How did this not make it into the game?

[Tiran]

So he'd only be human sized for the first phase of the fight(Because that's what the concept art suggests.)? If that's true then he'd just turn into something like a fight with the tyrant or butcher but with a few more attacks.

A proper boss is far more than just a more powerful version of a grunt. By that logic, Vergil is just a unscaled dream-runner with more moves. Or the hunter is a giant Rage. We know this is not the case. I'm talking Armstrong from MGR levels of awesome in terms of dynamic movement. The butcher was not a fully mobile enemy and the tyrant was a non-aggressive enemy at times. These characters spent to much time passively waiting/walking around the battlefield before getting into an attack animation that doesn't combo into anything. A proper boss gives very little opening to attack and even then, it's subtle. It keeps the pressure on you, not the other way around like grunts do.

 

[OppressedWriter]

A proper boss is far more than just a more powerful version of a grunt. By that logic, Vergil is just a unscaled dream-runner with more moves. Or the hunter is a giant Rage. We know this is not the case. I'm talking Armstrong from MGR levels of awesome in terms of dynamic movement. The butcher was not a fully mobile enemy and the tyrant was a non-aggressive enemy at times. These characters spent to much time passively waiting/walking around the battlefield before getting into an attack animation that doesn't combo into anything. A proper boss gives very little opening to attack and even then, it's subtle. It keeps the pressure on you, not the other way around like grunts do.

Tiran, the bosses in DmC though were deliberately designed to react instead of attack, they increase in attack frequency as the player tries to combo them harder, if they were to be as scritped or reaction based as MGR bosses, it would gretly decrease the possibilities for most players to be creative in the battles against them.

 

[Tiran]

Tiran, the bosses in DmC though were deliberately designed to react instead of attack, they increase in attack frequency as the player tries to combo them harder, if they were to be as scritped or reaction based as MGR bosses, it would gretly decrease the possibilities for most players to be creative in the battles against them.

That works only for higher level players who can unlock that potential challenge and even then, we have all seen how passive theses enemies and bosses are compared to the previous games. I mean the hunter and all bosses really are idle after a stun, like, forever. Enemies will circle around you strafing for too long before attacking. when attacking they lift thier arms for far too long before swing at you. Yahtzee himself complained about this. This mechanic is broken in this game. It was an interesting idea, but the challenge should be set by the chosen difficulty, not the actions of the player in-game. If you want to show off how you cheese an aggressive enemy by playing passively, a cornerstone of defensive game-play like Royalguard, you end up waiting for the enemy to attack far longer than you should because of this. Also, having enemies that react instead of pro-act tends towards the common boss freezes sometimes seen during console game-plays as the activation of the enemies is never properly initiated.

 

[OppressedWriter]

That works only for higher level players who can unlock that potential challenge and even then, we have all seen how passive theses enemies and bosses are compared to the previous games. I mean the hunter and all bosses really are idle after a stun, like, forever. Enemies will circle around you strafing for too long before attacking. when attacking they lift thier arms for far too long before swing at you. Yahtzee himself complained about this. This mechanic is broken in this game. It was an interesting idea, but the challenge should be set by the chosen difficulty, not the actions of the player in-game. If you want to show off how you cheese an aggressive enemy by playing passively, a cornerstone of defensive game-play like Royalguard, you end up waiting for the enemy to attack far longer than you should because of this. Also, having enemies that react instead of pro-act tends towards the common boss freezes sometimes seen during console game-plays as the activation of the enemies is never properly initiated.

That's the thing though, I love DmC for exactly that, its a game about doing combos, and the better you get at doing combos the more challenging the game gets. The other way its easy to get bored, MGR, it was fun while it lasted, but I've lost interest to keep playing it, because its too cheap and repetitive, like I have to do homework to beat certain parts. I think the 20% turbo and 60 fps would be sufficient for most players, it really does make quite a difference in the game's enemy aggression and difficulty.

I'd also argue that Dante Must Die is pretty difficult and their are quite a few challening encounters in the game, its about group encounters, enemies by themselves always get dominated. That's why there are leader boards to keep trying to increase your score and time. People complain about the tactical encounters like the ones with colored enemies, but those were essentially put in for defensive players, because its only in those fights that you have to manage environmental hazards and enemy attacks.

I guess my big problem is that at 20% the game seems totally fair and challenging without changing a damn thing on the AI. It's really a slight speed issue, and I wouldn't want them to **** up the timing of the game's combat by just making the AI braindead attack bots. It's because they react to the player that the combat feel so good when you're playing it at high level, like the game is keeping its beat with you instead of you trying to keep the beat with it.

 

[Tiran]

That's the thing though, I love DmC for exactly that, its a game about doing combos, and the better you get at doing combos the more challenging the game gets. The other way its easy to get bored, MGR, it was fun while it lasted, but I've lost interest to keep playing it, because its too cheap and repetitive, like I have to do homework to beat certain parts. I think the 20% turbo and 60 fps would be sufficient for most players, it really does make quite a difference in the game's enemy aggression and difficulty.

I'd also argue that Dante Must Die is pretty difficult and their are quite a few challening encounters in the game, its about group encounters, enemies by themselves always get dominated. That's why there are leader boards to keep trying to increase your score and time. People complain about the tactical encounters like the ones with colored enemies, but those were essentially put in for defensive players, because its only in those fights that you have to manage environmental hazards and enemy attacks.

I guess my big problem is that at 20% the game seems totally fair and challenging without changing a damn thing on the AI. It's really a slight speed issue, and I wouldn't want them to **** up the timing of the game's combat by just making the AI braindead attack bots. It's because they react to the player that the combat feel so good when you're playing it at high level, like the game is keeping its beat with you instead of you trying to keep the beat with it.

I think that may be the inherent problem with this genre. I don't play at your level, my lord, So that level of game-play intensity may forever elude me. However, I have become increasingly better at MGR specifically due to it's insane (unfair at times) gameplay. I think the next challenge for ninja theory in whatever they do next may be to explore this issue further. Balancing fair challenge with individually conforming learning curve that self adjusts to the rhythm of each player while still staying a step ahead, pushing them to improve. Bayonetta moved well in this direction. Yet, no one has perfected it yet.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I think that may be the inherent problem with this genre. I don't play at your level, my lord, So that level of game-play intensity may forever elude me. However, I have become increasingly better at MGR specifically due to it's insane (unfair at times) gameplay. I think the next challenge for ninja theory in whatever they do next may be to explore this issue further. Balancing fair challenge with individually conforming learning curve that self adjusts to the rhythm of each player while still staying a step ahead, pushing them to improve. Bayonetta moved well in this direction. Yet, no one has perfected it yet.

Yeah I wish you could play DmC on a decent PC with 20% turbo, I think you'd notice a drastic difference in enemy aggression and gameplay fluidity.

You've seen this video right, Hunter doesn't seem so idle to when you attack him with constant aggression, thats why those dodges feel so epic and natural. The AI looks for pauses/weaknesses in your combo strings, going as far as to analyze what buttons you are holding and trying to **** you up by doing attacks that may require unconventional hand movement.

 

[Tiran]

Yeah I wish you could play DmC on a decent PC with 20% turbo, I think you'd notice a drastic difference in enemy aggression and gameplay fluidity.

You've seen this video right, Hunter doesn't seem so idle to when you attack him with constant aggression, thats why those dodges feel so epic and natural. The AI looks for pauses/weaknesses in your combo strings, going as far as to analyze what buttons you are holding and trying to **** you up by doing attacks that may require unconventional hand movement.

Also, the speed is way high. Really, with a couple added combos to the hunters' arsenal, it would be perfect if the aggression began that way and increased even higher with more 360 attacks and aoe moves by the demon thrown in. Also, the stun animation should not last a set number of seconds, rather it should be dependent on the damage done. Like if you slam down with the axe, it should snap the monster right out of it with enough time for you to get in a few angel or rebellion swings in as it regroups. There was a moment where you went to town on it's face with aquila and Osiris and it just stared at you, stunned, after only two swing attempts with its knife. It was just a second longer than I'd like for DMD. I don't think enemies should stun in that mode just be interrupted and have to regroup with the active regroup animation taking the place of full on stun and fall.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Also, the speed is way high. Really, with a couple added combos to the hunters' arsenal, it would be perfect if the aggression began that way and increased even higher with more 360 attacks and aoe moves by the demon thrown in. Also, the stun animation should not last a set number of seconds, rather it should be dependent on the damage done. Like if you slam down with the axe, it should snap the monster right out of it with enough time for you to get in a few angel or rebellion swings in as it regroups. There was a moment where you went to town on it's face with aquila and Osiris and it just stared at you, stunned, after only two swing attempts with its knife. It was just a second longer than I'd like for DMD. I don't think enemies should stun in that mode just be interrupted and have to regroup with the active regroup animation taking the place of full on stun and fall.

Well, I think you're wanting DmC to be a different game than it really is, I play at that level, the level at which you admitted you don't even play, so why mess with the diffuculty, when its not something that even affects you. I make that fight look easier than it is, because I am attacking so aggressively, and using every possible technique to stun him: counters, special counters, tons of damage in quick succession. Why would you take out mega parries, you have to be skilled to execute them in battle and not take damage during the whole fight, play DmC as if you are not allowed to take damage, and its as hard as it needs to be. DmC is about being stylish and doing combos, and thats what sets it apart from all the other games. If there were more attacks you had to "react" to, it would take away from the one thing tha tmakes DmC special, doing combos and trying not to get interrupted.

The reason there are pauses is so that the player's combo does not get inerrupted if he successfully counters or evades the enemies: the ai has to attack during openings in your combo strings and not the other way around. Otherwise, you'd have what you hvae in MGR and every other action game, which is a ton of dodging and then attacking instead of it being a seamless attack/dodge/ attack attack/dodge, attack...

On a side note, the combat actually syncs to a 4/4 musically beat structure, that's why there is such a great sense of rhythm if you're playing aggressively. Enemies will not just blindly attack you here, the AI checks to make sure you have available options to keep the combo flowing if you successfully counter or evade.

I understand that you like the bosses in MGR, but that game isn't about doing combos, its about evading and than OP parrying everything. It's about finding small openings and taking advantage of them. Compare the following videos, and you'll see why I prefer DmC, because I feel that its more welcome to improvisation and different each time I play vs it being something I figure out how to do "this way" and than just do it that way only.

 

[Tiran]

Well, I think you're wanting DmC to be a different game than it really is, I play at that level, the level at which you admitted you don't even play, so why mess with the diffuculty, when its not something that even affects you. I make that fight look easier than it is, because I am attacking so aggressively, and using every possible technique to stun him: counters, special counters, tons of damage in quick succession. Why would you take out mega parries, you have to be skilled to execute them in battle and not take damage during the whole fight, play DmC as if you are not allowed to take damage, and its as hard as it needs to be. DmC is about being stylish and doing combos, and thats what sets it apart from all the other games. If there were more attacks you had to "react" to, it would take away from the one thing tha tmakes DmC special, doing combos and trying not to get interrupted.

The reason there are pauses is so that the player's combo does not get inerrupted if he successfully counters or evades the enemies: the ai has to attack during openings in your combo strings and not the other way around. Otherwise, you'd have what you hvae in MGR and every other action game, which is a ton of dodging and then attacking instead of it being a seamless attack/dodge/ attack attack/dodge, attack...

I'm telling you DmC AI is just fine for the way the game was designed, it was extensively tested and actually has a beat it flows to: 4/4 music structure, that's why there is such a great sense of rhythm if you're playing aggressively. Enemies will not just blindly attack you here, the AI checks to make sure you have available options to keep the combo flowing if you successfully counter or evade.

I agree the game is about combos, but I also believe this game is a smidgen too easy to challenge a high level player, or a player who wants to get to that level. However, I agree this game's system is the best for open ended combo mixing- that's not my issue. Combos or not, Devil may Cry games have always been extremely difficult. Although I can't combo with the best of them, but I can and have made it through a challenging action game and come out feeling fulfilled by the challenge I overcame. While this game isn't easy, it's lacking in the area of challenge that previous games had. I don't think it's unfair, or wrong to throw wishful criticism towards a great-but-not-perfect work of art. You proved, through a few minor tweaks, that little adjustments catering to a players' tastes and standards- are valid.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I agree the game is about combos, but I also believe this game is a smidgen too easy to challenge a high level player, or a player who wants to get to that level. However, I agree this game's system is the best for open ended combo mixing- that's not my issue. Combos or not, Devil may Cry games have always been extremely difficult. Although I can't combo with the best of them, but I can and have made it through a challenging action game and come out feeling fulfilled by the challenge I overcame. While this game isn't easy, it's lacking in the area of challenge that previous games had. I don't think it's unfair, or wrong to throw wishful criticism towards a great-but-not-perfect work of art. You proved, through a few minor tweaks, that little adjustments catering to a players' tastes and standards- are valid.

Well, what I mean is: if I just make the requirements for getting S ranks more stringent, and add no damage bonus, the game would be just as hard as the old ones, we're sorta disagreeing over what kind of difficulty DmC has, the old ones were harder but a lot of that was due to clunky controls and wonky camera work. I mean technically you can always keep improving your score and time in DmC, I doubt you've gotten good enough to SSS rank all the difficulties and bloody palace. or have you?

P.S., hopefully I'm not sounding too aggressive. Anyway, you're right, the game could use a minor minor bump in dificulty, but really that would be the 20% turbo boost, the game is really something else at that speed. It becomes a lot more fun, and engaging. Also, I'd loewr some damage values, debuff some more attacks, and make enemies devil trigger sooner. Do that, make score requirements tighter, and add a no damage bonus, and you'll have a fair but genuinely challenging game.

 

[Tiran]

Well, what I mean is: if I just make the requirements for getting S ranks more stringent, and add no damage bonus, the game would be just as hard as the old ones, we're sorta disagreeing over what kind of difficulty DmC has, the old ones were harder but a lot of that was due to clunky controls and wonky camera work. I mean technically you can always keep improving your score and time in DmC, I doubt you've gotten good enough to SSS rank all the difficulties and bloody palace. or have you?

P.S., hopefully I'm not sounding too aggressive. Anyway, you're right, the game could use a minor minor bump in dificulty, but really that would be the 20% turbo boost, the game is really something else at that speed. It becomes a lot more fun, and engaging. Also, I'd loewr some damage values, debuff some more attacks, and make enemies devil trigger sooner. Do that, make score requirements tighter, and add a no damage bonus, and you'll have a fair but genuinely challenging game.

Seriously, though... Be honest. A demonic prize fighter would be fun to fight. Just imagine- as Dante reaches Lilith's chamber, an eight foot robed fighter chomping on a fat cigar stomps out to challenge him. He looks down at the demon killer and smirks. The crowed roars as the fighter pulls of the robe and goes all Zangief/Balrog on you.

 

[The Final Offer]

Seriously, though... Be honest. A demonic prize fighter would be fun to fight. Just imagine- as Dante reaches Lilith's chamber, an eight foot robed fighter chomping on a fat cigar stomps out to challenge him. He looks down at the demon killer and smirks. The crowed roars as the fighter pulls of the robe and goes all Zangief/Balrog on you.

The better idea for the naysayers would be to integrate him into the Blood Palace.

I love characters that thrive off of their background stories.

If I were to place the guy into the story, he'd be treated like Agni and Rudra. You'd have to show him you're worthy enough of his power "Eryx" and on the way, you'd see Dante understanding how useful some of his moves are.

Dante unlocked "Bob and Weave". I'd love for Capcom to integrate boxing into Devil May Cry.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It was scrapped not for financial or time constraints but for stylistic reasons. They did not like this character conceptually. This shows something about the thinking that goes into the making of theses games by this studio. Due to lack of imagination, they thought the bosses that ended up in the game were better and more dynamic than this.

Not necessarily. Sometimes you have to think about how something will fit into the story. With all the antagonists that we did encounter during DmC, going after this guy would have been rather useless, since the Order's goal was to take out Mundus and all his support structures - the brainwashing Virility, and the vitriolic Raptor News Network. Fighting Lilith and Killing Face was as far from the main objective as they were willing to go, and Vergil was even able to get that to fit into his plan, because he was able to take out Mundus' heir.

He is a cool concept though.

 

[The Final Offer]

Not necessarily. Sometimes you have to think about how something will fit into the story. With all the antagonists that we did encounter during DmC, going after this guy would have been rather useless, since the Order's goal was to take out Mundus and all his support structures - the brainwashing Virility, and the vitriolic Raptor News Network. Fighting Lilith and Killing Face was as far from the main objective as they were willing to go, and Vergil was even able to get that to fit into his plan, because he was able to take out Mundus' heir.

He is a cool concept though.

Would've been sick if he was the bouncer at Lilth's Club.

 

[Chancey289]

The better idea for the naysayers would be to integrate him into the Blood Palace.

I love characters that thrive off of their background stories.

If I were to place the guy into the story, he'd be treated like Agni and Rudra. You'd have to show him you're worthy enough of his power "Eryx" and on the way, you'd see Dante understanding how useful some of his moves are.

Dante unlocked "Bob and Weave". I'd love for Capcom to integrate boxing into Devil May Cry.

In NT's developer diaries they had a bunch of different ideas and one was Dante being part of some underground fight club and doing boxing matches.

 

[The Final Offer]

In NT's developer diaries they had a bunch of different ideas and one was Dante being part of some underground fight club and doing boxing matches.

It's said that they drew from the Fight Club idea.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Would've been sick if he was the bouncer at Lilth's Club.

Possibly, but it would have been such a stretch for the narrative. If you have to bend the narrative to include something, you're doing it wrong. That's one of the first things I learned about writing - when a reader asks "why" your response should almost never be "because I wanted it in there". There has to be a deeper reasoning to it than some "rule of cool" thing.

For him to be some famous boxer, it would make little sense that he would be working the door at a nightclub for some extra cash. He could have been a patron at the time Dante showed up for Lilith, but then that would have detracted a bit from the battle with Lilith and Killing Face, unless of course they removed that fight entirely and the Bruiser acted as the boss of the nightclub. We already had the entertainment and crowd factor going on in the nightclub. Coulda worked.

 

[The Final Offer]

Possibly, but it would have been such a stretch for the narrative. If you have to bend the narrative to include something, you're doing it wrong. That's one of the first things I learned about writing - when a reader asks "why" your response should almost never be "because I wanted it in there". There has to be a deeper reasoning to it than some "rule of cool" thing.

For him to be some famous boxer, it would make little sense that he would be working the door at a nightclub for some extra cash. He could have been a patron at the time Dante showed up for Lilith, but then that would have detracted a bit from the battle with Lilith and Killing Face, unless of course they removed that fight entirely and the Bruiser acted as the boss of the nightclub. We already had the entertainment and crowd factor going on in the nightclub. Coulda worked.

"You ****ing with my manager, you're ****ing with my money!"

Boom, reason enough.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

"You ****ing with my manager, you're ****ing with my money!"

Boom, reason enough.

Yeah. Just not at the door.

Although making him the boss of the nightclub would also detract from showing Lilith's despicable nature, because we wouldn't see her using her mealticket (the baby) to try and kill Dante to earn more of Mundus' favor, and subsequently her saying she's "nothing without this brat". Although the latter can still probably hold true, since that was her response to Dante saying "I don't want to kill you or your child" and such.

 

[Tiran]

Yeah. Just not at the door.

Although making him the boss of the nightclub would also detract from showing Lilith's despicable nature, because we wouldn't see her using her mealticket (the baby) to try and kill Dante to earn more of Mundus' favor, and subsequently her saying she's "nothing without this brat". Although the latter can still probably hold true, since that was her response to Dante saying "I don't want to kill you or your child" and such.

First of all, not all the bosses have to be preplanned targets of the order, just demons of great power that get in their way. Not knowing what's coming next makes for great surprises in a story or game.

The club is where the rich and famous hobnob with demons, right? There you go. Besides, the point of limbo was to send powerful demons in the vicinity after you by alerting them to your presence. The heavyweight mma champion is in the club. Just as Dante reaches Lilith, a huge figure taps him on the shoulder from behind...