Trish
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AlchemistFromEden
Well-known Member
hopefully this time she won't have anymore black leather outfits and will actually have depth
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
Yeah, and she'll be wearing this. It's no longer gloomy leather, instead a burst of colors made from cloth.
AlchemistFromEden
Well-known Member
or hopefully NT plays with more complimentary colorsYeah, and she'll be wearing this. It's no longer gloomy leather, instead a burst of colors made from cloth.
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
Macabre
Your Friend and Mine
I don't think good colour variance is something NT are shooting for with their rendition of the Devil May Cry universe.
Quite frankly I think Trish should be played for horror, because God knows she scared this living crap out of me when I was little. The idea that your enemy would make a sentient clone of your mother to get under your skin is incredibly disturbing, especially when the writers were never too keen to slam the door on the notion that Trish's relationship with Dante is romantic in nature. Horgh.
I...really don't understand this at all. I'm guessing it's a detail from the extended universe?
Quite frankly I think Trish should be played for horror, because God knows she scared this living crap out of me when I was little. The idea that your enemy would make a sentient clone of your mother to get under your skin is incredibly disturbing, especially when the writers were never too keen to slam the door on the notion that Trish's relationship with Dante is romantic in nature. Horgh.
I...really don't understand this at all. I'm guessing it's a detail from the extended universe?
Triceranuke
Well-known Member
Trish, short for Beatrice. As in Dante's love from Dante's Inferno where the names are taken from
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
Who is Beatrice?! Is she the damsel from Dante's Inferno?! BEATRICE!!! WHO ARE YOU?!
Personally, Trish wasn't that scary. But then again, you were little when you were introduced to her. She was, to me, just a clone of Dante's mother in appearance; she had her own personality, she wasn't human (obviously), and she wasn't his mother. She was something made disturb Dante, but DMC Dante is unflappable; he didn't react as Mundus had predicted, but he still cared for her in a way. So, for me, she wasn't a horror element to the story, the whole game was more horror themed than the rest of the installments. Considering DMC was a prototype of Resident Evil 4, that make sense.
DmC would actually be more able to pull the horror thing because of DmC Dante's personality. Yeah, he's sort of unflappable like DMC Dante, but he shows more emotions than DMC Dante, well, uncontrolled that is, especially aggression and anger, not so much sadness, happiness, etc. Hmm . . . how would DmC Dante having a breakdown be received?
Macabre
Your Friend and Mine
Yes, but as far as I know there is no character in DMC or DmC that has that name, so a theoretical DmC Trish would probably end up being a clone of Dante's mum as well.
One of the best parts of DMC was that there were extended periods without dialog, which gave the player breathing room to think about these things. It's especially effective in games which offer you little detail on what's going on, so in the prolonged sections where everyone kept their mouth shut the player is free to wonder why the camera held for so long on that blonde woman's picture, and when Dante is fleeing through the castle with the knowledge of what Trish was and that Dante wanted to fill her dark soul with liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggghhht, it plays on the active mind.
Dante, dude, I don't think it would be very healthy to fill her dark hole with light. Genetically speaking. Also horgh.
DmC, on the other hand, never shuts the hell up and lets you process anything. It's terrified you might forget what you're doing or think for yourself if it gave you seven minutes alone.
The thing is that being actually frightening or having Dante suffer in any meaningful way would break the power fantasy that DmC represents. He starts the game as a lothario who despite not having a day job apparently has enough money to hit up popular night spots, get wasted and score with multiple women at once, he never has to physically run from a fight and he never has an emotional breakdown when he remembers watching his mother have her heart eaten right in front of him.
This game was made under the strict impression that if Dante was disempowered at any time the player wouldn't like him because he wouldn't be "badass" enough.
Shin Muramasa
Metallic Stranger
Sorry, I took some parts of your post to focus on things.
First part, I think it's a trend that began with this generation of what many people call: "hand-holding". As much as I like tutorials and learning as much as possible about the story, gameplay, lore, etc. I seriously do not need to be told the same, damn, freaking thing over and over again! I know what the hell I'm supposed to do, game! I'm not a daft child! Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are a few games I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't do that, it literally throws you into the game to rot and suffer. In past games, in the past generations, games where like that, not a lot of telling you everything.
But not telling anything versus everything is too much of an extreme. That's why I don't like Demon's and Dark Souls, it makes us feel so disconnected from the game. Gameplay is up to personal taste; I didn't like it, but I didn't hate it. At the same time, I don't like games telling you everything over and over. Yeah, I know, save Serah, l'Cie and stuff. Yeah, I know! Fight the Reapers! Yeah, I know, GAME! Press "X" to Jason! DAMN IT, GAME! TELL ME HOW TO RELOAD AGAIN AND I'LL RELOAD YOU!
Anyway, the second part. I agree, that's why I was wondering how Dante having a breakdown would be received. It works with some and doesn't with others. Splinter Cell: Conviction, there's a part in the game where Sam Fisher is enraged after finding out about the truth of his daughter. He throws things, breaks stuff, kicks. Sam just loses his composure; he loses the image of this refined agent who would stay cool at all times. And it works by showing how Sam felt and about his situation. But the game was about Sam Fisher, the ex-Splinter Cell.
DmC wouldn't work, nor would DMC because of what they are, I agree with that. They're made with powerful characters in mind; characters that nothing can topple them over. God of War is a similar case with a powerful character, but Kratos is more of a character constantly crawling and fighting for his power, whereas both Dantes already have their power and don't need to fight for it.
Works with some, doesn't work with others. Still, I'd like a game where you're playing as a powerful character, but ends up as a nothing. Begins as a hated character because of his actions and attitude and ends as a hated character because of how pathetic he is.
Macabre
Your Friend and Mine
I'm certainly very glad that the Souls games have gotten the audience and appreciation that they deserve, and I also like how the plot is kind of impenetrable. In that way the narrative is kind of like the gameplay; simple and familiar yet uncompromisingly grim and unforgiving, and you won't get anything out of it unless your persevere. Remember how piece meal classic games were back in the day? In days of yore plot was literally too much for old timey memory capacity, so most old RPGs didn't even bother having them before Ultima 4. When you did reach points of exposition it was a treat that rewarded your perseverance. In fact I was talking to my missus about this very subject and she said that when she played games like Tomb Raider the cutscenes were such an amazingly new thing what with pre-rendered cinematics, that she'd push herself for hours just to see the next bit of plot.
I'm not saying it's an inherently better form of story telling, but it definitely has it's place in the world.
SERAH WANTS US TO SAVE COCOON. THAT'S OUR FOCUS! WE MUST SAVE COCOON BECAUSE SERAH WANTED US TO SAVE COCOON BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HER FOCUS WAS, AND IT'S WHAT OUR FOCUS IS, WHICH IS TO SAVE COCOON. SO COME ON! LET'S COMPLETE OUR FOCUS AND SAVE COCOON BECAUSE SERAH'S FOCUS WAS TO GIVE US OUR FOCUS TO SAVE COCOON. SO NOW WE NEED TO SAVE COCOON!
Not mine, it's from these guys: http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff13
Give them props, they're really good.
Actually God of War set itself apart for me because it was willing to have the character appear weak at times, and even integrate it into the gameplay. In the first game there's a point where Kratos finds a group of massacred soldiers, and it causes him to reminisce on his past crimes and motives, even realising the atrocities he has commited by simply saying, "By the Gods...what have I become?". Then he immediately goes back to gaily slaughtering monsters. That tiny moment gave us insight into Kratos and realisation that even if he does acknowledge his sins, he can brush them asside just as easily. Don't forget that this is also a character whose first appearance on camera is as he's killing himself because his despair has become too great to escape, and we play the entire game to discover why. I could list off plenty of times when Sony Santa Monica gave Kratos depth and potency that NT could only dream of.
DmC was the perfect time to introduce a version of Dante with a more grounded, emotionally broad persona. They could have introduced him picking his dinner out of a dumpster, getting turned out of hostels and failing job interviews, literally on the brink of starvation, and when Kat comes to see him, he smiles. Simply showing him at the lowest point he can be and yet that he has a spark of life that cannot be snuffed out would have been such a more potent introduction to the new character, and set him up for the triumphant apex of power that awaits him at the end of his journey. By having Dante apparently living a comfortable, unmolested lifestyle (Fingernails not withstanding), it doesn't set him off in a sympathetic or likeable way and just makes his philandering irresponsible nature portray him as a self-centered jerk, which is what he is.
...did you play God of War 3? Because...well...
AlchemistFromEden
Well-known Member
don't remember this turning into a pseudo-intellectual thread about why you think DmC has bad writing, oh wait macabre the extremely annoying pessimist who doesn't know how to write stories yet feels the need to nit pick about EVERY.LITTLE.THING. is here, and this is the point where i stop watching this thread so that i can preserve the braincells instead of reading a non-writers "critique" about a story, here's a hint that someone is not that smart,
"DANTE IS SUPPOSED TO BE EMPOWERED, they could've started the game out with him picking trash from a dumpster, but they didn't follow my fan fiction so the story is bad" yup, definitely good logic right there
"DANTE IS SUPPOSED TO BE EMPOWERED, they could've started the game out with him picking trash from a dumpster, but they didn't follow my fan fiction so the story is bad" yup, definitely good logic right there
Macabre
Your Friend and Mine
Nice to see the man who things ALL CAPS and bigger fonts are the key to a decent counter argument has woken up, nice to see you too Alchemist.
The key to empowerment in story telling is to have in wax and wane within the narrative. By having a character in a weakened state at the start of the story and having them triumphantly rise to power and success through there actions is vicariously exciting and engaging. By seeing a person at their lowest low, when they are utterly desperate, we pity them and want them to succeed so that when they become powerful we can look back on the mountain they have scaled and feel awash in the victory they have hard earned.
Look at Bioshock for example. In that game you start as just some average joe of unspecified origin who very narrowly survives a plane crash in the middle of the ocean. From the very first scene your character is weak, soaking and desperately dragging himself to dry land just to survive. While he may be a silent protagonist we are completely on board with his suffering and frailty. We discover the hidden city of Rapture alongside him, take our first Plasmid with him and, most likely, have our heads kicked in by Splicers and Big Daddies just as he does. We are weak and pathetic, barely capable of understanding this hostile world we are suddenly trapped in.
However, through exploration and tenacity, the player and protagonist both rise in power, gaining plasmids, tonics and weapons that make him so powerful that he's practically invincible. He understands where the little sisters will be, how to properly ambush Splicers, and the goings on of the destroyed city well simply through investigation. Player and protagonist both are on the same level, and that empowerment becomes the very thing that the game kicks out from under you with it's famous plot twist.
And you don't have to say I'm a bad writer by the way: The introduction to Dante I just described is from Batman Begins. It's how Bruce meets Ra's, effectively.
By having Dante start off so financially stable that he doesn't even get angry when his own house is destroyed in front of him, and so assured of his indestructibility that he doesn't even yell in surprise when the Hunter Demon smashes it's head through a window directly in front of him, he appears to be a character who is so powerful and cocksure already that there really is nowhere for him to go but sideways. He's as shallow as DMC1 Dante, but not nearly as likeable.
Personally if I was going to introduce Trish as an element in the new DmC, I'd probably want to wait until the Vergil DLC to come up with a fully fleshed out idea. Still, if I did I have a few ideas.
I was having this notion that DmC2 should start with Dante being hunted by the authorities for the mass destruction he caused by killing Mundas, and because people still see him as a terrorist thanks to Barbas. After a few levels of evading rogue demons and escaping from authorities, introduce a new Order, a kind of cult of personality that has come to worship Dante as a saviour for defeating Mundas, and they give him much needed asylum. Working with the New Order, Dante starts helping various people reestablish infrastructure throughout the world, and starts up dojos to help humans learn how to combat the demonic threat. However, the New Order are kind of like a creepy desperate fan club, and one of the schemes they have on the backburner is to bring Angels back into the world by cloning the last one to have visited on the earth: Eva. This clone, Beatrice, is born without Dante's consent and he is so disgusted that he takes her and absconds from the Order. By having a rapidly aging "daughter" under his wing, Dante is forced to mature and take a nurturing role with her in this new, chaotic world he has forged.
Crap I know, but I'll have a better idea of what I'd do with DmC2 when the first game's ending is released.
Trish.
She is my favourite character of the original series. She is a secondary character with not alot of story or personality, but the little we are presented with dragged me in. She is sexy and cool, a female version of Dante, Catwoman to Dante's Batman so to speak.
Yes, I would LOVE to see her return. We've had a few threads with this discussion before though and there have been some cool ideas amongst them. One of my favourite ideas was that Mundus created Trish as a demon, but she looks like Eva in that she has angelic features and such, like wings, for example. She would be a twisted version of an angel, a fallen angel in appearance. And she would be sent out to lead Dante to Mundus for vengeance (which would potentially be a story for the sequal).
She is my favourite character of the original series. She is a secondary character with not alot of story or personality, but the little we are presented with dragged me in. She is sexy and cool, a female version of Dante, Catwoman to Dante's Batman so to speak.
Yes, I would LOVE to see her return. We've had a few threads with this discussion before though and there have been some cool ideas amongst them. One of my favourite ideas was that Mundus created Trish as a demon, but she looks like Eva in that she has angelic features and such, like wings, for example. She would be a twisted version of an angel, a fallen angel in appearance. And she would be sent out to lead Dante to Mundus for vengeance (which would potentially be a story for the sequal).
darkmanifest
Unleash the blood
I've never thought of her with those words, but they're perfect. And since I'm a huge fan of Catwoman, too, it explains a lot why I love Trish.
I love Catwoman too. Especially in Batman: Arkham City. So sexy and beautiful, and really catty. (pun intended) ;P
Macabre
Your Friend and Mine
I actually kind of like this idea better, it errs closer to the previous canon while putting a nice spin on things. Hey, you could even have it that Mundas created her as a concubine for his amusement, just to really twist the nail in on how much of a monster he was.
I loved that old exchange Mundas and Dante had back in 1;
Mundas is so alien, so completely oblivious to how the emotions of human beings work, that he legitimately thinks that creating people to replace those he has killed might win Dante over. I mean, if you like something, wouldn't you want more of them? It's such a simple line, but it implies so much. After hearing that I couldn't wait to tap dance on the son-of-a-bitch's throat.
I'd love it if NT's rendition of Trish could retroactively capture a little of that effect.
So... she's 2D bordering on blank in terms of character and she doesn't have nearly as much time on screen as the guy you're saying she's a distaff counterpart to, so her only draw is that she's sexy and/or people project on her with their own interpretations on her behavior (which is appalling). That makes her a favorite?
