Devil May Cry Retrospective - The Gaming Brit

[Macabre]

I haven't seen them. Probably not going to either.

Unfair enough.

 

[ZeroLove]

Unfair enough.

Hehe, why unfair?

 

[Macabre]

Hehe, why unfair?

Well, you seem to have a pretty even opinion of Chuck so far, what with liking one video and disliking the other, so really your enjoyment of the rest of his work could go either way. You could be cheating yourself by passing him by, but there's no problem in you doing so.

Nothing fancy.

 

[ZeroLove]

Well, you seem to have a pretty even opinion of Chuck so far, what with liking one video and disliking the other, so really your enjoyment of the rest of his work could go either way. You could be cheating yourself by passing him by, but there's no problem in you doing so.

Nothing fancy.

I mostly just watch these videos for entertainment sake. These were about Devil May Cry and I only watched them because they were convinient.

 

[Macabre]

I mostly just watch these videos for entertainment sake. These were about Devil May Cry and I only watched them because they were convinient.

Come on, there's more to life than Devil May Cry. There's all the other things, like...

...the other things.

 

[ZeroLove]

Come on, there's more to life than Devil May Cry. There's all the other things, like...

...the other things.

If I'm bored someday, I might.

 

[V's patron]

I just thought I'd resurrect this thread seeing as Charlie has managed to crank out his perspective on DmC and put a little capstone on his retrospective.

I'm actually very fond of Charlie Cade. While he might not do the most thorough research on everything he says, his commentary is usually spot on from a gameplay and storytelling perspective. It doesn't hurt that he's genuinely funny and manages to play off his dry monotone delivery and making it compliment his comical moments. I love guys like Jontron, but sometimes the manic style is a little too much.

His Metroid: Other M Analysis is really something to behold too.

I thought it was a great critique. I disagree with the "iconic universe" comment since I don't feel the setting itself was remember-able but that feels like a nitpick.

 

[Macabre]

It certainly had it's elements that were all it's own. The focus on gothic architecture which is inspired by real locations, the flamboyant tone, the weapons made from the souls of bosses, and of course the protagonist's appearance.

Despite all that's been said, taking away Dante's appearance is like taking the coat, hat and whip away from Indiana Jones.

 

[V's patron]

It certainly had it's elements that were all it's own. The focus on gothic architecture which is inspired by real locations, the flamboyant tone, the weapons made from the souls of bosses, and of course the protagonist's appearance.

Despite all that's been said, taking away Dante's appearance is like taking the coat, hat and whip away from Indiana Jones.

my bad man, When i was replying i was thinking more about the world as a whole outside of the secluded areas we have seen than the areas themselves. I wasn't convinced when they said that Dante lived in "Modern Day North America" but that might be a nitpick.

There are other problems i had with it since i dont exactly agree with his views on the differences between the two dantes or DMC4 but i thought his critique was sound.

I just don't feel its necessary from a design perspective if you wanted to do a scruffier Dante that was broken down from the experiments there might have an easier way to blend this idea with Dante's regular appearance without going so far as the drastic change that NT did. I think the character design of Heine Rammstein from the manga Stray dogs;Howling in the dark might have been a good way to accomplish what i was talking about.

 

[Alektus]

I do feel he didn't give DmC adequate credit in some areas, like how it's simplified combat makes the game more enticing for the new generation of gamers who are used to constant hand holding and...well, it made people interested in the franchise again and caused the HD Collection's sales to skyrocket. That's good.

You know, I feeI could really like you. I have been a lurker on these forums for some time and I see you comment a lot and some times you come off really pompous like and other times you seem like a really good and intelligent person. I really wish you would make up your mind lol. But I guess the purpose of this message is to basically say that although I don't always agree with you, I respect you. A bit off topic I know but please forgive me, I needed to say that before I forget.

 

[Macabre]

my bad man, When i was replying i was thinking more about the world as a whole outside of the secluded areas we have seen than the areas themselves. I wasn't convinced when they said that Dante lived in "Modern Day North America" but that might be a nitpick.

That's easily something which could have been remedied in a main series sequel though. No reason you couldn't explore a gothic castle based on the Fortress of the Cathars, then get warped temporarily to the middle of Wisconsin Suburbia to fight The Fungi from Yuggoth. Hell, it's Devil May Cry; it's a series so ludicrous and so faintly defined that any element could be thrown in the melting pot and it'd work.

I just don't feel its necessary from a design perspective if you wanted to do a scruffier Dante that was broken down from the experiments there might have an easier way to blend this idea with Dante's regular appearance without going so far as the drastic change that NT did. I think the character design of Heine Rammstein from the manga Stray dogs;Howling in the dark might have been a good way to accomplish what i was talking about.

I think calling him Dante was a bad move. I know I know, market recognition, but they could have had their "darker" take on the franchise and still included an enigmatic mentor character modelled after Classic Dante. You know, do what 4 was trying to do before their production got axed in half.

It's really just a question of execution. Any idea, even a horribly bad one, can be proven by execution.

 

[V's patron]

That's easily something which could have been remedied in a main series sequel though. No reason you couldn't explore a gothic castle based on the Fortress of the Cathars, then get warped temporarily to the middle of Wisconsin Suburbia to fight The Fungi from Yuggoth. Hell, it's Devil May Cry; it's a series so ludicrous and so faintly defined that any element could be thrown in the melting pot and it'd work.



I think calling him Dante was a bad move. I know I know, market recognition, but they could have had their "darker" take on the franchise and still included an enigmatic mentor character modelled after Classic Dante. You know, do what 4 was trying to do before their production got axed in half.

It's really just a question of execution. Any idea, even a horribly bad one, can be proven by execution.

I'm not saying its a big complaint or a reason big enough why it needed to be rebooted, it was just something that i noticed and it bothered me so no worries.

I think in general it would have been better as a new Ip because of less baggage.

I think the problem with your idea would be it would have just been a repeat of 4 than because you already have that dynamic with Nero and Dante(ideally). Unless your advocating they give another character in the reboot Dante's old mannerisms which would be problematic since they have more connection to the old one than the new one.

 

[Macabre]

I think the problem with your idea would be it would have just been a repeat of 4 than because you already have that dynamic with Nero and Dante(ideally). Unless your advocating they give another character in the reboot Dante's old mannerisms which would be problematic since they have more connection to the old one than the new one.

The thing is that for the meat of 4, Dante is more of a murderous pest to Nero who is cocking things up as he tries to investigate all the weirdness that is happening around Fortuna. It's hardly like the game reflects a mentor/student relationship between them, so a sequel which went with that notion probably wouldn't be stepping on 4's toes.

And if anything they made Etnad too much like Dante and not enough like this guy:

That looks like a guy who murdered his matron at the orphanage and has spent most of his life getting stomped on by riot cops. Not this feeble insult-slinging perfect-faced wanker:

 

[V's patron]

The thing is that for the meat of 4, Dante is more of a murderous pest to Nero who is cocking things up as he tries to investigate all the weirdness that is happening around Fortuna. It's hardly like the game reflects a mentor/student relationship between them, so a sequel which went with that notion probably wouldn't be stepping on 4's toes.

And if anything they made Etnad too much like Dante and not enough like this guy:

That looks like a guy who murdered his matron at the orphanage and has spent most of his life getting stomped on by riot cops. Not this feeble insult-slinging perfect-faced wanker:

That reminds me of why i dislike 4 and the anime because both of them were just bad fillers that dont really advance the plot or individual character developments of the franchise. There were some cool ideas like the Lady and Trish partnership, the instability of the underworld, Dante's relationship with Patty or him trying to figure out what to do with his life after defeating mundus but none of that was ever executed well.

I agree in the sense that it would have been good to actually play through that or the incidents that Bob Bardas was talking about because it does give a sense of Dante's struggles growing up and provide a chance for character development because Dante letting go or overcoming his past is more effective when the past is shown.

 

[Macabre]

The game really needed scenes with normal people interacting with Etnad, so you could understand the greater impact his actions were having on the world and whether or not he should even care about helping them. Even if it's people shouting and heckling him, or he takes a second to help a bystander who's in dire straits, it informs us of the bigger world surrounding the character and gives us a better impression of his empathy.

We never see the ramifications of Dante taking out the bosses either. Surely there'd be more people taking issue with all the weird crap going on once Virility stopped being available (And a massive amount of employees without jobs anymore), or people opening their eyes a little in the wake of Bob's defeat. I know that the scope of the game is intentionally narrow to focus on the three main characters, but when the world surrounding your characters is this empty, it implies a kind of sociopathy in the writing. I don't know these people who my actions are effecting, so why should I care?

 

[V's patron]

The game really needed scenes with normal people interacting with Etnad, so you could understand the greater impact his actions were having on the world and whether or not he should even care about helping them. Even if it's people shouting and heckling him, or he takes a second to help a bystander who's in dire straits, it informs us of the bigger world surrounding the character and gives us a better impression of his empathy.

We never see the ramifications of Dante taking out the bosses either. Surely there'd be more people taking issue with all the weird crap going on once Virility stopped being available (And a massive amount of employees without jobs anymore), or people opening their eyes a little in the wake of Bob's defeat. I know that the scope of the game is intentionally narrow to focus on the three main characters, but when the world surrounding your characters is this empty, it implies a kind of sociopathy in the writing. I don't know these people who my actions are effecting, so why should I care?

I would have liked the game to have more of a open world level design because it would facilitate what are you talking about and would say Dante's role as a freedom fighter because it allows you to take side missions that don't necessarily advances Vergil's plan but allows us to see the world as a whole.

 

[Macabre]

I would have liked the game to have more of a open world level design because it would facilitate what are you talking about and would say Dante's role as a freedom fighter because it allows you to take side missions that don't necessarily advances Vergil's plan but allows us to see the world as a whole.

I dunno, that seems like it would be too unlike Devil May Cry, and too much like plenty of other Sandbox games where you play an insurgent (Red Faction: Guerilla, Saboteur, et al). Not that I wouldn't want to play it, but I like the DMC series's tight focus on linear game design. It's certainly easier to make an environment of oppression work in a Sandbox game, but I still think it's possible to make it legitimately work in a linear one, even if NT failed to do so.

Besides, I already have a vastly superior sand box game where you play a once happy-go-lucky protagonist transformed into an edgy punk, thank you.

It's certainly more mature than DmC.

 

[TheJoy]

I dunno, that seems like it would be too unlike Devil May Cry, and too much like plenty of other Sandbox games where you play an insurgent (Red Faction: Guerilla, Saboteur, et al). Not that I wouldn't want to play it, but I like the DMC series's tight focus on linear game design. It's certainly easier to make an environment of oppression work in a Sandbox game, but I still think it's possible to make it legitimately work in a linear one, even if NT failed to do so.

I don't know, Ninja Theory already decided to pull away from the original source material, so i don't see why DmC couldn't of had some open world elements. They were already using a jumping between worlds mechanic, why not incorporate that into the story.

There could of been moments of down time when DmC Dante was with his brother. During that time, you could lave the hideout and explore the out side world a bit. Make him wear his hood up, wear a disguise or something, so the cameras don't recognise him. As the story progresses, the area you're exploring could change, maybe see and hear the news changing from the window of a tv shop...or something. The conversations of people change. You could just press X next to them and see some text dialog, like in old Capcom games.

Then to make sure it doesn't drag, have him save people from demons braking into the normal world. That could of made use of Kat. She could help him seal the the barrier between purgatory and the normal world using her spray on glyphs.

Just an idea. (Probably a stupid one) But i hope you get what i mean.
Sorry, maybe this should continue in another tread.

 

[V's patron]

I don't know, Ninja Theory already decided to pull away from the original source material, so i don't see why DmC couldn't of had some open world elements. They were already using a jumping between worlds mechanic, why not incorporate that into the story.

There could of been moments of down time when DmC Dante was with his brother. During that time, you could lave the hideout and explore the out side world a bit. Make him wear his hood up, wear a disguise or something, so the cameras don't recognise him. As the story progresses, the area you're exploring could change, maybe see and hear the news changing from the window of a tv shop...or something. The conversations of people change. You could just press X next to them and see some text dialog, like in old Capcom games.

Then to make sure it doesn't drag, have him save people from demons braking into the normal world. That could of made use of Kat. She could help him seal the the barrier between purgatory and the normal world using her spray on glyphs.

Just an idea. (Probably a stupid one) But i hope you get what i mean.
Sorry, maybe this should continue in another tread.

these are some good ideas and i wished NT experimented more with both the story and the gameplay. Its not that they made changes, its just they didnt back them to the wall or fully fleshed them out that people disliked.

I dunno, that seems like it would be too unlike Devil May Cry, and too much like plenty of other Sandbox games where you play an insurgent (Red Faction: Guerilla, Saboteur, et al). Not that I wouldn't want to play it, but I like the DMC series's tight focus on linear game design. It's certainly easier to make an environment of oppression work in a Sandbox game, but I still think it's possible to make it legitimately work in a linear one, even if NT failed to do so.

Besides, I already have a vastly superior sand box game where you play a once happy-go-lucky protagonist transformed into an edgy punk, thank you.

It's certainly more mature than DmC.

Fair enough.

I would say jak 2 has a better sense of world-building as haven City feels like a real place and there is better dialogue/slightly more developed characters but I dont feel its any more mature than DmC as a whole.

I agree with your assessment that Etnad should be interacting with regular people but he should be seeing the dark side of humanity as well. Having him deal with man's inhumanity to man would have helped sell us on what Mundus/vergil was trying to say at the end.