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Misogyny and The Devil May Cry

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Dante Redgrave

Son of Sparda

Well, I was pointing out the negative 'sexy' uses of those characters in those games. in DMC4, Lady is there for nothing but fanservice with tiny hot shorts and practically falling out of her top, and Trish, in DMC1, was backstabbing until Dante made her rethink what her existance was. Kyrie...the less said the better...
now LUCIA, while designed to be eye candy and having a HORRIBLE actress behind her voice, was a VERY good example of a strong female character, and it was only the psychological damage of realizing she was an artifical demon, not her gender, that left her vulnerable to capture. She did things on her own, was very much Dante''s equal in story focus...if not more so...and had a strong resolutsion of her arc on her own.
DMC3's rendition of Lady was also a perfectly good example of a strong female character. The only reason she could not keep up on Dante and Vergil's terms is the same reason Kat hunkered down to weather the fight bwetween the brothers in DmC; she's only human, not a supernaturally powered Hybrid. That's why her "evolution" in DMC4 was such an insult; she came off as lazy, moneygrubbing, and really...looked more like she worked as a strip club than a successful demon hunter. It's not so much the "sexy outfit", its the fact she did NOTHING in DMC4 and essentially was eye candy and that was it.
And then there's Gloria...yeah, I'm leaving that one alone.

So, my point. Please don't insert words inbetween what i said or twist my words for your own attempts to demean what I am saying. Could Kat have shown some better examples of her strength? Yeah, for sure...but she was hardly a "sexist portrayal" that the OP claimed. For that matter, as I said, classic has some far worse offense on it's record, but I still enjoy Classic DMC.

And FYI, Bayo is a horrible example of "strong female". She's a walking fetish wet dream, sexualized to the point of unintended self-PARODY.
 

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Personally with me, I love me a strong woman who can speak for herself and is strong as well. One of the reasons for a novel I'm making having a strong female character who can handle just as much as the male protagonist.

Kat is strong as far as normal human young adults can be. She can't deflect bullets or defy gravity not because she's a woman, but because she's human.

You should be looking more to DMC4 in this discussion.
 

Lionheart

Solid Ocelot
I think the problem here is confusing the inherently sexist standards of society with active misogyny.

About basically your entire comment (including some of my random monologue):
I don't know, I find it fairly logical that games usually feature a male protagonist. The gaming demographic consists of mostly males. Aside from that, I don't think women take that much offense to games with male protagonists, while men would, if the roles were reversed. I know I don't play video games to identify myself with the character I'm playing. That's often the whole point of games; to play a role you don't play in real life. To play out a fantasy, not something realistic. I don't have problems with playing as a female character. Hell, in Mass Effect, I play as female Shepard almost every time.

I would say that the games are pretty unfair to women, especially when you look at DMC4. I don't know what happened to Lady, or why Trish doesn't play a role and why Kyrie is such a flat character waiting for the prince to slay the dragon. However, you could also say it's the games that make women look overly badass and such that are truly misogynistic; it could have an artificial air about it. It depends on your point of view. I will say that Lady in DMC3 was a good character, and no doubt the one from Heavenly Sword is, too. Jade Empire characters were equal to men, at least, the protagonists were, I think. I'd be okay with it if they released a game that allows you to play as both a woman and a man. Heck, those games are already out there, thankfully. Ugh, it's a difficult subject. Not sure what to say about it.
 

DreadnoughtDT

God of Hyperdeath
Premium
Supporter 2014
My wide-hipped, tit-bearing, leather-wearing, game-cliched visage finds this thread to be a little ridiculous. Okay, a lot so. Why can't we just play games for fun? If we start looking for sexism, we'll just find it everywhere and life is too short to worry about this kind of stuff.

Exactly what I tried to say... I mean hell, the guys in my avatar? They're pretty damn androgynous. They've got wide hips and thick, feminine rears, but they've got muscles too, and are pretty well-endowed. Would you say that's sexist to men? No, but as soon as you give women even a hint of a curve, it's sexist.
 

Rayl

Pain and pleasure... I've got it all.
The reason why Lady is acceptable, is because it's made abundantly clear that she can't go any further then she does (which is a damn long way) is because she's HUMAN and not because she's female. You could potentially make that argument for Kat, she opted to help Vergil and Dante through her already existing talents instead of trying to develop any sort of fighting ability.

Does that make her the typical damsel in distress? By extension, sure it does. But that role could have easily have been filled by anybody but the reason Kat loses the right to having somebody argue for her is because her role is "Magic girl" and "Morality Pet" for Dante so he can come to attempt to give a damn about humans.
 

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Well, I was pointing out the negative 'sexy' uses of those characters in those games. in DMC4, Lady is there for nothing but fanservice with tiny hot shorts and practically falling out of her top, and Trish, in DMC1, was backstabbing until Dante made her rethink what her existance was. Kyrie...the less said the better...

Aw, I liked Kyrie.

now LUCIA, while designed to be eye candy and having a HORRIBLE actress behind her voice, was a VERY good example of a strong female character, and it was only the psychological damage of realizing she was an artifical demon, not her gender, that left her vulnerable to capture. She did things on her own, was very much Dante''s equal in story focus...if not more so...and had a strong resolutsion of her arc on her own.

That's what I liked about Lucia. She was a strong female character who didn't need to wear over sexualized clothing to be hot. She was hot by her actions and her how she handled herself. Though voice could have been better.

DMC3's rendition of Lady was also a perfectly good example of a strong female character. The only reason she could not keep up on Dante and Vergil's terms is the same reason Kat hunkered down to weather the fight bwetween the brothers in DmC; she's only human, not a supernaturally powered Hybrid.

This. Lady was my most favorite DMC female character after playing DMC3. She was tough, badass, and ready to take on anything. Plus...I'm a bit of a sucker for the school girl look...don't judge me:blush:

That's why her "evolution" in DMC4 was such an insult; she came off as lazy, moneygrubbing, and really...looked more like she worked as a strip club than a successful demon hunter. It's not so much the "sexy outfit", its the fact she did NOTHING in DMC4 and essentially was eye candy and that was it.

Yes! I hated seeing my favorite female character be reduced to some pimp in over sexualized clothes. I would expect that from a hot anime character who's for eye candy (which I wouldn't mind), but for a great character like Lady seems...off.

And then there's Gloria...yeah, I'm leaving that one alone.

It explains itself.

So, my point. Please don't insert words inbetween what i said or twist my words for your own attempts to demean what I am saying. Could Kat have shown some better examples of her strength? Yeah, for sure...but she was hardly a "sexist portrayal" that the OP claimed. For that matter, as I said, classic has some far worse offense on it's record, but I still enjoy Classic DMC.

And FYI, Bayo is a horrible example of "strong female". She's a walking fetish wet dream, sexualized to the point of unintended self-PARODY.
3535mu.jpg
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
I'm assuming this is how the OP sees all of DmC >_< Kinda worrying really...
lool_zps5f942194.png

And Vergil is probably an internet pervert spying on webcams because women are only good when taking off clothes....
ljol_zps38a53032.jpg

And according to the OP, Dante 'assualts' Kat when he stepps out of his door naked....:blink: The guy probably didn't even know he was doing it. He was really hung over.:p
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
Glad to see you're once again twisting people;s words and ignoring the blatent truth in the statment, Macabre, along with "I make what you say become something it's totally not!" rhetoric.

Kat's potrayed in a much more even light than, say, Kyrie(helpless Damsel) or Lady in DMC4(trashily dressed money monger who has Dante do her work for her)...or Trish in DMC1(backstabbing Femme Fatale). I'd say classic DMC is worse on the portray of woman, since at least DmC acknowledge that the twins would have been BONED without Kat. in classic, Dante is actually hindered half the time by them

I'm just saying that when someone has some legitimate critique for DmC, your first step is usually to point at the old games and say that they had bad elements, as if that justifies what NT has done. Nobody comes to these discussions intending to ignore all the flaws of the old games, and nobody wanted DmC to continue any negative trends that the Classic games had. The purpose of this reboot was to reinvent the series in such a way which preserved it's best elements and introduce new ones to invigorate the franchise and beguile new players, not the inverse.

It's supposed to show how much of a state his life is, how empty he is. Dante even says that's how he coped with his problems. He never remembered love, so he bought it. He gets drunk at the club, has a pointless, loveless screw with some hookers, wakes up with no idea what happened and a hangover.....he probably did that a lot before Kat came and woke him up to the truth. That's what she does she literally wakes him up by knocking on his door and then gives his life meaning. She's his guide in Limbo and in life. She makes an effort to change him a little and to make him care.

The problem lies with the execution. Dante doesn't actually express emotionally or by way of his acting that this lifestyle is harmful or tragic in any way, he just seems extremely neutral about it. His wounds are shown to heal instantly without consequence, the women leave without incident and he doesn't even have the bloodshot eyes and groggy motions of a person who is actually hung over. Due to this failure to emphasize these kinds of elements, it just seems like an empowerment kick for him where he gets to use women as dispensable objects, and by extension a juvenile way of seducing young male gamers into thinking that this New Dante is cool because of it. Regardless of intention, the failure of the execution renders it offensive and as a human being you shouldn't have to accept it.

He didn't assault her. The guy was hung over out of him mind and probably didn't have a clue he was naked. Plus Kat's reaction was more like 'meh'. If she felt upset by that, I'm sure she would have let him know. Besides, if you've seen the full naked game model of Dante, you'll know he doesn't have a penis. :p

It kind of reminds me of Raiden in MGS2. There are those who say nowadays that his lack of genitals was an intentional symbolism on Kojima's part, showing that he is dis-empowered and impotent as a character, just as the player is.

At least when Hideo makes an effort to cheat and betray an established fanbase he's clever about it.

Where did it say she was raped?:blink: Sure if you read between the lines, maybe, but even if she was, she didn't let it get to her. She said so herself that she killed him and she moved on from that event. While I don't agree with making rape a character developing tool, I'm not sure that was done with Kat.

I swear to Pazuzu I need to stop using Tvtropes to illustrate my points, but here we go:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory

Of course tropes aren't inherently bad, but it's about the execution again. Kat's background has almost no impact on the story or her actions within it, and we learn about it in an incredibly neutral, emotionless scene of shot-reverse-shot exposition. It's nice that Kat is apparently emotionally stable enough to talk about these painful events as if they were her shopping list, but it's still uninteresting story telling. Abuse is not a characterization trait to be thrown around lightly or forcibly pushed into a character's background in the name of shallow pathos.

As for Kat as a character, I like her. She's not as skantily dressed as say Lady(DMC4, 3 was fine) or Trish. She tries to pull her weight, helps out and is the reason Dante makes a connection with humans (his only connection for why he gives a damn, but that's a story for another day....>_< )

So just like DmC Dante, who is such an apathetic scum bag that he only cares about other people because of Kat. Lady impressed Dante by example, by the fact that she had similar problems to those he has with family and that she is mighty enough as a warrior to compete with him. Kat makes Dante stand up to Vergil because Vergil was quite literally declaring his intention to enslave her, thereby effectively making Dante not fight for her freedom as an individual, but to keep his possession under his control.

I doubt she could step in there and break up a fight between two of the most powerful beings ever. She's human, plus she cared for both of them, so there's that kind of conflict too. At least she talked Dante down from finishing Vergil for good.

It wouldn't have been out of the question to have Kat physically impose herself into the fight, or to have some kind of combat presence in the game as a whole.

She wasn't limited by her being female, but by her being human. In a world full of demons, how else is she supposed to be? She fights back the only way she can which is with spells and psychic powers.

Yet in this kind of setting, just as the previous DMC universe has shown, completely mundane human women can be righteous warriors and heroes in their own right. Lady demonstrated the same concepts of human limitations when she was not strong enough to defeat Dante, but at the same time her potency as a warrior demonstrated the raw grit that humans have and how it can rival that of the most powerful Demon. It's uplifting and empowering to consider the idea of a human, any human, being able to stand toe-to-toe with superhuman beings and god-like monsters, and especially when that person is a young woman of petite frame.

Kat by comparison is an object, to be owned and squabbled over by the major players of the plot, all male.
 

Judgement

The skeptical, open-minded, conservative, pacifist
Still no reply from the OP.

Tell me if I'm wrong but no matter what game comes out even if the girl is fully clothed and not even in tight clothes most guys will fawn over them and feel some sexual desire. I actually find women who are more clothed to be MORE sexy due to the unseen. Kat is actually pretty well covered up. Sure she shows some cleavage but not much compared to most girls in real life, in shows, animes or other games. Sure she has short shorts and bends over and the game shows it...so what...Back years ago(say even 10 or so) in gym girls wore smaller shorts than that to show off. Is it our fault or game makers fault that they only depicted what is reality? They even toned it down to be honest. I may be older than most in this forum but I can tell ya none of this is new what so ever LOL.

On a side note Kat is a very powerful woman. She is only human, yet a witch or soem sorts. She isn't Lady who has tons of money for weapons and a HUGE reason to go against the story. Kat also isn't a demon like Trish who is extremely strong yet still holds her ground and does her damdest to help two DEMON/ANGEL hybrids almost as well as they can do with their god like strength. Kat is a phenomenal character who in my eyes as a man(and even my in fiances eyes) is very resorsful and does the best she can in the position she is put in regardless of her gender. Hell ifI were in her position even as a man I may have not even done the same things she did haha. Enough said.
 

TheJoy

Smile with me.
Well, I was pointing out the negative 'sexy' uses of those characters in those games. in DMC4, Lady is there for nothing but fanservice with tiny hot shorts and practically falling out of her top....

DMC3's rendition of Lady was also a perfectly good example of a strong female character. The only reason she could not keep up on Dante and Vergil's terms is the same reason Kat hunkered down to weather the fight bwetween the brothers in DmC; she's only human, not a supernaturally powered Hybrid. That's why her "evolution" in DMC4 was such an insult; she came off as lazy, moneygrubbing, and really...looked more like she worked as a strip club than a successful demon hunter. It's not so much the "sexy outfit", its the fact she did NOTHING in DMC4 and essentially was eye candy and that was it.

By that logic, DMC 3 dante is sexist since he walks around bare chested. Granted Lady dosen't have any part in DMC 4 but, she she is empowered as she is telling Dante what to do and bosses him to go and sort it out. Dante who respects her does what she says.

and Trish, in DMC1, was backstabbing until Dante made her rethink what her existance was. Kyrie...the less said the better...

So being a backstabber is weak? Is that what your saying? Because a woman can be a back stabber and still be strong. Is it ok for a Man to back stab, but not a woman? As for her existence, with in constrains of DMC1 story, having some one make her realise that she doen't have to be evil is not a bad thing. Is it because Dante is a man that it make her look weak? If t was a woman would that make it better?

Also Kyrie is a non-combatant and is not the only woman in the game. If she was the only female in the story then I would see it as a problem. That fact that there are other strong women in the mix kinda balances that out.

And then there's Gloria...yeah, I'm leaving that one alone.

Why? I want to know why the persona that Trish made to make fun of the order and their puritanical ways is negative? She still kicked demon ass. She not just there as eye candy, she killed something in a badass way.

So, my point. Please don't insert words inbetween what i said or twist my words for your own attempts to demean what I am saying.

You keep saying this to a lot of people. No one is twisting your words. Just answering what you have written and how they understood what is it you wrote.

If i misunderstood then i'm sorry but this is what got from what you wrote and this is my rebuttal.

Could Kat have shown some better examples of her strength? Yeah, for sure...but she was hardly a "sexist portrayal" that the OP claimed. For that matter, as I said, classic has some far worse offense on it's record, but I still enjoy Classic DMC.

Well, if you don't find her portral sexist then fair enough, as for me, in an action game where there are strong male charters, I prefer it if the token good female character did more than just be an info dump macguffin.

And FYI, Bayo is a horrible example of "strong female". She's a walking fetish wet dream, sexualized to the point of unintended self-PARODY.

Have you played the game? She topples a patriarchal military regime that is planning to enslave God (Who is a woman). She routinely dominates the lives of every man she meets, be they strong or weak, her sexuality is the source of her empowerment rather than the means by which men control her, and even when she's captured at the eleventh hour it's another woman who comes to her rescue.

As a woman, there is nothing I find weak or sexist about her.

Most likely because the story centers around the relationship between Dante and Vergil, and how they came at odds with one another. Kat isn't supposed to be the strong female character, but to represent all of humanity, so I assume that's why she isn't as competent as Dante and Vergil, who represent angels and demons. It's her that gives Dante a reason to defend mankind.

Well, i wouldn't want humanity to be represented as helpless, who just stands around impotently when it's not ferrying the devils and angels to their destination like some kind of taxi driver. She helps by being an informant but not much more. Hell, lady was human and represented humanity as "We can kick your ass if you mess with us". Granted she doesn't make it to the final fight, but that's because she's human. It would be the same if she was a human man.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
The problem lies with the execution. Dante doesn't actually express emotionally or by way of his acting that this lifestyle is harmful or tragic in any way, he just seems extremely neutral about it. His wounds are shown to heal instantly without consequence, the women leave without incident and he doesn't even have the bloodshot eyes and groggy motions of a person who is actually hung over. Due to this failure to emphasize these kinds of elements, it just seems like an empowerment kick for him where he gets to use women as dispensable objects, and by extension a juvenile way of seducing young male gamers into thinking that this New Dante is cool because of it. Regardless of intention, the failure of the execution renders it offensive and as a human being you shouldn't have to accept it.
Of course he wouldn't express it. He lives a life where expressing something like that outwardly would mean being seen as weak. He's come to terms with his ****ty life, lives each day as it comes, knowing that demons are after him, and he doesn't care...probably wants to die. The women leave without trouble because they unwitting were spies used to track Dante. They left because their jobs was done...sex and tracking. >_<
I'm sure he did use women as a coping tool because he never had any affection that he can remember, so he bought it with women like that. It can't be that much of an execution failure if I can work out what's going on with Dante and make an interpretation on why he is how he is. Or maybe I'm an uneducated peon as I do not see anything about this as being offensive. That is your opinion.


It kind of reminds me of Raiden in MGS2. There are those who say nowadays that his lack of genitals was an intentional symbolism on Kojima's part, showing that he is dis-empowered and impotent as a character, just as the player is.

At least when Hideo makes an effort to cheat and betray an established fanbase he's clever about it.
I thought he had no penis because of Japanese genital censoring laws? :/


I swear to Pazuzu I need to stop using Tvtropes to illustrate my points, but here we go:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory

Of course tropes aren't inherently bad, but it's about the execution again. Kat's background has almost no impact on the story or her actions within it, and we learn about it in an incredibly neutral, emotionless scene of shot-reverse-shot exposition. It's nice that Kat is apparently emotionally stable enough to talk about these painful events as if they were her shopping list, but it's still uninteresting story telling. Abuse is not a characterization trait to be thrown around lightly or forcibly pushed into a character's background in the name of shallow pathos.
I get what they were going for, and it's not like DmC is the only media to do this with a character. I hear Lara Croft gets sexually assaulted in the reboot and that is what triggers her to make her first kill. That's worse than what they do with Kat. Or is that alright because it is not DmC? Don't think so....


So just like DmC Dante, who is such an apathetic scum bag that he only cares about other people because of Kat. Lady impressed Dante by example, by the fact that she had similar problems to those he has with family and that she is mighty enough as a warrior to compete with him. Kat makes Dante stand up to Vergil because Vergil was quite literally declaring his intention to enslave her, thereby effectively making Dante not fight for her freedom as an individual, but to keep his possession under his control.They're both apathetic, but by the end they suck it up and actually grow up a little. Lady does it by fighting and Kat does it by guiding. They do have some common ground....torment at the hands of demons, knowing that the world was wrong and being victimised because they knew the truth...plus in a life or death situation like theirs where they are constantly under attack would create a quick and strong bond. And I don't think he did it because he saw Kat as her possession. But if you do, that is your opinion. I see it more like, Kat helped them, put herself in danger and then Vergil thanks her by wanting to leave her with Mundus to die and then denying that she helped. Of course Dante was going to want to confront Vergil about that.


It wouldn't have been out of the question to have Kat physically impose herself into the fight, or to have some kind of combat presence in the game as a whole.But that would have got in the way of the gameplay. If Kat was taking kills for you it wouldn't be right. Unless you mean cutscenes? She threw that molotov at the hunter to weaken it, and got that SWAT in the open for Dante to take him out. I don't expect her to be all guns out, especially when demons like the hunter were immune to them. Her strength and character lies in her ability to be a guide to Dante in Limbo and a guide for him to change his outlook on life. Her power lies in her words, not in her combat. Besides, if Kat was in every scene with him, it would not be Dante's story. He would not meet Phineas in the same way if Kat was with him, or confront Lilith or Mundus in the same way.

Yet in this kind of setting, just as the previous DMC universe has shown, completely mundane human women can be righteous warriors and heroes in their own right. Lady demonstrated the same concepts of human limitations when she was not strong enough to defeat Dante, but at the same time her potency as a warrior demonstrated the raw grit that humans have and how it can rival that of the most powerful Demon. It's uplifting and empowering to consider the idea of a human, any human, being able to stand toe-to-toe with superhuman beings and god-like monsters, and especially when that person is a young woman of petite frame.Kat stood up to demons even though she couldn't fight like Lady. She helped to weaken the hunter demon, she protected Vergil from SWAT and used spells to slow down the infiltration of Order HQ, she was tortured by Mundus and talked Dante down from killing Vergil. She has power, but it's not like Lady. She shouldn't be compared to her because Kat is her own character.

Kat by comparison is an object, to be owned and squabbled over by the major players of the plot, all male.
Not to me she isn't.
 

Dante Redgrave

Son of Sparda
By that logic, DMC 3 dante is sexist since he walks around bare chested. Granted Lady dosen't have any part in DMC 4 but, she she is empowered as she is telling Dante what to do and bosses him to go and sort it out. Dante who respects her does what she says.

"Come along if you want, but don't expect to get paid". He later mocked her about the lack of payment she RIGHTFULLY owed him for the trouble SHE caused him, making her problems HIS problem. I don't see how she was any more respectful tereating him like a lap dog. It's the role she played; sexullay dressed "boss lady" who lazily handed her work off to others that was insulting to how she was established in DMC3.

So being a backstabber is weak? Is that what your saying? Because a woman can be a back stabber and still be strong. Is it ok for a Man to back stab, but not a woman? As for her existence, with in constrains of DMC1 story, having some one make her realise that she doen't have to be evil is not a bad thing. Is it because Dante is a man that it make her look weak? If t was a woman would that make it better?

...did you ignore where I pointed out her whole role was the "backstabbing femme fatale" which is as insultingly sexist as the DiD? That a Strong Sexy Woman is infact an evil backstabber until...~looks at how she heel turned~ the HEROIC man shows her the light? yeah, even in her strong woman role, it took Dante to make her realize her errors

Also Kyrie is a non-combatant and is not the only woman in the game. If she was the only female in the story then I would see it as a problem. That fact that there are other strong women in the mix kind balances that out.

But she was the main "prominent" female role, Tish and Lady had even less screen time and essentially were there as Eye Candy.

Why? I want to know why the persona that Trish made to make fun of the order and their puritanical ways is negative? She still kicked demon ass. She not just there as eye candy, she killed something in a badass way.

Oh, on the contrary, Gloria WAS there as "sexy lady time" Eye Candy. And we only saw her take on low level demons, the basic of enemies just to show her off in...very fanservicy fashion.

You keep saying this to a lot of people. No one is twisting your words. Just answering what you have written and how they understood what is it you wrote.

If i misunderstood then i'm sorry but this is what got from what you wrote and this are my rebuttal.



Well, if you don't find her portral sexist then fair enough, as for me, in an action game where there are strong male charters, I prefer it if the token good female character did more than just be an info dump macguffin.

Did I find it sort of fanservicy? Yeah, the outfit does that with the high-cut shorts, but we never saw Kat wearing some gaudy and skin-a-plenty outfit for the sake of showing her off. She played the human element, a human trying to keep up with a pair of very inhuman beings and being the very person who allowed them to even succeed. Sometimes it's not physical strength, it's mental, emotional, and spiritual. She essentially was playing a similar role to Lady in DMC3; the human element to give Dante a grounding and connection to humanity that makes him grow and care.

Have you played the game? She topples a patriarchal military regime that is planning to enslave God (Who is a woman). She routinely dominates the lives of every man she meets, be they strong or weak, her sexuality is the source of her empowerment rather than the means by which men control her, and even when she's captured at the eleventh hour it's another woman who comes to her rescue.

I have it, the whole game pretty much becomes it's own self-parody with how blatrently fanservice over sexualized it is. I'll make this comparison; Between Bayonetta, who is so sexualized it's pretty much what she is, and Katniss from Hunger Games, I take Katniss as a much better example of a strong female character.

As a woman, there is nothing I find weak or sexist about her.

Weak? No, in fact she's so overpowered it's ridiculous, she's a parody of herself at that point. It's like how Dante himself is so overpowered as a character, it's a joke, but it's one they run with. Sexist? Well, your own definition then, but Bayonetta was made as a sex icon...to the point that Kamiya even commented on how much attention they paid to designing how her BACKSIDE looked, and then later tried to back pedal on how overly sexualized she was made. Again, I would take Katniss over Bayo any day. no need to sexualize over skimpy down to show a strong female character.

Well, i wouldn't want humanity to be represented as helpless, who just stands around impotently when it's not ferrying the devils and angels to their destination like some kind of taxi driver. She helps by being an informant but not much more. Hell, lady was human and represented humanity as "We can kick your ass if you mess with us". Granted she doesn't make it to the final fight, but that's because she's human. It would be the same if she was a human man.

Again, the strength of a character isn't always "brute power, kicking ass! RAWR!" Sometimes itr;'s mental strength, emotional strength, spiritual strength. Kat wasn't physically strong, but her character showed a lot of mental and emotional strength, especially when she was tormented by Mundus for info and never revealed Vergil's secret. Oh, and regarding her foster father...pay attention to what she said. Vergil helped her, taught her how to face her own demons...and then SHE killed the demon foster father. Not Vergil, but KAT.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
I swear to Pazuzu I need to stop using Tvtropes to illustrate my points, but here we go:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory

Uh...Kat wasn't raped. The most we're told is that she was "abused," and that doesn't instantly mean raped :/ The abuse was most likely physical, and she did the same thing she used to do when she was abused at home when she was captured by Mundus - project her spirit.

So just like DmC Dante, who is such an apathetic scum bag that he only cares about other people because of Kat. Lady impressed Dante by example, by the fact that she had similar problems to those he has with family and that she is mighty enough as a warrior to compete with him. Kat makes Dante stand up to Vergil because Vergil was quite literally declaring his intention to enslave her, thereby effectively making Dante not fight for her freedom as an individual, but to keep his possession under his control.

This is a whole lot of bullshit. To say that the only reason Dante does anything in the end is only for Kat because she's property is such utter bullshit. You just put an misogynistic spin on the plot that clearly isn't there.

It wouldn't have been out of the question to have Kat physically impose herself into the fight, or to have some kind of combat presence in the game as a whole.

Kat by comparison is an object, to be owned and squabbled over by the major players of the plot, all male.

Kat isn't a fighter. Her skills aren't comprised of physical strengths, but spiritual ones, and she wasn't written to have a combat presence. You know all this already.

For you to say she's simply an object to be owned and squabbled over is pure bullshit. At this point all you're doing is feeding a fire and chiming in to agree with some idiotic perceived misogyny because it'll rile people up. Just leave it alone dude.[/quote]
 
God I can practically smell the fedoras in this thread. DmC fans are truly disgusting "human beings"

I don't see how any rational person can truly be blind to the rape allegory presented by the Witch type enemy, in which a man must destroy and break down a woman's barriers so he can violently penetrate her with his "sword"

But what can you expect from the gender responsible for 98% of all sex crime?
 

Meg

Well-known Member
Moderator
You could argue that Kat being a character that isn't about raw power and fighting is a refreshing take on women in the DMC/DmC series. In the original series, most of the women were fighters. While that is awesome, having some variety is nice. :)

Although, if the reason Kat wasn't a fighter solely because she's human, then that's really insulting. -_-
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
God I can practically smell the fedoras in this thread. DmC fans are truly disgusting "human beings"

I don't see how any rational person can truly be blind to the rape allegory presented by the Witch type enemy, in which a man must destroy and break down a woman's barriers so he can violently penetrate her with his "sword"

But what can you expect from the gender responsible for 98% of all sex crime?
:lol: Ok, you've had your fun troll. Bye bye. PS, I'm female, and I don't see the witch rape. What's next, Mundus must have raped Kat to get her to talk?:blink: Pfft, yeah right...

Also, women are also capable of such things as sex crime, but because they are women it is either not reported, or women are thought incapable to do such things.

Edit: Now, don't you think that's sexist and misogynistic that women are thought incapable of doing a sex crime just because they are women? :troll:
 

Judgement

The skeptical, open-minded, conservative, pacifist
God I can practically smell the fedoras in this thread. DmC fans are truly disgusting "human beings"

I don't see how any rational person can truly be blind to the rape allegory presented by the Witch type enemy, in which a man must destroy and break down a woman's barriers so he can violently penetrate her with his "sword"

But what can you expect from the gender responsible for 98% of all sex crime?

Please elaborate with facts.

Also please respond to the many posts here on the thread YOU created that give valid facts to your initial post. There are many that are only truthful and do not demean you in any way. This forum is for logical debates and if you cannot do such then what is the point? I have no ill will against you but wish you will counter with other certainties. I look forward to your future feedback
 

Meg

Well-known Member
Moderator
God I can practically smell the fedoras in this thread. DmC fans are truly disgusting "human beings"
I don't see how any rational person can truly be blind to the rape allegory presented by the Witch type enemy, in which a man must destroy and break down a woman's barriers so he can violently penetrate her with his "sword"

Okay, normally I would just ignore posts like this because they are probably trolls, but in the event you are serious, I'll say something. For giggles.

Your posts oozes man-hatred. Stop it. Oh sure, most of the people who commit sexual assaults are men, but very few men actually do those things.

But what can you expect from the gender responsible for 98% of all sex crime?

Why would you even say something like that? It's a disgusting of you to say. Good gosh.

And while everyone is welcome to join these forums, why are you here? If all you are going to do is call DmC fans disgusting?

Whoooooa, it's a quote within a quote within a quote. It's like Inception. It's *drumroll* QUOTECEPTION!

EDIT: fixed it. :D
 
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