How much of DMC's gameplay is in DmC?

[TWOxACROSS]

Or he could've grown a pair and killed the henchmen so they couldn't report back to Mundus anyway, plus they pulled him into Limbo, so doesn't that imply he is Nephilim anyway? Let alone the whole white hair thing being a bit of a giveaway, it's implied to be a Nephilim trait in DmC I think? (Not 100% on that last part)..

Anyone can be pulled into Limbo, actually. They did it to Kat and many others before to send them to Hellfire, a prison inside Limbo, so that's not a Nephilim trait. The Nephilim trait is them being able to go their on their own, without needing a demon to pull them in, since they themselves are half-demon.

The white hair...eeeh. Maybe? But...anyone can dye their hair, so...trying to find a supernatural race based solely on one's hairstyle wouldn't cut it >.<

 

[OppressedWriter]

He has some of the same Yamato moves from DMC3, but he only has one move from Beowulf (Starfall/Killer Bee, same thing more or less) and two from Force Edge (if you count his new versions of Helmbreaker/Hightime as Force Edge moves), all the rest were removed so that is definitely not all his old moves by a long shot.

- What exact moves is he missing? He has all the moves or different versions except they've all been implemented into the yamato instead of a different skin. I don't see how you can mechanically argue that their is a fundamental difference in what a force edge helmbreaker/hightime vs a yamato helmbreaker/hightime, its a redundant move, that's one of the things DmC got rid of mostly. Every move has some sort of real purpose or does something different to the enemies.

- Didn't you see the similarities between Yamato's Orbit and beowulf's lunar phase? I mean their names are even similar.

- Or how orbital flush has a similar look to roundtrip and theory works the same? Think about it, the roundtrip would fly towards an enemy and then would return when finished. Well, the orbital flush embs an enemy with a summoned sword and lets you teleport or pull them towards you. I think that's a much more fitting and natural extenstion of Vergil's moveset.

The only thing DmC did was add new moves, rolled over the old ones into their yamato versions, and buffed the **** out of the rest of his moveset.

- His angel pull and demon pull also have no distances, which is a improvement over vergil's older air trick.

- His doppelganger DT allows for all kinds of amazing combos and set ups, especially with the delay, and the move lock ability.

I keep repeating htis, but DmC wants you to use crowd control moves for crowds, the challenge is in doing a seamless combo on all the enemies, the idea of choosing a high priority target would require changing the AI completely.

Okay, take for example, you have a two hell knights and 4 stygians, if you kill the hell knights one by one with some kind of focused lock on mechanic, then you can just dominate the stygians. The enemies are push overs by themselves in DmC, its about controlling the crowd and using proper tactics to take them out as whole not as single targets.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I would still prefer Beowulf over the demonic version of Yamato. And I also would've liked Vergil to use a double-handed grip for the divorce combo.

 

[AcidX_Y]

- His doppelganger DT allows for all kinds of amazing combos and set ups, especially with the delay, and the move lock ability.

I thought Vergils DT was OP cause of the combo options it gives, you can SSS score the levels even if you get a 50% penalty.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I would still prefer Beowulf over the demonic version of Yamato. Also, I'm having a hard time watching the combos due to the particle effects from Doppelganger.

One thing more:

I would have liked Vergil to use both hands for the divorce combo.

Yeah, I guess that's a Yamato lore thing they didn't want to probably mess with, since the Yamato has never been used with two hands by anyone in the DMC series.

I thought Vergils DT was OP cause of the combo options it gives, you can SSS score the levels even if you get a 50% penalty.

I think that was actually just something that was not thought about due to the tighter schedule and smaller team by which it was made. The issue was that the DLC used the same points system as dante's and they forgot to change the item usage and death penalty numbers. I did modify those as well on PC, where a death would usually guarantee no SSS, and using items would as well.

- I made death lower your overall score by 20%.

= I made item pentalty go from a joke of 50,000 to 1,000,000 points per use.

- Also, the upper slash animation had a speed error, it won't actually work sometimes, I found the issue and fixed it as well, it was firing a millisecond too fast.

 

[OppressedWriter]

DmC Group AI Examples​

In the following video, you'll get a good idea of how the AI in DmC works, watch how the two dreamrunners coordinate their attack patterns not only with each other, but also the moving train. Then watch part with the harpies, to get an idea of how this game wants big battles to become something more akin to going with the flow instead of attacking a single target. It becomes very arkham esque but with a way more complex set of actions at your disposal.

1:25 - Dreamrunner Group AI in sync with moving train.

2:00 - Group AI, arkham esque rhythm dynamics with seamless aerial harpy battle.
Watch how I mix up various tactics to interrupt enemies before they interrupt me.

Now I'd like to ask how would such a fast and dynamic battle be possible with a hard lock? How would the player and the camera be able to react this seamlessly with a lock on function? The game's auto lock chooses the highest priority threat, which is what makes this a game of rock/papers/scissors, where I simply have to worry about inputing the appropriate crowd control tactic to avoid being damaged or interrupted.

Essentially, DmC can be best described as a battle of interruptions between you and the enemies. Can you mix and use all your moves at the right time to make sure the crowd is unable to interrupt you?

For every potential attack in DmC, you always have a way to react before an enemy interrupts you, their are no cheap hits, which make the game feel unfair.

Potential Attack Reaction Situations​

In the best case scenario, any of the following reactions will prevent you from being hit: regular attacks, gun charge attacks, double jumps, dodges, and parries.

In the worst case scenario, the number of these options might be limited to one like a parry or a jump, because you played too aggressively, dodged and double jumped in the air, and continued comboing an enemy without a jump cancel reset.

Older Video demonstrating AI (I was pretty new to the game)​

Additionally, this is an older video, which also demonstrates the group AI dynamic of DmC, although I hate how I played now, I was pretty new to the game at the time.

2 dreamrunners + witch = more tactical, dodge heavy, look for openings.
2 dreamrunners = some more breathing room, can become more aggressive.
1 dreamrunner = game is locked on naturally to the final target, and you can go full force with style on his ass.

P.S. Can you guys guess in which video I was a noob and just got into DmC?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Or he could've grown a pair and killed the henchmen so they couldn't report back to Mundus anyway, plus they pulled him into Limbo, so doesn't that imply he is Nephilim anyway? Let alone the whole white hair thing being a bit of a giveaway, it's implied to be a Nephilim trait in DmC I think? (Not 100% on that last part)..

That would be too risky. Demons could probably take a snap memory of Vergil and send right to Mundus the second he fights back. But since Dante killed the demon, that's not the case.

It's called strategy for a reason.

He has some of the same Yamato moves from DMC3, but he only has one move from Beowulf (Starfall/Killer Bee, same thing more or less) and two from Force Edge (if you count his new versions of Helmbreaker/Hightime as Force Edge moves), all the rest were removed so that is definitely not all his old moves by a long shot.

They're not, but that doesn't mean new Vergil's limited just because he's only got Yamato. He's not like old Vergil where if you only use Yamato you feel limited. New Vergil has an array of attacks, light, heavy, and aerial attacks that make up for all that.

I can adapt to the new control scheme, I just think that the gameplay in DmC is average/meh, so I haven't taken the time to learn it in-depth like I did for DMC3/DMC4, and I also still believe the combat would be better if they implemented a PROPER lock-on feature, none of this centre camera half lock on stuff.

A lock-on actually wouldn't have changed anything. It would've just been a small importance since Dante's attacks are for a wide group of demons. Plus the reason DmC's combat is like it is, is because it's trying to capture the ways of DMC1 while gaining some tricks from DMC3 and DMC4. DmC is a hack n' Slasher not a complicated puzzle of mechanics that DMC3 and DMC4 was. It would only be popular in its niche fanbase because the mechanics of DMC3 and DMC4 are too difficult for the regular and new gamers to master. Most gamers don't have the time nor the care for mastering DMC3 or DMC4's gameplay. They have lives with other games and in general. So it's better that DmC is like this because it's literally "pick up the game and go". No "pick up the game and memorize all these mechanics if you wanna actually have fun. It might take you a good three ours to master it all (three hours you could be using to actually PLAY the game) but hey that's how DMC is".


Also, I happen to like old Vergil's character, whereas I do not like new Vergil at all so that also does influence my opinion to a degree. My point is that while new Vergil is a new movelist etc to play around with and complete missions with, saying that he plays like DMC3 Vergil I do completely disagree with, as approximately 2/3rds of his old moves are no longer there and his playstyle is very different.

If that's how you see it, then fine. But old Vergil IS in new Vergil with some of the movesets so its whatever.

Also, I completely admit that I mostly play DMC3 and it is my favourite game in the Devil May Cry series, closely followed by DMC1/DMC4, while I am not much of a fan of DmC, I think the gameplay is "passable", just nothing too special and I disagree with a few points of the games combat system.

Good on you. I'd rather be playing DMC3 and DmC then DMC4 myself.

It's still leagues better than DMC2's combat however, I would never try to argue otherwise lol.

You'd be surprised who does argue with that sentiment.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think Mundus has himself some sort of telepathic link with Limbo, since he was able to both sense the succubus', Lilith's, and Barbas' death, and he seemed to know Dante's general location when he sent out that blast during the trade.

Overall, I think it's a general conception that Mundus would totally know if Vergil did anything to "out" himself.

Doesn't change the fact that he was still sorta bein' a wiener during the fight with Mundus with his "Dante! Do something!" I sorta chalk that up to him actually playing his abilities so close to the vest he didn't want Dante to know what he was capable of either.

So it's better that DmC is like this because it's literally "pick up the game and go". No "pick up the game and memorize all these mechanics if you wanna actually have fun.

Y'know, this is actually one reason I like DmC - I can just hop right in and play it (along with not feeling like I'm wrestling with the controls like in the classics). It's the same reason why I love Stranglehold, I mean, I totally love Max Payne, but Stranglehold has a very arcade feel, so it just lets me get to shootin' the bad guys.

There's a lot of games that have very "arcade-style" features to them, and often that aspect is sorta missed when people try to figure out why a game is still fun. I felt the same way with Bioshock Infinite - they throw tons of bad guys at you because...well...it's a shooter, so have fun with your guns and vigors and messin' people up!

 

[OppressedWriter]

So it's better that DmC is like this because it's literally "pick up the game and go". No "pick up the game and memorize all these mechanics if you wanna actually have fun. It might take you a good three ours to master it all (three hours you could be using to actually PLAY the game) but hey that's how DMC is".

Yeah, what's great about DmC is that the advanced stuff is there, but learning it is not a requirement to get enjoyment out of the game.

 

[OppressedWriter]

60fps DmC Test Footage, Click on the gear and run it at 2x speed guys, and experience the smoothness.

I think you have to watch it on the youtube page to get the option to run at 2x speed.

Click here.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's actually pretty smooth. Sorta cool that there's a work around to YouTube's 30fps thinger.

 

[MKH Spartan]

- What exact moves is he missing? He has all the moves or different versions except they've all been implemented into the yamato instead of a different skin. I don't see how you can mechanically argue that their is a fundamental difference in what a force edge helmbreaker/hightime vs a yamato helmbreaker/hightime, its a redundant move, that's one of the things DmC got rid of mostly. Every move has some sort of real purpose or does something different to the enemies.

- Didn't you see the similarities between Yamato's Orbit and beowulf's lunar phase? I mean their names are even similar.

- Or how orbital flush has a similar look to roundtrip and theory works the same? Think about it, the roundtrip would fly towards an enemy and then would return when finished. Well, the orbital flush embs an enemy with a summoned sword and lets you teleport or pull them towards you. I think that's a much more fitting and natural extenstion of Vergil's moveset.

The only thing DmC did was add new moves, rolled over the old ones into their yamato versions, and buffed the **** out of the rest of his moveset.

Ok, let me go through his DMC3 movelist.

Yamato moves: Standard Yamato 3 hit-combo - In DmC, pretty much the same thing.
Aerial Rave - In DmC, but is now 3 hits instead of two I believe and has lost it's float in the air property, or the ability to do it well anyway. Doesn't matter much however, as the levels are actually designed for his movelist.
Rapid Slash - In DmC, similar enough to how it used to work, doesn't sound as cool though lol.
Upper Slash - Not in DmC.
Judgement Cut - In DmC, no longer 3 hits but a 1 hit strike with a shorter charge time, but you can no longer move while charging. Decent, but I prefer the previous version, as it allows for better crowd control, whereas the new one is more single target orientated.
Vergil's Dark Ki Devil Regen taunt - DmC removed taunts, because they are troll like that.

Beowulf moves: Standard Beowulf combo - Not in DmC.
Starfall - In DmC, under the name Killer Bee (Dante's Beowulf equivalent in DMC3).
Lunar Phase - Not in DmC, and it is not the same as Orbit, Orbit is aerial combo filler, Lunar Phase is useful for interrupting opponents while on the ground, and they do not look very similar at all.
Rising Sun - Not in DmC.

Force Edge moves: Standard Force Edge combo - Not in DmC.
Helm Breaker - In DmC, works more or less the same way.
Stinger - Not in DmC.
High Time - In DmC, works more or less the same way.
Round Trip - Not in DmC, it does not look like nor work the same way as Aerial Flush, Round Trip is used for holding an opponent still while you combo them or focus on another target, whereas Aerial Flush is used for knocking targets away from you.

Summoned Sword moves - All of them are there in some form, they work a little differently but are close enough.

Angel/Demon pull have longer range which is nice, but they don't have any i frames like his Darkslayer gap closers in DMC3 did, depends what trade off you prefer I suppose.

Vergil and Dante's DT are completely OP as **** in DmC, and need a serious nerf/rework lol, it's like activating god mode (pulls out keyboard and puts TGM in the command console mid gameplay, that's effectively what it is).

Yeah, what's great about DmC is that the advanced stuff is there, but learning it is not a requirement to get enjoyment out of the game.

Learning the advanced stuff isn't a requirement to get enjoyment out of any previous DMC either by the way.

Anyway, point is he doesn't have a fair few of his moves from DMC3, and while he has some of the same moves he does not play the same at all really, also I don't find his new playstyle as enjoyable personally, it feels like just spam aoe lauchers into godlike aerial combo damage and you win.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Ok, let me go through his DMC3 movelist.

Aerial Rave - In DmC, but is now 3 hits instead of two I believe and has lost it's float in the air property, or the ability to do it well anyway. Doesn't matter much however, as the levels are actually designed for his movelist.

Not if you jump cancel. With DMC3 just jump cancel and that makes more then 2. Plus it hasn't lost it's float in the air ability because, low and behold, DmC Vergil is still in the air as he swings yamato.

Rapid Slash - In DmC, similar enough to how it used to work, doesn't sound as cool though lol.

Nippicking much?

Upper Slash - Not in DmC.

What are you talking about? Yeah it is.

Judgement Cut - In DmC, no longer 3 hits but a 1 hit strike with a shorter charge time, but you can no longer move while charging. Decent, but I prefer the previous version, as it allows for better crowd control, whereas the new one is more single target orientated.

Not necessarily. If you level it up, you can get a lot of guys with the attack when they're bunched up together. Same as with DMC3 when all the enemies get put in one.

Vergil's Dark Ki Devil Regen taunt - DmC removed taunts, because they are troll like that.

Yeah, cause taunts are what made DMC3 the best game in the world. Plus taunts are just easy S rank climbing moves.

Rising Sun - Not in DmC.

That's what Rising Star is.

Force Edge moves: Standard Force Edge combo - Not in DmC.

Dude that's what Crosscut is for DmC.

Round Trip - Not in DmC, it does not look like nor work the same way as Aerial Flush, Round Trip is used for holding an opponent still while you combo them or focus on another target, whereas Aerial Flush is used for knocking targets away from you.

Summoned swords handle that department. Why have two weapons that can do the same thing?


Angel/Demon pull have longer range which is nice, but they don't have any i frames like his Darkslayer gap closers in DMC3 did, depends what trade off you prefer I suppose.

That's what his regular evades are for. Using the summoned swords of Angel/Demon closes the gap between Vergil and demons.

Vergil and Dante's DT are completely OP as **** in DmC, and need a serious nerf/rework lol, it's like activating god mode (pulls out keyboard and puts TGM in the command console mid gameplay, that's effectively what it is).

Yeah, they are stronger then DMC3's DT. Wouldn't want the DmC twins to be too much stronger then the originals, huh?

Learning the advanced stuff isn't a requirement to get enjoyment out of any previous DMC either by the way.

True, but like I said, niche fanbase get a niche fanbase DMC game while new comers have to work through all these mechanics to have some fun, otherwise they're just spamming the triangle button and square button.

Anyway, point is he doesn't have a fair few of his moves from DMC3, and while he has some of the same moves he does not play the same at all really, also I don't find his new playstyle as enjoyable personally, it feels like just spam aoe lauchers into godlike aerial combo damage and you win.

Just like DMC4 combo vids

 

[OppressedWriter]

"Aerial Rave - In DmC, but is now 3 hits instead of two I believe and has lost it's float in the air property, or the ability to do it well anyway. Doesn't matter much however, as the levels are actually designed for his movelist."
Incorrect, are you seriously telling me he can't float in DmC using his rapid slash, you can infinitely cancel using his air trick, and its actually faster as you can see in the video above, since you can do three hits instead of two in the same time frame.
"Rapid Slash - In DmC, similar enough to how it used to work, doesn't sound as cool though lol."
No its better, you can cancel in and out of rapid slash into any attack including itself, which is much more useful and interesting, it also works different if you strike an enemy at the end of its animation, it pushes them away like a stinger vs if you rapid slash through them it works more like a combo linker.
"Upper Slash - Not in DmC."
DmC does have upper slash, that's what his yamato launcher move is called. I'm glad you confused it with high time, should help you understand why DmC doesn't have both, because they were the same move with different names.
"Judgement Cut - In DmC, no longer 3 hits but a 1 hit strike with a shorter charge time, but you can no longer move while charging. Decent, but I prefer the previous version, as it allows for better crowd control, whereas the new one is more single target orientated."
DmC's judgement cut attacks multiple targets if you perfect slice, it has an AOE effect to all targets in front of you. Also, you can chain judgement cut if you have good timing, because the charges for level 1 buffer into one another.
"Vergil's Dark Ki Devil Regen taunt - DmC removed taunts, because they are troll like that."
Look at the various ways Vergil Sheathes his Yamato at the end of attacks. That's DmC's version of taunts.
"Beowulf moves: Standard Beowulf combo - Not in DmC."
See Yamato Divorce Attack.
"Lunar Phase - Not in DmC, and it is not the same as Orbit, Orbit is aerial combo filler, Lunar Phase is useful for interrupting opponents while on the ground, and they do not look very similar at all."
I disagree. I don't know he spins in the air with his kick and you do the same thing in DmC a spinning aerial rotation, its clearly inspired by it and shows how much they tried to respect the fans. If you're not seeing the similarity you're being biased, compare the particles and spin patterns of both attacks.
"Rising Sun - Not in DmC."
I guess you didn't even watch the video. Pretty lame.
What do you think Rising Star is inspired by? That's the regular version of Solar Flare.
"Force Edge moves: Standard Force Edge combo - Not in DmC."
DmC has the same combo except its the Yamato version, come on man, the crosscut combo is beautiful, its such a clever interpretation of the the force edge/yamato mix up from the classic combo.
"Stinger - Not in DmC."
Yes, because Rapid slash performs the same function if the player requires it.
"High Time - In DmC, works more or less the same way."
Its called upper slash in DmC, but yeah easy to get confused, since in DMC3 they were redundant moves that did the same thing.
"Round Trip - Not in DmC, it does not look like nor work the same way as Aerial Flush, Round Trip is used for holding an opponent still while you combo them or focus on another target, whereas Aerial Flush is used for knocking targets away from you."
It is not to just push targets away, that is why it embeds a summoned sword into them, because you can then immediately teleport them back towards you or teleport towards them, and keep up the heat. And yes it does look like roundtrip, watch the video and compare the spinning sword with the aerial flush projectile in the video.
"Angel/Demon pull have longer range which is nice, but they don't have any i frames like his Darkslayer gap closers in DMC3 did, depends what trade off you prefer I suppose."
You're wrong, you do have invincibility frames when you angel pull, its a teleport, ie you cannot be hit while teleporting, not to mention you can combine this with his actual trick up trick down dashes. And longer range means no range, not longer range, you can be anywhere on the map.
"Vergil and Dante's DT are completely OP as **** in DmC, and need a serious nerf/rework lol, it's like activating god mode (pulls out keyboard and puts TGM in the command console mid gameplay, that's effectively what it is)."
They're fine, Dante's drains fast enough and the game is about getting the highest score, but in terms of Vergil, yes the points system is a bit screwed up, still the actual combo possibilities that his Doppelganger provides are awesome and well worth it if you're someone who likes getting creative.

And lastly, don't forget that unlike the older Vergil, all of these moves can be cancelled into and out of on both air and ground in DmC.

 

[MKH Spartan]

Fair enough, DmC does play differently and is more about fast, fun, arcade style points and you want more challenge and tactical gameplay, so can't argue with you about your preferences.

That about covers my gaming preferences in one sentence, well done lol.

 

[MKH Spartan]

Wow, thanks for the honesty. This explains why you have been wasting mine and everyone else's time. So I guess you have no counters for all the things you were wrong about? And here I thought you were actually someone worth having a discussion with about gameplay mechanics.

Maybe I misread your post there, what I was saying was that I like games with rather tactical combat, like Dragons Age Origins for example, there's no need to phrase your post in such an aggressive way.

Also, I stick by what I said, I just decided to agree to disagree with you on your ideas on Vergil DMC3/DmC comparisons and dropped it, as the discussion would most likely lead nowhere as the majority of key ideas had already been discussed and I still disagree with many of your opinions on it, however at the end of the day, different games appeal to different people more than others and everyone has different opinions on them.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Maybe I misread your post there, what I was saying was that I like games with rather tactical combat, like Dragons Age Origins for example, there's no need to phrase your post in such an aggressive way.

Also, I stick by what I said, I just decided to agree to disagree with you on your ideas on Vergil DMC3/DmC comparisons and dropped it, as the discussion would most likely lead nowhere as the majority of key ideas had already been discussed and I still disagree with many of your opinions on it, however at the end of the day, different games appeal to different people more than others and everyone has different opinions on them.

Okay, well, it just felt like you were being cheeky in your short response, especially after I took the time to address your post with a detailed explanation. And the quote you chose, made it seem like I was saying DmC is a simple, fun game with no depth, even though I've given much better explanations about the type of game it is throughout this thread. Anyway, before I was done editing, what I meant to say was that DmC is a game that reacts to the player and not the opposite. Or here's a better example, DmC is best for people who pick rushdown characters in fighting games, and not so much for turtlers, who don't.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying, I misread your post as well. My apologies.

 

[MKH Spartan]

Okay, well, it just felt like you were being cheeky in your short response, especially after I put a long explanation, and you took just one quote which makes it seem like DmC is some casual arcade action game, even though I've given much better explanations about the type of game it is throughout this thread. Anyway, before I was done editing, what I meant to say was that DmC is a game that reacts to the player and not the opposite. Or here's a better example, DmC is for people who pick rushdown characters in fighting games, and not for turtlers who like to react.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying, I misread your post as well. My apologies.

It's ok, also in fighting games (the main one I play is the Soul Calibur series), I play spacing characters who often do turtle a bit (for me, Siegfried mostly), rather than rushdown characters which do not fit my playstyle so much.

 

[OppressedWriter]

It's ok, also in fighting games (the main one I play is the Soul Calibur series), I play spacing characters who often do turtle a bit (for me, Siegfried mostly), rather than rushdown characters which do not fit my playstyle so much.

You know what's so funny about what just happened, its so meta you and I might wake up out of the matrix. It's like we just had the message board equivalent of a fighting game fight between an aggressive rushdown player and a patient turtler. You even managed to play it safe enough to frustrate me and make me overreact. So good job .

 

[Tiran]

You know what's so funny about what just happened, its so meta you and I might wake up out of the matrix. It's like we just had the message board equivalent of a fighting game fight between an aggressive rushdown player and a patient turtler. You even managed to play it safe enough to frustrate me and make me overreact. So good job .