Railazel's Problem Expectations

[Railazel]

I'm not really going for any major ideas here, but from the compilation of experience (videos, berto's personal commentary, the thread for the mechanics, and the "What we know so far" thread), I've come to give some predictions as to the problems that can come from a few of DmC's new mechanics. None of this is meant for bashing and I would suggest taking this stuff with a grain of salt as I've yet to play the game and I probably won't be able to until a demo is released. This is merely to give a sort of standard as to what to expect and, if I'm correct, talk about problems that NT might need to fix.

Auto Locking
To start off, I'll talk about the auto lock- on system for DmC. Now that manual lock- on is out, of course the control scheme has to change a bit. This wouldn't be a problem for games that lack or have a very basic grappling system. However, DmC's grappling system (and possibly some of its other mechanics) is a little more advanced than most. To compare, it has a longer reach than God of War 3's grab and has more functions than Nero's Devil Bringer, both of these were fairly close- ranged. But now that range is a bigger factor in DmC's grapple than it was in most other games of the same genre, targeting is now a much bigger factor as well.

Without a manual lock- on system, the camera is now fully free and must be manually moved. For most games with an auto lock- on, this is remedied by having the camera set on certain aspects of the enviroment. A famous use of this is when the camera focuses on key areas and gives the player a hint of what to do next. Also, since the characters would attack the closest enemy to them, auto locking made manual locking superfluous by a slight degree.

However, manual locking still had its uses in long range combat. Since there would be times where your opponent would be out of your range of attack and move in places where you can't see. Instead of trying to move your camera around to him, you can simply lock- on to him and your camera would naturally follow him.

So, what does this have to do with DmC? Ultimately, auto locking is dependent on three factors: Camera focus, player position, and target position. For auto locking to work, it has to be completely dependent on player position so that, no matter what happens, you'll always hit your target. This is will probably be the issue with some of DmC's mechanics in relation to its auto locking system. If these problems arise too often, NT might need to set its camera on the target that you are focusing on so that camera focus and target position are independent of the player's control, allowing us to completely focus on just playing the game. For grappling, it would help if the camera focused on the closest key area. Of course, this wouldn't happen during a regular battle, though it would definitly help during a boss battle like Poison.

Evasion
Now, there have been multiple attempts at making a form of evasion that was practical and easy. So far, the best form of evasion (from my experience) has been Bayonetta with a simple evasion button that dodged attacks from (if I recall) multiple directions. So far, though most people didn't have a problem with it, I've seen some faults from the dodging of DmC.

Since dodging is most effective with timing, it would be best for the full evasion maneuver to be made up of invincibility frames so that the player isn't harmed by the attack when the move starts. So far, I've seen players do dodges before the attack hits them. Not that that's bad since most people do that initially, but because there's a risk of a follow- up attack from the same or another enemy. Dodging precisely when the attack hits lessens that risk.

Platforming
This isn't a huge issue, but so far platforming seems to be difficult. Most people wouldn't mind this, however platforming is no longer about going from one platform to the next. Rather it has been about using your mind to figure out a way towards your goal. Ultimately, Platforming has become akin to Puzzle gaming. DmC can make or break this. Most of this goes back to the potential faults of its lock- on system though there's still a few things that NT might need to worry about.

So far, the problem with DmC's platforming is dealing with timing and distance. Most of the people who are having trouble with platforming are having such troubles because Angel Glide didn't reach far enough or they missed the chance to Angel Grapple, etc. Most of this could be remedied with practice, but a good platforming game depends on how well the player can change their enviroment and flow the actions together. So far, the best form of platforming looks alot like parkouring.

Conclusion
Again, this is all going off of what we know so far and from impressions I've gained from various sources. This is more or less a voicing of concerns that hopefully NT will notice and remedy, but because of the positive feedback from major media, I'm kind of worried that they won't. Nothing major to report here, just some stuff that people should be wary of.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I'm not really going for any major ideas here, but from the compilation of experience (videos, berto's personal commentary, the thread for the mechanics, and the "What we know so far" thread), I've come to give some predictions as to the problems that can come from a few of DmC's new mechanics. None of this is meant for bashing and I would suggest taking this stuff with a grain of salt as I've yet to play the game and I probably won't be able to until a demo is released. This is merely to give a sort of standard as to what to expect and, if I'm correct, talk about problems that NT might need to fix.

Auto Locking
To start off, I'll talk about the auto lock- on system for DmC. Now that manual lock- on is out, of course the control scheme has to change a bit. This wouldn't be a problem for games that lack or have a very basic grappling system. However, DmC's grappling system (and possibly some of its other mechanics) is a little more advanced than most. To compare, it has a longer reach than God of War 3's grab and has more functions than Nero's Devil Bringer, both of these were fairly close- ranged. But now that range is a bigger factor in DmC's grapple than it was in most other games of the same genre, targeting is now a much bigger factor as well.

Without a manual lock- on system, the camera is now fully free and must be manually moved. For most games with an auto lock- on, this is remedied by having the camera set on certain aspects of the enviroment. A famous use of this is when the camera focuses on key areas and gives the player a hint of what to do next. Also, since the characters would attack the closest enemy to them, auto locking made manual locking superfluous by a slight degree.

However, manual locking still had its uses in long range combat. Since there would be times where your opponent would be out of your range of attack and move in places where you can't see. Instead of trying to move your camera around to him, you can simply lock- on to him and your camera would naturally follow him.

So, what does this have to do with DmC? Ultimately, auto locking is dependent on three factors: Camera focus, player position, and target position. For auto locking to work, it has to be completely dependent on player position so that, no matter what happens, you'll always hit your target. This is will probably be the issue with some of DmC's mechanics in relation to its auto locking system. If these problems arise too often, NT might need to set its camera on the target that you are focusing on so that camera focus and target position are independent of the player's control, allowing us to completely focus on just playing the game. For grappling, it would help if the camera focused on the closest key area. Of course, this wouldn't happen during a regular battle, though it would definitly help during a boss battle like Poison.

Evasion
Now, there have been multiple attempts at making a form of evasion that was practical and easy. So far, the best form of evasion (from my experience) has been Bayonetta with a simple evasion button that dodged attacks from (if I recall) multiple directions. So far, though most people didn't have a problem with it, I've seen some faults from the dodging of DmC.

Since dodging is most effective with timing, it would be best for the full evasion maneuver to be made up of invincibility frames so that the player isn't harmed by the attack when the move starts. So far, I've seen players do dodges before the attack hits them. Not that that's bad since most people do that initially, but because there's a risk of a follow- up attack from the same or another enemy. Dodging precisely when the attack hits lessens that risk.

Platforming
This isn't a huge issue, but so far platforming seems to be difficult. Most people wouldn't mind this, however platforming is no longer about going from one platform to the next. Rather it has been about using your mind to figure out a way towards your goal. Ultimately, Platforming has become akin to Puzzle gaming. DmC can make or break this. Most of this goes back to the potential faults of its lock- on system though there's still a few things that NT might need to worry about.

So far, the problem with DmC's platforming is dealing with timing and distance. Most of the people who are having trouble with platforming are having such troubles because Angel Glide didn't reach far enough or they missed the chance to Angel Grapple, etc. Most of this could be remedied with practice, but a good platforming game depends on how well the player can change their enviroment and flow the actions together. So far, the best form of platforming looks alot like parkouring.

Conclusion
Again, this is all going off of what we know so far and from impressions I've gained from various sources. This is more or less a voicing of concerns that hopefully NT will notice and remedy, but because of the positive feedback from major media, I'm kind of worried that they won't. Nothing major to report here, just some stuff that people should be wary of.

I sometimes think Ninja Theory or someone from NT reads these threads and informs Tameen of these issues we speak of and fixes the cons of the game itself. Anyone else feel that?

 

[V's patron]

I sometimes think Ninja Theory or someone from NT reads these threads and informs Tameen of these issues we speak of and fixes the cons of the game itself. Anyone else feel that?

thats what they have interns for.

 

[drfc]

Great idea is very good

 

[Razyel]

Railazel, have you actually played the game? If not, did you ask Berto about this? If so, how did he reply? Cause I think that you'll have to play it to understand it :blush:

 

[Railazel]

Railazel, have you actually played the game? If not, did you ask Berto about this? If so, how did he reply? Cause I think that you'll have to play it to understand it :blush:

I'm not really going for any major ideas here, but from the compilation of experience (videos, berto's personal commentary, the thread for the mechanics, and the "What we know so far" thread). I would suggest taking this stuff with a grain of salt as I've yet to play the game and I probably won't be able to until a demo is released.

But from a technical standpoint, you can just watch the game and see what problems are there, though it takes a very keen sense of sight. I'm able to catch up on a few things but not much. However, how the game "feels" is a different matter because different people have different experiences. For example, berto said that he had trouble with the grappling system, but another person could say that they didn't, so the most objective way of finding these problems is just to watch other players and try to pick up on stuff.

 

[Razyel]

But from a technical standpoint, you can just watch the game and see what problems are there, though it takes a very keen sense of sight. I'm able to catch up on a few things but not much. However, how the game "feels" is a different matter because different people have different experiences. For example, berto said that he had trouble with the grappling system, but another person could say that they didn't, so the most objective way of finding these problems is just to watch other players and try to pick up on stuff.

So we'll just have to wait for the demo, I guess... Anyways good analyzing ^_^

 

[Railazel]

So we'll just have to wait for the demo, I guess... Anyways good analyzing ^_^

Thanks. As a word of advice, I would suggest not playing DMC for a while. A good game to play would be Alter Echo (PS2; I would suggest getting it from Gamefly) since it has a similar control scheme and playstyle as DmC. You can switch modes on the fly, have two types of attacks for each style, and a juggle button, so its quite entertaining.

 

[Agility]

I saw those things. But I am seriously on the edge with video gaming.

Everything and I mean everything feels exactly the same. There's nothing new or entertaining that has me saying "HOLY ****!" in any of the games announced or those that are soon to be released.

I did get the "HOLY CRAP" effect when I was playing the Max Anarchy demo (PSN Jap. Easy to make an account, it's free too). But Max Anarchy felt like Urban Reign if not for the randomness that goes on during the gameplay, I wouldn't have had the HS moments..

Nearly every shooter is either on par or below the Call of Duty series and that's in terms of depth and overall fun.

Every action/adventure tries to use either Uncharted platforming or Prince of Persia platforming.

I'm not bashing or trying to start anything, I just feel that the only thing keeping me from selling my video game consoles are the online games.

DmC I have my eyes on because of the story and the way they are making the game out to be in their trailers. I see the technical stuff, the pauses during combat, the lack of Ninja Gaiden's fluid transaction from enemy to enemy. (which is the best game to learn what Third person combat should be like.)

In my honest opinion I believe that if Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 had their stories together, that would've been the platinum of action games.

No one can point out the flaws in Ninja Gaiden's combat but we can point out flaws in this new game. It's like no one is learning from other's achievements. Apply ninja gaiden's combat to DmC and watch this game soar.

 

[Razyel]

I saw those things. But I am seriously on the edge with video gaming.

Everything and I mean everything feels exactly the same. There's nothing new or entertaining that has me saying "HOLY ****!" in any of the games announced or those that are soon to be released.

I did get the "HOLY CRAP" effect when I was playing the Max Anarchy demo (PSN Jap. Easy to make an account, it's free too). But Max Anarchy felt like Urban Reign if not for the randomness that goes on during the gameplay, I wouldn't have had the HS moments..

Nearly every shooter is either on par or below the Call of Duty series and that's in terms of depth and overall fun.

Every action/adventure tries to use either Uncharted platforming or Prince of Persia platforming.

I'm not bashing or trying to start anything, I just feel that the only thing keeping me from selling my video game consoles are the online games.

DmC I have my eyes on because of the story and the way they are making the game out to be in their trailers. I see the technical stuff, the pauses during combat, the lack of Ninja Gaiden's fluid transaction from enemy to enemy. (which is the best game to learn what Third person combat should be like.)

In my honest opinion I believe that if Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 had their stories together, that would've been the platinum of action games.

No one can point out the flaws in Ninja Gaiden's combat but we can point out flaws in this new game. It's like no one is learning from other's achievements. Apply ninja gaiden's combat to DmC and watch this game soar.

I can find a few flaws in NG combat for you, for example half of the weapons in NGS2 feel unnecessary ( I only used Dragon sword, Enma's Fang, the Scythe and and Falcon's Talons), the camera is sometimes beyond terrible also the games difficulty is..weird it should get harder the more you move on but to me the hardest parts are in the middle of the game, then it gets easier again :O etc. etc...I could find more if I wanted to, but why bother...

edit: Oh yeah, the weapon switch is crap on a stick, basically anything relating to inventory is crap >_<.

Ninja Gaiden is also too difficult for an average gamer, the easiest mode is almost as hard as GOW3 on hard.
Basically: NG-easy = average-game-hard
And why is this a problem? Because everybody should have the right to enjoy the game, not just HC. And why? Because average gamers make the sales . --> no sales, no games.

 

[Agility]

I can find a few flaws in NG combat for you, for example half of the weapons in NGS2 feel unnecessary ( I only used Dragon sword, Enma's Fang, the Scythe and and Falcon's Talons), the camera is sometimes beyond terrible also the games difficulty is..weird it should get harder the more you move on but to me the hardest parts are in the middle of the game, then it gets easier again :O etc. etc...I could find more if I wanted to, but why bother...

edit: Oh yeah, the weapon switch is crap on a stick, basically anything relating to inventory is crap >_<.

Ninja Gaiden is also too difficult for an average gamer, the easiest mode is almost as hard as GOW3 on hard.
Basically: NG-easy = average-game-hard
And why is this a problem? Because everybody should have the right to enjoy the game, not just HC. And why? Because average gamers make the sales . --> no sales, no games.

That's odd that you'd say that about the difficulty. I did not purchase Sigma 2 but I do know that in Ninja Gaiden the enemies do become stronger and more counter based. Whatever difficulty you were playing on must have made the wrong impression. 2 was easier than 1 IMO.

The camera, I never had a problem with. Alot of games people say have camera problems I don't. I don't know what the hell they're doing wrong but it sure isn't apart of my problem.

Also the inventory is managable. The deal is, you are given such a wide range of attacks, you should be okay with the weapon you are using. Ninja Gaiden is fast and inventory scrolling is something you don't want to be doing while fighting waves of speedy monsters. I see where they were going with that.

 

[Agility]

I'd like to add that the unneccessary weapons are awesome.

Only because they give you more options. No weapon is unneccessary if it can cut. I like having a giant list of weapons to play with. Because I can go and replay the game with those weapons.

 

[Vezild]

I think the only thing that really matters and ties all those faults together is the camera. It has to be good, out-of-the-way, and fully manual no matter what. It also has to move fast.
In DmC, we'll probably need a touchy camera or else we'll be dying in a lot of platforming segments. Something like Call of Duty's would be nice. If the camera moves too slowly, though, the game could be broken.
So far, though, that really doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

[Agility]

I think the only thing that really matters and ties all those faults together is the camera. It has to be good, out-of-the-way, and fully manual no matter what. It also has to move fast.
In DmC, we'll probably need a touchy camera or else we'll be dying in a lot of platforming segments. Something like Call of Duty's would be nice. If the camera moves too slowly, though, the game could be broken.
So far, though, that really doesn't seem to be a problem.

Cameras in video games are always trash.

I don't think there's a game where you could see your character 100% of the time.

 

[Vezild]

Cameras in video games are always trash.

I don't think there's a game where you could see your character 100% of the time.

Well some are less trashy than others xD Batman: AC, Dark Souls, and any FPS (well, that's a give-in) are some of my examples of games with good cameras.

 

[Railazel]

Cameras in video games are always trash.

I don't think there's a game where you could see your character 100% of the time.

The only games where you could see your character 100% of the time had fixed cameras, which were annoying.

I saw those things. But I am seriously on the edge with video gaming.

Everything and I mean everything feels exactly the same. There's nothing new or entertaining that has me saying "HOLY ****!" in any of the games announced or those that are soon to be released.

That just means that games are evolving to their maximum in terms of console gaming. Its becoming increasingly rare for games to be original in terms of gameplay because almost every technique has already been found. Ultimately, the only thing to do is to fine tune what others had already done.

DmC I have my eyes on because of the story and the way they are making the game out to be in their trailers. I see the technical stuff, the pauses during combat, the lack of Ninja Gaiden's fluid transaction from enemy to enemy. (which is the best game to learn what Third person combat should be like.)

In my honest opinion I believe that if Ninja Gaiden 1 & 2 had their stories together, that would've been the platinum of action games.

No one can point out the flaws in Ninja Gaiden's combat but we can point out flaws in this new game. It's like no one is learning from other's achievements. Apply ninja gaiden's combat to DmC and watch this game soar.

But then every other game would feel like Ninja Gaiden. Personally, I would prefer DMC to stay DMC and Ninja Gaiden to stay Ninja Gaiden.

DMC was, originally, a sort of "keep your distance" type game as it being Resident Evil- born. Gunplay was supposed to be a major aspect of it so that you can either cause continuous damage to one opponent (E&I) or to multiple (shotgun). Ninja Gaiden, however, is more close- ranged and, because it's a game about a ninja, focused more on quickly killing your enemies in succession.

So far, DmC is focusing on Free- Form combat with little restriction on how you're supposed to fight.

 

[wallenb]

NG is about destroying your enemies as fast as possible because trying to be fancy in NG usually ends up with a dead Ryu
as for DMC, they seemed to all have had a different approach to combat except for 3, 4, and DmC. The first DMC was about survival and smarts. You had to figure out your enemy, which most of the time wasn't too hard, but after you figured it out, you basically could toy with them. DMC2.....um......shoot everything till it dies....and it will. The rest of the DMC games are all about style!

 

[Stylish Nero]

NG is about destroying your enemies as fast as possible because trying to be fancy in NG usually ends up with a dead Ryu
as for DMC, they seemed to all have had a different approach to combat except for 3, 4, and DmC. The first DMC was about survival and smarts. You had to figure out your enemy, which most of the time wasn't too hard, but after you figured it out, you basically could toy with them. DMC2.....um......shoot everything till it dies....and it will. The rest of the DMC games are all about style!

DMC1: Survival, skill, smarts, & thriller
DMC2: Guns a blazing, not much skill
DMC3: Style, some smarts, & a lot of skill
DMC4: Nero(style & not much skill), Dante(style & a lot of skill)
DmC: Style, aerial combat, timing, & basic knowledge.

 

[Agility]

The only games where you could see your character 100% of the time had fixed cameras, which were annoying.



That just means that games are evolving to their maximum in terms of console gaming. Its becoming increasingly rare for games to be original in terms of gameplay because almost every technique has already been found. Ultimately, the only thing to do is to fine tune what others had already done.



But then every other game would feel like Ninja Gaiden. Personally, I would prefer DMC to stay DMC and Ninja Gaiden to stay Ninja Gaiden.

DMC was, originally, a sort of "keep your distance" type game as it being Resident Evil- born. Gunplay was supposed to be a major aspect of it so that you can either cause continuous damage to one opponent (E&I) or to multiple (shotgun). Ninja Gaiden, however, is more close- ranged and, because it's a game about a ninja, focused more on quickly killing your enemies in succession.

So far, DmC is focusing on Free- Form combat with little restriction on how you're supposed to fight.

I guess that's my opinion on what's the highest evolution of combat thus far.

I like my games to be fast fluid and filled with difficulty. I really wanna feel like "Damn I can't seem to beat these guys. What if I try this or this? <insert F Bomb>" It gives me that feeling of "I wanna learn what it takes to beat them." Much like a video game should.

DMC's gameplay is dated. Seriously, everyone else took to DMC and Zelda's gameplay and they sucked all the fun out of it. Right now, the thing they're killing is Call of Duty. I believe those who haven't played enough DMC or Zelda games will buy games with similiar combat and be completely oblivious to the originals (Bayonetta/Darksiders). Also, I haven't really seen anyone use Prince of Persia's combat system but I have seen them use it's platforming/puzzles (Sup Darksiders). God of war's brutality and gameplay has been used. (Sup Dante's Inferno)

I'm sick of this repetition. I couldn't enjoy Bayonetta because I kept saying "Why didn't they just make a new Devil May Cry?" and when I describe it to friends I just said "It's like Devil May Cry." It's seems to me that no one wants to try something new. They wanna play it safe. Games like Syndicate and Bulletstorm tried new things.

I'd also ike to add that Kingdom Hearts's only difference in combat between Ninja Gaiden, is that it has a menu.
Which is why I liked it alot. I'm also looking forward VERY forward to Versus. I love fluid combat, it's just beautiful and entertaining to watch someone play it. You don't have that feeling of "When is it going to be my turn?" You have that feeling of "It's fine. Go ahead and play again."

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Sieghart]

You got my respect because of your gaming perspective.