General DMC 5 Discussion

[DarkSlayer54]

Can enemies attack you off screen?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Can enemies attack you off screen?

They don't, actually. Went into a corner when the vanguards appeared, pulled the camera up on my butt, and even though they were close, they never attacked me from offscreen. I let it sit while I typed this up, didn't get attacked.

 

[berto]

Yeah, there's a lot of little elements of the Devil Breakers that just aren't really conducive to the player's benefit.

Like allowing you to switch freely, specially considering Nero has the D-pad totally empty. And it's not a early in the game thing. By now there's been plenty of confirmation that the mechanic stays as is.

 

[ShiningTempest]

^
That can be fixed on PC with mods but on console yeah you are stuck with this stupid.

 

[DarkSlayer54]

They don't, actually. Went into a corner when the vanguards appeared, pulled the camera up on my butt, and even though they were close, they never attacked me from offscreen. I let it sit while I typed this up, didn't get attacked.

That's great to hear. Very much a fan of forgiving mechanics.

 

[berto]

Small pro tip. If you want to hold your 3 charged bullets without having to hold on to the shoot button the only animation I've found that will not shoot after it's done is the dropkick. So charge, hold, run and release mid dropkick and you'll keep the 3 charge rounds.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Right. The way Itsuno describes it as the "Nero's arm breaks and he goes 'Aw crap!' and then shoves his arm down into the holster to pull out a new one" is totally well and good. That's like, the most interesting thing about the entire concept, that it's a special ability with a finite element to it, which not only creates a better balance between how and when you use it, but also those clutch moments. Yet, the idea that we can't decide which arm we'd like to use, either whenever or when one breaks, seems to be an aside from the excitement of them breaking.

However, we'll really have to wait and see how it all plays out in the end, because for now, in the demo people seemed to get by just fine, and we still don't have a greater understanding of what Itsuno means about creating loadouts for Breakers, so it might be entirely possible to (as I mentioned in another thread) create an arsenal of a single Breaker, if you don't mind the lack of variety and really like a specific one.

The guy calls it a glitch but it looks to me to be more of an oversight.

Honestly seems pretty intentional. I can easily access it too by just double jumping or Wall Hiking and its oh so convenient that health orbs are right there.

So I finally played the demo now that it's out on PS4. My hype had somewhat deflated when I realised it's virtually the same demo that was released on Xbox way back when, but I was still interested in knowing how it actually felt to play it myself.

For the most part, the game feels good. The only real gripes I had were that Nero doesn't feel that much evolved from 4 (I was literally playing DMC4:SE earlier funnily enough) and the Devil Breaker mechanic is bizarre and obtuse to use.

We've know for weeks it was going to be same demo but with new features. Did you miss those news?

EDIT: Going through again with an arsenal of nothing but Gerbera, and I did come across a Punchline, so it seems like the arsenal doesn't determine what arm drops you can find.

Also, my experience was way better once I jacked up the Camera Speed and the Camera Distance to their max.

Could be a demo thing who knows. There could be an argument made that certain DB's are placed in certain spots for specific reasons (like the game is trying to nudge you into using a specific DB for certain situations. I'm sure that is why a Gerbera can always be found in the lobby of the hotel so you can use it in the room. Did you still run into Overtures?

Yeah I don't know whose idea was it to make the default camera settings so ****. At least you can make a working camera system this time.

The thing that bothers me about the DBs is that the one you pick up last is the one you have quipped first. Sometimes the one I have equipped is the one I want so the fact that you can't send the new one to the back bothers me a bit.

That probably would make more sense. However, the easy solution on the player's part is to not pick it up if you don't want to use it. I never accidentally picked up a DB in any of my runs. I did however was comboing an Empusa and knocked it down to the ground and it landed on a DB (Overture) and broke it. Yeah enemies can destroy DBs if they step on it. Doesn't seem to be the case for bosses though or at the very least Goliath.

So it creates the conundrum of do I want to pick up this Devil Breaker or run the risk of letting a demon step on it. It does create new combat scenarios and on the fly thinking outside of chaining combos and not getting hit. If it went to the back immediately then duh you would pick it up before that could happen eliminating that variable in the gameplay sequence. This type of system works in the DB favor since each breaker are very simple and easy to use but offers a decent amount of utility and depth in their own way so we are less concerned about chaining combos and thus adding variables like managing DB, knowing when to pick one up, risking one getting destroyed, knowing when to break an arm for whatever purpose, working within your limitations or working around your limitations, more critical on the fly thinking, and in depth decision making. Ergo an immense layer of strategy and decision making that you really don't see in action games.

Yeah, there's a lot of little elements of the Devil Breakers that just aren't really conducive to the player's benefit.

That is true. I even made a an entire thread about it but after thinking it over for the months and finally being able to use the system I've grown to fully accept it and see its appeal (the journalists seem to enjoy it now) despite its design. Although it seems to be fine and its quite easy to get around its issues (was probably the intent of the system and not any oversights on the designers).

Small pro tip. If you want to hold your 3 charged bullets without having to hold on to the shoot button the only animation I've found that will not shoot after it's done is the dropkick. So charge, hold, run and release mid dropkick and you'll keep the 3 charge rounds.

Actually I recently discovered you can perform any melee attack and as long as you release at the start of the animation frames for those melee attacks it won't shoot fire off. I've done it with all of the DB actions and some of Red Queen's attacks.

 

[Goldsickle]

I hate it when some buttons remain unused, especially in an action game where you need as many buttons as you can for fluid, on the spot action.

The D-Pad could have been used to cycle through the Devil Breakers.

R2 could have been use as an instant Break Age command, instead of needing to hold Circle to charge and finger-yoga for when you wanna jump and perform a Break Age.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I hate it when some buttons remain unused, especially in an action game where you need as many buttons as you can for fluid, on the spot action.

The D-Pad could have been used to cycle through the Devil Breakers.

R2 could have been use as an instant Break Age command, instead of needing to hold Circle to charge and finger-yoga for when you wanna jump and perform a Break Age.

I can understand and agree with the D-pad thing but you want waste a button on what is a charge shot so it can be more instantaneous? That is not very good design especially since the Break Age are overpowered and comes with the risk of failure if you get hit or miss (unless if its Overture) to balance out the fact that they're overpowered.

I mean Nero is going to get a DT or something pertaining to the Devil Bringer/Yamato where will that button go if the one spare button is being used for an Instantaneous Charge Shot? This is still a demo so we won't have access to all of Nero's tools you know. There are clearly other features and functions they are hiding from us. Why not judge the full final product based on that?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Could be a demo thing who knows. There could be an argument made that certain DB's are placed in certain spots for specific reasons (like the game is trying to nudge you into using a specific DB for certain situations. I'm sure that is why a Gerbera can always be found in the lobby of the hotel so you can use it in the room. Did you still run into Overtures?

Yeah, I still ran into Overtures, too. There's a small glimmer of hope I'll retain that the pick-ups are just set for the demo build, and it isn't indicative of the supply we'll receive determined by our "magazine" (was using the wrong word~) in the final game. I could have sworn I heard Matt mention that it would be dependent on the magazine, but now I fear I might just be going crazy.

That is true. I even made a an entire thread about it but after thinking it over for the months and finally being able to use the system I've grown to fully accept it and see its appeal (the journalists seem to enjoy it now) despite its design. Although it seems to be fine and its quite easy to get around its issues (was probably the intent of the system and not any oversights on the designers).

It can seem somewhat innocuous when you're in the thick of it, that's for sure, just like how awful or outdated I feel certain other things are in DMC, this is just something to adapt to. However, I already ran into the problem that, because I'm not necessarily the one who decides what arm I'll use when, my Gerbera-only run made me try to do an Air Jockey with an Overture I had picked up during the Goliath fight. Because I can't just have the one I want, and am also forced to use the new one I just collected, it feels a lot like being a skilled enough player trying to make my own combos with Automatic on - I'm fighting the demons on the screen and the demons in the system that think they know what's best for me.

It's just a little bit frustrating because it's one of the easiest fixes in the entire world, and, as you quoted above me saying before, the problems presented are wholly apart from the experience Itsuno wants us to have. I'm fine with the arms breaking from overuse or misuse, but that "top of the deck" element is just like...not fun. To put it bluntly. At least PC players will get their own fix for it...

I hate to seem disrespectful or anything, but in a series that I love specifically because of how free-form and in control I am of how I am able to fight and tackle problems, the loss of options, or the ability to choose the order of those options, makes the game lose a bit of the flair I love, and I just imagine how much more engaging it would be for me to be able to decide which of the four arms I want to use at once.

 

[Goldsickle]

I mean Nero is going to get a DT or something pertaining to the Devil Bringer/Yamato where will that button go if the one spare button is being used for an Instantaneous Charge Shot?

Instant Hold?
I mean, both Break Age and Hold requires you to hold the Devil Breaker/Bringer button.

R2 was also unused back in DMC4.

 

[GinDan]

Spot TV Spannish SPOILS

 

[Stylish Nero]

Instant Hold?
I mean, both Break Age and Hold requires you to hold the Devil Breaker/Bringer button.

R2 was also unused back in DMC4.

You do know you can just remap the buttons in more comfortable spaces? I remapped the DB button to L1 and made the O button Break Away (I tried L2 but I found myself breaking 2 breakers at once if I held it for too long for some reason might be an issue with my controller or the input is very sensitive).

Works swimmingly. Just have issues trying not to accidentally press the Break Away button or usually end up forgetting where I remapped it or forget that my DB button is L1 and not a face button since Im so used to keeping the DB button on O in DMC4.

Also that was DMC4. This is DMC5 and it isn't out yet. A good chance that button will be used for something (probably DT or something).

Yeah, I still ran into Overtures, too. There's a small glimmer of hope I'll retain that the pick-ups are just set for the demo build, and it isn't indicative of the supply we'll receive determined by our "magazine" (was using the wrong word~) in the final game. I could have sworn I heard Matt mention that it would be dependent on the magazine, but now I fear I might just be going crazy.



It can seem somewhat innocuous when you're in the thick of it, that's for sure, just like how awful or outdated I feel certain other things are in DMC, this is just something to adapt to. However, I already ran into the problem that, because I'm not necessarily the one who decides what arm I'll use when, my Gerbera-only run made me try to do an Air Jockey with an Overture I had picked up during the Goliath fight. Because I can't just have the one I want, and am also forced to use the new one I just collected, it feels a lot like being a skilled enough player trying to make my own combos with Automatic on - I'm fighting the demons on the screen and the demons in the system that think they know what's best for me.

It's just a little bit frustrating because it's one of the easiest fixes in the entire world, and, as you quoted above me saying before, the problems presented are wholly apart from the experience Itsuno wants us to have. I'm fine with the arms breaking from overuse or misuse, but that "top of the deck" element is just like...not fun. To put it bluntly. At least PC players will get their own fix for it...

I hate to seem disrespectful or anything, but in a series that I love specifically because of how free-form and in control I am of how I am able to fight and tackle problems, the loss of options, or the ability to choose the order of those options, makes the game lose a bit of the flair I love, and I just imagine how much more engaging it would be for me to be able to decide which of the four arms I want to use at once.

It is no problem. You are an individual with their own unique perspective and preference on how you approach what is appealing to you or not.

The DB system is a very divisive system that will at the end of the day have 2 different parties arguing either for it or against it. How its designed has sparked endless debates that will probably continue years after DMC5 drop. I wouldn't be surprised if say DMC6 drops and abandons the system or greatly reform it to be more like Dante's playstyle people will still be debating over it.

So like as for the Gerbera-only run situation. How did that? Did you just happen to accidentally land on Overture while Jockey around. I never picked up a DB by accident (I've broken countless others by accident) and there has been a couple times where I've been knocked super close to Gerberas in the Goliath boss fight and never picked it up. It seems the trigger box to pick up a DB is very small. Also the solution to that is to well you know break the arm especially if you're doing a Gerbera only run and wont ever use it. Besides its the demo we should probably wait to see how its implemented in the final game especially since Matt did say the drops are based around your loadout. It wouldn't really work with 8 or 12 different breakers to have a set type of DBs each level especially since in the final game you have to unlock DBs as the game progresses so Mission 1 and 2 won't have say Ragtime or Tomboy when we first play it so what we won't pick those up in replays. I'm sure they left out the code that randomizes the DB by loadout due to time or some technically difficulties and probably didn't feel the urgency to include it in the demo since it would matter far more in the final game.

Whether it goes to the back or goes to the front

Also, while D-pad switching would be nice I guess but the final game will allow us to hold up to 8 Breakers at once allowing for more space and options.

Not only that but the DB would have to be rebalanced because you can do stuff like constantly freeze an enemy with Ragtime and switch to say Tomboy and wail on them with a supercharged Red Queen and switch back to RagTime to refreeze them when they break out and back to Tomboy or another offensive based DB and rinse and repeat or swap out Ragtime with Punchline to achieve a relatively similar effect. We really don't know the full capabilities and utility of all the DBs yet. Also, without getting into too much details there seems to be a lot design elements that modders will have to take into consideration. This isn't a simple bug fix, tweaking mechanics (like increased speed or infinite trickster dash) this is completely reworking a mechanic that the designers designed to be a very specific way with UI elements, in game customization options, and built in mechanics like Break Away to operate in a way that the designers never intended it to be and went out of their way to make sure it doesn't function like that and thus the surrounding code of the game will have to be drastically changed to work with what is basically a massive design overhaul. It won't be as simple as just mapping Breaker Switching to the D-pad but how outside systems affects each facet of the DB system. Its possible but may require a lot of work to have a fully functional mod.

We can in fact change the order of the DB loadouts at Nico's shop and why I originally argued for the idea to change it in the menu anytime Itsuno made the argument they want to reduce the time players spend in the menu and if we had that options players will endlessly spend time constantly rearranging the order. This will be determined by how often Nico's van appears in the levels.

 

[berto]

So, this is a thing, now.

Spot TV Spannish SPOILS

Italian, mate. Or Portuguese, but not Spanish.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

So like as for the Gerbera-only run situation. How did that? Did you just happen to accidentally land on Overture while Jockey around.

Nah, I intentionally picked it up, but my head was still in "O is a dodge" space, essentially because I haven't adapted yet, plus I had gone through the entire level thus far where "O is a dodge." So even though I deliberately picked it up, a part of me was still like "Danger! Hit that O button!"

Also, while D-pad switching would be nice I guess but the final game will allow us to hold up to 8 Breakers at once allowing for more space and options.

Ah, I didn't know about that.

Not only that but the DB would have to be rebalanced

Oh no, I don't mean to alter anything else about it. Let them break, obviously, just let me choose which one I actually want at any given time.

So, this is a thing, now.

Well...that's just dumb.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Oh no, I don't mean to alter anything else about it. Let them break, obviously, just let me choose which one I actually want at any given time.

No I mean the balance for the Breakers would be broken if that was the case. You can keep spamming Ragtime's Time Bubble move and go into other Breakers and back and forth. Granted its only an issue with Ragtime and perhaps the Buster Arm (the main issue with DMC4 enemy design was the fact a lot of the enemies were designed to counter the Buster so they implemented so many defense mechanisms that prevented players from spamming an enemy to death with endless Busters which led to enemy design in 4 not being in Dante's favor with the breaker system if players want to get the most of Nero's combat they will be less likely to spam Buster against the enemies but they also buffed Buster like it does some more damage especially the Super Buster and while performing a Super Buster Nero is now invincible during the animation whereas in DMC4 you could get knocked out of it) otherwise being able to switch Breakers wouldn't be any more OP than Dante.

I too have tons of reservations on the Breaker system but I need to see how the final product is with all 8 Breakers (especially the slots), the enemy design, boss design, the mission layout and how DB are distributed within Missions on certain difficulty levels and other assets that they add to Nero in the final product. Like will his DT affect the functionality of the Breaker System? How will the Devil Bringer come into the equation?

It seems to me Nero's two selling point are his Devil Breakers and his inevitable Devil Trigger (that is the name of his theme song apparently)

 

[berto]

Well...that's just dumb.

There's a little more to it than that. It make the cannon feel so trivial. The chronology has been a long standing fact of the series, and this is from Capcom themselves, it's the title of the only artbook ever translated. Even the new, updated, publishing is called that. I'd be more ok with it if they disposed of the anime while they were in a changing cannon mood.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I guess when Capcom initially said this was a sequel to 4 they actually meant it but claimed it take place after 2 as well. Clever play Capcom clever. Trying to have their cake and eat it too. How naughty.

Well to be fair DMC2 is so inconsequential and borderline filler you can place it before 1 and it would make as much sense.

 

[berto]

I guess when Capcom initially said this was a sequel to 4 they actually meant it but claimed it take place after 2 as well. Clever play Capcom clever. Trying to have their cake and eat it too. How naughty.

I'm pretty sure they specifically said the order was 31425 so this isn't a sly trick where they didn't say it outloud to keep people in the dark. This is a new alteration, not something they were thinking about from the start, otherwise why release the new artbook, at the end of January, as 3142.

 

[Goldsickle]

You do know you can just remap the buttons in more comfortable spaces?

I know that but remapping buttons does not fill in the empty blanks, just move them around.
I wish the developers would make use of all buttons.
Moves like Showdown or Maximum Bet could be pulled off without pressing two face buttons simultaneously.