my 5th-7th playthrough of Dark Cloud 2 and have never beaten it. I love the game to death, but I can never bring myself to actually finish it. Closest I got was the volcano place.

And don't forget The Legend of Zelda, the father of lock-on with Z-Targeting.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

Something that always bugs me (doesn't make the game worse, but I don't understand) is why they always advertised the game as air-combat focused, and yet give us so few air moves compared to the ground ones, and also you get a lot more style points for basic ground combos.

The style meter is just broken though so you can disconsider the last point.

And yeah, Bayo's combat, although great and one of the best ever made, is not in the same level as DMC 3 and 4, unfortunately. The game overall is fantastic though, and I think it's a better game than DMC4, even though the combat itself is not quite there.

It was advertised as an air-combat focused game? Really? I thought it was advertised as the very raunchy, cheeky, over-the-top, fast action, play as Sarah Palin game.:lol:

Yeah, I did notice that, there aren't a lot of air combo options. Usually you end up dropping yourself and the enemy(ies) to the ground. Jump cancel is in the game with a cool enemy step (with gun weapons, I don't know about other weapons, Bay stomps and fires when enemy stepping). Otherwise, the game is really fun, but the innuendos are annoying in my opinion. Style meter? Not much, but a report card that I don't understand.

 

[LeoXCV]

Unfortunately, Bayonetta also suffered from outdated "survival horror" lock-on, where you must keep the button held down for the lock to be maintained and Bayonetta walked as slow as ****.

Games like Zone Of The Enders and Dark Cloud 2 were the only ones that did lock-on right.

I don't see the point in your gripe with the slow movement. Side stepping at the same speed (Or close to) as running would just look stupid as hell, and making it so you didn't hold your guns out in front and instead just ran normally in the direction you choose would make the entire reason for a hard lock-on just vanish. The reason the fast moving hard lock-on works in ZotE and Dark Cloud 2 is because it fits both the style of the game and the actual gameplay.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

I don't see the point in your gripe with the slow movement. Side stepping at the same speed (Or close to) as running would just look stupid as hell, and making it so you didn't hold your guns out in front and instead just ran normally in the direction you choose would make the entire reason for a hard lock-on just vanish. The reason the fast moving hard lock-on works in ZotE and Dark Cloud 2 is because it fits both the style of the game and the actual gameplay.

Thinking on that. What about a medium lock-on. Hold the lock-on button for hard lock. Tap to soft lock-on. So by soft locking you have greater mobility, but lose the ability to weave/sidestep/bob. With hard lock, you lose mobility for sidestep/weave/bob.

Soft lock could just have Dante flipping around like Bayonetta. Generic rolling. Or . . . SHOOTDODGE!

 

[Gbraga]

It was advertised as an air-combat focused game? Really? I thought it was advertised as the very raunchy, cheeky, over-the-top, fast action, play as Sarah Palin game.:lol:

Yeah, I did notice that, there aren't a lot of air combo options. Usually you end up dropping yourself and the enemy(ies) to the ground. Jump cancel is in the game with a cool enemy step (with gun weapons, I don't know about other weapons, Bay stomps and fires when enemy stepping). Otherwise, the game is really fun, but the innuendos are annoying in my opinion. Style meter? Not much, but a report card that I don't understand.

I was talking about DmC actually! Bayo's also more ground focused, but mechanics such as dodge offset make it clear that the game's not as air focused as previous entries, but the air combat is still SICK <3

 

[MultiBro]

I was talking about DmC actually! Bayo's also more ground focused, but mechanics such as dodge offset make it clear that the game's not as air focused as previous entries, but the air combat is still SICK <3

I found the combat in Bayonetta alot more "floaty" compared to DMC3/4 but it was done well on its own.

God, I love Bayonetta.

 

[Railazel]

Yeah, I did notice that, there aren't a lot of air combo options.

Trust me, there's plenty.

 

[Goldsickle]

I think you're not playing the games right, to be quite honest.

The game didn't implement the lock-on right.

You're not supposed to walk your way to the enemy in DMC or Bayo, dude.

Correction: The game shouldn't have forced characters to walk during lock-on.
I'd like to pick my targets in advance and then focus on nothing but the targeted enemy.

Unfortunately, the slowed down movement during lock-on discourages me from maintaining lock-on until I'm able to strike the enemy.

As I mentioned again, this was done right in other games, like Metal Gear Rising.
Raiden can maintain lock-on without the need to hold down a button and he doesn't lose speed.
He can keep running around during lock-on.
Either DMC changes it's lock-on to something like this or not implement lock-on at all.

The slower movement during lock-on also makes a difference during fights, allows you to reposition yourself without running around.

I can "reposition" myself without the need for the game to forcefully slow me down, thank you.

Once you get used to style switching in DMC4,

The 'Style-swap' system was just a clutter build-up.
It was more like some makeshift method of regulating Dante's large, large arsenal of moves.

The Angel/Devil system actually works best for muscle memory and can potentially increase the amount of moves than what the older mechanics can do.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

I was talking about DmC actually! Bayo's also more ground focused, but mechanics such as dodge offset make it clear that the game's not as air focused as previous entries, but the air combat is still SICK <3

Oh, I thought you were talking about Bayonetta. The original DMC games didn't have that much with air combos. Yet with pros, air combat became more of a focus. I can still remember Brea's "Trick-Sword-Trick-Sword" times infinity. But I don't really know. In many games, hack n' slash or otherwise, I stick to the ground more than the air. Why, for one, I am not and nor do I claim to be good at any games and for the life of me and my buddies I cannot pilot air vehicles. Everything else on the ground, I can do fine. Underwater, okay, but I'll probably avoid water more as graphics become more realistic; I have an irrational fear of fish.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

Trust me, there's plenty.

Hey, coming from a fairly decent player at hack n' slash games, air combo option for me may be a lot, but not using or knowing how to use them effectively becomes a moot point. DMC games don't have a lot of air moves, but that doesn't stop air combat from being a focus.

 

[Goldsickle]

I don't see the point in your gripe with the slow movement. Side stepping at the same speed (Or close to) as running would just look stupid as hell,

Who's talking about side-stepping at running speed?
As seen in games like Metal Gear Rising, Raiden maintains a lock-on while running in one direction.

and making it so you didn't hold your guns out in front and instead just ran normally in the direction you choose would make the entire reason for a hard lock-on just vanish.

The problem is that this isn't a Resident Evil game anymore.
The lock-on does not need to be a "draw gun" button.

Dante could maintain a lock-on without actually aiming his guns at the enemy (like Vergil in DMC3).

The reason the fast moving hard lock-on works in ZotE and Dark Cloud 2 is because it fits both the style of the game and the actual gameplay.

And why wouldn't it fit the style of DMC?
DMC is a fast-paced action game, not a hallway-crawling "survival horror" game.

 

[Railazel]

Hey, coming from a fairly decent player at hack n' slash games, air combo option for me may be a lot, but not using or knowing how to use them effectively becomes a moot point. DMC games don't have a lot of air moves, but that doesn't stop air combat from being a focus.

I'm confused at what you're saying here.

 

[Ether0]

I actually dont think the auto-lock is that big of a deal. It was weird and annoying at first just because i'm so used to hard lock one in a dmc game but by eventually it feels just fine to me. I hope they never put hard lock on into these games. It gives it a different feeling and changes the flow of combat into something more organic.

Old dmc games were about targeting a single foe and doing crazy cool stuff until they dies. This dmc is about doing crazy cool stuff with a big crowd of enemies. I don't think it's bad just different. I get the argument that lock on also allowed for more combo options but they could have just as many combos in this game with implementing more pause combos and maybe or two button combos

 

[Shin Muramasa]

I'm confused at what you're saying here.

I'm saying that there isn't a 50/50 amount of air and ground moves.

 

[EvilX-81]

I'm half-half on the lockon issue; on one hand it's good to be able to focus on dealing damage to one enemy or keeping them in sight (you hear that Bayonetta? Keeping the enemy in SIGHT, not letting them wander off camera to attack me from a blindside!) along with making ->-> moves more properly targetable. On the otherhand, imagine having to pick through a group of 11 or so locked on enemies. Buh.

I'm a little more concerned that there were no moves mapped to the launcher button or no <-->, ->->, or 360 midair moves. They could have packed on more attacks if they wanted I think.

 

[LeoXCV]

Who's talking about side-stepping at running speed?
As seen in games like Metal Gear Rising, Raiden maintains a lock-on while running in one direction.

No one, it's an extra point I've decided to make in the argument. Also MGR has no dodge button correct? I believe people were quite annoyed that it didn't have a dodge from what I remember, so MGR could have probably benefited from having a strafe run rather than free running no matter what. Though I haven't looked up much MGR so I could be wrong.

The problem is that this isn't a Resident Evil game anymore.
The lock-on does not need to be a "draw gun" button.

Dante could maintain a lock-on without actually aiming his guns at the enemy (like Vergil in DMC3).

That's just opinion about looks. I prefer Vergil's strafing as well, but Dante wouldn't really suit that kind of strafing imo.

And why wouldn't it fit the style of DMC?
DMC is a fast-paced action game, not a hallway-crawling "survival horror" game.

That's it's genre not it's style, there is a difference.

 

[Ether0]

I'm half-half on the lockon issue; on one hand it's good to be able to focus on dealing damage to one enemy or keeping them in sight (you hear that Bayonetta? Keeping the enemy in SIGHT, not letting them wander off camera to attack me from a blindside!) along with making ->-> moves more properly targetable. On the otherhand, imagine having to pick through a group of 11 or so locked on enemies. Buh.

I'm a little more concerned that there were no moves mapped to the launcher button or no <-->, ->->, or 360 midair moves. They could have packed on more attacks if they wanted I think.

Your right, I wish that did do that and maybe gave every weapon at least two aerial and ground pause combos instead of one. I think they refrained from that because they didn't want to overload people too much. Not saying I like that but I can understand why that might be the case

 

[MultiBro]

No one, it's an extra point I've decided to make in the argument. Also MGR has no dodge button correct? I believe people were quite annoyed that it didn't have a dodge from what I remember, so MGR could have probably benefited from having a strafe run rather than free running no matter what. Though I haven't looked up much MGR so I could be wrong.

Actually, since the game doesn't tell you, it isn't surprising that people doesn't know that there is in fact a dodge mechanic in MGR.

What you have to do is to press both Square and X button while holding the way you want to dodge and Raiden will then dodge and do a quick slash.

 

[Ether0]

Actually, since the game doesn't tell you, it isn't surprising that people doesn't know that there is in fact a dodge mechanic in MGR.

What you have to do is to press both Square and X button while holding the way you want to dodge and Raiden will then dodge and do a quick slash.

hmmmm that's interesting, cant wait to play the demo to see that in action because three inputs for a dodge seems kind of iffy to me personally. Then again I don't know how important it is in that game.