Since when was this kind of thing a problem?

[Exejpgwmv]

During the demo and shortly after the games release the main complaint from people was that Demon Dodge, Trinity Smash, and Dt made it so that you could a lot of damage and build a lot of style points with very little skill.
But there has always been something in almost every DMC game that could either: Do a lot of damage, build a lot of Style points, or build a lot of DT energy if you knew how to use it.

First DMC1: Grenade launcher roll cancel(GlR cancel): Did a lot of damage, built style points quickly, and built DT energy quickly. Very little skill required to execute. And nobody complained.
DMC2: Haven't played it.
DMC3evil Trigger Explosion(DTE): Built a lot of style points and will insta kill most enemies even on DMD mode. Very little skill required to execute.
And nobody complained.
DMC4: Nero's right arm(buster)and Charge shot 3: Built significant amounts of style points, does a lot of damage( to both enemies and bosses) Very little skill required to execute. Nobody complained.
On Dante's side: Distorted Real Impact(DRI): If used correctly can build a lot of style points, one shot a boss(and enemies) on most difficulty levels(Maybe 2 or three hits on DMD). Very little skill required to execute. Nobody complained.
DmC: Demon Dodge(DD): Builds a lot of style and did a significant amount of damage. Takes very little skill to execute. NOW people are complaining.

You know, I thought the main main reason people used to not complain about these things before was because even thoguh the tactics I just listed were effective doing things like this:

Was much more gratifying, exciting, showed much more genuine skill, and was just all around more fun than doing something like this:

Yes I know there were more things in the other games that you could exploit. But I just wanted to list the most well known and prominent ones.

 

[Jak]

beats me...

 

[InfernalOverkill]

DMC4: Nero's right arm(buster): Built significant amounts of style points, does a lot of damage( to both enemies and bosses) Very little skill required to execute. Nobody complained.

?
Everyone complained about that.

I agree with your theory though. The cheap tactics in the older games still required you to do other things; DRI for example needed the boss to be stunned first, so it wasn't as much of a crutch as DD-1shot.

That first hunter vid is awesome. The way he's spazzing out with the dodges reminds me of this:

0:55 and on
The air guitar taunts after the TH dodges = awesome to watch.
I also like the use of Rebellion to counter the roundtrip. I did that all the time before I found out you could easily parry most things using Osiris :blush:

 

[Exejpgwmv]

quote="InfernalOverkill, post: 539342, member: 28624"]?
Everyone complained about that.[/quote]
Really? Well if people did I've never heard about it.

 

[The Final Offer]

It's because the unskilled and inexperienced didn't know anything about those moves or what they did. Yet, they still said DmC was for casuals when in truth, it was less frustrating to play than the DMC games.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

Random thought - DMC2 had the uber DT of ridiculousness. If you were super low HP then Dante's DT would transform into rape-mode. In said rape-mode everything was stronger than normal and it had 2 super attacks - 1 which was a beam of constant energy (until DT ran out) that could 1 shot anything in the game, the other was an explosion similar to Beowulf which hit basically everything in existence, and also did a fairly ridiculous amount of damage. A slight wtf moment when you first find that.

quote="InfernalOverkill, post: 539342, member: 28624"]?
Everyone complained about that.

Really? Well if people did I've never heard about it.[/quote]
It was/is one of the main points used against Nero. DB was a pretty cool edition, and necessary since Nero has no Trickster style, and it evolved into something better in DmC, but Buster was a gigantic crutch. Buster is proof that Nero was designed as a simple character in comparison to Dante. At least they made up for it with Max Act and TH; 1 being extremely satisfying to achieve, the other just fun as hell to do, even when it's unnecessary.

It's because the unskilled and inexperienced didn't know anything about those moves or what they did. Yet, they still said DmC was for casuals when in truth, it was less frustrating to play than the DMC games.

DD is a cheaper mechanic than anything in the older games because:

• It requires no setup/planning
• It's extremely hard to screw it up; even if you mistime the DD you'll still perform a regular dodge. There are exceptions to this (AoE attacks for example) but they're quite rare.
• It requires very little timing; compare the window you have to activate DD to TH. TH will actively punish you for screwing it up, and it has a much smaller window for it to actually work.

It's pretty hard to argue that DmC wasn't casualised for the sake of weaker players. Can it still be played to an extremely skilled level? Sure - just look at the Hunter vid in the OP or one of Sam D's vids, but it's still by far the least challenging DMC game ever.

 

[Snarks]

I think you have to refrain from using the Buster for maximum style points, and people have always complained that DMC4 is too easy. Which in comparison to DMC3, it still is.

If anything I would say that DmC's problem is that it's more of a combo sandbox than an action game at times. There are advanced techniques, but there are already so many options and ways to build style/ maintain your combo that they aren't even necessary, which makes them feel less rewarding than DMC3 and 4's advanced techniques, which are genuinely useful on Very Hard/ DMD.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

Random thought - DMC2 had the uber DT of ridiculousness. If you were super low HP then Dante's DT would transform into rape-mode. In said rape-mode everything was stronger than normal and it had 2 super attacks - 1 which was a beam of constant energy (until DT ran out) that could 1 shot anything in the game, the other was an explosion similar to Beowulf which hit basically everything in existence, and also did a fairly ridiculous amount of damage. A slight wtf moment when you first find that.


It was/is one of the main points used against Nero. DB was a pretty cool edition, and necessary since Nero has no Trickster style, and it evolved into something better in DmC, but Buster was a gigantic crutch. Buster is proof that Nero was designed as a simple character in comparison to Dante. At least they made up for it with Max Act and TH; 1 being extremely satisfying to achieve, the other just fun as hell to do, even when it's unnecessary.


DD is a cheaper mechanic than anything in the older games because:

• It requires no setup/planning
• It's extremely hard to screw it up; even if you mistime the DD you'll still perform a regular dodge. There are exceptions to this (AoE attacks for example) but they're quite rare.
• It requires very little timing; compare the window you have to activate DD to TH. TH will actively punish you for screwing it up, and it has a much smaller window for it to actually work.

It's pretty hard to argue that DmC wasn't casualised for the sake of weaker players. Can it still be played to an extremely skilled level? Sure - just look at the Hunter vid in the OP or one of Sam D's vids, but it's still by far the least challenging DMC game ever.

Couldn't the same thing be said for the DTE in DMC3? Because, literally all you had to do to execute it was hold down a button. No timing and no risk.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

I think you have to refrain from using the Buster for maximum style points, and people have always complained that DMC4 is too easy. Which in comparison to DMC3, it still is.

If anything I would say that DmC's problem is that it's more of a combo sandbox than an action game at times. There are advanced techniques, but there are already so many options and ways to build style/ maintain your combo that they aren't even necessary, which makes them feel less rewarding than DMC3 and 4's advanced techniques, which are genuinely useful on Very Hard/ DMD.

That doesn't make any sense. First off, how would it giving you a lot of combat options make it less of an action game.
And secondly, how would using the plethora of attacks/combos in the game to dispatch enemies make the game any less gratifying?
I can understand that argument from a difficulty standpoint but not because you have a lot of ways to keep a combo going.

 

[Bazilican]

Cause fans love to bitch about what doesn't look like the last game -_-

 

[The Final Offer]

DD is a cheaper mechanic than anything in the older games because:

• It requires no setup/planning
• It's extremely hard to screw it up; even if you mistime the DD you'll still perform a regular dodge. There are exceptions to this (AoE attacks for example) but they're quite rare.
• It requires very little timing; compare the window you have to activate DD to TH. TH will actively punish you for screwing it up, and it has a much smaller window for it to actually work.

It's pretty hard to argue that DmC wasn't casualised for the sake of weaker players. Can it still be played to an extremely skilled level? Sure - just look at the Hunter vid in the OP or one of Sam D's vids, but it's still by far the least challenging DMC game ever.

If I remember correctly, the demon dodge is rather similar to Bayonetta and several other games that have that specific dodge mechanic. Either you dodge at the right time or you dodge and gain the slow motion effect or you dodge a milli second too early and do a normal dodge. It's nothing new.

Depending on your skill level if it's too hard to screw up a dodge or not. I've met alot of gamers who can't pull off QTEs, proper double jumps, and enemy step. Believe it or not, if DmC was the first of the Devil May Crys, you'd have to learn everything for the first time. To alot of these people this is their first experience with a hack and slash of this magnitude.

We are known as experienced players. We've been playing DMC since DMC1 came out. Until I see a video that shows me the time extension for dodging in DmC compared to DMC, I'm not going to agree or disagree.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

Couldn't the same thing be said for the DTE in DMC3? Because, literally all you had to do to execute it was hold down a button. No timing and no risk.

Eh. You still had to wait for it to build, and it was a 1 time thing until you built your DT back up. Could a skilled player RG the hell out of everything and throw out a bunch of taunts to build it up really fast and abuse it? Yep. Could a bad player abuse it over and over? Unless they're using devil stars, nope.

Depending on your skill level if it's too hard to screw up a dodge or not. I've met alot of gamers who can't pull off QTEs, proper double jumps, and enemy step. Believe it or not, if DmC was the first of the Devil May Crys, you'd have to learn everything for the first time. To alot of these people this is their first experience with a hack and slash of this magnitude.

We are known as experienced players. We've been playing DMC since DMC1 came out.

Fair enough. I didn't think of that.

 

[The Final Offer]

Fair enough. I didn't think of that.

Imagine the frustration of trying to create a Devil May Cry game for inexperienced players while keeping it a challenge for the experienced.

Old fans should be happy that Capcom wants more people interested in such a great series.

I think DmC did a phenomenal job of making that happen. Capcom had reached it's goal to accessing new players and now they have new fans that know of the Devil May Cry brand. They can release DMC 5 or DmC 2 at a higher skill level with no reprocussions.

I fantasize that they will release something like Devil May Cry: Sons of Sparda. It'll be fan service. Both Dantes on a new engine each equipped with different button layouts like in their respective games. Their dimensions could clash so we can get a cooperative mode. You unlock both Vergils after you beat the game with either or Dante.

I'll say this once again, Capcom is sitting on a Gold Mine.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

Would definitely be interesting if the next DMC/DmC game that came out had both Dantes available at character selection.

One of the things DMC2 got really right was not (overtly) forcing a new player upon us. Sure you had to complete Lucia's game to access DMD, but she was a decent character to play and most importantly, didn't take any stage time away from Dante.

If they followed the DMC2 model by letting you choose who to play at the start of your playthrough; Nero, DMC Dante, and DmC Dante, they'd please almost everyone.

BP unlocked by beating hard mode with Nero, DmC Dante or DMC Dante
DMC Vergil unlocked by beating DMD with DMC Dante
DmC Vergil unlocked by beating DMD with DmC Dante
Trish unlocked by beating DMD with Nero (because why not lol)

DMC Dante, DMC Vergil and Trish could have 1 set of 20 missions - floaty red ring thingys for any required platforming
Nero, DmC Dante and DmC Vergil could have the other set of 20 - platforming wouldn't have to be cut because Nero's Hell Bound would interact the same way as DmC Dante and Vergil's Angel Lift. The Demon Pull platforming isn't really a loss.

I'd buy a DMC game with 6 different characters for the BP alone. Infinite replay value

 

[Snarks]

That doesn't make any sense. First off, how would it giving you a lot of combat options make it less of an action game.
And secondly, how would using the plethora of attacks/combos in the game to dispatch enemies make the game any less gratifying?
I can understand that argument from a difficulty standpoint but not because you have a lot of ways to keep a combo going.

Because I came into DmC after practicing DMC4. The most ridiculous, never-ending combos in DmC just weren't as satisfying as even one or two successful Aerial Rave/ Dark Slayer jump cancel combos. Combos in DmC can last forever as long as you don't get your hands tangled switching between all the weapons. It's completely viable in a number of fights to just hook an enemy or two and keep flying infinitely into the air while the enemies below wander around. You don't have to bother with dodging or crowd control because unless there are some harpies (can still shoot their wings off with one shotgun blast), you pretty much have it under control. DMC3 and 4 countered air combos with enemies who fly or can do uppercuts, so you still need to be paying attention. To stay airborne in DMC3 and DMC4 takes tons of practice and jump canceling.

In DmC, the combat is basically designed to accommodate endless combos. Too many enemies on the ground? Just fly away. It's fun for a while, and I don't particularly enjoy beating on Frosts just to practice "simple" jump cancel combos in DMC4, but that means when I get it, it's just more gratifying to me. Even though DMC4's jump canceling is overly-demanding compared to DMC3 and you have to press a ridiculous number of buttons to accomplish anything. Don't take this at face-value or go into a Marvel vs. Street Fighter debate, but sometimes DMC3/4 feels more like Street Fighter (precise, difficult, but effective combos), and DmC is Marvel vs. Capcom (flashy, fun, effective combos with a lower execution barrier, though still potential for more difficult combos).

 

[The Final Offer]

Would definitely be interesting if the next DMC/DmC game that came out had both Dantes available at character selection.

One of the things DMC2 got really right was not (overtly) forcing a new player upon us. Sure you had to complete Lucia's game to access DMD, but she was a decent character to play and most importantly, didn't take any stage time away from Dante.

If they followed the DMC2 model by letting you choose who to play at the start of your playthrough; Nero, DMC Dante, and DmC Dante, they'd please almost everyone.

BP unlocked by beating hard mode with Nero, DmC Dante or DMC Dante
DMC Vergil unlocked by beating DMD with DMC Dante
DmC Vergil unlocked by beating DMD with DmC Dante
Trish unlocked by beating DMD with Nero (because why not lol)

DMC Dante, DMC Vergil and Trish could have 1 set of 20 missions - floaty red ring thingys for any required platforming
Nero, DmC Dante and DmC Vergil could have the other set of 20 - platforming wouldn't have to be cut because Nero's Hell Bound would interact the same way as DmC Dante and Vergil's Angel Lift. The Demon Pull platforming isn't really a loss.

I'd buy a DMC game with 6 different characters for the BP alone. Infinite replay value

With this new generation of technology this game may very well be on the surface. It's been said that it's alot easier to make an open world game with the latest generation of consoles.

I'd love it, simply love it, if I could see Nero and DmC Dante with DMC Dante's arms around their shoulders telling them that "Things don't look so grim. We got all the tools that we need!"

Could you imagine that? All of the weapons in the Devil May Cry shop available for use by each character?

That's just too good to be true. These ideas of ours. That's game of the year material.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

Because I came into DmC after practicing DMC4. The most ridiculous, never-ending combos in DmC just weren't as satisfying as even one or two successful Aerial Rave/ Dark Slayer jump cancel combos. Combos in DmC can last forever as long as you don't get your hands tangled switching between all the weapons. It's completely viable in a number of fights to just hook an enemy or two and keep flying infinitely into the air while the enemies below wander around. You don't have to bother with dodging or crowd control because unless there are some harpies (can still shoot their wings off with one shotgun blast), you pretty much have it under control. DMC3 and 4 countered air combos with enemies who fly or can do uppercuts, so you still need to be paying attention. To stay airborne in DMC3 and DMC4 takes tons of practice and jump canceling.

In DmC, the combat is basically designed to accommodate endless combos. Too many enemies on the ground? Just fly away. It's fun for a while, and I don't particularly enjoy beating on Frosts just to practice "simple" jump cancel combos in DMC4, but that means when I get it, it's just more gratifying to me. Even though DMC4's jump canceling is overly-demanding compared to DMC3 and you have to press a ridiculous number of buttons to accomplish anything. Don't take this at face-value or go into a Marvel vs. Street Fighter debate, but sometimes DMC3/4 feels more like Street Fighter (precise, difficult, but effective combos), and DmC is Marvel vs. Capcom (flashy, fun, effective combos with a lower execution barrier, though still potential for more difficult combos).

Why would you intentionally play the game in a way you find boring?

 

[Exejpgwmv]

Eh. You still had to wait for it to build, and it was a 1 time thing until you built your DT back up. Could a skilled player RG the hell out of everything and throw out a bunch of taunts to build it up really fast and abuse it? Yep. Could a bad player abuse it over and over? Unless they're using devil stars, nope.


Fair enough. I didn't think of that.

I still think DD has more risk to It since none of the other mechanics I listed required that you had to let an enemy come close to hitting you. Which means trying to execute DD on low health can be dangerous.

 

[Snarks]

Why would you intentionally play the game in a way you find boring?

I'm not sure you get it. Where did I ever say anything was "boring?" I said it was less rewarding. The game gives you so many ways to just combo forever that there isn't an incentive to jump cancel. In DMC3, even one of the most simple advanced moves, repeatedly jump canceling Killer Bee, is incredibly useful, especially against enemies that can't be juggled. I'm saying the incentive and payoff for advanced techniques is much higher in DMC3 and 4 than in DmC, not that DmC is "boring." If you drop your combo, so what? Just immediately grab the same enemy with your hook and start it again. Just because there are as many/ even more ways to combo doesn't mean it's as good/ better than the previous games in that regard.

Not that it's really related that much to the original topic. I don't think DT Explosion will get you end-mission S style ranks in DMC3. Certain enemies on DMD resist Buster as well as the relatively long cooldown time before it gives you style points again, making it impractical for SSS. Maybe you could do it with Real Impact in DMC4, I wouldn't know. Seems slow and risky, but DMC4 already gets criticized plenty for being too easy and unfocused.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Not that it's really related that much to the original topic. I don't think DT Explosion will get you end-mission S style ranks in DMC3. Certain enemies on DMD resist Buster as well as the relatively long cooldown time before it gives you style points again, making it impractical for SSS. Maybe you could do it with Real Impact in DMC4, I wouldn't know. Seems slow and risky, but DMC4 already gets criticized plenty for being too easy and unfocused.

So, let me get this straight? If I make it impossible to get SSS rank in DmC, will you admit its the hardest game in the series? I'm tired of this ridiculous argument, DmC is about improving your score and trying to put on an elaborate combo string without getting hit or being interupted, if you sit there and demon pull enemies off the edge of a level, you're totally missing the point Second, if you get hit in DmC, you're doing it wrong, until I see a video of you fighting with incredible variety on DMD without any damage, preferably mission 16, I'm going to have to take your opinion on DmC's overall difficulty with a massive amount of salt.

I'm not sure you get it. Where did I ever say anything was "boring?" I said it was less rewarding. The game gives you so many ways to just combo forever that there isn't an incentive to jump cancel.

Yeah, jump canceling poorly is easier, jump cancelling so it doesn't look stupid and repetitive is still hard. The reason this is because its just one tool out of many to mix up attacks unlike the older games.
Additionally, jcing the same weapon actually leads to less points that jcing and mixing up the various weapons which is actually a lot harder, because you are not only alternating between three modes, human, angel, and demon but you're also managing gun charges, and dpad weapon toggling. This is important, because Jcing intelligently not only looks more stylish but also resets your the repetition counter, which allows you to get higher scores, the ultimate metric of DmC's final mission ranks, just because you get SSS doesn't mean you got the highest SSS with the fastest completion time for the level.

I sincerely believe that NT set out to create the most expressive action game ever made and succeeded. I can't think of any other game that goes out of its way to give you so many options to express yourself during every combat encounter.

In DMC3, even one of the most simple advanced moves, repeatedly jump canceling Killer Bee, is incredibly useful, especially against enemies that can't be juggled. I'm saying the incentive and payoff for advanced techniques is much higher in DMC3 and 4 than in DmC, not that DmC is "boring." If you drop your combo, so what? Just immediately grab the same enemy with your hook and start it again. Just because there are as many/ even more ways to combo doesn't mean it's as good/ better than the previous games in that regard.

Honestly, what difference does it make, why is it not rewarding to try to improve the visual spectacle of your combos and your score over and over? If you drop a combo, you ****ed up, and you should get better so next time its even more seamless. I don't think you can really tell me that doing the following isn't satisfying.