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I hope DMC4:SE does more than just new characters...

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
People didn't hate DMC4 in mass. Public was kind of split. What we're seeing now is the resurfacing of those who liked it.

Also I should add that we're all into DMC here but there are people who never touched the franchise and are completely unfamiliar with it (the target audience for remasters btw). And from what I've been seeing in forums, YouTube or in my conversations on Steam for example, those people are generally looking forward to this, especially at that price.

So really it's no surprise to me that this game is being generally favorably seen. I honestly already knew since the teaser back in December.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
I wasn't around here when DMC 4 came out- all I know is that the press reviewed it favorably and my friends and I absolutely loved it.
Well, the forums I read during that period said different.

You and your friends may have loved it at the time, but most of the people I spoke to didn't care for it.
 

scionicspectre

Well-known Member
Yep, it's a complete surprise to me that anyone would have negative feelings about any of this situation (except in relation to DmC, obviously). As a game developer, it can be rather frightening to hear this kind of spite towards an amazing game while starting a small, humble project. Then I remember how small a fraction of DMC fans actually visit forums. I'm the only one among a dozen of my DMC-loving friends that has any online presence in the fandom, and I often don't speak up since I have nothing to complain about.
 

Frazz

General gamer
At the time around the release I distinctly remember severe Nero hatred and he was the original 'worst thing to happen to DMC' that wasn't DMC2. The reason why SE is being welcomed is because we've had time to cool off and Nero, whilst having an annoying voice imo and having a crap love story, does have fun gameplay once you master Ex/Max Act. The same will happen to things like DmC down the line... People will calm down, play it again and find things they actually appreciate about it.

Honestly though, despite hoping for a few Vergil missions, this was pretty much what I thought would happen and I still appreciate it. Having just put 160 more hours into DMC4 over the last few months I'm more than willing to put just as many or more hours into each character with SE. DMC4 really gives you a sense of achievement for getting better and that's why people are now so find of it.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
Then I remember how small a fraction of DMC fans actually visit forums. I'm the only one among a dozen of my DMC-loving friends that has any online presence in the fandom, and I often don't speak up since I have nothing to complain about.

You definitely have a point there actually. I mean I too have quite a number of friends who love DMC but do not stay online. I even got one of them curious about this forum, he joined but isn't here often at all.
 

Exejpgwmv

Well-known Member
True but it's also true that the problems DmC had required just some programming tweaks, unlike DMC4. DmC was way easier to fix. Granted, some of the core problems of DmC still remains even with the DE.

DMC4 required a complete rebuild of the second half of the game, which requires a lot of work and was crazy to ask for from a simple Special Edition. If someone expected that, it was unrealistic to begin with.
Can we please stop pretending that the only problem DMC4 had was backtracking?
 

Exejpgwmv

Well-known Member
If you can't see why this alone is more work than was done on DmC: DE
It's not, it really isn't.

Or did you not see the over 20 page change log showing that they changed almost every single mission, enemy type, difficulty, boss, and playable character in the game? Most of which targeted toward fixing most of the complaints toward the game and adding new content we didn't even ask for.

Also, considering it's had over 4 years to prepare, I would have thought that they would have all of the new features ready to show off and not just show one aspect of the changes while only vaguely mentioning all the others.

The backtracking, story, and tutorials are the only significant complaints people had about DMC 4: SE that I'm aware of.
That's kinda unbelievable.
One of the most basic complaints is that you can't turn off the bloody palace timer.
 

scionicspectre

Well-known Member
It's not, it really isn't.

Or did you not see the over 20 page change log showing that they changed almost every single mission, enemy type, difficulty, boss, and playable character in the game? Most of which targeted toward fixing most of the complaints toward the game and adding new content we didn't even ask for.

Also, considering it's had over 4 years to prepare, I would have thought that they would have all of the new features ready to show off and not just show one aspect of the changes while only vaguely mentioning all the others.


That's kinda unbelievable.
One of the most basic complaints is that you can't turn off the bloody palace timer.

Lmao. I read the entire change log, and it's like I said- most of these changes to every little part of the game are values you can go in and change in a few minutes. Lock-on and Vergil's Bloody Palace are the only impressive technical achievements in that list. I don't think you even need to be a game developer to understand this isn't a great deal of work.

So, let's compare the workflows.

DmC: DE modifications

Enemy remixing (including Vergil's Bloody Palace): Check existing wave locations and spawn points, change enemy IDs and locations (X,Y,Z) and test the differences. Reiterate until it's good enough.

Estimated time: 1 mission per day if you really want to iron it out.

Time adjustments like parrying: Find range for the specified action, narrow or broaden as much in either direction as necessary. This is only ever two values, the start and end points. You're just typing two numbers and checking if it feels right.

Estimated time: all adjustments could be made in a few days, but it would take a week or two to play test from scratch (this may or may not have been done- they could have just gone on without feedback).

Additional angle dodge
: Add 1 to allotted consecutive glides and adjust cooldown time after third dodge to be longer than the first two.

Estimated time: A few seconds, with a day to test if you're a good girl/boy.

Adjustments to boss AI, addition of lock-on, additional costumes and never before seen cutscenes (they already existed, at least the mocap): This stuff is actually hard as it involves adjusting a multitude of interdependent values, adding UI and messing with existing control modifiers, as well as creating new artwork.

Estimated time: Probably a little over a month with all cylinders pumping.

Some impressive stuff in there that took more time than the rest, but most of the 'wow, gee that's neat' features could have taken moments if they didn't care to playtest it extensively.

DMC 4: SE modifications

New model for Vergil, especially cutscenes: This has to be built from the ground up with several design considerations as it's to be used in new story content. It can't just be a tacked on costume, it's needs to evoke classic Vergil in an upgraded realtime rendering engine without stealing Dante's aged visage.

Estimated time: A couple weeks to build a character model for cutscenes and a separate one for gameplay.

Animations for Vergil, Lady, and Trish, both ingame and cutscenes: This requires not only the grunt work of actually creating the animations, but designing them from scratch (especially the choreography for cutscenes). There are dozens of decisions to be made before the animation can even begin, and many times new models are created just for the sake of a cutscene (Vergil's cloak, for instance). Each attack must be planned around the existing gameplay and designed to work well and provide a reasonable challenge before you touch a single limb, and even then you have hundreds of individual animations to create from scratch as they need to be modern and you couldn't transfer the animations from DMC 3, anyway. The particle effects alone would consume a massive chunk of this workload.

Estimated time: Too much time. At least a month for the cutscenes and one month each for every character if we're being absurdly optimistic. Making sure it all works fluidly and looks right for the individual characters is tough even when you're able to reuse one or two things from Dante.

The actual combat for each character
: In tandem with the animators, you adjust the force, hitboxes, distance traveled, invincibility frames, leg height animations, and a few other things for every single frame of animation, and with each iteration it's possible you'll both have to redo a lot of work (including removal and replacement of a previous day's work because it needs to be iterated heavily). There's a lot of trial and error and testing that needs to be done for every situation to make sure it plays right and feels like a real improvement after 7 years, while still fitting within the games existing mechanics.

Estimated time: I honestly don't know. For each character, over the course of the entire development, this has probably been the focus and has required most of the development resources. I'd say several months if you lumped it all together.

Reactions to additional abilities that weren't accounted for vanilla DMC 4
: The effects of Trish's lightning, Vergil's summoned swords, and Lady's explosive loadout could all have properties that weren't shared by Nero or Dante in the original game. As such, each enemy and boss needs a way to respond to these new abilities. Vergil's raining swords are a perfect example as they appear to freeze the enemies as they are stunned, as well as Judgement Cut End.

Estimated time: This could have taken a couple days, honestly, since a lot pieces are already there. Deciding to actually have these effects probably took longer, and testing them longer still. Maybe a week or two if I'm optimistic.

I could go further with the additional costumes for each of the four characters who have them (Gloria was already there) and the adjustments to autosaving and Proud Souls, but I think you can get a rough idea of those from the DmC changes that are similar. So yeah, I'm sorry, but I feel like it's not even comparable, and I haven't gone all that in depth despite this wall of text. I'd like to be more succinct, but creating games is a complicated process that shouldn't be underestimated, and it always hurts developers when outsiders make uninformed assumptions of what it takes to change or add to a game. The design and testing process alone are invaluable and unquantifiable, outside of the actual grunt work.

TL : DR Modders could have (and did) make most of the changes introduced in DmC: DE. I'd like to see any modder in their right mind try to add what DMC 4: SE is offering without losing their mind and soul in the process.
 
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Exejpgwmv

Well-known Member
Oh wow, it really does seem like they did a laughably low amount of work when you don't even cover half of what they actually changed, just assume they didn't play test, and trivialize all the more impressive additions.

Good thing most people actual read the change log and appreciate all the work the devs did.


I mean, Jesus Christ, it looks like you just skimmed through the change log while scrolling down at full speed, then decide to write about it.
 

Bazilican

Beer and big tits all around! XD
Lmao. I read the entire change log, and it's like I said- most of these changes to every little part of the game are values you can go in and change in a few minutes. Lock-on and Vergil's Bloody Palace are the only impressive technical achievements in that list. I don't think you even need to be a game developer to understand this isn't a great deal of work.

So, let's compare the workflows.

DmC: DE modifications

Enemy remixing (including Vergil's Bloody Palace): Check existing wave locations and spawn points, change enemy IDs and locations (X,Y,Z) and test the differences. Reiterate until it's good enough.

Estimated time: 1 mission per day if you really want to iron it out.

Time adjustments like parrying: Find range for the specified action, narrow or broaden as much in either direction as necessary. This is only ever two values, the start and end points. You're just typing two numbers and checking if it feels right.

Estimated time: all adjustments could be made in a few days, but it would take a week or two to play test from scratch (this may or may not have been done- they could have just gone on without feedback).

Additional angle dodge
: Add 1 to allotted consecutive glides and adjust cooldown time after third dodge to be longer than the first two.

Estimated time: A few seconds, with a day to test if you're a good girl/boy.

Adjustments to boss AI, addition of lock-on, additional costumes and never before seen cutscenes (they already existed, at least the mocap): This stuff is actually hard as it involves adjusting a multitude of interdependent values, adding UI and messing with existing control modifiers, as well as creating new artwork.

Estimated time: Probably a little over a month with all cylinders pumping.

Some impressive stuff in there that took more time than the rest, but most of the 'wow, gee that's neat' features could have taken moments if they didn't care to playtest it extensively.

DMC 4: SE modifications

New model for Vergil, especially cutscenes: This has to be built from the ground up with several design considerations as it's to be used in new story content. It can't just be a tacked on costume, it's needs to evoke classic Vergil in an upgraded realtime rendering engine without stealing Dante's aged visage.

Estimated time: A couple weeks to build a character model for cutscenes and a separate one for gameplay.

Animations for Vergil, Lady, and Trish, both ingame and cutscenes: This requires not only the grunt work of actually creating the animations, but designing them from scratch (especially the choreography for cutscenes). There are dozens of decisions to be made before the animation can even begin, and many times new models are created just for the sake of a cutscene (Vergil's cloak, for instance). Each attack must be planned around the existing gameplay and designed to work well and provide a reasonable challenge before you touch a single limb, and even then you have hundreds of individual animations to create from scratch as they need to be modern and you couldn't transfer the animations from DMC 3, anyway. The particle effects alone would consume a massive chunk of this workload.

Estimated time: Too much time. At least a month for the cutscenes and one month each for every character if we're being absurdly optimistic. Making sure it all works fluidly and looks right for the individual characters is tough even when you're able to reuse one or two things from Dante.

The actual combat for each character
: In tandem with the animators, you adjust the force, hitboxes, distance traveled, invincibility frames, leg height animations, and a few other things for every single frame of animation, and with each iteration it's possible you'll both have to redo a lot of work (including removal and replacement of a previous day's work because it needs to be iterated heavily). There's a lot of trial and error and testing that needs to be done for every situation to make sure it plays right and feels like a real improvement after 7 years, while still fitting within the games existing mechanics.

Estimated time: I honestly don't know. For each character, over the course of the entire development, this has probably been the focus and has required most of the development resources. I'd say several months if you lumped it all together.

Reactions to additional abilities that weren't accounted for vanilla DMC 4
: The effects of Trish's lightning, Vergil's summoned swords, and Lady's explosive loadout could all have properties that weren't shared by Nero or Dante in the original game. As such, each enemy and boss needs a way to respond to these new abilities. Vergil's raining swords are a perfect example as they appear to freeze the enemies as they are stunned, as well as Judgement Cut End.

Estimated time: This could have taken a couple days, honestly, since a lot pieces are already there. Deciding to actually have these effects probably took longer, and testing them longer still. Maybe a week or two if I'm optimistic.

I could go further with the additional costumes for each of the four characters who have them (Gloria was already there) and the adjustments to autosaving and Proud Souls, but I think you can get a rough idea of those from the DmC changes that are similar. So yeah, I'm sorry, but I feel like it's not even comparable, and I haven't gone all that in depth despite this wall of text. I'd like to be more succinct, but creating games is a complicated process that shouldn't be underestimated, and it always hurts developers when outsiders make uninformed assumptions of what it takes to change or add to a game. The design and testing process alone are invaluable and unquantifiable, outside of the actual grunt work.

TL : DR Modders could have (and did) make most of the changes introduced in DmC: DE. I'd like to see any modder in their right mind try to add what DMC 4: SE is offering without losing their mind and soul in the process.
All that work and I'm still not impressed with it.

Until I actually have the game in hand, this all sound like listing off unprovable info.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
All that work and I'm still not impressed with it.
1389473_462184590590738_628376138_a.jpg
 

scionicspectre

Well-known Member
Oh wow, it really does seem like they did a laughably low amount of work when you don't even cover half of what they actually changed, just assume they didn't play test, and trivialize all the more impressive additions.

Good thing most people actual read the change log and appreciate all the work the devs did.


I mean, Jesus Christ, it looks like you just skimmed through the change log while scrolling down at full speed, then decide to write about it.

I admit that I willingly used less favorable language while describing the less impressive DmC changes and spoke favorably of the difficulty of actual production work, but even if you ignore my tone, the raw information is there. I did spend a day reading the entire changelog the day it came out, so unless further updates added a lot more I don't think I'm missing the actual KINDS of work done, most of which comes down to animation speeds and time windows. That's the thing, though- some of those items are much bigger than others, and I don't mean to pretend they didn't do a lot of work on DmC: DE. They did! It's just not easily comparable to what must have been done on the production side of DMC 4: SE.

I'd like to save everyone's time and not go line by line through the changelog, but I get the feeling that even if I did and made very good points and found a way to demonstrate minimum and maximum timelines to you, it still wouldn't convey the full picture and you still wouldn't like to believe me.

I've been working with realtime rendering and game engines for a very long time, mainly on the animation and art creation side of things, so I am understandably biased towards that side of production, but I understand what it takes to program these systems and I've worked with many developers who admit they don't envy the amount of work I have to do. Even then, you can't get all this stuff and just quantify it when so much preponderance, design, iteration, and testing goes on.

But, @Bazilican has a very good point to make. It doesn't matter what changes you make or how hard won they were if they aren't appreciated by the players, and I admit that, despite the amazing amount of work they've done, they could have easily tweaked some stupid-obvious things like the Bloody Palace timer. You could argue that the insane amount of work on the new characters only makes the lack of these changes more insane, and I'd agree with that. But I'm also inclined not to care too much since I liked the game already and these characters add a substantial amount of value in comparison. It's difficult to look at anyone with a straight face and say it's a problem when I've been enjoying DMC 4 for years without significant problems.

At any rate, you can continue reinforcing your bias by pretending I haven't read anything and I don't know anything, but if you investigate this field yourself and learn about what it takes to create a game, you may be able to refine your perspective on the situation somewhat regardless of what you think of me, personally. If nothing else, refer to the people involved with these projects to see how they feel about the changes and how difficult they were to make.
 
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Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Come on... let's not play the "you're biased" card this early on.

We're all DmC fans here... there's few enough of us as it is, you know. Let's not fight amongst ourselves any more than we have to.
 

scionicspectre

Well-known Member
Well, yeah, I love DmC. I'm not talking smack on DmC or DmC: DE themselves. I just don't want people thinking that DMC 4: SE isn't at the very least as significant an upgrade as DmC: DE was, at least when it comes to the work load. It would be absurd to think otherwise, and I think I've laid out more than enough reasons to let it go, now.

Like I said, I think the bias is against me and the way I described the development work, not a bias for DmC or against DMC 4: SE. I'm sorry for letting this get so heated and wasting so much of everyone's time.
 
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