who in here wants DmC dodging to stay?
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TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
I'm sorry. I don't mean to start something, but that is just patently absurd, and I just want you to know that. Requiring skill does not ever make something inherently "better".
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On topic, pretty much right there with Goldsickle, my thoughts exactly.
It's the other side of the Dominant Strategy coin, where a player will do whatever is easiest and most effective more often than not. The more complicated something is to perform, the less often a player is going to use it; that's why ease-of-use and intuitive controls are so important in gaming. Wrestling with clunky controls =/= wrestling with the game's challenges, because that's not game-side, it's system-side, and that's dumb.
absolitude
the devil is not as black as he painted
definitely need to stay.. and just one dodge is fine, maybe they should make the other button as block like the one lords of shadow did.. and if the combat gameplay would be more intenst, block, dodge, parry, attack, will be fun to play..
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
I've still only been using the one dodge button because I turned the other one into Gun Special. I don't quite like the idea of using Shoot+Jump for that input >.<
xMobilemux
I'll just get right to the ass kicking.
Last time I checked we were playing a video game, not flying a freaking 747.
The point still stands, the good moves of Devil May Cry are reserved for skilled players who take the time to learn, but casual noobs who just want one button dodge for story quickies not only screw up the dodge for skilled players, but also screw up the chance of more moves that involve said button.
It's also why I like the parry of MGR, it requires timing, the right timing rewards you with a high damage counter move and even the dodge in MGR is something that has to be used skillfully and tactically, it's not just something you can spam over and over with a single button, which is something I want fixed with Bayonetta's dodge.
Just spamming a one button dodge is boring and unrewarding.
Foxtrot94
Elite Hunter
Gotta agree with @xMobilemux
This also kinda reminds me the criticism people moved against The Witcher 2's combat: the dodge is assigned to a single button, it's easy to use, therefore the best way to win a fight is spamming the dodge. It's dodge and hit, basically. This can still be forgiven in a game like The Witcher, but it's a serious flaw in a Devil May Cry game, imo. DMC is all about being stylish and mix combos, having a too-easy-to-perform dodge inevitably encourages players, especially the newbies, to overuse it.
Besides, what's so impossibly complicated in the classic DMC dodge? XD it's just lock, move stick sideways and press jump button. LOL it's more complicated to write it than perform it, it's actually pretty intuitive. When I first played a DMC game (DMC3), total newb, I even figured it out the dodge mechanic before the game told me about it. Felt pretty natural.
This also kinda reminds me the criticism people moved against The Witcher 2's combat: the dodge is assigned to a single button, it's easy to use, therefore the best way to win a fight is spamming the dodge. It's dodge and hit, basically. This can still be forgiven in a game like The Witcher, but it's a serious flaw in a Devil May Cry game, imo. DMC is all about being stylish and mix combos, having a too-easy-to-perform dodge inevitably encourages players, especially the newbies, to overuse it.
Besides, what's so impossibly complicated in the classic DMC dodge? XD it's just lock, move stick sideways and press jump button. LOL it's more complicated to write it than perform it, it's actually pretty intuitive. When I first played a DMC game (DMC3), total newb, I even figured it out the dodge mechanic before the game told me about it. Felt pretty natural.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Wow! You missed the point by such a large margin that instead of hitting the landing pad you crashed into farmer Jenson's turnip field three counties away.
It's not "so impossibly complicated", it's just that it is by default more complicated than a one-button dodge. There's never any reason for gameplay controls to be complicated, and if there's an easier, more intuitive way to do it, then **** bro, do it. Intuitive control is great, but you cannot sit there and say that tilting an analog stick in a direction and pushing a dedicated dodge button is worse than only being able to truly dodge sideways, using a button that is primarily meant for jumping under any other circumstance, not without looking like a total knob. Easy to learn? Sure, totally, but not more intuitive than a button that is literally just "dodge".
The dodges (in either game) don't even offer any stylishness unless you use it to great effect. You either dodge at the right moment to make it look slick or the grading system to give you a fistbump, or you're rolling around like a Christmas turkey that fell off the table while the grading system wonders if the five second rule still applies. A single button dodge encourages players to not get hit, it doesn't offer them some ungodly and unreasonably powerful option. They still have to learn how to fight, and they still have to see where it's best to use the dodge for worthy effect. Dodging all willy-nilly isn't going to be as helpful as knowing when and where to dodge to for striking an opponent
Hell, if this is so bad, then why aren't you criticising DMC3 and 4 for Trickster, a Style built entirely around a one-button dodge for sliding around and hitting enemies while they're still attacking...? If it's supposed to be a serious flaw, then where's the criticism for those...?
And seriously get your heads outta your butts, because by speaking against the classic dodge should not be construed as "waaaah it's tooo haaaaaaarrrrrd" because it's not, this is a comparison between two similar functions.
This is exactly why it sounds so absurd. Dodging is OP? The hell? IT DOESN'T EVEN HELP YOU GET THROUGH THE GAME! You could spam a one-button dodge till kingdom come, but it won't do anything for your progress unless you learn to actually fight the enemies.
Dodging should be reserved for high-level players? Whyyyyyyy? It is a purely defensive move! It's not at all like the MGR's parry, where the skill it takes to parry is rewarded with a high damage payout. Oh tits, that's like DmC's Demon Dodge! Despite enemies calling you up and saying they'll be attacking two days from now, the mechanic is there - rewarding the player for a greater risk. Normal dodging's only reward is "congrats you're face isn't bleeding, and you're a few feet away". It's not Tablehopper, which is strictly for keeping you right goddamn next to the enemy, resetting to neutral for a counterattack (if you so desire).
And seriously, if you're gonna complain about a one-button dodge, then go lump DMC4 in with the rest of those one-button dodge failures, because you had access to one whenever the hell you wanted. At least in DMC3 you couldn't use other Style abilities if you wanted that dodge (hell, the game starts you on Trickster for some reason, too!), but as so many people have tried to tell me, it's sooooooo easy to hotswap to different Styles in DMC4.
That raises another question - when does something's ease of use become suddenly become bad? As ji-high points out, attacking the enemy is super OP, so that should be made really difficult, too, huh? Should the potency of a skill determine how easy something is to do...?
/rant
Foxtrot94
Elite Hunter
Trickster is different. It's not always immediately accessible. Player needs to switch style in DMC4 for that. And right style switching requires skill.
In DMC3 it can only be considered a problem once you level it up to 2 and 3, since you can do more dashes repeatedly. But as long as it's level 1, you can only do one dash after which there's a slight "cooldown" within which you can't dash again.
In DMC4 they fixed it giving Dante only one dash at a time, even if you max Trickster out. In fact you can only do multiple dashes while in DT.
In DmC there are no cooldown to the dodges, so the player can actually chain them spamming. That's a flaw.
If they want to keep it, ok, just prevent easy spam somehow and you have a better dodge mechanic.
In DMC3 it can only be considered a problem once you level it up to 2 and 3, since you can do more dashes repeatedly. But as long as it's level 1, you can only do one dash after which there's a slight "cooldown" within which you can't dash again.
In DMC4 they fixed it giving Dante only one dash at a time, even if you max Trickster out. In fact you can only do multiple dashes while in DT.
In DmC there are no cooldown to the dodges, so the player can actually chain them spamming. That's a flaw.
If they want to keep it, ok, just prevent easy spam somehow and you have a better dodge mechanic.
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Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
One-button dodge can be different. I have nothing against DmC dodge, because it was directed at casualized direction, and considering it dodge worked well. Now there is example of good one-button dodge, even if it can be spammed like Vanquish, where enemies actually trying to kill you. Problem is that one-button dodge, combined with obviously communicated moves, removes any challenge from the game, which was one of many obvious flaws in Dmc core system.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Except there's a cooldown on DmC's dodges too just like the classic Evasive Roll, where you can get hit, and Angel Dodge has an even longer cooldown, much like Trickster's Dash. Literally the only difference is that DmC's standard dodge is omnidirectional, but it has all the same limitations otherwise. You can spam it, but you can't spam it in the way you could DMC3's Dash, or the Definitive Edition Angel Dodge, now, apparently. Even then, still a limitation on how much it could be used in succession like that.
Foxtrot94
Elite Hunter
Felt exactly like that to me.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Well, I mentioned the absurd amount of time enemies spend broadcasting their moves in DmC, it is part of an equation that makes the dodging in DmC seem easier. The mechanic itself is sound, and is used in other games like Bayo to great effect.
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As a sidenote, I remember people complaining about DmC's enemies attacks being broadcasted by a glowing aspect, like Poison's arm glowing before she punches. However, Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising both use this similar effect, especially MGR where whatever is going to hit you glows bright orange. What's the difference? Well, obviously it's the length of time the broadcasting lasts, not the glowing aspect itself. The problem is time, not effect.
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As a sidenote, I remember people complaining about DmC's enemies attacks being broadcasted by a glowing aspect, like Poison's arm glowing before she punches. However, Bayonetta and Metal Gear Rising both use this similar effect, especially MGR where whatever is going to hit you glows bright orange. What's the difference? Well, obviously it's the length of time the broadcasting lasts, not the glowing aspect itself. The problem is time, not effect.
Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
difference is obvious for anybody who often plays action games. There are SOME attacks that communicated in Bayo, but there are also those that performed instantly. As for MGR it lacks invincible frames of DmC as such communicating moves are important to even able to play game, because otherwise it would be pretty impossible, considering that there is never enough just to dodge in MGR.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
MGR's dodge offset lacks i-frames because it's not really meant specifically as a dodge, it's a small avoidance while keeping your place in a combo. However, MGR also has a highly infallible defense it its parry system, which blocks pretty much every thing in the game as long as you perform it correctly. Hell, either you do it too early and you just attack instead, or you parry and protect yourself from damage, or parry, protect yourself from damage, and counter the enemy giving yourself some sort of advantage.
However, this is beside the point, as no matter what you still have some sort of defense that makes use of the glowing attack broadcast. The glowing broadcast exists and is perfectly acceptable, it just has to have a proper length of broadcast time to not end up making things overly easy.
However, this is beside the point, as no matter what you still have some sort of defense that makes use of the glowing attack broadcast. The glowing broadcast exists and is perfectly acceptable, it just has to have a proper length of broadcast time to not end up making things overly easy.
Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
Which was pretty much problem with DmC >_>
Chancey289
Fake Geek Girl.
If MGR is going to be brought up, why is it so conveniently forgotten that the parry mechanic can be exploited like a mother fudger making you practically invincible? Just keep flicking that analog stick and hit the button, I promise you, you will never, ever get hit.
You can spam the ever living hell outta that. I own MGR. I know how the mechanics work.
With DmC, you can't spam that dodge and expect to go anywhere. Try just dodging over and over again surrounded by enemies, and you will eventually get smacked even if the enemies do take their sweet time to call in attacks. You have to fight back.
I'm hoping the Definitive Edition just has these more aggressive enemies with no warning of attacks. I can see how it's there to help players parry when timed properly, but hardcore mode should push those players to have to parry by keeping an eye on their attacker, not the glowy stuff that gives the say so.
You can spam the ever living hell outta that. I own MGR. I know how the mechanics work.
With DmC, you can't spam that dodge and expect to go anywhere. Try just dodging over and over again surrounded by enemies, and you will eventually get smacked even if the enemies do take their sweet time to call in attacks. You have to fight back.
I'm hoping the Definitive Edition just has these more aggressive enemies with no warning of attacks. I can see how it's there to help players parry when timed properly, but hardcore mode should push those players to have to parry by keeping an eye on their attacker, not the glowy stuff that gives the say so.
Goldsickle
Well-known Member
Every game has their share of "enemy that telegraphs too much" and "enemies that attack very fast".
DmC had grunts that telegraph their attacks but getting used to that will get you hit by enemies with swifter attacks, like the Rage.
Even past DMC games had "over-telegraph" stuff going on, like how the Bianco Angelos in DMC4 telegraph their rocket lance attack loudly with "VROOM! VROOM! VROOM!".
The Alto Angelos also telegraph their charging sword attack no differently than the Stygians in DmC.
Innsmouth
Sleeping DMC Fan
If somebody counts amount of enemies telegraphing attacks in DMC4 and enemies that do it in DmC it become obvious who's the winner in there. There is something wrong with mechanic, if hardest enemy in game (drekavak/dreamrunner) can be defeated flawlessly by charging attack, standing in one place without moving and hitting him as soon as he telegraphs his teleport move.
Foxtrot94
Elite Hunter
Yeah, Erix rulez LOL