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Progressive Masculism and Sexism Against Men

Railazel

Well-known Member
An issue that I find quite... under- discussed. I, myself, am a Progressive Masculist. Progressive Masculism can be equated to a "male form of feminism" in that it is a movement that seeks to change gender stereotypes and expectations. To be more detailed, it is a reaction to a growing problem of discrimination against men on the basis of gender and the stereotypes that come from the gender and speaking for the silent cases of problems that are either ignored or men don't speak about. These problems include:

Among other issues.

With that said, I was surprised to see some small evidence of it in video games and anime. Take the Far Cry 3 Rape Scene for example and let's not forget FEAR 2's infamous ending, and type in the words "goosh goosh" on Google then come back to me. The startling thing are the examples of apathy of the gaming community towards sexual objectification (0f both genders) in gaming (which is unsettling). Seemingly, the justification of that is the male character designs are "power fantasies" as opposed to the women being "sexual fantasies". The problem with that is the fact that those characters are "power fantasies". Characters like Kratos for example are considered a "power fantasy" which is horrible considering that Kratos is essentially a hulking mass murderer (I love Kratos as a character but, good lord, I wouldn't want to be the guy). That's also excluding that male power fantasies don't have to be an adult man with a muscular frame or handsome physique. Toph from Avatar is a power fantasy and so is Monkey D. Luffy and Zatch Bell. These are characters that are portrayed as being extremely powerful and have a high sense of morality that we are attracted to and, essentially, want to emulate. However, Luffy is skinny and rather uneducated, Zatch is a little kid (6 years old), and Toph is a blind pre- teen girl. Why aren't these used as examples of power fantasies? Are guys really expected to have a desire to be like Kratos, Dante, or Raiden? Why not other characters like Kutaro?

I would go more into this but writing this down has taken a lot of time (as I am trying to think of what exactly I want to say). I still have things I want to touch on.
 

Rebel Dynasty

Creator of Microcosms
Premium
I can't help but agree; ever since I was in high-school, I've taken a great deal of notice of both gender stereotypes, and of the double-standards that sprout from them. The ones that stick out for me in regards to men are commercials for products like Axe, Tag, Gillette, and some fast-food chains. If they're not perpetuating male stereotypes, their pressuring men into thinking they have to be a specific way, or they won't "get the girl, get the promotion, have lots of friends, be masculine enough, etc." Both genders definitely share in a great deal of b.s. thanks to such ads (half of the ones showing male stereotypes also insult females in the way they portray them while selling their product-Gillette Fusion Pro Glide, I'm looking at you).

I agree with you though; people are pretty quick to notice how unfairly women are treated-that, in itself, is not a bad awareness to have. However, when it's to the exclusion or denial of what challenges men face in our societies today, then it becomes a problem.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member
I can't help but agree; ever since I was in high-school, I've taken a great deal of notice of both gender stereotypes, and of the double-standards that sprout from them. The ones that stick out for me in regards to men are commercials for products like Axe, Tag, Gillette, and some fast-food chains. If they're not perpetuating male stereotypes, their pressuring men into thinking they have to be a specific way, or they won't "get the girl, get the promotion, have lots of friends, be masculine enough, etc." Both genders definitely share in a great deal of b.s. thanks to such ads (half of the ones showing male stereotypes also insult females in the way they portray them while selling their product-Gillette Fusion Pro Glide, I'm looking at you).

I agree with you though; people are pretty quick to notice how unfairly women are treated-that, in itself, is not a bad awareness to have. However, when it's to the exclusion or denial of what challenges men face in our societies today, then it becomes a problem.

It does. It's like we're opening one eye while keeping the other one closed. I'm not even including how sexual stereotypes cause men to be confused about their sexual orientation or how bullying continues to exist because of masculinity- based prejudices formed against boys that are "effeminate". Mix that in with games of "manhood" (like Chicken) that have led to deaths and discrimination against the losers or how the extreme need to contradict gender stereotypes has forced parents to take weird turns with their kids (like sending their boys to ballet classes when they don't want to go) which causes more harm than good for the children. Oh, and I'm not forgetting how kids commercials play the "cool kid gets the girls" card.

Then there's how men who have certain fetishes are treated as "homosexual" when there's evidence that they, themselves, aren't.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
Agreeing 100% with this. The whole attitude towards both genders is messed up. Feminine is not weak and masculine sould not be this image of some muscle guy with loads of women, fighting and going to war. People should just be themselves. Screw societally engineered stereotypes.

Men and women need to speak out against stereotypes about men and women and work together. Problem is, this has been going on for centuries, millennia even, passed on down the years and deeply rooted in the cultural mores. Little things like, open a door for a woman or if a boat is sinking, then it's women and children first to safety. How about just opening the door to a person, regardless or gender? And why should women get special treatment on a sinking ship? Children, I can understand, but not women. I guess it's because women are the ones who carry children, and you only need a small number of men to create the next generation with those women. That might be the reason:cautious:

It is ridiculous in these times that if a man is abused in any way by his wife or other women that the man is then laughed at or thought of as weak. Abuse is abuse, the gender shouldn't matter. That kind of attitude also assumes that women are weak and incapable of hitting or phsically hurting a man. That sort of attitude does neither gender any favours.

Then there are the adverts that basically boil down to men should buy this product to get women. It treats men like their only goal in life is women and sex, and reduces women to sex objects.
Then there are the adverts saying that men should have muscles and only 'manly men' drive good cars and have loads of money, while 'geeky guys' get nothing. It's utter rubbish. These 'go daddy' adverts are just dumb. The one with the stereotypical fat guy with glasses being kissed by a blode woman with huge tits. What kind of message is that to send to men and women? That women are objects and eveything a man does is to get women...:facepalm:
It's also saying that 'geeky guys' or bigger guys won't ever get a lady. Well, what if they don't want a lady? Besides, some of the nicest guys I know are a bit bigger, but it doesn't make them ugly or whatever rubbish these adverts are trying to say. Messages like that are really damaging to men and women.

The most worrying one for me is when it regards rape. Men can be raped, and it does happen. But because it's treated like something only women go through, men get ignored, or they feel too scared to speak out.
I also notice that if a woman rapes a man, either by force or drugs, it is treated like a joke, or people say the man must have enjoyed it because men always want sex; unless it was with an ugly lady. That kind of attitude is so messed up. Rape is rape. Women can do it and men can do it. Again, it assumes that women are weak, and that rape done by women is not as serious. I think it's because the image of women raping a guy usually involves normal sex, and of course all guys love sex, even if it's forced:facepalm: but, male rape can also involve objects used in forcible ways...you know.
What also bothers me is the image that any man could be a potential rapist or molestor and that male sexuality causes violence. What kind of image is that to send men and women?

On the other side, about men raping women, it's usually treated as serious. However, I know of cases where they blamed the woman for wearing clothing that made a guy want to do it, or the girl should not have had a drink or she should not have been in that place. Here's an idea: just don't rape.
Why should the onus be on women to protect themselves and follow all thses rules? It also assumes that men have no self control and are like sex maniac animals.

It brings me on to the stereotype of thinking it's ok to whistle at women or shout obscene things from their cars, or approach women and then call them sluts when the women turns them down. So a woman is a slut for rejecting sex, but also a slut if she has sex. That just doesn't make any sense.

And why should it be ok for men to be promiscuous, but women can't be? And a guy is seen as a hero for losing his virginity, but a woman is a slut for doing the same thing.
Sure, I can see why back in the times with no birth control as there would be unwanted babies everywhere, but in this day and age, either both men and women can have the same sexual freedom, or they both don't have sex until marriage.
Again, another idea that is damaging to both genders.

The attitude towards men and children is also disturbing. If a man kills a child or molests one, it is almost treated like it is expected or part of male behaviour. Yet, if a woman does it, the woman is treated as abnormal, she is treated as being under pressure, stressed, or mentally ill. The most that usually hapens is that she is sent to therapy. A man is usually put in prison for the same crime.

If a male teacher has relations with a pupil, he is sacked and shamed and called a predator of children and sent to prison. But if a female teacher does it, the boy is told he is lucky and it is treated as something to joke about. What sort of a messed up stereotype is that? No wonder men are reluctant to be teachers.
Why don't they treat both cases equally? In both situations, it is an adult abusing their position of power and trust with a minor or impressionable teenager. What sort of 20 something or older would want to be with a teenager anyway?! They're like children to me. Any adult who tries to date teenagers clearly has some problems.

It's like when that 23 year old teacher had a relationship with a 16 year old boy. On the news sites, the comments were filled with messages about him being a lucky boy and guys wishing that they had her as a teacher when they were in school, and some guys saying they'd do her too. Sometimes, men don't help themselves when they feed into that kind of rubbish and perpetuate the stereotype of sex crazed moron.
It's a shame that there is usually a very vocal minority who show that stereotype, while guys who do not approve are not heard.

Then there's the attitude to childcare in general. The stereotype about children being womens work is just as damaging to women as it is to men. They always say 'maternal instinct' as if all women have it and that women should be the ones to stay at home, while the man busts his butt at a job to support them all.
But I know plenty of women who do not fit this stereotype. Internet is full of women stressed out on forums, saying they don't feel maternal instinct, no sudden instant love for their baby and fall into depression because they feel like they have failed as a woman.
Some women feel that all there is to life is to pop out children. That they were put there t be breeding machines with o identity outside of the children and mother role. They have no ambition, no drive to do anything else. It's sad. There's a whole world out there and they are at home, postin on forum about how depressed they are.
On the flip side, there are loads of dads totally ecstatic that they are fathers and wish they could be at home with their children instead of working.

Women these days can work, or still expect their husbands to pay for them while they stay at home. Men should be able to have the same choice if they want to. Why should looking after children be only for women? I know guys who would love to quit the work rat race to be at home all the time with the children. My Dad took a lot of time off to be with me when I was small and I'm glad he did. Children need their dads at home as much as their mums.

Which brings me to fathers, children and divorce. Too many times, I see the children awarded to the mother, even if she is dangerous or unfit. Again, I suppose this springs from the idea that women are best for looking after children.
Then men are also expected to pay the woman and pay for her lifestyle if she does not work, as well as pay for his children. In a lot of cases, the woman keeps the house if she has children, and a lot of the man's assets, even if she has never worked a day in her life. That is not fair at all on the man, expecially if the women has never held a job or contributed financially to the household. So the man doesn't have the family home anymore, has his wages garnished to pay for a women he no longer lives with and has his life messed up.

I guess these days, it's best to be sure about who you're marrying just in case that happens, because it seems that courts are still in favour of women when it comes to keeping the children, and matters of money and property. It really annoys me when women who have never worked get to keep everything the man has worked hard for. Why should she? She is lazy and just used the man for a free ride.
Then again, the idea of women should be at home with the children and not have a job has unfortunately gone a long way to helping women take as much as they can from divorces, especially if they involve children.

Which brings me on to jobs. Even now, it is seen as strange for a man to be involved in fashion design, stage makeup, or some kind of creative job. That stereotype of it being woman's work needs to go because it is damaging to both sides. Some fo the most famous fashion deisgners are men and the same goes for successful chefs. It doesn't make them gay or any of that rubbish...and why should gay be a bad thing anyway? Some guys are gay, get over it. Being gay doesn't make them less of a man or a person or whatever.

That brings me on to sexuality. Why is it men being homosexual is bad, but lesbian women are seen as hot and that every man wants to be involved in a lesbian threesome? :facepalm: The idea of female sexuality being non threatning needs to stop, while the idea of two men being together seen as disgusting also needs to stop. It's like it's also saying that men are ugly and women aren't.

And why should a guy be bullied for liking other men? This pervasive image of what it means to be masculine needs to stop. Not every guy likes women, some guys don't want to be with men or women, yet they're bullied, sometimes to the point of suicide. Or if a guy wears pink, he is, or could be, gay. Just because pink is the stereotypically female colour, it is seen as gay. Why? That is the dumbest thing ever. So feminine pink is bad but masculine blue is ok:facepalm:
There are countries, usually extremely religious ones, that preach weird stuff about gay men eating their partner's faeces and other weird stuff. How the heck are they allowed to get away with such slander? And the audiences believes it. Then again, these places are usually uneducated and their only source of information is their place of worship. Not surprising really.

Got to say though, the image of lesbian women isn't all too great either. Still being called dykes, the image of lesbians wanting to be, or look like, men; the idea that male abuse led to women being lesbian, or that feminine looking lesbians just haven't met the right guy yet.:facepalm: So it could be the fault of men that women are lesbian? That is so stupid. Some women just like women and that's that. Then there are countries that use 'corrective' gang rape to rape women into not being a lesbian anymore. Then again, these are also the places where it is said that men raping a baby cures aids. Totally sick and messed up.

Both men and women have a long way to go before equality happens. Corporations like using stereotypes to sell products, and whether we like it or not, stereotypes about both genders are deeply ingrained into the subconsciouness of society and enforced at every level, such as in places of education and worship.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member

It's good to see people who are passionate about this because this issue is rather personal for me.

When I was looking for a job and I wasn't having much luck, my mother thought it was because I was being too lazy with my search. So she started talking to me about the importance of getting a job and she told me that no woman is going to marry a man who doesn't work or that I, as a man, have to be the breadwinner. This was odd to me because my mother seemingly had forgotten that, for most of my life, she was the only source of income in the house (when dad wasn't around) and had to do her part to help keep our state of living (when dad was around). I got her point but... her words didn't match up with my experience. The worst part about it though was that I was expected to be the breadwinner of the house. What if my wife makes more money than me? How I am supposed to feel about that? Am I less of a man if I decide to stay in the house and let her make the money?

Then there's the fact that I'm Trans- Oriented. According to the public, I'm gay, yet I've never been attracted to a man in my life. I've experienced, like some (if not most) TO men, a good amount of sexual confusion because, according to the masses, "a girl with a penis = a guy, therefore I am attracted to a guy and thus gay". Not to say that they aren't wrong, transexual women are all men genetically. However, TOs are attracted to TGs for a number reasons- them being men is not one of them. In fact, 90% of TO men are heterosexual- the other ten percent think of themselves as a different kind of gay. It's just rather strange that I look at women like these and I'm called gay for it.

The last and most personal reason is my faith. In Christianity, men are taught to be the leaders because that's God's role for us. We are told that God made us leaders so we need to act like it and follow a specific rubric in behavior to portray that image of "manhood" that God created for us. The problem with that is that our place in leadership was a punishment and that, initially, men and women were created equal and that our place above women is a fault that needs to be corrected, not something that needs to be sustained. Men's place in society isn't a gift but a curse and we have been deceived into thinking otherwise. It should be the point of man to lower himself so that he is equal with his wife once again as it is written: "Submit to each other in reverence of Christ".
 

Railazel

Well-known Member

It's good to see people who are passionate about this because this issue is rather personal for me.

When I was looking for a job and I wasn't having much luck, my mother thought it was because I was being too lazy with my search. So she started talking to me about the importance of getting a job and she told me that no woman is going to marry a man who doesn't work or that I, as a man, have to be the breadwinner. This was odd to me because my mother seemingly had forgotten that, for most of my life, she was the only source of income in the house (when dad wasn't around) and had to do her part to help keep our state of living (when dad was around). I got her point but... her words didn't match up with my experience. The worst part about it though was that I was expected to be the breadwinner of the house. What if my wife makes more money than me? How I am supposed to feel about that? Am I less of a man if I decide to stay in the house and let her make the money?

Then there's the fact that I'm Trans- Oriented. According to the public, I'm gay, yet I've never been attracted to a man in my life. I've experienced, like some (if not most) TO men, a good amount of sexual confusion because, according to the masses, "a girl with a penis = a guy, therefore I am attracted to a guy and thus gay". Not to say that they aren't wrong, transexual women are all men genetically. However, TOs are attracted to TGs for a number reasons- them being men is not one of them. In fact, 90% of TO men are heterosexual- the other ten percent think of themselves as a different kind of gay. It's just rather strange that I look at women like these and I'm called gay for it.

The last and most personal reason is my faith. In Christianity, men are taught to be the leaders because that's God's role for us. We are told that God made us leaders so we need to act like it and follow a specific rubric in behavior to portray that image of "manhood" that God created for us. The problem with that is that our place in leadership was a punishment and that, initially, men and women were created equal and that our place above women is a fault that needs to be corrected, not something that needs to be sustained. Men's place in society isn't a gift but a curse and we have been deceived into thinking otherwise. It should be the point of man to lower himself so that he is equal with his wife once again as it is written: "Submit to each other in reverence of Christ".
 

ROCKMAN X

Keyser Söze
After years and years of experience in life i've realized that both men&women are equally sexist to themselves,both men&women use cultural stereotypes to judge each others and also try to rub it off like its some sort of cultural norm.

To be honest i'm really freaking sick of typical gender roles imposed by the society,its clearly evident that both men&women are equal in almost everyway except for some differences in physiology so saying that they should abide to this silly gender standard is bullshit.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
The worst part about it though was that I was expected to be the breadwinner of the house. What if my wife makes more money than me? How I am supposed to feel about that? Am I less of a man if I decide to stay in the house and let her make the money?
That's why ideas about gender roles need to change. It shouldn't be seen as a bad thing if men want to be home looking after their children. So long as the bills are paid, it shouldn't matter who is out there working for the money.
Why should the world still be stuck with this mindset of women should stay at home while men bust their butts doing a job they probably hate.
Women should tell their sons to never take a job they hate just for money, and tell their sons to never support a freeloading parasite wife in case she decides to divorce and take everything. Quite a few of my friends' mothers told their sons that; to look for women who will be just as successful and contribute fairly to the household income.

We've moved away from the times where women couldn't work; and now we need to move away from men marrying women of lower intelligence and job prospects because it doesn't work out too well for either side, especially in the event of a divorce. Otherwise what's left is women stuck at home, putting up with a cheating or abusive husband because she doesn't have the money to leave him. Or, on the other side, there are men taken for a financial ride during a divorce and see the fruits of their hard labour taken by a lazy parasite.

Both of my parents worked (my mum because she wanted to) and my dad took time off to look after me (again, because he wanted to). He did nearly all the house work, cooking, kept up with his business work on the side, and then my mum would help with house work when she came back home in the evenings. Sometimes my mum earned a lot more than my dad and sometimes it was the opposite. But he never felt less of a man, he liked that she was able to contribute, and that we could have a good life because of that. That's how it was, and my dad was never looked down on for being home with me. I'd say he did a better job than a lot of these women who complain about how much they hate children, use ready meals and let the house and themselves become a dump.

Then there's the fact that I'm Trans- Oriented. According to the public, I'm gay, yet I've never been attracted to a man in my life. I've experienced, like some (if not most) TO men, a good amount of sexual confusion because, according to the masses, "a girl with a penis = a guy, therefore I am attracted to a guy and thus gay". Not to say that they aren't wrong, transexual women are all men genetically. However, TOs are attracted to TGs for a number reasons- them being men is not one of them. In fact, 90% of TO men are heterosexual- the other ten percent think of themselves as a different kind of gay. It's just rather strange that I look at women like these and I'm called gay for it.
That's the problem with labels. Humans like to put things in neat little boxes with labels because anything else is confusing and weird. People should like who they like, well, unless it's children or animals, without feeling confused or pinned to a label. Human sexuality isn't as simple as gay or straight and it'stime society came to terms with that.

I guess it can be confusing when people see women like those you posted in the link and then find out they are biologically male. I guess it's because they would start to question their own sexuality. Society is still trying to come to grips with things like that. But it's not as simple as people try to make it. Same goes for physical gender.
Some people just don't feel that their bodies match what's going on in their heads and want to change it. Whether it's dressing like the gender they think they should be, changing their bodies a little, or going for full gender reassignment surgery.
Then there are some guys who just like to wear ladies clothes and makeup occasionally, but have no desire to have reassignment surgery or live life as a woman. It's weird though that a woman can wear men style clothing, yet most of the time she is not told that she wants to be a man. But a man who wears womans clothing is called gay or confused.

The problem is, ideas of gender and sexuality are enforced right at birth from the biological sex that the child is. Stereotypically, they're raised with pink, cooking and dolls if they're a girl, and blue and toy soliders if they are boys; and usually there's a very confusing journey out of that if a person feels that they are in the wrong gender body, or if their sexuality if different to what is expected of them.

I tend to think sexuality and gender binary is partly learned behaviour and partly innate. For example, homosexuality was widely practiced in parts of the ancient world, but these days, it is taught as being a bad thing. So, there must be some natural component to feeling attraction to the same gender, but society teaches that it is wrong.
So, if we weren't taught through movies and other cultural phenomenon that hetreosexuality and rigid gender binary is the default and only setting for human sexuality, then would there be more homosexuals, asexuals or transsexuals?


The last and most personal reason is my faith. In Christianity, men are taught to be the leaders because that's God's role for us. We are told that God made us leaders so we need to act like it and follow a specific rubric in behavior to portray that image of "manhood" that God created for us. The problem with that is that our place in leadership was a punishment and that, initially, men and women were created equal and that our place above women is a fault that needs to be corrected, not something that needs to be sustained. Men's place in society isn't a gift but a curse and we have been deceived into thinking otherwise. It should be the point of man to lower himself so that he is equal with his wife once again as it is written: "Submit to each other in reverence of Christ".
It's up to you to reconcile your faith with how you live your life.
True, religious teachings don't help when they say men should always be the leader, that and the fact that religions are the foundation for the modern image of how men and women should be, along with rules about crime and punishment and morality.
It puts a lot of stress on men, and a lot of pressure to earn money for the family; while the woman is placed in what is viewed as a lesser positon of being at home with the children and submitting to her husband. It's incompatible with most modern societies, and outmoded when one takes in to consideration that there are many women who are head of the houseold and main earner, whether through divorce, death or serious injury of the husband.

It also doesn't help that people twist religions to suit their own ideas of what men and women should be. Men don't own women, and I don't know why there are churches that still preach this. It's further twisting teachings that have already been tampered with by men over the centuries to suit their political needs (I'm looking at you Henry VIII, Martin Luthar, and James VI and I :tongue:).
Teaching that women are property is messed up. It gives an excuse for a minority of men to abuse women, when that was not what was taught in the bible. Submission doesn't mean treat a woman like a doormat and slave. That wasn't what was meant by submitting to a husband as he does to christ and the church. :facepalm:
Submission is such an ugly word in this day and age with all the connotations of being a weak doormat fit only to be owned. Like you say, both people should come together and worship together, none of this higher than the other rubbish.
 

V

Oldschool DMC fan
Kratos bored me. It was the Greek mythology in a game and the other characters I enjoyed, the fact he killed, like, everybody was both darkly amusing and disappointing. But him, a power fantasy? He's so boring as a character. But then I guess a lot of those power fantasies are. He's just the player avatar, he might as well be Gordon Freeman, only I thought Gordon Freeman was slightly more interesting.

So why are you attracted to transwomen particularly? The trans community itself tends to avoid pre-op transfetishists/TOs like the plague; I figure there's just as much objectification going on among TOs of pre-op transwomen. I wouldn't consider it some legitimate sexuality so much as a fetish, frankly. The goal of many transwomen is to transition and become women, not remain "chicks with dix" to use a phrase. Which leads me to suppose that you are simply attracted to men who dress and look like women, not transwomen per se, because those tend to get their penises removed and are women, to all intents and purposes, bar being able to bear children.

a good amount of sexual confusion because, according to the masses, "a girl with a penis = a guy, therefore I am attracted to a guy and thus gay".
what is a girl, then? makeup? clothes? long hair? because if you're going to dispense with the biological identifiers AND the social ones, you might as well just call a person a person, not a girl or a boy and call yourself attracted to a certain... 'aesthetic'.
 
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Loopy

Devil hunter in training
Can't I just say that both genders need to be tough enough to deal with spiders and be done with it?
and insects:tongue: I'm the one scooping up spiders in my house because the guys and Mim can't stand them. Fair enough, so long as they call me to get it out and don't kill it first.

Changing a lightbulb and general household DIY are also good skills for both to have.
 

DreadnoughtDT

God of Hyperdeath
Premium
Supporter 2014
I've noticed that such a thing tends to extend to online gaming as well. If you're a guy that plays as a female character, from what I've seen you either get slightly disturbed comments, or most people consider it completely passable. If you're a girl playing as a guy, everyone flips the F*CK out, calling them things like trannies and whores and stuff like that.

A very minor double standard, but it bugs the **** out of me. I wish everyone could just see each other as, at the very least, androgynous when they're online. But gender stereotypes somehow go even that far. Why, I was playing Fragment a while back (unfortunately the servers are no longer online) and I liked playing as a female Flick Reaper because she looked pretty damn cool, but when my then girlfriend (she's an ex of mine now, but we're still friends) made a male Steam Gunner to complement my character, everyone flipped out at her. I had to explain to several people that it's no big deal. :/

Which brings me to the topic of sexuality and discrimination against such things. I am a male, who identifies male, who is omnisexual, though in a very specific way. Human males, shemales, herms, whatever don't really turn me on, but I like anthropomorphic ones. So being a male furry, this creates no end to the stereotypical comments of "Oh lol it's a furfag, hide your children."... This bugs me, very much so. I simply decided long ago that if you are sentient and are able to give consent, I don't care what you look like, to a point. You could be a wolf, a dragon, a human, with any set of genitals you damn well please and I will find at least ONE thing I like about you. For example one of my characters, Toxia, is a slime creature wearing a jackal-shaped rubber suit, and I would have her no other way.

...I realize I've mostly been talking about women though, but I guess I found a nice place to finally get my opinions out. This isn't everything I wanted to say because I'm pressed for time at the moment, but I'd love to get into this discussion. Also, I apologize, but I did only skim through some of the longer posts. Forgive me if I missed anything important.
 

V

Oldschool DMC fan
"Homophobia: the fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women".

If you've wondered why even the more progressive het men will often begin explaining their stance on gays as, "I'm not against gays, but if one tries to touch me..." (yawn) - a lot of men appear to have a fear of being raped by a man that women have to live with every single day. Do I feel sorry for men in that respect? Hell no. Women endure that threat all the time. Men should appreciate that rape sucks and nobody should be subjected to the fear of it, but a good way of making men understand it is to make them aware that they too are sexual objects, not above being objectified. Because there's no way people are gonna stop viewing each other as sexual any time soon.

---

The religious explanations are ridiculous to me but let's just say it made sense in caveman times for women, who made milk, to stay with newborn kids and for men to go out and get the food. If the women did, the men wouldn't be able to feed the newborn baby, and those babies do need feeding. Men being slightly bigger on average and slightly better designed for running and doing physical things would have been slightly better suited to chasing animals, chopping firewood, and all that stuff. Even simple-minded cave people would have figured this out, and in times of survival it would have just been a matter of everyone doing the job they were best suited for so they didn't all die. Hence women looked after the small ones, men went out and did hunting and defending because they couldn't look after the small ones fully. Over time people invented religion and decided that whatever god decreed this to be some kinda natural or godly law or whatever. When it just sprang from logic relevant at the time. It's not quite so relevant anymore.

If anything, women have (and always have had) more influence over people than men because they're mothers and everyone's got a mother. Your mother is the closest person to you from the minute you're conceived and get born, and usually from then on until you're old enough to be away from her. That's a lot of time for her to influence the next generation, and most primitive societies were matriarchal anyway. I figure it was only when human warfare became more advanced that patriarchal societies emerged and started worshipping men and warriors as their preservers and viewing them as superior and more important than women. The general decline of polytheism (inc goddesses) and the rise of monotheism (particularly the big 3) with a jealous, vindictive father-like god figure seems to go hand in hand with nations that became organized for war and generally warlike. They stopped worshipping women, nature and fertility and started idolizing men, turning the female largely into a symbol of shame, seduction and deceit. Makes sense from the perspective of keeping women "in their place" as breeders and property, and not allowing them to be anything more, doesn't it? Those religions themselves place an emphasis on submission to a single personality (God) and law, for both male and female, anyway, and the restriction of nature and the self rather than the embracing of it, so you're correct in the sense both men and women are supposed to supplicate themselves. But generally the Bible, Torah and Koran are full of examples and law of women not being equal, so I'm not sure where you get the idea they were supposed to be equal from the get-go. Those religions go out of their way to describe how man was "first", that woman is created to amuse the man, that she is property, that she is inherently evil and deceitful. Which is why those faiths ain't to my taste. If you're gonna dispense with those ideas, you might as well dispense with the entire holy books because they're full of that.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member
Kratos bored me. It was the Greek mythology in a game and the other characters I enjoyed, the fact he killed, like, everybody was both darkly amusing and disappointing. But him, a power fantasy? He's so boring as a character. But then I guess a lot of those power fantasies are. He's just the player avatar, he might as well be Gordon Freeman, only I thought Gordon Freeman was slightly more interesting.

I thought he was a tragic character, which was nice, but he's a horrible power fantasy.

So why are you attracted to transwomen particularly?

I'm not attracted to them particularly. My attraction to them is just an extension of me being heterosexual.

The trans community itself tends to avoid pre-op transfetishists/TOs like the plague;

That's not always the case. Some TGs completely welcome pre- op lovers.

I figure there's just as much objectification going on among TOs of pre-op transwomen.

Well, most TOs are exposed to TGs through erotic material. While media exposure of TGs has been improving, it is still not at that point where TGs can be viewed in a positive light and men can openly express their attraction to them. So porn, xxx magazines, etc., are generally the major means of which TOs discover their attraction to TGs. This can inevitably lead to TGs being seen as sexual objects to fetishists.

I wouldn't consider it some legitimate sexuality so much as a fetish, frankly.

Well then, I would have to say that that isn't true. Trans- Orientation isn't a standalone sexuality but it isn't a fetish either. Like me, some guys see it as part of their heterosexuality, others see it as part of their homosexuality or bisexuality, and others are more attracted to TGs more than they are to women or men. The reasons for all this vary from man to man but, regardless, a lot of us would love to date and even marry these women. We fall in love with them and want to spend the rest of our days with them. So to boil it down to a fetish is rather insulting.

The goal of many transwomen is to transition and become women, not remain "chicks with dix" to use a phrase.

Actually, some of them don't mind keeping their penises, either for personal or financial reasons.

Which leads me to suppose that you are simply attracted to men who dress and look like women.

Men who dress and look like women? All TGs are "men who dress and look like women" to apply a very basic definition to the term. Now, if you're talking about "men who dress like women", those are called crossdressers and I am not attracted to those guys.

not transwomen per se, because those tend to get their penises removed and are women, to all intents and purposes, bar being able to bear children.

Again, not all TGs remove them.

what is a girl, then?

That's a complicated question. The term "girl" doesn't have a strict definition and is rather loose in its application, so I would rather hold my tongue on such an issue.

"Homophobia: the fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women".

If you've wondered why even the more progressive het men will often begin explaining their stance on gays as, "I'm not against gays, but if one tries to touch me..." (yawn) - a lot of men appear to have a fear of being raped by a man that women have to live with every single day. Do I feel sorry for men in that respect? Hell no. Women endure that threat all the time. Men should appreciate that rape sucks and nobody should be subjected to the fear of it, but a good way of making men understand it is to make them aware that they too are sexual objects, not above being objectified. Because there's no way people are gonna stop viewing each other as sexual any time soon.

I'm rather flattered when a gay man hits on me. Gives me an ego boost!

The religious explanations are ridiculous to me but let's just say it made sense in caveman times for women, who made milk, to stay with newborn kids and for men to go out and get the food.

It wouldn't have made sense in the "caveman times" either. Men and Women shared equally in their roles. When it was time to hunt, either gender did it. The only time it was specifically women doing a job was when the child needed to be fed.

" Over time people invented religion and decided that whatever god decreed this to be some kinda natural or godly law or whatever. When it just sprang from logic relevant at the time. It's not quite so relevant anymore.

That's not true either. Religion never decreed that "men were stronger than women because god said so" when polytheistic religions with Divine Parents or Warriors Gods and Goddesses made it a point that neither gender was better than the other.

If anything, women have (and always have had) more influence over people than men because they're mothers and everyone's got a mother. Your mother is the closest person to you from the minute you're conceived and get born, and usually from then on until you're old enough to be away from her. That's a lot of time for her to influence the next generation, and most primitive societies were matriarchal anyway.

Actually, the role of the mother isn't so big that she is the biggest influence of your life but is only so when kids don't have fathers to raise them. When both parents are present, they share equally in their influence.

That's a lot of time for her to influence the next generation, and most primitive societies were matriarchal anyway.

There's no evidence that ancient societies were ever matriarchal but a majority of them were at least egalitarian.

I figure it was only when human warfare became more advanced that patriarchal societies emerged and started worshipping men and warriors as their preservers and viewing them as superior and more important than women.

Nope, human warfare was just as much of effect of a change in society as was religion and, even so, religions rarely showed men to be superior to women in a substantial way.

The general decline of polytheism (inc goddesses) and the rise of monotheism (particularly the big 3) with a jealous, vindictive father-like god figure seems to go hand in hand with nations that became organized for war and generally warlike.

That's not true either. Monotheism came, from what we know, as a reaction to Polytheism. It's a logical step, no? Why praise many gods when you can have only one? Even in Polytheistic societies, some parts of the culture would praise only one or few select gods, essentially making the rest of the pantheon redundant. Also, the only connection that religions have with a nation's change is how those changes affect people's interpretation of the religion.

They stopped worshipping women, nature and fertility and started idolizing men, turning the female largely into a symbol of shame, seduction and deceit.

That's also not true. In a lot of religions, the men screw up just as much as women do and polytheistic religions praise them both equally.

Makes sense from the perspective of keeping women "in their place" as breeders and property, and not allowing them to be anything more, doesn't it?

Not really. Women had roles of leadership in their societies, just not often. Them being "property" isn't the same as them being "objects". Women were still beings deserving of honor and appraisal. Their placement in society was more legal than it was social. Women still had influence in their families, providing wisdom to those around them, and were symbols of strength, beauty, and humility.

Those religions themselves place an emphasis on submission to a single personality (God) and law, for both male and female, anyway, and the restriction of nature and the self rather than the embracing of it, so you're correct in the sense both men and women are supposed to supplicate themselves. But generally the Bible, Torah and Koran are full of examples and law of women not being equal, so I'm not sure where you get the idea they were supposed to be equal from the get-go. Those religions go out of their way to describe how man was "first", that woman is created to amuse the man, that she is property, that she is inherently evil and deceitful. Which is why those faiths ain't to my taste. If you're gonna dispense with those ideas, you might as well dispense with the entire holy books because they're full of that.

Genesis 1:27 says that men and women were created in the image of God. Note how it doesn't say that men were created first then women second neither does it say that women are inferior to men. We are equal images of God.

Genesis 1:28- 30 says that humanity will rule over the earth. Note how it doesn't say that any of the genders will rule over it specifically or over one another.

Genesis 2:22 notice that Eve was made after the animals. So is she inferior to the animals, too? No! She was superior to them. Adam couldn't take care of their garden by himself, making Eve a necessity.

Genesis 3:6 notice how Eve ate the fruit and was completely fine. Then Adam eats the fruit and everything goes downhill. If it was Eve who was to blame, she would've been the one to have had her eyes open first and thus felt shame first but nothing happened until Adam ate the fruit, basically putting the blame on Adam.

Genesis 3:14, 16, and 17 shows that the Serpent and Adam were blamed for their role in the Fall, but Eve gets a pass is just told that it'll hurt when she gets pregnant. How is that a punishment though? Women were created before Eve so, basically, up until that point all their childbirths were painless? I don't think so. Eve was designed like every other woman (supposedly) so her childbirths would be painful regardless if God had to say anything about it. Then the rest of her "punishment" doesn't do much for her either, she was already designed to be Adam's helper, so she was going to listen to whatever he needed her to do anyway, and she was already his wife so her desire for him has already been established. Basically, the Serpent and Adam are basically noted as the main offenders in this while Eve is sort of just told to do what she is already going to do.

Proverbs 31:31 tells us to honor women for the things they do.

Ephesians 5:21 tells husbands to submit to their wives as much as they submit to them.

Ephesians 5:28 tells husbands to love their wives as much as they do their own body.

If you want to focus on the sexist laws, then you have to focus on the rest too and, trust me, no one's living by those standards, so God pretty much screwed us all over. On the other hand, some of those "sexist" laws do apply to both men and women equally and some are rather specific.

For example, Deuteronomy 25:11-12 says that a woman would get her hand cut off if she grabbed another man's balls while her husband is fighting that man. That's awfully specific. Is that the first thing Hebrew women think of doing when they see their husbands in trouble? What happens if she punches the guy in the balls? Will that still count? Is it okay if her husband wasn't in trouble? What if she just grabs a stranger's balls because of some grudge or whatever? And how exactly did the first time a woman did this go? Do it go like this:

Wife: "Oh no! He's got my husband in a choke hold! What should I do!? Umm... Umm... I know! I'll grab his balls!"

Guy: "Yeow! Hey that's not fair! Those are my sensitive parts!"

Wife: "Well let go of my husband!"

God: "Dang, I feel sorry for the guy with his ball's getting grabbed. Yo, Moses, cut that b*tch's hand off, will ya."

Moses: "Cut off her hand!"

Crowd: "YEEAAAH!"

Wife: "Wait what!?"

You see how ridiculous some of these rules are? Let's find another one!

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is a rather horrible law for both genders. Why both? Because what happens if its female- on- male rape? Does the man marry his rapist and she pay his father some money? No? Oh wait, can't she just claim she was "raped" and simply force the man into paying her father money and marrying her? Probably. So God basically did this:

God: "Oh snap, what's going in this little corner? Guy getting some action? Oh crap, he's raping her! Oh snap! How do I handle this situation!? Oh, I know! Yo, chick! You have to marry the guy! Sure, he's your rapist but you're basically damaged goods at this point. Hope you guys live a happy life! Oh snap, what's going in this corner? Oh crap, is that chick raping the guy? Oh no, you aren't? He's raping you! Oh, I'll totally believe that! Now you guys have to get married! Hope you guys live wonderfully!"

The interesting thing about this law is that it's not even talking about rape. It's when a guy gets a girl hot and bothered and they go to town and some people find them (kind of like when your parents catch you in the middle of doing it with your girl). I have know idea why they keep using the word "rape" when all it does is cause confusion.

Still, the point I want to make is that the laws are extremely strict and ridiculous and to judge the entire Bible based on them is rather shallow considering that there are parts of the Bible that suggest that those laws aren't all that important or necessary for your salvation. Basically, God doesn't care about you shaving your head. He really doesn't.
 

Railazel

Well-known Member
Kratos bored me. It was the Greek mythology in a game and the other characters I enjoyed, the fact he killed, like, everybody was both darkly amusing and disappointing. But him, a power fantasy? He's so boring as a character. But then I guess a lot of those power fantasies are. He's just the player avatar, he might as well be Gordon Freeman, only I thought Gordon Freeman was slightly more interesting.

I thought he was a tragic character, which was nice, but he's a horrible power fantasy.

So why are you attracted to transwomen particularly?

I'm not attracted to them particularly. My attraction to them is just an extension of me being heterosexual.

The trans community itself tends to avoid pre-op transfetishists/TOs like the plague;

That's not always the case. Some TGs completely welcome pre- op lovers.

I figure there's just as much objectification going on among TOs of pre-op transwomen.

Well, most TOs are exposed to TGs through erotic material. While media exposure of TGs has been improving, it is still not at that point where TGs can be viewed in a positive light and men can openly express their attraction to them. So porn, xxx magazines, etc., are generally the major means of which TOs discover their attraction to TGs. This can inevitably lead to TGs being seen as sexual objects to fetishists.

I wouldn't consider it some legitimate sexuality so much as a fetish, frankly.

Well then, I would have to say that that isn't true. Trans- Orientation isn't a standalone sexuality but it isn't a fetish either. Like me, some guys see it as part of their heterosexuality, others see it as part of their homosexuality or bisexuality, and others are more attracted to TGs more than they are to women or men. The reasons for all this vary from man to man but, regardless, a lot of us would love to date and even marry these women. We fall in love with them and want to spend the rest of our days with them. So to boil it down to a fetish is rather insulting.

The goal of many transwomen is to transition and become women, not remain "chicks with dix" to use a phrase.

Actually, some of them don't mind keeping their penises, either for personal or financial reasons.

Which leads me to suppose that you are simply attracted to men who dress and look like women.

Men who dress and look like women? All TGs are "men who dress and look like women" to apply a very basic definition to the term. Now, if you're talking about "men who dress like women", those are called crossdressers and I am not attracted to those guys.

not transwomen per se, because those tend to get their penises removed and are women, to all intents and purposes, bar being able to bear children.

Again, not all TGs remove them.

what is a girl, then?

That's a complicated question. The term "girl" doesn't have a strict definition and is rather loose in its application, so I would rather hold my tongue on such an issue.

"Homophobia: the fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women".

If you've wondered why even the more progressive het men will often begin explaining their stance on gays as, "I'm not against gays, but if one tries to touch me..." (yawn) - a lot of men appear to have a fear of being raped by a man that women have to live with every single day. Do I feel sorry for men in that respect? Hell no. Women endure that threat all the time. Men should appreciate that rape sucks and nobody should be subjected to the fear of it, but a good way of making men understand it is to make them aware that they too are sexual objects, not above being objectified. Because there's no way people are gonna stop viewing each other as sexual any time soon.

I'm rather flattered when a gay man hits on me. Gives me an ego boost!

The religious explanations are ridiculous to me but let's just say it made sense in caveman times for women, who made milk, to stay with newborn kids and for men to go out and get the food.

It wouldn't have made sense in the "caveman times" either. Men and Women shared equally in their roles. When it was time to hunt, either gender did it. The only time it was specifically women doing a job was when the child needed to be fed.

" Over time people invented religion and decided that whatever god decreed this to be some kinda natural or godly law or whatever. When it just sprang from logic relevant at the time. It's not quite so relevant anymore.

That's not true either. Religion never decreed that "men were stronger than women because god said so" when polytheistic religions with Divine Parents or Warriors Gods and Goddesses made it a point that neither gender was better than the other.

If anything, women have (and always have had) more influence over people than men because they're mothers and everyone's got a mother. Your mother is the closest person to you from the minute you're conceived and get born, and usually from then on until you're old enough to be away from her. That's a lot of time for her to influence the next generation, and most primitive societies were matriarchal anyway.

Actually, the role of the mother isn't so big that she is the biggest influence of your life but is only so when kids don't have fathers to raise them. When both parents are present, they share equally in their influence.

That's a lot of time for her to influence the next generation, and most primitive societies were matriarchal anyway.

There's no evidence that ancient societies were ever matriarchal but a majority of them were at least egalitarian.

I figure it was only when human warfare became more advanced that patriarchal societies emerged and started worshipping men and warriors as their preservers and viewing them as superior and more important than women.

Nope, human warfare was just as much of effect of a change in society as was religion and, even so, religions rarely showed men to be superior to women in a substantial way.

The general decline of polytheism (inc goddesses) and the rise of monotheism (particularly the big 3) with a jealous, vindictive father-like god figure seems to go hand in hand with nations that became organized for war and generally warlike.

That's not true either. Monotheism came, from what we know, as a reaction to Polytheism. It's a logical step, no? Why praise many gods when you can have only one? Even in Polytheistic societies, some parts of the culture would praise only one or few select gods, essentially making the rest of the pantheon redundant. Also, the only connection that religions have with a nation's change is how those changes affect people's interpretation of the religion.

They stopped worshipping women, nature and fertility and started idolizing men, turning the female largely into a symbol of shame, seduction and deceit.

That's also not true. In a lot of religions, the men screw up just as much as women do and polytheistic religions praise them both equally.

Makes sense from the perspective of keeping women "in their place" as breeders and property, and not allowing them to be anything more, doesn't it?

Not really. Women had roles of leadership in their societies, just not often. Them being "property" isn't the same as them being "objects". Women were still beings deserving of honor and appraisal. Their placement in society was more legal than it was social. Women still had influence in their families, providing wisdom to those around them, and were symbols of strength, beauty, and humility.

Those religions themselves place an emphasis on submission to a single personality (God) and law, for both male and female, anyway, and the restriction of nature and the self rather than the embracing of it, so you're correct in the sense both men and women are supposed to supplicate themselves. But generally the Bible, Torah and Koran are full of examples and law of women not being equal, so I'm not sure where you get the idea they were supposed to be equal from the get-go. Those religions go out of their way to describe how man was "first", that woman is created to amuse the man, that she is property, that she is inherently evil and deceitful. Which is why those faiths ain't to my taste. If you're gonna dispense with those ideas, you might as well dispense with the entire holy books because they're full of that.

Genesis 1:27 says that men and women were created in the image of God. Note how it doesn't say that men were created first then women second neither does it say that women are inferior to men. We are equal images of God.

Genesis 1:28- 30 says that humanity will rule over the earth. Note how it doesn't say that any of the genders will rule over it specifically or over one another.

Genesis 2:22 notice that Eve was made after the animals. So is she inferior to the animals, too? No! She was superior to them. Adam couldn't take care of their garden by himself, making Eve a necessity.

Genesis 3:6 notice how Eve ate the fruit and was completely fine. Then Adam eats the fruit and everything goes downhill. If it was Eve who was to blame, she would've been the one to have had her eyes open first and thus felt shame first but nothing happened until Adam ate the fruit, basically putting the blame on Adam.

Genesis 3:14, 16, and 17 shows that the Serpent and Adam were blamed for their role in the Fall, but Eve gets a pass is just told that it'll hurt when she gets pregnant. How is that a punishment though? Women were created before Eve so, basically, up until that point all their childbirths were painless? I don't think so. Eve was designed like every other woman (supposedly) so her childbirths would be painful regardless if God had to say anything about it. Then the rest of her "punishment" doesn't do much for her either, she was already designed to be Adam's helper, so she was going to listen to whatever he needed her to do anyway, and she was already his wife so her desire for him has already been established. Basically, the Serpent and Adam are basically noted as the main offenders in this while Eve is sort of just told to do what she is already going to do.

Proverbs 31:31 tells us to honor women for the things they do.

Ephesians 5:21 tells husbands to submit to their wives as much as they submit to them.

Ephesians 5:28 tells husbands to love their wives as much as they do their own body.

If you want to focus on the sexist laws, then you have to focus on the rest too and, trust me, no one's living by those standards, so God pretty much screwed us all over. On the other hand, some of those "sexist" laws do apply to both men and women equally and some are rather specific.

For example, Deuteronomy 25:11-12 says that a woman would get her hand cut off if she grabbed another man's balls while her husband is fighting that man. That's awfully specific. Is that the first thing Hebrew women think of doing when they see their husbands in trouble? What happens if she punches the guy in the balls? Will that still count? Is it okay if her husband wasn't in trouble? What if she just grabs a stranger's balls because of some grudge or whatever? And how exactly did the first time a woman did this go? Do it go like this:

Wife: "Oh no! He's got my husband in a choke hold! What should I do!? Umm... Umm... I know! I'll grab his balls!"

Guy: "Yeow! Hey that's not fair! Those are my sensitive parts!"

Wife: "Well let go of my husband!"

God: "Dang, I feel sorry for the guy with his ball's getting grabbed. Yo, Moses, cut that b*tch's hand off, will ya."

Moses: "Cut off her hand!"

Crowd: "YEEAAAH!"

Wife: "Wait what!?"

You see how ridiculous some of these rules are? Let's find another one!

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is a rather horrible law for both genders. Why both? Because what happens if its female- on- male rape? Does the man marry his rapist and she pay his father some money? No? Oh wait, can't she just claim she was "raped" and simply force the man into paying her father money and marrying her? Probably. So God basically did this:

God: "Oh snap, what's going in this little corner? Guy getting some action? Oh crap, he's raping her! Oh snap! How do I handle this situation!? Oh, I know! Yo, chick! You have to marry the guy! Sure, he's your rapist but you're basically damaged goods at this point. Hope you guys live a happy life! Oh snap, what's going in this corner? Oh crap, is that chick raping the guy? Oh no, you aren't? He's raping you! Oh, I'll totally believe that! Now you guys have to get married! Hope you guys live wonderfully!"

The interesting thing about this law is that it's not even talking about rape. It's when a guy gets a girl hot and bothered and they go to town and some people find them (kind of like when your parents catch you in the middle of doing it with your girl). I have know idea why they keep using the word "rape" when all it does is cause confusion.

Still, the point I want to make is that the laws are extremely strict and ridiculous and to judge the entire Bible based on them is rather shallow considering that there are parts of the Bible that suggest that those laws aren't all that important or necessary for your salvation. Basically, God doesn't care about you shaving your head. He really doesn't.
 

V

Oldschool DMC fan
Dude, that's why I use phrasing like "tend to", "many", "some" because obviously I don't mean "all" and "every" person. You could sure save yourself the time of pulling up every point to say "not everyone" because I already know not everyone falls into the exact same category. Unless you really, like, enjoy doing it a whole lot. Which it looks like.
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
You are going to find a great deal of this everywhere. It's a hard line to set because people will definitely abuse it.

You can't give men the absolute because they will most definitely take advantage of it and you can't give women the absolute because they will do worse.

For men this can, and often is, a lose/lose situation.

Example. Self defence. Man is getting hit by woman. If he fights back he just hit a woman, end of story, everyone will simply say he is a woman beater and leave the rest out. Man doesn't fight back and suddenly it's 'you got your a$$ kicked by a woman' and the rest is out. Self defence is such a blurred line for men, the cultural stigma is that if you are getting hit by a woman you should be man enough to take it but the reality is that getting hit by a woman with martial arts training is no joke, the problem is that it gets turned to one.

I was raised by women and they would often glorify the gender to me but then turn and become rabid when they spoke of or interacted with other women leading to an obvious double standard. When I brought it up they would tell to just let them know and they would handle it... Yeah, that is the stupidest solution.

There is no easy answer. I have too many women in my life that I know I would rip someone's jaw off if they tried to hurt them to claim I don't understand the protective instinct, but at the same time I've seen too much of this bull$hit to know that not all women are the saints as we would like them to believe, no matter what they look like. Same with men.

Anyone here watch SVU? There have been a few episodes regarding this subject matter.

In one specific episode an apparent autoasphyxiation accident leads the SVU team to a man who claimed to have been raped by 3 women, all who were powerful and successful in some way. One of the lawyers for the defence argued that they wouldn't have raped him, that it was psychologically impossible. Well, not long after they manage to prove that they did, in fact, rape him the same layer, without missing a beat, changed her stance and turned it on her defence, arguing that her client wasn't responsible but rather the leader of the gang who was a vicious bitch and even a rapist.
 
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Railazel

Well-known Member
Dude, that's why I use phrasing like "tend to", "many", "some" because obviously I don't mean "all" and "every" person.

Except you make statements that seem to contain "all" of a community such as:
The trans community itself
men who dress and look like women, not transwomen per se,

So if you don't mean "all" and "every" then just be careful of your wording. It would save me a lot of time if you did.

You are going to find a great deal of this everywhere. It's a hard line to set because people will definitely abuse it.

You can't give men the absolute because they will most definitely take advantage of it and you can't give women the absolute because they will do worse.

Indeed.

For men this can, and often is, a lose/lose situation.

Yeah, the best thing I can call it is a double- edged sword.

Y
Example. Self defence. Man is getting hit by woman. If he fights back he just hit a woman, end of story, everyone will simply say he is a woman beater and leave the rest out. Man doesn't fight back and suddenly it's 'you got your a$$ kicked by a woman' and the rest is out. Self defence is such a blurred line for men, the cultural stigma is that if you are getting hit by a woman you should be man enough to take it but the reality is that getting hit by a woman with martial arts training is no joke, the problem is that it gets turned to one.

This is basically the same issue with Domestic Abuse and that's because women are supposed to be victims and are thus incapable of hurting men unless trained to do so. Even then, when they are training to fight men, they are celebrated and empowered by those around them but, to the guy she's fighting and his friends or whomever, he just got beat up by a woman- a statement that still cuts her as weak.

I was raised by women and they would often glorify the gender to me but then turn and become rabid when they spoke of or interacted with other women leading to an obvious double standard. When I brought it up they would tell to just let them know and they would handle it... Yeah, that is the stupidest solution.

Men are the same way but a little bit more subtle about it, no?

I've seen too much of this bull$hit to know that not all women are the saints as we would like them to believe, no matter what they look like. Same with men.

I concur.

Anyone here watch SVU? There have been a few episodes regarding this subject matter.

In one specific episode an apparent autoasphyxiation accident leads the SVU team to a man who claimed to have been raped by 3 women, all who were powerful and successful in some way. One of the lawyers for the defence argued that they wouldn't have raped him, that it was psychologically impossible. Well, not long after they manage to prove that they did, in fact, rape him the same layer, without missing a beat, changed her stance and turned it on her defence, arguing that her client wasn't responsible but rather the leader of the gang who was a vicious bitch and even a rapist.

Was this the one with male stripper being raped or someone else?
 
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