The time has come, bayo3 vs dmc5

[devil_inside123]

The release of bayo 3 kind of snuck on me but now that I'm aware of it I'm curious how people think it holds up to dmcv, being direct contemporaries and all, in specific I know @berto might have some thoughts on this. But in particular I noticed alot of parallels and can't help but compare and in my honest opinion the points that I found eerily similar I also found much better done in DMC 5, i. Particular viola vs Nero and Dante and bayo both being written off. Dantes felt much more earned l, especially considering the story was actually dealing with his past while bayo 3 is all new with no personal stakes, and I much could've done without the forced Luka romance, I love the guy, but much more as a bachelor, I had thought viola was jeannes daughter and would've prefered that, she looms more similar to her anyhow. Idk. While the individual setpeices were spectacular as ever the more serious aspects of the story feel either hamfisted or like a dollar brand version of dmc5's story. Only spot where it felt distinctly bayo that wasn't a one off fight were when THE OTHER two bayos were on screen. Main bayo feels much too vulnerable at multiple points in a way I'd say was out of Chara

 

[berto]

Since you asked me directly I'll give you as honest a response as I can.

I actually never thought of comparing them from the start. I find both a very different experience and I approach them both as separate entities. Yes, Bayo references DMC1 a lot but it also references RE2, VJ, Okami and everything P+has released up to the point of each game. That being said, the similarities are... there(?). Hard to deny. As send offs to the 'leads of old' I found neither a satisfactory experience. For one they're unwarranted. Neither Bayo nor Dante are in need of replacement, though I have a theory as to why Bayo was seen off at all. I know that the staff really don't know what to do with Dante so they made Nero, who's fine, but not exactly someone I'd pay full price to play the game for, and that goes double for Viola. I'm not playing DMC for Nero nor Bayo for Viola, nor Jeanne, for that matter, it's for the leads I fell in love with, so I already don't care for this aspect of these games.

I have other, heavy thoughts on Bayo 3 but, when it comes to a farewell titles, the whole thing came off as rushed and pushed. Bayo was never invulnerable, she took her beatings in both of the previous games, she had moments of vulnerability and was overpowered on more than one occasion but, here, she just kept dying. Yeah, her counterparts, but the idea is the same, specially when you start the game with a Bayo that very closely resembles the one we've known all along. I'm not a fan of these superoverwhelmingthereisnohopeofwinningwe'realldoomedthecharacterthatcouldnotbebeathasmettheirmatch BS scenarios. They're dumb and superficial. There are better ways to go about this and it cheapens both the characters and the story while making light of someone we know to be better, to just make someone who is too powerful for the lead without any real establishment, of which I'd argue DMC5 is also guilty of. It's the same as introducing a new character and showing how badass they are by kicking the s**t of an established one. They do this to Darth Vader aaaallllll the time. Some for DC and Marvel characters.

By simply being so powerful that no Cereza can win the villain and the stakes feel cheap and artificially high. It also stumps on the characters we've grown to love. The way Jeanne died, for example, was cheap and the character deserved far, far better. That was no way to treat a fan favorite from the series, to discard them with such mediocrity, as though she were a red shirt. You don't discard iconic characters like this, you have to give them a proper send off, a meaningful death or a sincere goodbye, which I don't think that other scene where she reappears counts as good enough. The same has to apply to all the other Cerezas; their deaths are just as red shirt. If each is just as important as our Bayonetta their deaths should be just meaningful and impactful to the narrative. The only one that got one that even came close was the Egyptian princes. Everyone else just dies and ok, cool, coving on.

While I don't think very highly of how DMC5 ended it very clearly did a better job with its characters departures than Bayo 3 did for this fact, alone. It's a dumb ending but there is an established reason for it. For Vergil it's a son, for Dante it's his brother, even if the English dub did a pi** poor job of establishing that. Cereza and Luka's final scene wasn't bad on its own but it wasn't earned. I have nothing against their romance. It's something that's been a thing since 1, so all that lesbian bs can get bent, but you have to establish it again in the game you are in if it's going to be a central part of their characters here. You can't simply say oh, they're a couple and they have a child. You have to show it at least once and, no, not at the end. One simple gesture of love when they meet would've gone a long way to cement this.

I'll edit this later with more but i have work in the morning so I'll have to leave this as is for now.

 

[devil_inside123]

Since you asked me directly I'll give you as honest a response as I can.

I actually never thought of comparing them from the start. I find both a very different experience and I approach them both as separate entities. Yes, Bayo references DMC1 a lot but it also references RE2, VJ, Okami and everything P+has released up to the point of each game. That being said, the similarities are... there(?). Hard to deny. As send offs to the 'leads of old' I found neither a satisfactory experience. For one they're unwarranted. Neither Bayo nor Dante are in need of replacement, though I have a theory as to why Bayo was seen off at all. I know that the staff really don't know what to do with Dante so they made Nero, who's fine, but not exactly someone I'd pay full price to play the game for, and that goes double for Viola. I'm not playing DMC for Nero nor Bayo for Viola, nor Jeanne, for that matter, it's for the leads I fell in love with, so I already don't care for this aspect of these games.

I have other, heavy thoughts on Bayo 3 but, when it comes to a farewell titles, the whole thing came off as rushed and pushed. Bayo was never invulnerable, she took her beatings in both of the previous games, she had moments of vulnerability and was overpowered on more than one occasion but, here, she just kept dying. Yeah, her counterparts, but the idea is the same, specially when you start the game with a Bayo that very closely resembles the one we've known all along. I'm not a fan of these superoverwhelmingthereisnohopeofwinningwe'realldoomedthecharacterthatcouldnotbebeathasmettheirmatch BS scenarios. They're dumb and superficial. There are better ways to go about this and it cheapens both the characters and the story while making light of someone we know to be better, to just make someone who is too powerful for the lead without any real establishment, of which I'd argue DMC5 is also guilty of. It's the same as introducing a new character and showing how badass they are by kicking the s**t of an established one. They do this to Darth Vader aaaallllll the time. Some for DC and Marvel characters.

By simply being so powerful that no Cereza can win the villain and the stakes feel cheap and artificially high. It also stumps on the characters we've grown to love. The way Jeanne died, for example, was cheap and the character deserved far, far better. That was no way to treat a fan favorite from the series, to discard them with such mediocrity, as though she were a red shirt. You don't discard iconic characters like this, you have to give them a proper send off, a meaningful death or a sincere goodbye, which I don't think that other scene where she reappears counts as good enough. The same has to apply to all the other Cerezas; their deaths are just as red shirt. If each is just as important as our Bayonetta their deaths should be just meaningful and impactful to the narrative. The only one that got one that even came close was the Egyptian princes. Everyone else just dies and ok, cool, coving on.

While I don't think very highly of how DMC5 ended it very clearly did a better job with its characters departures than Bayo 3 did for this fact, alone. It's a dumb ending but there is an established reason for it. For Vergil it's a son, for Dante it's his brother, even if the English dub did a pi** poor job of establishing that. Cereza and Luka's final scene wasn't bad on its own but it wasn't earned. I have nothing against their romance. It's something that's been a thing since 1, so all that lesbian bs can get bent, but you have to establish it again in the game you are in if it's going to be a central part of their characters here. You can't simply say oh, they're a couple and they have a child. You have to show it at least once and, no, not at the end. One simple gesture of love when they meet would've gone a long way to cement this.

I'll edit this later with more but i have work in the morning so I'll have to leave this as is for now.

Only reason I felt fine with Dante getting stomped is because it was vergil, someone who canonical did it before and they didn't show literally 8 different Dantes dying like chumps

 

[berto]

Only reason I felt fine with Dante getting stomped is because it was vergil, someone who canonical did it before and they didn't show literally 8 different Dantes dying like chumps

I'd be ok with it if it were a consistent thing but the issue in 5 is that it happens, Datne gets his ass handed to him in a big way to establish that these are the stakes, something so big Even he can't win against, but it doesn't persist. Once that's done we go back to Dante winning everything thus breaking those oh, so high stakes they established at the start showing that, in reality, there was no real grand danger, just needed to complete the sidequest to unlock I'm always winning mode.

One of the brilliant things about DMC3 is the progression of the fights between Dante and Vergil. In the first he loses. In the second it's left undecided but very evenly matched. It's on the 3rd fight, when Dante's gone through a whole lot of growing that he is unquestionably victorious. There is a progression and real sense of growth. It's not an easy road, either. He doesn't just get a beating from Vergil, he also, literally, gets his face stumped by Arkham and later he has to be 'saved' by Vergil. It's not a perfect presentation, in fact, it could use a bit of work, but it's a more well balanced path than 5. He's not always just winning.

That's a pretty heavy point of contention for me in 5, that when Dante struggles it's not really escalated properly. It happens but then goes away and then it kinda comes back because the story needs it with a build up that I find tenuous. With that being said, Bayo 3 is far more so.

 

[BrawlMan]

I don't care much for most of these discussions, but they're both great action games of high caliber. I will say DMC 5 has the better story, but I didn't exactly mind B3's story for the most part. Gameplay wise, DMC 5 technically edges out on this too, but B3 is no slouch either. This game by far has the most weapons variety of the hack and slash, and some of the best set pieces in the franchise. While the environments are nowhere near as detailed, at least there is variety just like the past games. I can't say the same for DMC 5. It's either demonic tree anal womb, or ruined city. It does get old. Otherwise, both action games are of great high caliber, and it is awesome to see that they both exist. We are in a world where DMC 5 exists, God of War 5 exists, and Bayonetta 3 exists. That's a win for all action gaming fans. Not to mention of the 2D and 2.5D variety are in a new golden age. I couldn't be happier.

 

[V's patron]

Viola is a better handled version of Nero. However I'm biased as I never clicked with Bayonetta's cast. Plus she's not fighting up against a younger version like Nero was with DMC3 Dante.

Using the Multiverse feels like a cheat in order to get an adult Viola that's Bayonetta and Luka's daughter. But Bayonetta and Jeanne are immortal so a timeskip would've been fine. I guess another problem is whether or not you need Bayonetta and Luka together to have Viola. Bayonetta and Luka are more like Dante and Patty. Bayonetta getting with someone new might've preferred. Or just having her being an orphan Bayonetta takes in and trains? I actually would've preffered that for Nero.

But pairing her up with Luka is faster. Maybe the new spinoff would help Viola's parents feel more likable?

In hindsight I would've swapped the plots for DMC5 and Bayonetta 3. Have Dante deal with multiverse while Bayonetta deals with having her Lumen and Umbran side would've fit better. Dante has more of a canonical history to reference so it's easier to build stages and scenarios. Where Bayonetta's hook is her parents and their warring clans. So exploring Bayonetta raised by Baldur should've been in 3's story. Lumen Bayonetta would've been a better rival for Bayonetta and Viola to face.

I haven't played Bayo 3 because I don't have a switch. But I'm a story gamer and I've seem enough of the story to judge. Both are fine but mixed bags storytelling wise. Hope this adds to the discussion.

 

[Morgan]

DMC5 was bad, and Bayonetta 3 somehow managed to be worse.

It's like P* is embarrassed that they initially conceived of Bayonetta, both the character and series, as unapologetically sexy and self-aware in a fun way, so to prove that they're Totally Serious Business, they try to inject "more gravitas" into the plot but shoved all their bad-fanfic-tier information in the dossiers for the characters (the FFXIII "the game is in the Datalogs" bit), then bring in an incompetent and downright poorly designed/ugly character to take the reins for the future of the series, and proceed with the constant killing of Bayonetta and the total indifference to Jeanne.

Like they got hung up on some criticism that Bayonetta (and Jeanne by association) were both "unflappable Mary Sues" who "weren't relatable" and needed to be taken down several notches, leading to a bad writer (or multiple bad writers) devising of an Anti-Sue to be the new protag because they think an incredibly flawed and good-for-nothing protagonist is somehow better than a strong and competent one simply by virtue of being on the opposite side of the spectrum. The character has no purpose, doesn't bring value to the game or its story and could easily be removed and replaced with a post-it note, and there's a bottomless void where their charisma should be, but they're just expected to get credit for existing.

Just ignore the parts where the game itself vacillates between Bayonetta being nerfed and her being more OP than before, engaging in the exact problem it claims to solve. Bayo gets plenty of pop-off moments and outrageous moves that she didn't have in the previous games, and the enemies are designed around her skillset, assortment of weapons, and the Demon Slave mechanic, to make her look more badass than before only to walk it back a cutscene later. Anyone remember the detail about Umbra Witches going through grueling, intense training, where fledglings could die from so much as failing a Witch Walk up a wall? And the main driver in Bayonetta 2's plot was that Bayo was caught off guard for a millisecond and almost got one-shotted if not for Jeanne taking the hit? In-game feats show that she's durable (she was headbutting skyscrapers since the first game), but she still needs to be downright flawless in every facet of battle where possible in terms of speed, etc. because if she makes a mistake, she goes straight to Hell.

Wait, did we emphasize her durability and speed? Nah, she doesn't need it anymore. Bayonetta in this game can repeatedly rip her own heart out of her chest and stand around doing a long-ass incantation, like that's not dangerous to do. It's clearly not fatal since she can regenerate now. She can also fuse with her contracts. (Shouldn't Jeanne, being a prodigy just as powerful in her own right, be able to do these moves too since at least the first game? Don't think about it). But also, because the plot has to happen a certain way, none of these brand-new abilities work since Singularity will no-sell it in a minute, and multiple Bayonettas get caught off guard and slaughtered in such quick succession it's a wonder if any of them experienced or survived the events of the second game.

Even then, it's no longer necessary that Umbra Witches be highly precise in execution of attacks and dodges or well-versed in all manners of disciplines like we were told they had to be, because Viola and her Mommy-didn't-teach-me-to-properly-Witch-Time self is here and not a blood splatter on a wall somewhere. How does she know both Bayonetta and Jeanne in her world yet is so disconnected from basic Witch functions? Don't think about it.

If Platinum weren't bad at math, I'd say Viola comes across as a calculated effort on their part to get fans of her but who hated Nero to implicitly admit that it was never about how Nero was executed or the plot that he was in. Viola is exactly the tryhard, bottomlessly cringe, wannabe edgy, new replacement protagonist that Nero supposedly was in 4. Except he had two games to cook, and both are games where he shares the spotlight with another character but still performed with some level of competence (IMO he suffers from not getting his debut game to himself. Imagine playing DMC1 but you have to play as some other non-Dante dude for even a third of it).

Viola gets the distinction of being the worst parts of 5!Nero, Luka, and Bella Swan and Katniss Everdeen. She spends most of her time acting like a child, doesn't develop in the story, is responsible for multiple major character deaths due to her incompetence, then gets an undue torch-pass in the same game she appears in despite never once actually proving herself worthy of it. She doesn't have enough missions in the game to get people used to her character or want to play as her, there's nothing in her moveset worth that want, and the enemies aren't even designed for her. Her story dials up the slapstick way too much and she engages in a weirdly dated but played-straight stereotype of "dyed hair punk millenial/zoomer (who's Not Like Other Girls!) demanding respect when she does nothing and eats dirt" nonsense that I'm pretty sure no Bayonetta fan asked for, ever, not even as a joke. She also spends every other line getting triggered about nicknames and reminding everyone "My name is Viola!" like Nero went on about "deadweight" in 5 (only to abandon her name at the end anyway?), making her less deserving of the torch-pass than Nero. At least we had one other game where he wasn't being a baby over being called a name he didn't like.

So yeah, this can't be calculated, because the math is bad. Platinum seems intent on telling people "We can do all kinds of characters, you know? We're not ALL about attractive women who acknowledge that part of themselves, you know? And we can totally definitely write a story with stakes, you knoowwwww? Please take us seriously, gamers and critics, we need the money!" but they must exist in an alternate reality where they didn't develop Nier: Automata, because 2B doesn't need to look like a Tumblr reject and didn't spend her entire screentime getting talked down to by everyone including clownshoes side characters and losing every major encounter she's in. She still has that sweet katana, though.

Also, the game commits the sin of having to buy the same skill multiple times on different weapons, which I was tired of when DMC3 did it and refuse to tolerate now.