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MAJOR SPOILERS! ENDING SHOWN HERE

MultiBro said:
But you are wrong in this case. People have been discussing the ending of DmC for a long time, so now when the word "ending" pops up in a forum like this, it all of sudden changes meaning?
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Sorry but it's getting late here and judging from your reply, you still missed my point. I'll be off now.
 
Gbraga said:
Oh I get, it's because I didn't like the actual ending, I wasn't understanding why you're attacking me even though I was giving huge props for Tameem for rising the questions, but it's now clear. Don't bother answering.
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I actually think it's pretty admirable to read in this degree of philosophical underlining into the events of this game, and I certainly wound not have tried reading Rosseau and Hobbes into Tameem's inimitable writing style.

Another thing that bothers me about the whole of this scene is the lack of action to the characterisation.

Gbraga said:
Ok, so now that I slept and got over the ending, I'll give my 2 cents on it, please like if you agree.

So, the build up to the fight is great, because it raises questions about human nature and how we should work it out in order to achieve peace, Vergil represents Thomas Hobbes, that believes that the human nature is corrupt and evil, so in order to achieve peace and maintain order, we need a solid state directly acting upon our society, and he calls that the Leviathan, while Dante, in the other hand, represents Rousseau, that believes that the human nature is good (and exemplifies with a child's innocence), and that the state of society that may or may not corrupt them. This is a GREAT discussion and I love that it's being raised by a videogame, huge props to Tameem for that.

But then comes the after fight ending and throws it all away when Dante stabs Vergil like a mad man, Vergil admits defeat and Dante becomes our protector and fanboys and fangirls have nerdgasms with him and Kat possibly becoming a couple, it's just too bland, too straightforward, in a way that it invalidates the discussion beyond "#TEAMDANTE" and "#TEAMVERGIL", so what I'd do would have a physical object of their conflict, like a power core Mundus uses to control society, and Vergil wants to take over that (his very own Leviathan) to maintain order and peace for mankind, while Dante believes that humans will end up just fine and we don't need an opressing power guiding us, so he wants to destroy the power core, then their conflict happen, they fight, and both during and after the fight Vergil gives GOOD REASONS for his point of view, and maybe even a twist involving humans in what happened to their parents, making Dante question himself. Dante beats Vergil and gets to the core, and he's hesitant, he's not so sure anymore about what's the right thing to do, and then we have this open ending (or they can end it with Dante destroying the core, but make he question himself first!). The way I see it, the best way to make your players wonder about the conflicts you proposed is to have the character they impersonate question it himself. Dante not even thinking twice about it renders all the discussion useless. Had he doubted himself in the end, even if he did destroy such power core (just like stating that he doesn't know if he did the right thing or whatever) you will raise this great discussion about human nature, what defines a dictatorship and the value of freedom, which would make for an amazing ending with months and months of discussion (that wouldn't even achieve a final answer) over the themes themselves, instead of just the superficial "what did you think of that scene when Dante stabbed Vergil??".

In the end, it was still a great ending if you consider all the build up as part of the ending, but if you just consider the post-fight scene as the ending, you'll get something very bland and disappointing, lacking the final "punch".
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I actually really like this plot concept. Granted it's nothing ground breaking, but it allows Vergil and Dante's motives and intentions to speak for themselves. Video games are a visual medium like film, so it's good if we can learn by seeing, and even better if we can learn by interaction; having Dante and Vergil just talk about Vergil's betrayal out of the blue isn't only amazingly uncreative direction for such a plot twist, but also incredibly poor use of the medium. If this was a radio drama I could stomach it, but in a production where the visual spectrum and gameplay conveyance are available to the creator, it's just objectively poor story telling.

And really? Vergil just up and comes out with this bombshell when all three are just chilling together? This man who single-handedly co-ordinated a spy network so intricate that a literal GOD couldn't catch him, he just up and admits his tyrannical motives to his unhinged rebel brother and one of the humans he intends to dominate, both hardened anarchists? What did he expect to happen? Hell, the characters themselves point out what a swerve this is by indicating how Vergil should trust Kat by this point after the whole game's events. Not only that, but why would Vergil have this kind of abject Manifest Destiny perspective on humanity? He's lived his entire life under supernatural tyranny, and has never witnessed the evils of men. If anything I'd expect him to start a campaign of extermination against demons and angels once he rose to power.

There is so much richness to these characters that the original games just glossed over that could have been explored and made beautiful right here, and I've been given so much nothing...

Hell, I'm babbling again, I should wait for the release...sorry everyone.
 
Oh god, double post, sorry again.

I'd just like to say again that I'm happy if you enjoy this ending, and that I'd love to hear your reasons why.
 
Macabre said:
I actually think it's pretty admirable to read in this degree of philosophical underlining into the events of this game, and I certainly wound not have tried reading Rosseau and Hobbes into Tameem's inimitable writing style.

Another thing that bothers me about the whole of this scene is the lack of action to the characterisation.



I actually really like this plot concept. Granted it's nothing ground breaking, but it allows Vergil and Dante's motives and intentions to speak for themselves. Video games are a visual medium like film, so it's good if we can learn by seeing, and even better if we can learn by interaction; having Dante and Vergil just talk about Vergil's betrayal out of the blue isn't only amazingly uncreative direction for such a plot twist, but also incredibly poor use of the medium. If this was a radio drama I could stomach it, but in a production where the visual spectrum and gameplay conveyance are available to the creator, it's just objectively poor story telling.

And really? Vergil just up and comes out with this bombshell when all three are just chilling together? This man who single-handedly co-ordinated a spy network so intricate that a literal GOD couldn't catch him, he just up and admits his tyrannical motives to his unhinged rebel brother and one of the humans he intends to dominate, both hardened anarchists? What did he expect to happen? Hell, the characters themselves point out what a swerve this is by indicating how Vergil should trust Kat by this point after the whole game's events. Not only that, but why would Vergil have this kind of abject Manifest Destiny perspective on humanity? He's lived his entire life under supernatural tyranny, and has never witnessed the evils of men. If anything I'd expect him to start a campaign of extermination against demons and angels once he rose to power.

There is so much richness to these characters that the original games just glossed over that could have been explored and made beautiful right here, and I've been given so much nothing...

Hell, I'm babbling again, I should wait for the release...sorry everyone.
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I just wanna say how impressed I am that you were reading the whole thread, WOW!
 
Gbraga said:
I just wanna say how impressed I am that you were reading the whole thread, WOW!
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Was I? I skimped a little on reading everyone's contributions, but I like to understand where everyone is coming from before I muck in on an ongoing debate.

Gbraga said:
And someone's tweeting Tameem in the end haha
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Holy **** that's some of the most hilariously cheesy **** I've seen since the Agnus and Dante Shakespeare scene. That's going to look so amazingly dated in just a few years, you mark my words.

Did you guys play that godawful movie tie-in Amazing Spiderman game? That used pseudo-Twitter to appear contemporary and topical too, and it looked just as daft.
 
MultiBro said:
You are seriously reaching after straws here when it comes to the meaning of ending.
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I actually came to the thread to have a dig at SoM for posting it in the first place. The game is not due for release in another few days in a lot of countries, he could have shown common courtesy and waited at least until Tuesday before making this thread. But alas, some people just don't care.
By and by, I've seen all the spoilers and walkthroughs and 'endings' and whatnot already. I just thought it was a cheek that someone would post the 'end' here before release date. + (a little spoiler for you - I've known what the ending is a wee while back already, nahhahaha)
Just thought I'd post again so the debate over SoM's cheek and his lack of reading between the lines could end now. He didn't spoil anything for me, and I kinda deflated when he told me what the ending 'is'. What an anti-climax. But yeah. Whatevers. I'm outta here.
 
Dante's Stalker said:
I actually came to the thread to have a dig at SoM for posting it in the first place. The game is not due for release in another few days in a lot of countries, he could have shown common courtesy and waited at least until Tuesday before making this thread. But alas, some people just don't care.
By and by, I've seen all the spoilers and walkthroughs and 'endings' and whatnot already. I just thought it was a cheek that someone would post the 'end' here before release date. + (a little spoiler for you - I've known what the ending is a wee while back already, nahhahaha)
Just thought I'd post again so the debate over SoM's cheek and his lack of reading between the lines could end now. He didn't spoil anything for me, and I kinda deflated when he told me what the ending 'is'. What an anti-climax. But yeah. Whatevers. I'm outta here.
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So CheeseKao did all that in vain? Hahahahaha.
 
Dante's Stalker said:
I actually came to the thread to have a dig at SoM for posting it in the first place. The game is not due for release in another few days in a lot of countries, he could have shown common courtesy and waited at least until Tuesday before making this thread. But alas, some people just don't care.
By and by, I've seen all the spoilers and walkthroughs and 'endings' and whatnot already. I just thought it was a cheek that someone would post the 'end' here before release date. + (a little spoiler for you - I've known what the ending is a wee while back already, nahhahaha)
Just thought I'd post again so the debate over SoM's cheek and his lack of reading between the lines could end now. He didn't spoil anything for me, and I kinda deflated when he told me what the ending 'is'. What an anti-climax. But yeah. Whatevers. I'm outta here.
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It's really down to the individual to decide to watch the ending or not chief. It's kind of the point of a fan forum to scrum for information wherever it pops up, and it'd be a disservice to those here not to provide information when it's available.

I mean, treating people as if they can't control themselves or decide what they want is just... hmm...
 
Macabre said:
It's really down to the individual to decide to watch the ending or not chief. It's kind of the point of a fan forum to scrum for information wherever it pops up, and it'd be a disservice to those here not to provide information when it's available.

I mean, treating people as if they can't control themselves or decide what they want is just... hmm...
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Maybe it's just a matter of opinion then.
 
Macabre said:
Was I? I skimped a little on reading everyone's contributions, but I like to understand where everyone is coming from before I muck in on an ongoing debate.



Holy **** that's some of the most hilariously cheesy **** I've seen since the Agnus and Dante Shakespeare scene. That's going to look so amazingly dated in just a few years, you mark my words.

Did you guys play that godawful movie tie-in Amazing Spiderman game? That used pseudo-Twitter to appear contemporary and topical too, and it looked just as daft.
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Yeah, I agree that the twitter part went a little bit too far, they should just have used the generic message board thing Steins;Gate did. It was obviously referencing 2ch, but it was abstract enough to fit into every generation.
 
Dante's Stalker said:
Maybe it's just a matter of opinion then.
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Trying to stop data aggregation on the internet is like trying to plug the levees with your junk.

Donte said:
Ah.. did i miss something ? I though the game isn't even.. released yet
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There's usually leaks days or even months before release of any project. Just wait until the next Metal Gear is released and you'll see what I mean.
 
Gbraga said:
Yeah, I agree that the twitter part went a little bit too far, they should just have used the generic message board thing Steins;Gate did. It was obviously referencing 2ch, but it was abstract enough to fit into every generation.
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The thing is that I get the purpose of the scene. It's the classic heroic realisation where you see the public's reflection on the narrative, like a greek chorus. You might remember in Sam Raimi's first Spiderman film they used Vox Pops to convey what the public is thinking at any time, and that was a surprisingly inventive and intimate way of conveying this idea.

...damn, I'm thinking way to much about Spiderman...

Yet with showing Twitter or message boards it just appears farcical. When the public take to tweeting after a major event it's got a reputation for being inane and puerile, literally the first stream of consciousness after event which is usually poorly considered and seldom profound. Then there's the lack of visual medium again: By conveying plot through text on a screen it's almost exactly like we're being made to simply read out the script rather than engaging with characters and being a part of events. I honestly can't tell if this scene was made out of artistic license, or simply because it's vastly cheaper than animating a scene where the public is shown reacting in person.
 
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