Majin form more imtimidating than sin

[devil_inside123]

I personally feel while sin dt is incredible and powerful the fact that majin form was so rarely seen and strong enough to kill all bosses in a few hits. Once you transformed into that you knew absolutely nothing could stop you. Itd be insane to make sin dt this powerful with how accessible it is but i wish they did something to make it feel a bit more foreboding. Ever since 3 dantes power hasnt felt like anything too special since its always written to be a counterpart to vergils power now. Before ot felt like dante was being built up to become even stronger than his father and something no others could oppose. Like he had this hidden well of infinite potential but now that signifigance feels it has Been cut in half due to always needing to have vergil as his equal now. I could accept it if 3 had him fully inheret his fathers will and power with the force edge being his but despite it all instead of feeling like spardas son, the second coming of him for the modern age vergil and dante both end up feeling like just halves to him. Not being able to live up to his legacy or power entirely on their own whereas 1 and 2 really felt like dante was spardas successor. It would be fine if it was just 3 but dante and vergil are both in their 40s and still dont seem to have matured a bit into anything i could declare successors to sparda. TLDR; Both Dante and vergils sin dts only feel half as powerful or intimidating as dantes dmc2 majin dt. They both still have badass designs tho.

 

[Hungry Alien]

Majin Form got some mystery behind it since it isn't referenced in the game. Plus the condition required to activate it and the raw power you get from it make more of an impression than the SDT which lack that extra kick. The SDT didn't get any build up and isn't part of Dante's development, it just shows up suddenly and the game doesn't really expand on it. It's similar the the SSJ Blue from Dragon Ball Super in that regard minus the poor design. Just pop out of nowhere and lack that hype and meaning.

Also Dante and Vergil are far lower than Sparda as we know from the legend. I mean, Vergil caused 2 catastrophes because of his blind search for power when the answers to his question just required him to lower the edge and think about his ways (which V did for him), and Dante was just rotting in his office and wasting his life away without any hopes or plans for the future. Both of them were stuck in their trauma, only one of them tried to get out of it in his own misguided ways while the other was just waiting for something to happen.

 

[Foxtrot94]

The requirement for Majin makes it feel more like a cheap gimmick in a game that's already hella cheap. Sin DT feels more like a legit mechanic integrated in the actual game, even tied to the Style ranking system through Quadruple S (one of the most broken moves in the whole series btw, provided you can keep SSS and avoid getting hit) and acts as both a power up AND a cancel while having its own move list just like Majin did.

As for "not feeling powerful enough", you get a full screen launcher, a full screen clear, and a move that literally oneshots demons by making them implode into a black hole looking thing.

I'd say the only thing Majin has over Sin DT is invulnerability. So yeah I can't relate. I'm more than happy we traded Majin for Sin. Not only does it look and feel just as beastly, but it's also a bit more technical and fleshed out from a gameplay standpoint.

The SDT didn't get any build up and isn't part of Dante's development, it just shows up suddenly and the game doesn't really expand on it

You can say exactly the same about Majin. It sounds like double standards tbh.

 

[devil_inside123]

The requirement for Majin makes it feel more like a cheap gimmick in a game that's already hella cheap. Sin DT feels more like a legit mechanic integrated in the actual game, even tied to the Style ranking system through Quadruple S (one of the most broken moves in the whole series btw, provided you can keep SSS and avoid getting hit) and acts as both a power up AND a cancel while having its own move list just like Majin.

As for "not feeling powerful enough", you get a full screen launcher, a full screen clear, and a move that literally oneshots demons by making them implode into a black hole looking thing.

I'd say the only thing Majin has over Sin DT is invulnerability. So yeah I can't relate. I'm more than happy we traded Majin for Sin. Not only does it look and feel just as beastly, but it's also a bit more technical and fleshed out from a gameplay standpoint.



You can say exactly the same about Majin. It sounds like double standards tbh.

I understand that sin has story signifigance but you cannot argue that sin lacks the raw power majin had. Sure sin has screen wiping moves but all that stuff only really works against lesser demon. With majin its regular attacks could demolish any boss. It always made me think "your screwed" everytime the ememy got a devastating hit on me but wasnt able to finish the job. Ever heard the saying "if your gonna hit the king you better kill the king" as for story i initially didnit feel it needed too much explaining i just assumed it was just them giving dante access to the level of power he unlocked at the end of the first game but with subsequent games that seemed to not be the case. Sin feels alot more flashy than powerful in my opinion. Granted this may just be a result of how easy 2 was to start with. Maybe i would feel different if they made it a bit harder to get sin dt and made its basic attacks just a tad bit stronger along with it not lasting as long. As it stands its way too easy to use it regularly for it to feel special. The power creep has made dt forms in general weird in this game for me when it comes to dante. Regualr dt does have its uses and techinally isnt any different than before but since 2 the dt forms have felt more and more lacking. To the point that sin dt only fills me with the same feeling of power that dt in 1 and 2 did when i was expecting it to be on the level of majin. I think alot of this has to doo with the fact that dt doesnt give you any new moves any more. In 1 it defaulted you to the best sword combo and made you extremely fast and in two you got an entirely new combo set while every game after simply made it a basic buff. Imma start a separate topic specifically for this though

 

[Foxtrot94]

Granted this may just be a result of how easy 2 was to start with.

Yep. I was about to say it but you did it for me.

As it stands its way too easy to use it regularly for it to feel special.

Sounds like another double standard to me. If the DMC2 enemies weren't so braindead that they miss you more times that they hit you, accessing Majin to cheese any encounter would be as easy as standing still and let them maul you till you're low. At least Sin is a little more technical while retaining the ease of availability. And making it even MORE hard hitting than it already is would have made it feel cheap like Majin, rather than special.

 

[devil_inside123]

Yep. I was about to say it but you did it for me.



Sounds like another double standard to me. If the DMC2 enemies weren't so braindead that they miss you more times that they hit you, accessing Majin to cheese any encounter would be as easy as standing still and let them maul you till you're low. At least Sin is a little more technical while retaining the ease of availability. And making it even MORE hard hitting than it already is would have made it feel cheap like Majin, rather than special

If the enemies were more hard hitting it would be a bit harder actually. For me personally i think itd be a cool idea if it took your health being lower for it to go red. Then youd need to purposely get hit while making sure the attack didnt kill you. Not as easy to cheese as i think your making it sound, especially on dmd where enemies would hit even harder but this is all just in a hypothetical version of dmc2 that isnt **** easy so as it stands i guess you got a valid criticism there. And i think the ease of accessbility is the problem for me. Like dante is supposed to be way more powerful than that. Even the sparda dt felt more powerful. I want it to be powerful but actually difficult to get. As it is its literally no harder to get than regular dt since u can use it to directly feed the SDT gauge. Its something that should only come when you need it i.e. a boss whose actually might be able to kill you. Not something that should just be readily available in every fight. Even being able to unleash the full power of dante against a regular empusa feels straight wrong imo. And consequentially regular dt feels useless for anything but regen. Im pretty sure the onky reason it doesnt have regen is so you still have a reason to use regular dt. Otherwise itd fall to the wayside even more than it already has Since if you need a boost of power what your really gonna go for is sdt

 

[Foxtrot94]

And i think the ease of accessbility is the problem for me.

Fair enough. Though DMC is at its best when it gives you as many options as possible. Which is why I'm glad they made SDT an actual mechanic rather than some situational gimmick like Majin, while still making it feel powerful af, with boss-demolishing potential as well thanks to Quadruple S.

But it's also why I agree with your point about regular DT, cause since SDT made it obsolete, it's now one less option to the player, being worse than Sin in almost every way.

A way to fix your complaints would maybe be giving more uniqueness to DT through some specific moves like Nero has (or modifying the properties of existing ones) and changing the requirement for SDT to be unrelated to regular DT and tied to something that makes it more difficult to obtain. Idk, like achieving SSS a certain number of times, or whatever else. Just not a requirement that can get RNG-ish like "your health has to be at a certain level" or something.

 

[Hungry Alien]

You can say exactly the same about Majin. It sounds like double standards tbh.

What I meant is that the SDT is part of the story, yet lack any meaning or build up. Like Dante go to his old house, stab himself and get the power up to defeat Urizen. Where is the logic in here ? Why go to his old house ? When did he figured it out ? If he knew how to do it, why not do it immediately after waking up to kill Urizen before Nero reach him ? The game never want to answer it because there is no reason, the story just needed Dante to make the story go on and also needed to create tension, so Dante waited until Nero is smashed by Urizen to step in. That's just bad story telling.

The Majin Form isn't tied to the story, so the only clue of what it is are in the gameplay. Dante needs to be close to death to use it and no other requirement. So he either get something from getting beaten up (which is unlikely) or use it as a last resort. Why use such a powerful ability only in the direst of situation then ? The only answer I see is that it is dangerous to use it, and from what I've read, it is actually driving Dante into a feral state of mind which represent his desire for destruction. So the form clearly points at Dante having trouble managing his demonic side and being potentially a danger to the world. That would have allowed to pave the way for a development for Dante in later game and the need for another protagonist since Dante is unreliable.

That's what the SDT lacks : meaning. That's why I compared it to the SSJ Blue from Dragon Ball Super. It's a form that exist because its "cool", it allows the story to move forward in a easy way and that's it. No meaning, no character development, nothing. Sure it is better incorporated in the gameplay, but it represent nothing in the serie.

 

[Foxtrot94]

That's what the SDT lacks : meaning.

Once again, can say the same about Majin. What you just said earlier about it was simply mild mental gymnastics with the sole purpose of trying to come up with some kind of deep meaning for a form that's just designed to be a cool little gameplay feature for the player to discover (not an uncommon practice at the time).

The game itself conveys no meaning for it. What you did was just rationalization after the fact, so to speak. It really sounds like you're trying really hard to hold on to whatever kind of reasoning and clues, as you put it, there may be to make it look like there's a deep significance behind it when there is none (none intended in the actual game anyway). And I mean, it's cool and fun to speculate and all, but there's times when it can't be used as a legitimate point of argument and sold as fact to set an actual comparison point. This is one of those, imo.

You can hold the claim of SDT not having any meaning story wise (which is a claim I'd be inclined to agree with as well) without also resorting to a double standard with no concrete basis to stand on.
You can claim that Sin, unlike Majin, was actually tried to be integrated into the story so it is "less excusable" for having no meaning, which is the point I think you were trying to make, without the need to try and make one up for Majin.

Now, hey, if you're absolutely convinced that the Majin form really has that hidden significance to it that the devs intended for it from the beginning, I know I can't change your mind at the end of the day, think what you will, I hope you don't read this as a personal attack towards you, I'm only expressing my... perplexity, towards that particular point of yours. And I wanna raise another speculation point cause I haven't seen anyone bring this up before. As I've heard, Sin DT is actually called Majin in the Japanese localization of the game. What if it was actually meant to be the precursor to DMC2's Majin form before they decided to alter that game's place in the timeline?

 

[BlackAngel]

The whole Sin DT has a huge plothole, especially the timeline that 5 takes place after DMC2.