Dmc dante vs DMC3 vergil

[TWOxACROSS]

Darkslayer, you should probably realize that real-life iaido, while fast, isn't nearly as powerful or quick as people like to think it is because of anime and games.

Iaido isn't necessarily a discipline for "quick, unseen strikes," it's a discipline for attacking while drawing the weapon, to protect the kenshi from dangers present from drawing a weapon normally and within vulnerable states (like sitting), and keeping the drawing of a weapon hidden. The last bit is probably as close as it comes to fictional iaido, because it's trying to attack without drawing attention to the fact that your weapon is out, and you intend to attack at all. It's really fancy, and beautiful to watch someone go through the katas, but it's nothing like how it's been glorified.

Iaido is a discipline specifically like that. Once the blade leaves the sheath though, it's used in a lot of ways just like a normal katana.

I really don't think any "from the sheath" strikes account for being the kind that are coupled with the strength to slice through a body. Yes, katana are very sharp, and have been known to cut cleanly through human-like targets, but those are notably almost always two-handed strikes.

Plus, while Vergil's Iaido is still very blindingly fast and whatnot, there's a great disconnect we see in his speed, because he could really even be attacking with the scabbard a lot faster than he does. It's the same weird speed variation we see with Dante using Rebellion, between his normal combos and his Million Stabs.

 

[Demi-fiend]

It's the same weird speed variation we see with Dante using Rebellion, between his normal combos and his Million Stabs.

Maybe that's why they had turbo mode (hard to deal with on DMD) in DMC3... so that Dante could appear "faster" during normal strikes.

That or they were too lazy to make an additional hard mode... maybe it's just another feature, like in SF Turbo. Who knows.

And you're right. Real-life Iaido is only somewhat similar to games like Samurai Showdown or DMC3 at the very most.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Maybe that's why they had turbo mode (hard to deal with on DMD) in DMC3... so that Dante could appear "faster" during normal strikes.

That or they were too lazy to make an additional hard mode... maybe it's just another feature, like in SF Turbo. Who knows.

Eh, it's most likely just a novelty, as much as playing as Super Dante or a different skin is, but this one also increases the difficulty in a small way because if you go through the entire game, the timing for things is suddenly different.

 

[darkslayer13]

*******sighhhhhhhhhhh*********

Then what makes you think that Vergil's strikes are "Faster Than Light" in the first place?

And, as TwoXAcross (that name is so hard to write... I'm just going to say "TXA") said, once you go faster than light, it no longer has mass, therefore it won't be able to do you any harm.

Fine, if a human can do it quickly, than a demon could obviously do it faster... just not so fast that it can escape DmC Dante.

DmC Dante has his Angel Warp, which is almost, if not just as fast as Vergil's Darkslayer and Iaido strike.

You can argue semantics all day, it wouldn't stop the Angel Warp itself from being less fast.

By the way, Vergil's recovery time is slow at best. As soon as he unsheathes Yamato, it doesn't matter if he uses a Darkslayer Warp to cancel out of said recovery time, Dante would still have no problem catching up to him due to his own tools at his disposal.

Not saying he'll win, but I'm certainly not going to say he'll definitely lose, either.

where is this rant coming from, i said nothing about any of this, i just said that iaido being faster then fighting with the sheath is a normal trait of iaido and not evidence than Vergil's attack speed while drawing the sword is due to Yamato's powers. did you read a single word from me about anything being faster then light. do you pay attention to who your quoting or do you just assume that there is just one person in the world who disagrees with you on anything. oh and the dramatic sigh is completely unnecessary. if this is to much effort for you you are free to stop participating at any time.
Vergil's normal movement speed isn't particularly impressive it's probably about the same as DMC Dante (maybe even less since Vergil doesn't have the Trickster style), it's a combination of teleportation and iaido that produces the impressive results. as a boss DMC Vergil's real talent is blocking everything you try to do if you don't time it perfectly.

oh and since you brought it up DmC Dante's Angel Dodge (which i'm assuming is what you are talking about since that is his only teleport move) isn't really comparable to Darkslayer style. Angel Dodge is a single short range evasive move that can only be used in a specific situation (after dodging while using an angel weapon), Darkslayer style is multiple teleport moves with significant range that can be used at any time. even if you think DmC Dante is stronger then DMC Vergil you have to admit DMC Vergil is better at teleportation.

Darkslayer, you should probably realize that real-life iaido, while fast, isn't nearly as powerful or quick as people like to think it is because of anime and games.

Iaido isn't necessarily a discipline for "quick, unseen strikes," it's a discipline for attacking while drawing the weapon, to protect the kenshi from dangers present from drawing a weapon normally and within vulnerable states (like sitting), and keeping the drawing of a weapon hidden. The last bit is probably as close as it comes to fictional iaido, because it's trying to attack without drawing attention to the fact that your weapon is out, and you intend to attack at all. It's really fancy, and beautiful to watch someone go through the katas, but it's nothing like how it's been glorified.

Iaido is a discipline specifically like that. Once the blade leaves the sheath though, it's used in a lot of ways just like a normal katana.

I really don't think any "from the sheath" strikes account for being the kind that are coupled with the strength to slice through a body. Yes, katana are very sharp, and have been known to cut cleanly through human-like targets, but those are notably almost always two-handed strikes.

Plus, while Vergil's Iaido is still very blindingly fast and whatnot, there's a great disconnect we see in his speed, because he could really even be attacking with the scabbard a lot faster than he does. It's the same weird speed variation we see with Dante using Rebellion, between his normal combos and his Million Stabs.

okay i might be exaggerating but the point is iaido is faster then beating someone with the sheath, and since Vergil is a fictional character the media depiction applies not the reality.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Vergil's normal movement speed isn't particularly impressive it's probably about the same as DMC Dante (maybe even less since Vergil doesn't have the Trickster style), it's a combination of teleportation and iaido that produces the impressive results. as a boss DMC Vergil's real talent is blocking everything you try to do if you don't time it perfectly.

oh and since you brought it up DmC Dante's Angel Dodge (which i'm assuming is what you are talking about since that is his only teleport move) isn't really comparable to Darkslayer style. Angel Dodge is a single short range evasive move that can only be used in a specific situation (after dodging while using an angel weapon), Darkslayer style is multiple teleport moves with significant range that can be used at any time. even if you think DmC Dante is stronger then DMC Vergil you have to admit DMC Vergil is better at teleportation.

Vergil's Tricks are nice, but I don't think they'd afford him a much of an edge over Dante's Angel Evasion, considering we have to realize they're both teleportation feats. Dante's is appended to a dodge (which a normal dodge has the capability to evade a lot, if not all, of Vergil's attacks), while Vergil's are "jumps" (Trick Up) or "drops." (Trick Down). In effect, their teleportation increases the speed.distance of a dodge or jump/fall.

Dante's other restriction isn't quite as important either, being in Angel Mode is a pretty easy thing to do. It's really more of a gameplay element of having to "switch" to the mode because of a lack of controls In reality, Dante is most likely always in all three modes (normal, angel, and demon) all at once.

okay i might be exaggerating but the point is iaido is faster then beating someone with the sheath.

Technically bonking with the sheath would be faster, since...it's the same arm-strength that would be used for iaido, without the added effort of having to reach for and pull out the katana That's what makes me think the speed of the iaido is a trait of Yamato.

 

[darkslayer13]

Vergil's Tricks are nice, but I don't think they'd afford him a much of an edge over Dante's Angel Evasion, considering we have to realize they're both teleportation feats. Dante's is appended to a dodge (which a normal dodge has the capability to evade a lot, if not all, of Vergil's attacks), while Vergil's are "jumps" (Trick Up) or "drops." (Trick Down). In effect, their teleportation increases the speed.distance of a dodge or jump/fall.

Dante's other restriction isn't quite as important either, being in Angel Mode is a pretty easy thing to do. It's really more of a gameplay element of having to "switch" to the mode because of a lack of controls In reality, Dante is most likely always in all three modes (normal, angel, and demon) all at once.




Technically bonking with the sheath would be faster, since...it's the same arm-strength that would be used for iaido, without the added effort of having to reach for and pull out the katana That's what makes me think the speed of the iaido is a trait of Yamato.

Darkslayer might not provide a big advantage by itself but it is a better teleportation skill then angel evade.

arm strength is not the only factor that affects speed. some motions are faster then others with the same strength. the speed of iaido is a trait of iaido in general. the amount of time it takes to put your hand on the hilt of the sword is not going to negate it's speed and drawing the sword and attacking are the same action so there is no loss of time from that ( that is the entire point of iaido).

 

[TWOxACROSS]

But see, there's the entire point that Dante could potentially and completely prevent Vergil's hand from reaching the grip of the Yamato. The act of the iaido itself may be fast, yes, but everything leading up to it isn't. Honestly, the entire point of Vergil bonking enemies in the first place is to give him the ample opportunity to reach for the Yamato to do some iaido.

And no, no matter what, iaido may be about drawing and attacking at the same time, but the blade still needs to completely clear the scabbard before a slice can be done. Iaido mitigates some of the time lost from drawing to adapting an attacking stance by making the attacking stance the drawing stance, but, there's still time that needs to be taken to draw.

In terms of attacking, bonking with the sheath will always be faster than performing iaido from a neutral standing position, just on the principal of iaido requiring an extra step to its entire attacking process. It's like the different between a jab and a straight.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Give it a minute while he tries to come up with an answer, TXA.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's kinda disappointing to think about, given how cool it is in anime and games, but iaido isn't really a set of skills that are useful after the outset of a fight. Repeatedly replacing a weapon in its cradle after every attack is a super-bad idea, same as it would be to keep holstering a firearm after firing it, while the firefight is still going on. Iaido is really most important for making sure that you can go on the offensive quickly and discretely without placing yourself under a considerable degree of risk.

Dante has more of the right idea, at least, because his weapons are ready to go pretty much the moment he puts his hand on it, without having to take it out of a protective covering like a sheath. Even then though, placing a weapon to rest while enemies are still around is never a good idea :/

At least they've got it right in the cutscenes

 

[Demi-fiend]

No kidding. I was just thinking about the draw/crossdraw a person could do while pistol-whipping someone before they fired in a "game-combo"sort of way.

I didn't think of putting it back though. Any situation where you put a weapon back is asking for trouble, even in a game. That's why they made it a taunt in DMC3.

It's probably also the reason why DmC Vergil's combo is considerably longer than the katana strikes in DMC3. It's like he's really fencing against an actual enemy, and not showing off just for the sake of doing so.

That's also why Ryu Hayabusa doesn't do his "blood-letting" move (the one where he flicks off the blood off his weapon) until after the fight and before he puts it back for certain until the next enemy encounter.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

At least they've got it right in the cutscenes

I really shouldn't even say this, because it's not right. Parrying edge-to-edge in a sword battle is one of the worst things you can do, because it chips, damages, and breaks the weapon. Makes a sword preeeeeetty bad at doing the one thing it's supposed to do - cut stuff. That's a huge reason why shields were important in medieval warfare.

At most, parrying with an edged weapon was about slapping the assailant's weapon aside, using the broadside of the blade. Not slamming edges head-on at each other >_<

Well, at least it's a bad idea with the type of swords Dante and Vergil use. Even if they're indestructible magical weapons, trying to fend off the force of someone's attack with the smallest surface area on the weapon is a silly thing to try. But, maybe the Sons of Sparda have impeccable balance and dexterity to keep their swords held correctly during a parry

 

[Demi-fiend]

Makes a sword preeeeeetty bad at doing the one thing it's supposed to do - cut stuff. That's a huge reason why shields were important in medieval warfare.

At most, parrying with an edged weapon was about slapping the assailant's weapon aside, using the broadside of the blade. Not slamming edges head-on at each other >_<

See, this isn't just about games, but it mostly came from movies due to the fact that (I'm assuming) that it looked more dynamic on film. It's only thanks to modern games (and a very few retro ones like the original Jordan Mechner PoP) that this mechanic can be replicated through gameplay.

Therefore, shields fell out of use because they just didn't look that stylish during gameplay, and are only used in games like Dark Souls to make the combat more "accurate")

I actually didn't think of the "edge-to-edge" thing until you brought it up and it reminded me of something I read in an e-book about vampire ninjas in Tokyo (don't laugh, you know it's the most awesomest-sounding idea ever) in a book called "The Kensei". To tell you the truth, it was actually a pretty good book despite the historical ninjutsu inaccuracies. It was an enjoyable read, and that's all I could ask for.

Anyway, it was that book that first introduced me to the truth of "edge-to-edge"combat. It was a bad idea, and it would be better to dodge your opponent's blade whenever possible.

And when you mentioned the "gun-drawing" thing, it reminded me of Breaking Bad, when Walter had to buy an illegal arm and the "salesman" said that you shouldn't attempt a crossdraw unless you were sitting down. Good scene, overall.

One more thing: it looks like your friend decided not to answer. See, this is why I don't like debating with people who refuse to consider alternate possibilities (you know who I'm talking about). In the end, it gives them absolutely zero ground to stand on.

You've read my posts, so you know that this isn't the case with me, I was very much willing to consider either outcome, or even a third possibility (a draw, for example) in order to move this conversation along. It gets tiring dealing with people who can only see things their way.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I like to think Dragon's Dogma made shields stylish again. I ran through that game maining sword and board, and I loved every moment of it. They had a Just Guard system that would negate the stamina loss from a block while knocking the enemy off-balance, while also putting you into a neutral position. Coupled with enchantment spells, your shield could produce an elemental blast when you blocked, and like, if you Just Guard with a fire enchantment, the blast with throw the enemy in the air, and then they get juggled by fireballs shot out of your shield. Then there were the actual shield skills...

​

I guess it's really no surprise since the game is made by Itsuno and his team ​

My crowning moment from Dragon's Dogma will always be when I was fighting a wyvern. When it gets low on health, it'll try to flap its wings several times to blow you away, as each flap staggers you and pushes you back quite a bit. I Just Guarded every flap and inched in on him for a Stinger-like strike right into his heart.

But Demon's/Dark Souls did really help me to remember the importance of a shield, just in practical combat aspects. Too bad they work like sh!t against most of the bosses :/

 

[darkslayer13]

But see, there's the entire point that Dante could potentially and completely prevent Vergil's hand from reaching the grip of the Yamato. The act of the iaido itself may be fast, yes, but everything leading up to it isn't. Honestly, the entire point of Vergil bonking enemies in the first place is to give him the ample opportunity to reach for the Yamato to do some iaido.

And no, no matter what, iaido may be about drawing and attacking at the same time, but the blade still needs to completely clear the scabbard before a slice can be done. Iaido mitigates some of the time lost from drawing to adapting an attacking stance by making the attacking stance the drawing stance, but, there's still time that needs to be taken to draw.

In terms of attacking, bonking with the sheath will always be faster than performing iaido from a neutral standing position, just on the principal of iaido requiring an extra step to its entire attacking process. It's like the different between a jab and a straight.

that extra step doesn't take a lot of time (i can move my hand from my right side to my left in less then a second and i am a normal human with no martial arts training or athletic ability so i think a half demon iaido expert could manage it) so if the iaido attack is fast enough then it could make up for the (incredibly small) difference. the question here shouldn't be why is Vergil's iaido so fast (the speed for some of the normal attacks might be a bit fast for a normal human but they aren't excessive for a half-demon) but why are his attacks with the sheath so slow. it probably has something to do with the extra weight of the sheath and the fact that that isn't how you are supposed to use a katana.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well everyone knows how to bonk something, and the scabbard isn't really that much more of an encumbrance. Its weight certainly wouldn't be a hindrance to someone like Vergil. I'm not sure Vergil could be considered a iaido expert, though, because it's never mentioned in any material, and we still don't know if that's Vergil's traits, or the Yamato's. I'm inclined to think it's the Yamato, since Dante, a man who has never effectively used the Yamato in his life (aside from a three seconds swinging it like any sword), was able to perfectly replicate some iaido techniques in DMC4. Either way, it's a moot point, but not exactly one worth arguing.

The bigger problem is that DmC Dante has speed on par with Vergil when it comes to that hand-based dexterity he uses for reaching for the Yamato. So Dante could spend portions of the fight just preventing the iaido from taking place. I would also still like to point out that while his iaido is indeed fast, trying to consistently do it in the middle of a fight with a very aggressive individual is a poor idea for all the reasons I stated before about iaido not being a discipline to use in the middle of a fight. Vergil could get a lucky slice off right at the beginning, but there's no telling how Dante could defend against it, and from there on, Vergil would need to keep his weapon out and at the ready.

 

[darkslayer13]

Well everyone knows how to bonk something, and the scabbard isn't really that much more of an encumbrance. Its weight certainly wouldn't be a hindrance to someone like Vergil. I'm not sure Vergil could be considered a iaido expert, though, because it's never mentioned in any material, and we still don't know if that's Vergil's traits, or the Yamato's. I'm inclined to think it's the Yamato, since Dante, a man who has never effectively used the Yamato in his life (aside from a three seconds swinging it like any sword), was able to perfectly replicate some iaido techniques in DMC4. Either way, it's a moot point, but not exactly one worth arguing.

The bigger problem is that DmC Dante has speed on par with Vergil when it comes to that hand-based dexterity he uses for reaching for the Yamato. So Dante could spend portions of the fight just preventing the iaido from taking place. I would also still like to point out that while his iaido is indeed fast, trying to consistently do it in the middle of a fight with a very aggressive individual is a poor idea for all the reasons I stated before about iaido not being a discipline to use in the middle of a fight. Vergil could get a lucky slice off right at the beginning, but there's no telling how Dante could defend against it, and from there on, Vergil would need to keep his weapon out and at the ready.

it seems like a bad idea but Vergil was able to beat DMC Dante the first time and as Nelo Angelo he beat Dante for the first time. in fact i can't recall a single time we have ever seen Vergil lose his first fight with someone on screen. he kills his opponent after the first fight or they come back and beat him later but they never beat him that first time. DMC Dante who is theoretically supposed to be about equal to DMC Vergil took three tries both times so i think DmC Dante would probably take 5 or 6 ( and that is just because he has a human heart for some odd reason. if it weren't for that i think the fight would probably look like Vergil's fight against Beowulf)

oh and while gameplay doesn't let Vergil ( or Dante ) keep his sword out he is aware of the concept in cutscenes so if iaido doesn't work he can still fight and both DMC twins are a lot faster in their cutscene battles with each other then in gameplay. ( while DmC Dante's cutscene speed seems to be about the same as his gameplay speed which seems to be slightly slower then DMC Dante's gameplay speed)

 

[TWOxACROSS]

it seems like a bad idea but Vergil was able to beat DMC Dante the first time and as Nelo Angelo he beat Dante for the first time. in fact i can't recall a single time we have ever seen Vergil lose his first fight with someone on screen. he kills his opponent after the first fight or they come back and beat him later but they never beat him that first time. DMC Dante who is theoretically supposed to be about equal to DMC Vergil took three tries both times so i think DmC Dante would probably take 5 or 6 ( and that is just because he has a human heart for some odd reason. if it weren't for that i think the fight would probably look like Vergil's fight against Beowulf)

oh and while gameplay doesn't let Vergil ( or Dante ) keep his sword out he is aware of the concept in cutscenes so if iaido doesn't work he can still fight and both DMC twins are a lot faster in their cutscene battles with each other then in gameplay. ( while DmC Dante's cutscene speed seems to be about the same as his gameplay speed which seems to be slightly slower then DMC Dante's gameplay speed)

Well, the first time Dante apparently wasn't up to the same level as Vergil. The second time they were interrupted mid-fight by Jester, and the third time they were finally left to themselves, uninterrupted, and generally on the same level.

Nelo Angelo doesn't count, either, since this is only regarding Vergil in DMC3 (hence the apparent title of the thread )

And yeah, I mentioned that the DMC3 cutscenes had it more right

Also, I don't know where you're getting your gauge for that stuff with DmC's "speed," since we don't actually see Dante do any fighting that isn't part of gameplay. One of the few times he's swung Rebellion in a cutscene was when...

He chopped through the bars on the rolling ferris wheel to get his coat (pretty damn fast)
He parried the Hunter's attack and tossed him clear out of the fun house (shown in slow motion). This might also be another feat of strength *shrug*
He sliced through Mundy's soul (pretty damn fast, which ends up in slow motion right after the slice)
He and Vergil clashed for a moment before their final battle (which ends up in slow motion right at the clash)

...there's no evidence to support that DmC Dante does not have the speed his classic counterpart does; from being able to shoot E&I as fast as the classic, to getting fully dressed within like...what...? Two seconds, while his trailer was flying through the air.

And regarding the gameplay speed, ChaserTech and MarioTaz did a comparison video, and it turns out that DmC's attacks are pretty much the same speed (even a little faster), but DmC also has some very slight pauses before the next step in a combo goes through, which accounts for why an overall combo takes slightly longer to get out. Some attacks also just last longer (like DmC's version of Prop Shredder).

 

[Stylish Nero]

So I realized something.

Since in Vergil's DF DLC it shows or strongly hints at the fact that Dante's/Vergil's DT are linked to their amulets so when Vergil lost his amulet he couldn't perform his DT so the same could be for Dante since the amulet was key to him obtaining his DT sooooo if they lose their amulets (or have it separated from them) or have it destroyed (which might be impossible) they lose their ability to access their Devil Triggers....meaning if Vergil separates Dante from his amulet like he did DMC Dante in DMC3 Vergil will have a better change of beating him.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

So I realized something.

Since in Vergil's DF DLC it shows or strongly hints at the fact that Dante's/Vergil's DT are linked to their amulets so when Vergil lost his amulet he couldn't perform his DT so the same could be for Dante since the amulet was key to him obtaining his DT sooooo if they lose their amulets (or have it separated from them) or have it destroyed (which might be impossible) they lose their ability to access their Devil Triggers....meaning if Vergil separates Dante from his amulet like he did DMC Dante in DMC3 Vergil will have a better change of beating him.

I don't think that is the case.

If my theory is correct, then NTVergil's dobbelganger is a manifestation of his demonic powers. And the dobbelganger could not controll or take over NTVergil because he was not weak enough.
Similar to Naruto where Naruto and Sasuke had someone inside them (Orochimaru and Kyubi), and only when the two hosts were exhausted or out of energy did the things within them take over.
This is kinda the case too with Bleach's Kurosaki Ichigo, which is where i believe dobbelganger concept came from.
Whenever Ichigo was weak or was near death, HollowIchigo took over.

So with that said, Dobbelganger saw a opportunity to take over NTVergil. And he did, he took all the powers.
I think the amulet being lost represented the loss of power.

Doubt that there is any power given to NTVergil by the amulet.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I don't think that is the case.

If my theory is correct, then NTVergil's dobbelganger is a manifestation of his demonic powers. And the dobbelganger could not controll or take over NTVergil because he was not weak enough.
Similar to Naruto where Naruto and Sasuke had someone inside them (Orochimaru and Kyubi), and only when the two hosts were exhausted or out of energy did the things within them take over.
This is kinda the case too with Bleach's Kurosaki Ichigo, which is where i believe dobbelganger concept came from.
Whenever Ichigo was weak or was near death, HollowIchigo took over.

So with that said, Dobbelganger saw a opportunity to take over NTVergil. And he did, he took all the powers.
I think the amulet being lost represented the loss of power.

Doubt that there is any power given to NTVergil by the amulet.

Hmmm....never thought of it like that.

Another evidence that DmC borrowed from Bleach (A JAPANESE ANIME).