Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Heh. Other than Royal Guard, I see no other real gameplay application for it. Cancels (of any type) can just as easily be done on 24 fps if the developers know what they're doing.
Are they still working on DmC?
- Thread starter Nelo The Great
- Start date
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Well, like I had mentioned to berto - it's only a problem if the game required 60fps reaction time to 30fps animations. In DmC, the windows aren't as "1-frame narrow" as in DMC3 and 4.
Parrying in DmC is akin to Just Guarding in the classics anyway, requiring a hit to land on just the right frames of an enemy's attack. Demon Evade is similar as well. Those all work as intended within the confines of a 30fps action game.
Single frame advantages aren't really even a necessary thing in a hack 'n' slash, just in Fighters where they originated from. The player skill is supposed to be the one thing that sets one apart from his opponents. In an action game, however, the system needs to be accommodating enough so players can just actually do sh!t. Doting on a selective number of high-caliber players' hubris is entirely unnecessary.
It's sorta the same thing with difficulty levels, which is part of the reason why DMC stayed a niche little franchise and was outsold leagues by Capcom's other best sellers - it alienated the average player a little too well :/
Parrying in DmC is akin to Just Guarding in the classics anyway, requiring a hit to land on just the right frames of an enemy's attack. Demon Evade is similar as well. Those all work as intended within the confines of a 30fps action game.
Single frame advantages aren't really even a necessary thing in a hack 'n' slash, just in Fighters where they originated from. The player skill is supposed to be the one thing that sets one apart from his opponents. In an action game, however, the system needs to be accommodating enough so players can just actually do sh!t. Doting on a selective number of high-caliber players' hubris is entirely unnecessary.
It's sorta the same thing with difficulty levels, which is part of the reason why DMC stayed a niche little franchise and was outsold leagues by Capcom's other best sellers - it alienated the average player a little too well :/
Tiran
The great pretender.
I'd like to interject... This game was built on a 60 fps base and controller input. It's just that the refresh rate of the display on-screen was locked on consoles to 30 fps. The game they made was a full 60 fps game scaled back to 30 on consoles. This information was given way back at a Gamescom interview by Mo-Mota-Moto-uhh... Motohide Eshiro (Yeah, that's right...I think.) himself. That's why the inputs are still so twitch-precise.
Stylish Nero
We Dem Boys!!
Players can do sh!t.......they just have to actually try to learn the mechanics.
Plus just because you can't master the mechanics and pull off high end combos like the pros or people who took the time and effort to learn doesn't mean you can't still have fun.
I wouldn't call DMC a niche franchise. Hack N Slashes are a niche genre but the fact remains that DMC making millions something other hack and slash fails to do (except God of War) even hack n slash spin offs of far more popular and well revered series don't make as much money.
Fact is DMC is one of Capcom's top franchises and the other 4 have reasons have being more popular due to being out far longer or have some advantage.
I mean isn't odd that DMC4, a game that exemplifies this example of "alienating players" and "creating a set bar of skill" sold 2.8 million units and is in Capcom top 10 best selling games. DMC wasn't as niche as you claim it is. Its relatively the genre where the only titles that succeeds where Devil May Cry and God of War (as well as Onimusha in the past).
Nelo The Great
Well-known Member
And i wasn't implying capcom would make it
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Well...then it still worked, so I don't see what the damn problem is other than people whining about a preference, which didn't matter in the end.
Of course people can still have fun, but I'm not talking about high-end combos, that's just normal for the game. Trying to cater specifically to the smaller number of high-end players who can perform single-frame exploits, however, is a slightly terrible idea, and that's what a lot of DmC's detractors cried for - "You're making it easy for people!" (that was the point of DmC), or, more importantly, "You can stay in the air too easily" without relying specifically on Jump Cancels back when they were a small-frame exploit.
That super-high-end, single-frame stuff isn't necessary to make a game good single-player action game, and most of it was exploits anyways. It just caused this elitist attitude, which further pushed people away.
I would, or maybe it's "cult hit" or whatnot, just like Bayonetta. The point is that the type of games that DMC and Bayonetta are, while popular with its fans, don't do a whole lot to entice others into it; from the over-the-top and sometimes zany style to the high-end gameplay that's metagamingly forced down peoples' throats - do this, or you're doing it wrong.
People love to say it's Capcom's fifth top-selling franchise, but conveniently ignore the fact that it's like...one of their current lowest selling of those top franchises, it's last in the running, and number four on that list has double its sales, even DMC's oft-marked rival God of War has double its sales. DMC's fluctuating sales and differences in gameplay from its originals made it rough franchise to support financially sometimes.
If I remember correctly, the current iterations of Ninja Gaiden outsold DMC as a franchise too...
And then God of War outsells it by leaps and bounds, because God of War is a spammy mess of a franchise that doesn't require as much finesse as DMC does :/ DMC's emphasis on finesse is awesome for promoting better play out of you, but in the end the high-end small-frame exploits became such a larger part that suddenly those were deemed by fans to be necessary thing, too, when they really shouldn't have.
That's what I'm talking about I guess, that it became this like half-accepted thing that DMC should always be about those exploits, and it's not good at all for a franchise.
It's similar to how I loved Gunz: The Duel as an idea, but hated playing it because you needed to glitch the game in order to play. K-Styling became inherently necessary, and it was f#cking bullsh!t. Not just from a skill standpoint, but also just from it making the game look like broken sh!t with incomplete and twitchy animations.
Stylish Nero
We Dem Boys!!
That is the thing about it.
You don't need to use those exploits and abilities. Games such as DMC and many others gives the players the tools to play how THEY want. Just because other players are using said exploits to create rather out landish combos doesn't mean the combat is designed purposeful for that purpose. Kobayashi for DMC4 even stated the combat for DMC4 was designed for players can pull off their own creative combos and not just copy other players antics. I see what other players can do and tricks they pulled off to see if I can improve my own style. I don't abuse aspects of Jump Canceling (unless if its Nero) and only use DT Distortion with Real Impact to finish off enemies quicker especially dangerous ones like the Blitz which is no different than spamming Demon Dodge and 1-Hit KOing bosses. Also, I don't have a strong emphasis on aerial combat since the games offer more options on land than air. If anything people exploiting those glitches and whatnot aren't really playing by the game's rules since they aren't really building style meter (unless it involves using the DT Explosion in DMC3 to gain SSS but that is no fun).
I don't care much about depth, complexity, exploits, and glitches I care more about options, the kind of options, and the amount of options available and glitches and exploits are one of those options giving to the player. This is where to me DmC fails as well as DMC4 when compared to DMC3. It offered less options sure both games still retained the fundamentals and necessities but this is a game/series driven by creativity and options and the more tools you offer the player the more creative they can be. YOU DON'T NEED the player to have access to all their weapons/tool at once maybe more than before but not all of them if it includes or comes with the price of lessing the tools they can have.
Personally I think Nero's combat has the most depth in the franchise as well as DmC Vergil's. Depth means how deep and expansive something is and not how much options and moves the combat has or if it has exploits.
Plus its not like DmC is not without its fair share of exploits and glitches (and its loaded with them or well used to be until the patch) and some exploits are intentional like the Demon Dodge damage boost. Plus those exploits and glitches can make a better game such as this one glitch for DmC that was removed in the full version but was shown in the demo version where Dante pulled off Prop and Shredder in mid-air....don't know how they did that but they did.
Also some high end frame inputs and mastery in the DMC series aren't exploits but intentional design decisions such as the Ex-Act System (Nero), Guarding/Release, Jump Canceling (DMC4 and DmC), and Crazy Combos (DMC3).
Plus doesn't Ninja Gaiden proves my point since NG is FAR more harder and hardcore than DMC and it can maintain a healthy stability of success proving their is a market for hard games. Plus Ninja Gaiden sells due to how much platforms and iterations it has per game since it has triple the amount of games in its name compared to DMC (including the special editions).
A main reason why God of War is very successful is due to it being a SONY flagship franchise....you know SONY a company far more bigger and have more resources and influence on the market than Capcom and its very strong marketing compared to the DMC series. More people hear about God of War because SONY actually markets the games very well versus what Capcom does with the DMC series and they put out more games frequently. Plus comparing DMC to God of War might as well as compare MegaMan (LOL) to Mario or the very least Sonic......especially during the NES, SNES, and N64 & PSX era.
Plus why all this talk about sales. I thought a series or game's worth weren't defined by its sales and popularity.
Maintaining a franchise isn't hard and all you need to do is properly budget the game (because games don't over priced budgets to be good or great for some of the best games have been made with low budgets) to gain profits off of it. I mean Capcom is still making games for the Sengoku Basara series and many more and they make lower sales than DMC. Even their new IP Dragon's Dogma made 1.3 million units and that was considered largely successful for them. Games don't need to be making Call of Duty money to actually be worth a damn. Otherwise you'll end up like Square losing money on great games because they thought that way.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
'Cause you brought it up.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Well yeah, but what I'm saying is that the mentality with DMC is that the game needs to have those exploits, and that's one reason DmC got sh!t on, because it did away with that stuff, or incorporated then into the actual regular gameplay.
I think DmC tried a slight variation on what was done in DMC4 with Dante, which was emphasizing that you had all these skills on each weapon, like you do in DMC3, giving each tool distinct purposes, and then just shoving them all at you. In DmC, each weapon was more just an extension of your abilities, like a new facet of what you could do, while coming from a new weapon that could be upgraded. It's like if you could level up in a fighting game and gain more skills or potency for existing ones.
I'd agree, it also conformed the combat controls better. I've said it before, but goddamn do I like having ground and air combos on the same button :x
Oh totally, but of course, they also aren't necessary for full enjoyment. Wait...what patch
are you talkin' about theI don't think that counts as an exploit
That's just an actual thing in the game. An exploit is like Charge Stocking.I remember that one. Ironically, you can do that with Dante in Playstation All-Stars as a normal move
Y'know what...? I miss Crazy Combos, especially that magic circle that would flash around him.
Why'd you bring that up :C That wound is still open! :'(
Aside from what Unknown said, it's just that the franchise's popularity (or slight lack thereof) is owed to it not being the easiest to get into - I've sadly done a lot of returns on DMC games in the past because people don't like the difficulty curve, or the overall style, or even the concepts! And then with the money from the return...they go and buy God of War. Makes my heart break a little :/
But yeah, sales and popularity don't inherently make a game good CALL OF DUTY...*cough* but a lack of it can be due to public's appeal of it.
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Stylish Nero
We Dem Boys!!
Well yeah, but what I'm saying is that the mentality with DMC is that the game needs to have those exploits, and that's one reason DmC got sh!t on, because it did away with that stuff, or incorporated then into the actual regular gameplay.
I think DmC tried a slight variation on what was done in DMC4 with Dante, which was emphasizing that you had all these skills on each weapon, like you do in DMC3, giving each tool distinct purposes, and then just shoving them all at you. In DmC, each weapon was more just an extension of your abilities, like a new facet of what you could do, while coming from a new weapon that could be upgraded. It's like if you could level up in a fighting game and gain more skills or potency for existing ones.
I'd agree, it also conformed the combat controls better. I've said it before, but goddamn do I like having ground and air combos on the same button :x
Oh totally, but of course, they also aren't necessary for full enjoyment. Wait...what patch
I don't think that counts as an exploit
I remember that one. Ironically, you can do that with Dante in Playstation All-Stars as a normal move
Y'know what...? I miss Crazy Combos, especially that magic circle that would flash around him.
Plus doesn't Ninja Gaiden proves my point since NG is FAR more harder and hardcore than DMC and it can maintain a healthy stability of success proving their is a market for hard games. Plus Ninja Gaiden sells due to how much platforms and iterations it has per game since it has triple the amount of games in its name compared to DMC (including the special editions).
Why'd you bring that up :C That would is still open! :'(
Aside from what Unknown said, it's just that the franchise's popularity (or slight lack thereof) is owed to it not being the easiest to get into - I've sadly done a lot of returns on DMC games in the past because people don't like the difficulty curve, or the overall style, or even the concepts! And then with the money from the return...they go and buy God of War. Makes my heart break a little :/
But yeah, sales and popularity don't inherently make a game good CALL OF DUTY...*cough* but a lack of it can be due to public's appeal of it.
Yeah but the exploits in DMC4 weren't really necessary to make the game better either.....I would say the same for DMC3 but a few did make the gameplay better.
Yeah there was a patch that can came with the Bloody Palace update it reduced the damage input increase for Demon Dodging (still broken though), fixed the parry window for Prop and Shredder so its not too large making it very easy to parry with especially on the Ghost Rages, dodging no longer grants style, JCing Arbiter's Flush in DmC now is registered and granted style points, Style Meter is less lenient and drops when in S-SSS territory when your not gaining style points, and some other stuff....they may have fixed the boss freezing glitches as well. They also took out the Infinite Flight glitch (another exploit) and many other glitch like exploits like the ability to pull off land moves in mid-air (they should've at least kept that one).
As for exploits see Charge Stocking is an exploit and a trick advanced players used so DmC too has its fair share of unintentional exploits and every game especially of the action genre has its fair share of exploits like the Bayonetta Tetsuka...whatever its called Jump Cancel technique or Shuriken Cancels in Ninja Gaiden. All tricks and exploits that the designers didn't really intend to be in the game. Unlike fighters its OK for the game have these exploits (Its normal and if the developers sees them and makes them a mechanic in future installments good for them.....would like to see how they can implement that pulling off land moves in mid-air glitch as a mechanic) because unlike fighters they aren't 2 player VS games...well Ninja Gaiden and God of War is now but not really...and having these exploits won't affect you as a player. DMC1 had exploits and glitches even DMC2 had them too.
As for exploits becoming mechanics in DmC I think the only exploits to become mechanics was JC which was already a mechanic in DMC4 considering Itsuno or someone from Capcom was talking about it in DMC4 and that JC was in DMC1 (not in DMC2) but again in DMC3 and it was implemented differently in DMC4. JC was easier to pull off in DMC4 compared to DMC3 (not many players used JC that often in DMC3 compared to DMC4) DmC just made it far more easier but there is no point to JCing in DmC when you have a dozen other options of staying in the air and I think the JC is sort of sticky and a mess so I don't use it unless I'm using Enemy Step and using an attack afterwards or I'm jump canceling Flush plus the black blur that appears is very disturbing to look at.
Then there is Distortion....I don't think that was unintended exploit considering that Capcom usually pays close attention to their games and feedback and the fact that DT Explosion which was an exploit/glitch in DMC3 was suspiciously replaced by DT Distortion in DMC4 and is far more balanced and easier to pull off. Another fact that DTing in DMC4 whether as Nero or Dante actually does damage to any enemy standing next to you and another fact DTing with Nero not only cancels any animation you were doing but knocks any opponent next to you into the air seems that the programmers put more thought into the DT mechanic than we would like to think.
Sometimes its kind of hard to implement exploits into a game that easily some just work fine the way they are like Nero's Inertia. I find it odd they couldn't have kept that in DmC considering how the shotgun in DmC has the same charge shot as the Blue Rose which results in Nero performing Inertia (meaning Inertia for Nero was intended if it was simple)....well I guess Dante was shooting a sticky bomb while Nero was releasing a powerful blast that would knock him back. Now Dante's Inertia is something that could get altered to work better.
Plus some exploits are fine the way are and are VERY easy to pull off like Guard Canceling.
If anything DmC needs to work on balancing its mechanics as certain aspects about it seems rather broken and too overpowered such as Demon Dodge, either fix that or replace it with something else.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Demon Dodge was supposed to be like an evasive version Royal Guard's Just Guard and Release system. I think it'd be better if they just brought back Royal Guard a bit and made like a "Demon Guard" that will reduce damage when blocking, or give you that damage bonus and parry the enemy on a Just Guard.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
That's because NG has these;
One of these;
And all this originally came from this;
So guess which hack n slash will get more out of the mostly male ammount of gamers.
OppressedWriter
SamD
No, NO
, Demon Dodge is way too freaking satisfying during combat, they can remove the huge damage buff though and I won't care.actually for me and other people I know the colors are so bright, it physically hurt my eyes just to look at it.
Stylish Nero
We Dem Boys!!
Certain stages like the Night Club (my favorite one) could cause epileptic shock to those who are rather sensitive like that banned Pokemon episode about Porygon.
A lot of the earlier stages does hurt my eyes too but since I wear glasses when looking at bright screens I'm not affected.
Due to a incident that happened to my nephew he wasn't allowed to play the game anymore but I gave it back to said friend so need to worry about that.