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Roguelike: The Solution to DmC's Difficulty Issue

Actually, the closest thing DmC has to royal guard style parry is the standing charged eryx punch, if you time it right like on the first or second glow your parry will not only stun an enemy, but also damage them. Eryx is the only weapon that allows that to occur. So it pretty much functions like a royal guard block, you stand still and then you push forward with your fist to parry and break your enemies defenses.
 
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DragonMaster2010 said:
You do realize that is not what that vid was for. That vid was for canceling out of one attack, and into another in reloading attack patterns akin to guard canceling and JC.

It's not smart to put words into my post you know damn well have nothing to do with what I suggested before.
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my mistake, I thought you were responding to my post. I should have realized that even though you were quoting me, you were actually responding to someone else when you started responding to things I hadn't said

To correct this miscommunication, I'm just going to say again that I'm talking about royal guard here, and the fact that nothing in DmC really compares to it. The parry mechanic people often talk about is actually an expansion of the clash mechanic, something that has existed since DMC1

OppressedWriter said:
Actually, the closest thing DmC has to royal guard style parry is the standing charged eryx punch, if you time it right like on the first or second glow your parry will not only stun an enemy, but also damage them. Eryx is the only weapon that allows that to occur. So it pretty much functions like a royal guard block, you stand still and then you push forward with your fist to parry and break your enemies defenses.
(media snip)
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Don't get me wrong, it's a really cool way to make the old DMC clash much cooler and more useful (and on a personal note I still find it disturbing how consistently well you can handle that many dreamrunners) but it's no royal guard. I'm going to link a video at the bottom, timestamped to the relevant 1 minute segment, but first I'm going to point out a few things that I want this video to highlight.

One of the biggest perks of mastering royal guard is the ability to completely nullify any attack that exists. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that some attacks in DmC simply can't be parried, which the parry mechanic compensates for by being extra good at countering charges and ranged attacks. Still, as someone who used to enjoy playing an immovable rock who didn't need to dodge for any reason, parrying leaves a lot to be desired.

The second huge perk is a guard's ability to end most attack animations, assume a guard, and then attack again -- this allowed players to circumvent attack cooldowns and get serious value out of abilities that were 1 hit wonders for every other style. Common applications were firing a shotgun or sniper rifle with the speed of a machine gun, interrupting million stab so players could get the damage but not the knockback, or correcting a badly planned over commit. If anyone here has any history with competitive smash bros, royal guard functioned almost exactly like l-canceling, only it can be done for any attack instead of just aerials. Obviously since DmC's parry is an attack, you can't really use it to reset an attack cooldown

The third big thing that royal guard boasts over DmC parry is the ability to guard attacks almost indefinitely, no matter how rapidly they are hitting you. A successful parry in DMC nullifies the internal block cooldown and allows the player to block again instantly. Famous examples of this at work are standing in vergil's spiral swords (featured in the video), standing in blitz lightning, and standing in the savior's massive world destroying laser. While moves like DmC's prop/shredder allow for a sustained block, the move has a set max duration and once it comes down the player would be vulnerable again. DmC mitigates this by not including any extremely rapid attacks like blitz lightning or savior lasers, however DmC parry would still be at a disadvantage if the player was attacked by too many different sources at the same time.

And the fourth big perk is more obvious and doesn't need such a wall of text (thank god) and that's the ability for a fully charged perfect release to deal more damage than any other attack in the game, by a lot.

I realize that was a huge amount of text and I'm grateful to anyone that stuck through it, so I'll just cut to the video now. Before anyone points out that it is actually a TAS, I chose this one because it was the only royal guard video I could find that showcased every one of the things I talked about in the same clip.

Video

TL;DR
- more damage than a sword master
- more damaging gunspam than a gunslinger
- complete immunity to absolutely any attack
- indefinite, uninterrupted blocking
- pure skill based. Despite these overpowered sounding perks some players don't touch royal guard because they can't get any use out of it

On a personal note, I also love that a good royal guard doesn't have to run from anything, not even DT vergil 3
 
Frostmourne said:
Well, I still prefer Swordmaster due to personal tastes, but ok.
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that is a 100% legit thing to feel. I like royal guard the most, but that doesn't mean I don't like anything else, especially some of the combos are just so spectacular. Twister into million carats is flashy and destructive as ****, and you've even got secret moves like crazy canceling tempest (yes, that's a double crazy twister) into ultimate tempest and just bathing in the rain of red orbs
 
Kam said:
my mistake, I thought you were responding to my post. I should have realized that even though you were quoting me, you were actually responding to someone else when you started responding to things I hadn't said

To correct this miscommunication, I'm just going to say again that I'm talking about royal guard here, and the fact that nothing in DmC really compares to it. The parry mechanic people often talk about is actually an expansion of the clash mechanic, something that has existed since DMC1


Don't get me wrong, it's a really cool way to make the old DMC clash much cooler and more useful (and on a personal note I still find it disturbing how consistently well you can handle that many dreamrunners) but it's no royal guard. I'm going to link a video at the bottom, timestamped to the relevant 1 minute segment, but first I'm going to point out a few things that I want this video to highlight.

One of the biggest perks of mastering royal guard is the ability to completely nullify any attack that exists. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that some attacks in DmC simply can't be parried, which the parry mechanic compensates for by being extra good at countering charges and ranged attacks. Still, as someone who used to enjoy playing an immovable rock who didn't need to dodge for any reason, parrying leaves a lot to be desired.

The second huge perk is a guard's ability to end most attack animations, assume a guard, and then attack again -- this allowed players to circumvent attack cooldowns and get serious value out of abilities that were 1 hit wonders for every other style. Common applications were firing a shotgun or sniper rifle with the speed of a machine gun, interrupting million stab so players could get the damage but not the knockback, or correcting a badly planned over commit. If anyone here has any history with competitive smash bros, royal guard functioned almost exactly like l-canceling, only it can be done for any attack instead of just aerials. Obviously since DmC's parry is an attack, you can't really use it to reset an attack cooldown

The third big thing that royal guard boasts over DmC parry is the ability to guard attacks almost indefinitely, no matter how rapidly they are hitting you. A successful parry in DMC nullifies the internal block cooldown and allows the player to block again instantly. Famous examples of this at work are standing in vergil's spiral swords (featured in the video), standing in blitz lightning, and standing in the savior's massive world destroying laser. While moves like DmC's prop/shredder allow for a sustained block, the move has a set max duration and once it comes down the player would be vulnerable again. DmC mitigates this by not including any extremely rapid attacks like blitz lightning or savior lasers, however DmC parry would still be at a disadvantage if the player was attacked by too many different sources at the same time.

And the fourth big perk is more obvious and doesn't need such a wall of text (thank god) and that's the ability for a fully charged perfect release to deal more damage than any other attack in the game, by a lot.

I realize that was a huge amount of text and I'm grateful to anyone that stuck through it, so I'll just cut to the video now. Before anyone points out that it is actually a TAS, I chose this one because it was the only royal guard video I could find that showcased every one of the things I talked about in the same clip.

Video

TL;DR
- more damage than a sword master
- more damaging gunspam than a gunslinger
- complete immunity to absolutely any attack
- indefinite, uninterrupted blocking
- pure skill based. Despite these overpowered sounding perks some players don't touch royal guard because they can't get any use out of it

On a personal note, I also love that a good royal guard doesn't have to run from anything, not even DT vergil 3
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Very true, but I don't think anyone was arguing that it should be used like the classic royalty, just that it was similar.
 
Besides, if you remain on the offensive while dodging and jumping in both DMC3 and DmC, there's a good chance you can avoid most hits -- if your skill level is high enough, I mean.
 
OppressedWriter said:
Actually, the closest thing DmC has to royal guard style parry is the standing charged eryx punch, if you time it right like on the first or second glow your parry will not only stun an enemy, but also damage them. Eryx is the only weapon that allows that to occur. So it pretty much functions like a royal guard block, you stand still and then you push forward with your fist to parry and break your enemies defenses.
Click to expand...

The thing is, that the Eryx counter is actually very easy to master compared to Royalguard. And Just Release is missing from this game and I liked that a lot. The closest thing we have to a Style in this game is High Time now, haha jk xD
 
Blue_Rose said:
The thing is, that the Eryx counter is actually very easy to master compared to Royalguard. And Just Release is missing from this game and I liked that a lot. The closest thing we have to a Style in this game is High Time now, haha jk xD
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This one is for you frostmourne, a better example of dodging and using snake eyes to triple dodge against Dreamrunners. I can't stress this enough, but the amount of thought put into DmC's combat is just insane.
 
OppressedWriter said:
I can't stress this enough, but the amount of thought put into DmC's combat is just insane.
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BUT DmC IS STILL ****. TE3 EXPERTZ TOLD ME SO.

Seriously though, that blew my mind right out of my f**king skull.

Edit: No. F**king. Way.

HOLY ****. :eek:

------------------------------------------------

2 T3H PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE DmC's COMBAT:

DO THIS. DO THIS RIGHT NOW AND I WILL TAKE BACK EVERYTHING I SAID.

-------------------------------------------------

OMG. I JUST CHOKED ON MY CRACKER JACKS. :dead:

THAT'S HOW GOOD THIS VIDEO IS.
 
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ef9 o shea said:
but that is impressive stuff from you :D
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Isn't it though?? You really do have to know what you're doing in order to get past six of them while using the DmC's version of "Guard Release" at the same time.

SamD just keeps taking these people to school, bro.
 
he is defo a DmC expert for sure but i think that you can move around the air way faster in DMC4 and you can gain huge momentum off of guard flying

i think DmC has the edge on the ground movement but DMC4 has it in the air as you can cover more ground quicker but that is just my opinion
 
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Well, I can't edit my post, so I'll have to double-post here.

The fact that SamD can use this "unevolved" control scheme to take on six drekavacs means that DmC's system still has a lot of merit and just becuase it has "less moves" than DMC4 doesn't make it any less awe-inspiring.

Besides, "Eryx-Counter" will never stop being awesome.
 
OppressedWriter said:

This one is for you frostmourne, a better example of dodging and using snake eyes to triple dodge against Dreamrunners. I can't stress this enough, but the amount of thought put into DmC's combat is just insane.
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that's actually really cool, I never realized you could use that ability to instantly disengage from a hit.
learning new things every day...
 
I really wonder how much of DmC's concepts would have been incorporated into a DMC5 had it been made. I mean, I believe Hideaki Itsuno became somewhat involved near the end of the development cycle of DmC, so I wonder how many of his own ideas carried over into Ninja Theory's product. The new found focus being on grappling, parrying, dodging, and the ultimate merging of most styles. Maybe those changes would've been more accepted in a Devil May Cry 5.

Although, while I love a lot of the new additions and improvements in DmC (Especially the grappling. I mean, could you imagine a refined Nero control scheme with the ability to pull enemies toward you and to push yourself to enemies?) , I don't think I'd be down with the merging of all the styles. The style switching in DMC4 to me was pretty much perfection, and although I don't analyze combat nearly as well as ChaserTech does (nor do I play as well), I am persistent in getting better at it, and it's one of the reasons why I always revisit DMC4 more commonly than DmC, which I've pretty much already completed 100% in just the last year.
 
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