Is Devil May Cry becoming for newbies?

[Foxtrot94]

That's something I began to be worried about ever since DmC came out.

Actually, even DMC4 was easier than DMC3 to be honest, but it's still not a "dumbed down" game, cause we all know that while fighting the enemies itself is easier, yes, the amount of technical skill required to pull off the most spectacular stuff is huge and the depth of the combat itself is still unrivaled today.

When DmC came out, one of the major complaints was how easy it was, not only in how tough the enemies are but also in how easy it was to achieve great combo results and how some mechanics were dumbed down (excessively simplified) like jump cancel, and others completely absent altogether (trick cancel, Guard cancel, Inertia, and so on), which drove the most hardcore players away from it and lead the game to be excluded from events like True Style Tournament, as the game became way less technical. For some people it was the main reason why they don't consider it a good Devil May Cry game, if at all.

But it's also true that DmC was meant to be that way, as they wanted to attract more people to the franchise.

Then what if DMC got that treatment?

Many people, me included, are finding that DMC4SE is easier than vanilla. Not only with OP characters like Lady or Vergil, or simplified like Trish, but also with old Nero and Dante.

Does that worry you? Do you think that's a sign of Devil May Cry is becoming for newbiez (term not intended as an insult, heck, I can very well be considered one myself)?



Me... well not gonna lie, I am slightly worried.
But at the same time, I think it's a bit too early to say. I saw some posts in the internet giving the "noobification" of DMC for granted. Well, I don't think it's the case.

First off, look what they did with DmCDE. One of the things it did was increasing the difficulty (only in fighting enemies; the combat and its overall depth, especially for Dante, is still at the same level as vanilla, as it barely added anything in that department). That means Capcom knows what fans want out of the franchise.

Second, seems to me DMC4SE did the opposite: it is true that fighting enemies is now almost a joke, especially with the new characters, but it's also true that the combat and combo stringing, didn't get an excessive dumbing down process. Instead, they offered more in that field in the form of the new characters (ironically, borrowing a few ideas from DmC).

All that considered, I think Capcom still knows how to make combat be Devil May Cry combat.
But at the same time, while it's true that DMC is all about stylishness, it's also about difficulty, isn't it? We saw Capcom making a lackluster reboot in both fields (purposefully though, at least) only to try to patch the latter in the DE. And we saw them making an SE that sacrifices the latter while keeping the former intact.

So I am worried, but only slightly. In the sense that I don't doubt Capcom's ability to design deep and stylish and hard to master combat, but I do worry about them being able (or even willing, who knows) to make a tough game overall anymore.

 

[Director Bison]

this all depends on how tough the game should even be
i mean i'm proud of myself for beating DMC 3 on DMD but it's kind of ridiculous
i liked very hard from DMC 3 best

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I could care less.
Why should I worry about Devil May Cry getting easier or "for noobs" when I can barely have the time or patience to continue DMC4 past Son of Sparda mode? I liked that DmC was easier since I'm not the type of gamer who puts blood, sweat, and tears into games. It's one of the reasons I go back to DmC more so then DMC4. I'm starting to try and beat DMC4 now though just to see if the enemies are as tough as they say they are on DMD mode.
Point is; whether it gets harder or easier doesn't matter to me at all. Those so-called "hardcore" gamers can cry themselves a river for Devil May Cry not rubbing salt on their palm blisters from past DMC button mashing, but I'm just gonna sit in front of my tv, and play the series as is.

 

[Foxtrot94]

I could care less.
Why should I worry about Devil May Cry getting easier or "for noobs" when I can barely have the time or patience to continue DMC4 past Son of Sparda mode?

That's just you. This thread is more for seeing things in general, not just for the single ones of us.

DMC button mashing

The hell? DMC's advanced combat is all but button mashing. The only button mashing mechanic you can find in DMC are crazy combos and that's about it.



DMC's got its high standards about combat. Every game should build on the previous game's basis and offer more, not stripping mechanics and techniques away from it.

But I already said combat mechanics are not what I'm worried about. I'm worried about the overall difficulty of a hypothetical DMC5. Or even DmC2.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

That's just you. This thread is more for seeing things in general, not just for the single ones of us.

I know. That's why I used "I" and "me" in the post.

The hell? DMC's advanced combat is all but button mashing. The only button mashing mechanic you can find in DMC are crazy combos and that's about it.



DMC's got its high standards about combat. Every game should build on the previous game's basis and offer more, not stripping mechanics and techniques away from it.

But I already said combat mechanics are not what I'm worried about. I'm worried about the overall difficulty of a hypothetical DMC5. Or even DmC2.

When I say DMC button mashing, I meant DMC's version of button mashing which is what you've detailed. Essentially, crazy comboing IS a form of button mashing; just with enough pride to not admit it's button mashing from the hardcore gaming community.

And Like I said, I don't care what the difficulty of Devil May Cry will be in the future, as long as it's still a fun Hack n Slash to play. If you didn't want to hear my opinion on it, why make the thread that seemed to be asking it?

Or did you want an answer, to which I say; no. Devil May Cry isn't becoming for newbies. It's all in the eyes of the gamers in general for how hard it is. I know some gamers who are still having a difficult time playing DmC and can't even make it to DMD mode. So it's really all in the eyes of the person playing the series rather then an entire fandom ruling.

 

[Foxtrot94]

When I say DMC button mashing, I meant DMC's version of button mashing which is what you've detailed. Essentially, crazy comboing IS a form of button mashing; just with enough pride to not admit it's button mashing from the hardcore gaming community.

Yeah. And in fact crazy combos are now gone.

If you didn't want to hear my opinion on it, why make the thread that seemed to be asking it?

I want you to give your opinion, but regarding the matter in general, not just you. Which you did here:

Devil May Cry isn't becoming for newbies. It's all in the eyes of the gamers in general for how hard it is. I know some gamers who are still having a difficult time playing DmC and can't even make it to DMD mode.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Gregaman had a very good response to the "concerns" that performance was worse off in DmC because it was easier to do Jump Cancels (wish I could find it). It's really a silly concern because the point of the action is to gain access to a new level of executing actions - the difficulty in doing so isn't really the point, and it's a very silly argument to try and make. Things like Guard Flying are also a slightly silly concern because, while super cool and all that, weren't intentional mechanics, just byproducts of how physics behaved in the games, and they were difficult to do because you weren't supposed to be able to do them.

Getting a high Style rank may have been easier in DmC, but seriously, who gives hoot? The Style system gets borked so easily in every game by the simplest things; it was never a mechanic that could authentically grade your performance, and when you get into TrueStyle territory the whole thing becomes useless anyway. All it did was watch for varied attacks, aggression, and not getting hit, and maybe one or two circumstantial interactions, and then give you a better bonus.

To be quite honest, it's always been rather bothersome that the series became so lauded for all the highly technical, yet wholly unintentional, gameplay, simply because it became a benchmark for skill for no reason. Yeah sure, it's awesome to see that stuff, but that's not ever what DMC was intended to be - they just want you to have fun and look cool while killing enemies.

DmC was made as a way to try new things, from story presentation, to mechanics, and also to grab new players. By making the game easier to get into (not easier as a whole), it just allows other people to enjoy the crazy fun gameplay without feeling so intimidated by what's available to them. Similarly, it then opens them up to the rest of the series for greater challenges. Wanting more challenge is fine, like in DmCE's case, but there's no reason mechanics need to be so difficult, other than some misplaced pride in one's ability to be real good at the game.

In the end, I think what matters is the ability to create a game that has a low bar for entry, lots of technical gameplay at the high ceiling, and difficulty settings that actually bother to feel different; if someone is playing on the easiest setting possible, chances are they aren't exactly ready for every single challenge the game would throw at them, so give them less aggressive enemies with greater broadcast times and lighter hits. If and when they want more, scale the difficulty accordingly. As funny as DMC's old "You died a lot, you wanna go to Easy Mode" thing is, it's also just really insulting and sort of a waste of the player's time, which in and of itself is insulting It embitters the player in a way that's not conducive to challenging them properly.

 

[Foxtrot94]

It's really a silly concern because the point of the action is to gain access to a new level of executing actions - the difficulty in doing so isn't really the point

I think it's part of the point, instead. The easier something is to achieve, the less the satisfaction and sense of reward I get from achieving it.

Things like Guard Flying are also a slightly silly concern because, while super cool and all that, weren't intentional mechanics, just byproducts of how physics behaved in the games, and they were difficult to do because you weren't supposed to be able to do them.

Yeah. It's still something that adds to the combat though. It's still something you can do in DMC4 and you can't do in any other game. So it should be kept by reproducing it intentionally, instead of stripping it away entirely. Also because, as you said, it's super cool. And, as you rightfully said, DMC is about looking cool while killing enemies. The more stylish stuff available to the player, the better. So no point in removing the coolest looking stuff. Besides, all those advanced combat techniques in DMC3 and 4 are... how to say... optional. The games still allow you to look cool while doing more regular kind of combos. However, it's things like those techniques that add a lot to the combat itself, so it is good to have them, intentional or not. And the difficulty in performing them is the reason why so many people keep playing those games still today, because it's engaging to try and perform that crazy stuff, and when you do, it's extremely rewarding.

It's all value added to the game. And it's what has been defining Devil May Cry since DMC3.

Future games should keep that good stuff and add more, it's how good sequels (not in terms of story timeline, but in terms of publication date) are supposed to be made.

 

[Innsmouth]

Honestly I was worried that they will dumb down original game after DmC. But if this continues, DMC will dissolve into generic HnS and lost it relevance :/ I didn't expect them to dumb down DMC4 SE and pretty disappointed in decision like this, which makes me worried about Capcom's competence

 

[Judge]

Depends on how you define difficulty. I thought DMC3 and DMC4 were difficult for the wrong reasons. It was partly to do with the camera, in DMC3 and DMC4 a lot of the time the camera obscures your view, you can also get attacked from enemies off screen. That makes things very difficult as opposed to DmC, which is a lot fairer in the sense that the camera follows what you want it to most of the time, making it a lot easier to see your target. DmC also has something programmed into it to prevent as many off screen attacks. Which I thought made DMC3 unfairly difficult.

Then you have the controls, something that they did in DmC was giving the player dodge buttons, which also makes it a lot eaiser to manouver around enemies, as opposed to DMC3 and DMC4 when you movement is contained within the radius of one enemy, even then your dodging options are only with respect to certain directions.

While I agree these things made DmC easier to play. I don't agree these were bad changes. This is genuinely something that was fustrating and annoying in previous games.

In terms of difficulty, I didn't have a problem DmC's difficulty. Although admitidely I think that Dante's devil trigger was not done right, his devil trigger made the game too easy. They've should've sticked to a DT mode akin to past games, previous games featured more balanced DTs, they wern't win buttons.

 

[Frazz]

Let's put it this way... If a DMC5 is made nobody will care about how easy it is as we'll all be jumping for joy that it finally comes into existence. Also pretty much everyone is really enjoying DMC4:SE which may be easier but it retains all the technical stuff and it's still cathartic to play.

Also honestly are we going back to the days of 'this feature/choice I didn't like in DmC shouldn't be in a potential DMC5'? I agree that DmC is ridiculously easy but DMC4:SE whilst easier than vanilla isn't DmC easy. Also remember that DMC4:SE only had a year of development time... Not nearly enough time to fix everything and tweak the enemies etc. Most of that development time was probably spent on creating/ animating the new moves for the new characters.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

It is disappointing that DMC4se is so much easier , if anything it should have been made harder and I have already started playing it less because the challenge is gone.I sss ranked it all so now I just play bp with vergil dante and trish when I get bored of my other games , to be honest if DMC5 is made and isn't harder than DMC4 originally was I am gona be put off playing it.

 

[Dante94513]

It's really depends on how you play the games, but honestly when it comes to becoming for newbies. I think Capcom now should takes note from how DmCE IMO perfected it. I'm more worried that they'll make future DMC games difficult for the wrong reasons while at the same time dumbing down the difficulty for the game itself (enemies, bosses, attack patterns, health, damage) sort of like they did with DMC4. DmCE was like giving different players a choice. Yes, the gameplay is damn easy to learn, and flow with, but the game itself can be either easy or very difficult to beat.

 

[Foxtrot94]

DmCE

Stop this! Just write DmCDE without the : please!!!

 

[Director Bison]

Stop this! Just write DmCDE without the : please!!!

how about mCE

 

[KRSkull]

You shouldn't ask wither the games are becoming easy or not. But Does the people buy games to PLAY them or Because they wanna find a flaw So they can go and Whine about it?

I mean seriously. If a game was hard everyone complains and say its not playable. if the game was easy everyone say its not challenging. If the game was hard in some areas and easy in other they Just complain about it. A good example is DMC3

When DMC3 Dante's Awakening came out people said its too hard to play. And they ended up getting DMC3SE. when DMC3SE came out Some people started to complain that its easy and its for Newbies.

I won't be surprised if one day the video game companies took the "Screw you guys. We're making pong" . Because we are a tough, troublesome case, you know! With all these distracting emotions...Even for someone as Sherlock Holmes it'd still be impossible to figure out! The mind of a gamer...How can anyone accurately deduce that?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I'm still behind the thought that worrying about difficulty is such a small concern because what we as the DMC community find easy, others who are new to the series will find it difficult as hell. Not everyone in this fandom can do guard canceling, and not everyone in this fandom knows the little tricks of how to win easier in DMC4:SE. Take me for example; some people have cleared Bloody palace easy, meanwhile, I still can't get past Berial at all.
What you all find easy, others will find difficult.
Some of y'all need to stop being so selfish in all this "DEVIL MAY CRY IS A TRUE FAN'S GAME! NO NEWBS ALLOWED!" bullcrap.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I think it's part of the point, instead. The easier something is to achieve, the less the satisfaction and sense of reward I get from achieving it.

Well sure, if one derives so much pleasure and self-worth achieving such things. The problem is that everything that is considered "high level play" is not something the devs set out to do with the game, they were all glitches, hence their difficulty in execution. When DmC came about, they saw how great of a "mechanic" Jump Canceling was, and they actually bothered to include it as an actual feature. I mean, it's totally fine if you get satisfaction from achieving something like that, but at the same time, you have to be aware of how unintentional all that stuff was, and you can't really be ****y that they didn't continue to cater to something they were never catering towards to begin with.

Yeah. It's still something that adds to the combat though. It's still something you can do in DMC4 and you can't do in any other game. So it should be kept by reproducing it intentionally, instead of stripping it away entirely. Also because, as you said, it's super cool. And, as you rightfully said, DMC is about looking cool while killing enemies. The more stylish stuff available to the player, the better. So no point in removing the coolest looking stuff. Besides, all those advanced combat techniques in DMC3 and 4 are... how to say... optional. The games still allow you to look cool while doing more regular kind of combos. However, it's things like those techniques that add a lot to the combat itself, so it is good to have them, intentional or not. And the difficulty in performing them is the reason why so many people keep playing those games still today, because it's engaging to try and perform that crazy stuff, and when you do, it's extremely rewarding.

The problem with that is all these things we have attributed to high level play actually break the game. The devs didn't build a game around the idea of being able to Jump Cancel and keep enemies and yourself in the air indefinitely, to utterly murder enemies with powerful moves that are supposed to be risky because you remove the risk. Not until DmC did they make enemies that actually bother to intercept you and attempt to break your stylish combos, instead of just sorta attacking and then turning into a punching bag when they first get hit. Even the capabilities to tackle bosses greatly exceeds what you were supposed to be able to do.

Future games should keep that good stuff and add more, it's how good sequels (not in terms of story timeline, but in terms of publication date) are supposed to be made.

It's, unfortunately, not exactly for us to decide. They get to choose what direction the series takes, and while we can be disappointed in it, we don't really have a right to be so belligerent about it. They obviously saw fit to keep Jump Canceling, all that other stuff...hell, it might not have even been possible with DmC's system. That is another thing to consider, most of what exists in DMC4 is because of the game's physics - if new game (like DmC) doesn't have that, it's probably because it isn't using the same physics, and they might not even make a return in another game either >.>

If they can implement the mechanics well-enough and actually build the game around it, that's great. DMC was great as a challenge because (barring the unintentional abilities) it gave you the tools to succeed against enemies, it never made you overpowered. Everything was mostly balanced.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@TWOxACROSS
Jump cancel was not a glitch. They intended it as an actual feature when they first put it in DMC3. Itsuno was asked that in a stream during E3 and he answered. He said that yeah it was an intentional mechanic but he was still surprised by how many cool stuff high level players have been able to achieve through it.

Obviously it wasn't a glitch in DMC4 either cause it's a buyable ability.

Other things like Distortion for example. That's no glitch either. In fact when you perform it, you can see a visual clue consisting of the red effect on screen changing and becoming brighter as a result. That's a pre-programmed FX recognized by the code when Distortion with the perfect timing is executed.

Same with Just Frames. No glitch. It's an intentional mechanic. The visual clue there is even more evident. Try Dante's just framed lvl 3 ground pound or Vergil's just framed lvl 3 Straight at the end of Beowulf Combo 2.
Even Vergil's Judgment Cut in DMC4 use the same principle. On purpose.

Inertia is not a glitch or unintentional either. When Nero shoots his CS3 in the air, the recoil of the shot moves him back (even on land a lil bit but it's most evident in the air). Is it physics? Yeah. Does that mean it's unintentional? Course not. Unless you're telling me they programmed a physics engine "unintentionally" when they made the game.
Lady's Ground Zero's last frames are another example of it, a shame she can't do it in the air too. Ground Zero is an unintentional move too? A glitch?

Guard Fly uses the same principle as Inertia combined with the fact that you can cancel anything with a Royalguard stance. Which is an inherent mechanic of that move, not a glitch or anything.

I'll tell you what the glitches are in DMC4: Ecstasy and the Lucifer glitch, as they call it. Together they form a mechanic where if you toss a rose to an enemy, it places an hitbox on him, that shouldn't be there. High lvl players can do wonders with it, but THAT is not intentional.

Also reverse Stinger moves. They were not supposed to behave like that obviously cause they are supposed to only go where the target is.
I feel THIS is something DmC took and reproduced intentionally: to make Stinger go wherever you want, at the cost of removing lock on.



In a future game, I expect to see all the depth of DMC4, plus more. Why would I want a game that has less features than its predecessor? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Now, I ask you all, and this is something subjective obviously but I'm interested in hearing everyone's view on it: what's YOUR one ideal difficulty DMC5 or DmC2 should have?

For me, I'd say DMC3's Very Hard and an enemy design/behavior like the ones of DMC1 and 4.

 

[The Good Gentleman]

I'd like DmC2 or DMC5 to take a few lessons from Bayonetta. The biggest problems these games have is that the enemies literally just stand around, doing nothing, waiting for you to annihilate them. Even on Hell and Hell difficulty, it never really feels like you're in any danger.

With Bayonetta on the other hand, the enemies actually fight back. Granted, it was specifically designed this way to complement her dodge mechanic, but DMC has reached a point where you simply have too much of an arsenal and everything becomes too easy as a result. So, make the enemies capable of kicking your ass, and make it so that you have to work for your crazy combos. Improve dodging, add in a guard/parry mechanic, and make the enemies a ****ton more aggressive.

Same for the boss battles. About the only boss in DMC4 that does anything threatening is Credo. More like him.