Cabbage Detective
Cabbages <3
all right my first question is did Vergil even know that Dante and Kat wasn't real? and second how come Kat didn't have a hollow version (ingame) while Dante did? what do you guys think?
Two questions about Vergil's downfall
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AlchemistFromEden
Well-known Member
Kat wasn't hollowed out until she insulted vergil because his mind was still relatively intact and not ****ed up unlike when he met dante where his mind was in a much worse state and yes he is most likely aware that they weren't real but he still enjoyed himself in his alternate reality
Cabbage Detective
Cabbages <3
Ah so i guess he cared about Kat until she compared him to Dante?
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Pretty much yes, I think he cared for her even in DmC, but was ready to abandon her for "the greater good". That's also why there was a hole in his heart untill he "killed" her. I guess "killing" them a metaphor for "erasing every last emotional bonds he has with them".
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Look...
In Persona 4, the people who enter Mayonaka (the TV World) create their own "sections of reality" and also create their own "phantoms". Not just their own shadows who taunt and try to dispose of them, but also the voices of the people in their everyday lives who affect them negatively.
That's what happened here.
Vergil was in hell. That place had the power to make Vergil lose control of his suppressed self. Then, when Vergil got it back by defeating his Shadow, his phantom of Dante, and his phantom of Kat (who were all part of his suppressed id) he became more powerful than ever before.
This is due to the corruption of his DT, and due to the atmospheric affects of hell. Both of these things increased his power considerably.
It was real. They were all physical projections of his mind (because hell created them), but it was all real.
In Persona 4, the people who enter Mayonaka (the TV World) create their own "sections of reality" and also create their own "phantoms". Not just their own shadows who taunt and try to dispose of them, but also the voices of the people in their everyday lives who affect them negatively.
That's what happened here.
Vergil was in hell. That place had the power to make Vergil lose control of his suppressed self. Then, when Vergil got it back by defeating his Shadow, his phantom of Dante, and his phantom of Kat (who were all part of his suppressed id) he became more powerful than ever before.
This is due to the corruption of his DT, and due to the atmospheric affects of hell. Both of these things increased his power considerably.
It was real. They were all physical projections of his mind (because hell created them), but it was all real.
LysseC
Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
So we have a PHYSICAL manifestation/projection of the incarnation af Vergil's fears (who are voiced by Hollow Dante and semi-Hollow Kat)? That is really a good explanation for what happens in VD!
I always took it as some sort of dream, but your idea works even better.As for Kat not being Hollow, I simply quote AlchemistFromEden:
I think it really is particular the fact that it was Kat, and not Dante, who gave Vergil the first push. It shows that he somehow cares about what she thinks of him.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
So we have a PHYSICAL manifestation/projection of the incarnation af Vergil's fears (who are voiced by Hollow Dante and semi-Hollow Kat)? That is really a good explanation for what happens in VD!
As for Kat not being Hollow, I simply quote AlchemistFromEden:
I think it really is particular the fact that it was Kat, and not Dante, who gave Vergil the first push. It shows that he somehow cares about what she thinks of him.
It's the suppressed love he felt from her in the comic. He wiped his memory, but the feeling resurfaced after spending time with her. He was able to control his love, but not to the point where he could eliminate it completely.
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Well, this is a very good theory, but I don't think he was literaryly in hell. I think it was his mind. You know, just like that world Dante went to to unlock his DT, this was Vergil's "Mind World" or whatever you want to call it.
LysseC
Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
Yessssssss! *LysseC is having her VxK moment...*
That's the point! He did care about her, and, deep down, I don't think that he would be too glad to see her getting with Dante.
LysseC
Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
What if hell is just some sort of place in our minds? I mean, something like each one of us has their own personal hell, which is not a separate dimension, but some sort of "mental" dimension?
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Who knows? In real life, this might very well be the case ^_^
But in DmC, I guess it is an actual, phisical place you can enter through the hell gate. So I'll stick with my theory that Those places Dante and Vergil enter, are like a visualization of their minds or something.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
It was an "Alternate Heaven" that the race of Nephilims created. The game didn't outright say that, but it was implied when Phineas identified the statue as one of the last great Nephilim.
Dante's mind was simply a portal to that world. It worked like the "Velvet Room".
(04:51 for "Entrance" to Velvet Room)
Why would it be inside his mind? Just because they're both Nephilim, doesn't mean the last one had any connection to Dante to begin with.
The statue/nephilim was just there to hold his DT power for him because Eva stored it there. She probably had to do it by force because neither Heaven nor hell wanted anything to do with Eva. The Nephilim probably only allowed her to store it there only because her son himself was Nephilim, and not because they felt they owed anything to either Sparda or Eva.
Edit:
No, he wouldn't. Not just because of his hidden feelings, but also because of his hatred for his brother.
That would pretty much be in line with what I've been saying, the only difference being that the dimension itself was manifested from their minds instead of their minds having a reaction to the dimension itself.
Why would the power already be stored within themselves? No, they had to go out and look for it; they literally had to visit another plane of existence just to find it. That was how well hidden the DT was.
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Hmm, I don't remember what Phineas said exactly, but if they really had an "Alternate Heaven", wouldn't that mean that only Nephilim can enter that place, making it pretty difficult for the demons to eradicate them if they just stayed there?
Well, why wouldn't it? Isn't it possible that he was basically born with the power of the DT (which Phineas kinda hinted at, if you asked me) that had to be unlocked by kind of "exploring" themselves, their mind and innermost feelings or something? I'm not sure, it's kinda weird, I mean, their amulets also seem to play a big part in it and stuff...
And, uh, I don't really understand what you are trying to tell me with them both being Nephilim and not having a connection and stuff...? Sorry for being dumb ._.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
I'm saying...
That the big statue that gave Dante (and most likely Vergil) his DT, had almost nothing to do with the Sparda family other than keeping their DTs safe.
And if their power was "hidden all along" then why didn't Vergil find it first?
He didn't unlock his "true" DT (Seiyan Mode) until he went to hell.
His mother told him flat out: "You're dead."
His mother was not a phantom/hollow (like the white dead ghost Dante and Kat were)
So, it's probably safe to say that his mother was there, and was real.
She wouldn't be inside his head.
So, if that place was really hell, then the place Dante visited was probably "Abandoned Heaven". The Nephilim were wiped out, leaving it completely empty. Some of the monsters from Limbo took shelter there because they most likely wandered off from Limbo.
Were the monsters inside Dante, too? Most likely, they weren't.
When you look at it that way, the chances of those planes of existence being inside their heads are awfully low.
Their souls went to those places, which is why the camera zoomed in on their heads when it happened. It was an out-of-body experience.
If Kat can leave her body to go to Limbo, then the twins can probably do the same for Abandoned Heaven and hell.
Edit:
I know I said Vergil didn't unlock his DT until after he went to hell, but I was slightly wrong about that.
He had it in the comic.
But he wiped his memory. When he did that, he most likely wiped his DT completely from his body, sending it to hell, instead of "Alternate Heaven."
When he went to hell, his fears were there, waiting for him. When he defeated them, he absorbed their power, along with the bit of the power of hell itself that the Hollows had within themselves to maintain their physical existences.
Edit:
That's why Vergil's eyes had kept going red whenever he defeated one of them. It was the corruption of hell itself that was slowly making him go insane.
The hell plane created the physical manifestations of Vergil's fears and hidden desires. The only way he could get his amulet back, and restore his DT (hidden desires), was to defeat his fear and Hollow Self that came from his mind and that hell itself gave a physical form to torture him.
That the big statue that gave Dante (and most likely Vergil) his DT, had almost nothing to do with the Sparda family other than keeping their DTs safe.
And if their power was "hidden all along" then why didn't Vergil find it first?
He didn't unlock his "true" DT (Seiyan Mode) until he went to hell.
His mother told him flat out: "You're dead."
His mother was not a phantom/hollow (like the white dead ghost Dante and Kat were)
So, it's probably safe to say that his mother was there, and was real.
She wouldn't be inside his head.
So, if that place was really hell, then the place Dante visited was probably "Abandoned Heaven". The Nephilim were wiped out, leaving it completely empty. Some of the monsters from Limbo took shelter there because they most likely wandered off from Limbo.
Were the monsters inside Dante, too? Most likely, they weren't.
When you look at it that way, the chances of those planes of existence being inside their heads are awfully low.
Their souls went to those places, which is why the camera zoomed in on their heads when it happened. It was an out-of-body experience.
If Kat can leave her body to go to Limbo, then the twins can probably do the same for Abandoned Heaven and hell.
Edit:
I know I said Vergil didn't unlock his DT until after he went to hell, but I was slightly wrong about that.
He had it in the comic.
But he wiped his memory. When he did that, he most likely wiped his DT completely from his body, sending it to hell, instead of "Alternate Heaven."
When he went to hell, his fears were there, waiting for him. When he defeated them, he absorbed their power, along with the bit of the power of hell itself that the Hollows had within themselves to maintain their physical existences.
Edit:
That's why Vergil's eyes had kept going red whenever he defeated one of them. It was the corruption of hell itself that was slowly making him go insane.
The hell plane created the physical manifestations of Vergil's fears and hidden desires. The only way he could get his amulet back, and restore his DT (hidden desires), was to defeat his fear and Hollow Self that came from his mind and that hell itself gave a physical form to torture him.
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Hmm, ok, what you say makes sense, but I still kinda think that it would work with those places being some sorta visualization of their souls/mind/idk what to call it, but yeah, it being hell and abanoned heaven kinda works too.
LysseC
Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
So, if I get it right, this hell Vergil is sent to is a "real" dimension (in the sense that it's not a vision) that can still be influenced by his mind?
And, well, he used DT when fighting Dante in Mission 20, so I don't think he sent his DT to this other dimension when wiping his memory... Him not having his amulet (and his DT with it) is probably a result of him (nearly) dying: that's probably the cause of him losing some of his powers, together with his self-confidence. I say this because, as you already pointed out, there's some sort of connection between a nephilim's "spiritual" growth and them unlocking their powers.
What do you think? Did I get it right, what you were saying? This is difficult... :ermm:
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
Eh, almost, I think what Unknown meant was that Vergil is in hell, and hell is another dimension which is using his innermost fears to punish him. And I think they meant that Vergil only partially sent his DT to hell.
*sigh* this stuff sure is complicated...
LysseC
Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
Ok, thanks! Now I get it, and I agree!
Onecrazymonkey1
Well-known Member
I'm still confused I think... :ermm: kind of like a hell within a hell within a hell dimension?...hellception
Sunaka Marién
Well-known Member
More like hell trolling him :troll:
idk, that's another reason I prefer it to be his mind world, much less complicated, lol.