On Dante's motivation and vengeance

[pfizer]

Hi guys, I need to get something off my chest, it's been bugging me quite a bit since it was mentioned a few days/weeks ago.

So, apparently Dante is only helping the Order so that he gets to exact his revenge on the demons. Again, a much darker take on Dante's motivation -- in the Classic games, he was motivated by a single, life-changing event, the death of his mother. In DmC, however, it was much more prolonged, the demons apparently abusing him throughout his youth.

First of all, I believe that Dante as a merciless killing machine who doesn't give a s**t about humans just takes something special about the character. Classic Dante, for all his nonchalant attitude about world-ending situations, always gave off the vibe of fighting for the greater good, despite being up against god-like beings. Becoming a cliche' "I'm-only-in-it-for-killing-no-one-is-innocent" type is one of the worst possible things they could do to his character.

This brings me to my second point, which I believe is what NT is trying to do, and that is to give Dante depth. When they said he was only in it for revenge, I think there is the unmentioned "...at first" there. I mean, you can really only take vengeance so far before a character becomes doubly unsympathetic (coughGodofWarcough). I'm guessing he finds a deeper, more noble purpose during the course of the game.

And now, *this* is why him being part demon and part angel is a bit problematic for me. If he's not in anyway human, then why would he want to save people in the first place? I mean, sure, it was demons who tortured him when he was young, but what the hell did people ever do for him? Even so, let's say he does end up saving humans -- what would make him want to take part in our world? Why would he be setting up shop us a demon hunter for hire? Does the title "Devil May Cry" even mean anything anymore, since he's an angel too?

Again, I was hoping that this was the meaning of the quote in the very first trailer; that Man is the middle ground between absolute good and absolute evil, with unlimited potential for both. I actually had the theory that the reason why Dante can wield both angelic and demonic weapons has nothing to do with his Angel or Demon bloodline, but because of his human blood. Demons can't understand Angels and vice versa, but humans have an infinite capacity for both.

I'm almost tempted to compare Dante to Superman, a ridiculously powerful being fighting for humanity while still not being one. The key difference is that Superman is in fact, still more human than Dante, due to being raised in a loving, ordinary HUMAN family. The fact that his parents were able to instill in him the virtues of a hero makes Superman's reason for fighting for humanity much more believable. I'm just hoping they can give us a compelling reason for why Dante becomes the hero that he is.

 

[V]

Maybe that female character they have introduced will affect him in some way. Well... almost certainly.

 

[chocolatepanda]

When they said he was only in it for revenge, I think there is the unmentioned "...at first" there. I mean, you can really only take vengeance so far before a character becomes doubly unsympathetic (coughGodofWarcough). I'm guessing he finds a deeper, more noble purpose during the course of the game.

Dont remember them sayin he was only in it for revenge. I think the reason he kill demons is because they keep attacking him in the beginning so he's just fighting back and then he joins The Order for some reason, so yea vengeance may play a part but not a huge one like GoW.

I actually had the theory that the reason why Dante can wield both angelic and demonic weapons has nothing to do with his Angel or Demon bloodline, but because of his human blood. Demons can't understand Angels and vice versa, but humans have an infinite capacity for both.

Also you mention human blood in Dante its been said he's half demon and angel so how did human blood get mixed in? Tameen has said angel doesnt necessarily equal good and virtuous in DmC and Sparda and Eva did have a kid so they understand each other to some degree. And even if angels and demon still equall pure evil and pure good would that make Dante who is half of each "human" technically since like a human he has the potential to pursue good or evil?

 

[V's patron]

I think this describes DMC3 Dante as well since he wasnt in it to be a hero, he just wanted vengeance for most of DMC3.

It wasnt till he met lady that he thought of the consequences of his actions or his own reason for being a hero.

 

[Zilla]

I think perhaps We should step back a bit and take a look at the bigger picture; Dante has both Angelic blood and Demonic blood, effectively enabling him the ability to become either very good or very bad. We, as humans, have a little Angel on one shoulder and a little Devil on the other, We know it as our conscience.

Being an Angel would suppose that one is entirely pure and incorruptible, having only the capacity for all things good and kind, being a Demon on the other hand supposes that one is entirely evil and sinister, having only the capacity for all things bad and cruel.

But Humans aren't like that, there is no Black or White when it comes to any individual being, it's not who You are but what You do that defines You as a person.

The problem is choice. Choice is what makes Dante just as Human as You or Me.

 

[wallenb]

Well a reason Dante could be fighting for Humans is because in Limbo humans are being manipulated by demons. And since Dante is going through the same thing, its only right to stop the demons.

 

[darkslayer13]

I think perhaps We should step back a bit and take a look at the bigger picture; Dante has both Angelic blood and Demonic blood, effectively enabling him the ability to become either very good or very bad. We, as humans, have a little Angel on one shoulder and a little Devil on the other, We know it as our conscience.

Being an Angel would suppose that one is entirely pure and incorruptible, having only the capacity for all things good and kind, being a Demon on the other hand supposes that one is entirely evil and sinister, having only the capacity for all things bad and cruel.

But Humans aren't like that, there is no Black or White when it comes to any individual being, it's not who You are but what You do that defines You as a person.

The problem is choice. Choice is what makes Dante just as Human as You or Me.

the idea of Angel's as good and kind isn't really accurate. in the Bible they are basically Lawful Neutral (they do what God wants whether it's saving someone or committing genocide and they show no signs of caring which one ) and Ninja Theory has said that angels in DmC are not going to fit the modern 100% good, super nice interpretation of angels so if any angels show up we can reasonably expect them to fit that same Lawful Neutral pattern of behavior (the exact god would probably be different but the idea is the same)which doesn't really contrast the Lawful Evil behavior demons seem to show in DmC.
and I strongly doubt NT is going to make demons all 100% evil for two reasons. One: Sparda is still part of DmC and still the same basic character and his actions show a Chaotic Good alignment (the exact opposite of Mundus) and two: one of the core themes of Devil May Cry is that every single thing that exist has a choice. a demon can choose good just as easily as a human can choose evil and NT seems to be paying enough attention to the original series to know how important that concept is to Devil May Cry.

 

[Zilla]

the idea of Angel's as good and kind isn't really accurate. in the Bible they are basically Lawful Neutral (they do what God wants whether it's saving someone or committing genocide and they show no signs of caring which one ) and Ninja Theory has said that angels in DmC are not going to fit the modern 100% good, super nice interpretation of angels so if any angels show up we can reasonably expect them to fit that same Lawful Neutral pattern of behavior (the exact god would probably be different but the idea is the same)which doesn't really contrast the Lawful Evil behavior demons seem to show in DmC.
and I strongly doubt NT is going to make demons all 100% evil for two reasons. One: Sparda is still part of DmC and still the same basic character and his actions show a Chaotic Good alignment (the exact opposite of Mundus) and two: one of the core themes of Devil May Cry is that every single thing that exist has a choice. a demon can choose good just as easily as a human can choose evil and NT seems to be paying enough attention to the original series to know how important that concept is to Devil May Cry.

Good post, I wasn't aware of this. Hopefully My original post holds some relativity.

 

[Railazel]

in the Bible they are basically Lawful Neutral (they do what God wants whether it's saving someone or committing genocide and they show no signs of caring which one ) ...

Actually, that would make them Lawful Good (for the most part) since God makes his decisions on what is the most fair and just way to do things, basing his decisions on what actions have been done and how they have affected people.

 

[Razyel]

If Dante's only motivation was revenge he wouldn't have joined the order, more like killed every member of it, so yeah he actually does give a **** about humans

 

[Dante47]

Exactly. If he was seeking only revenge, he would be independent. I'm sure he isn't fond of the demons, but he isn't seeking revenge on them as a whole. I'm sure Mundus personally tortured him since he is the son of Sparda.

Also, there is strong evidence showing that Sparda might not have succeeded in saving the human race. Demons still seem to have a grasp on the world, and only the Order is standing up to them. Dante's goal might be to finish what his dad started.

 

[darkslayer13]

Actually, that would make them Lawful Good (for the most part) since God makes his decisions on what is the most fair and just way to do things, basing his decisions on what actions have been done and how they have affected people.

Lawful Good entities question orders and act on their own ideals. Even if the one giving orders is Lawful Good (which is in itself questionable) the one obeying orders is still Lawful Neutral if the only thing that matters to them is following orders.

 

[788Masri]

a while back i read an article by NT profiling Dante. i think its on this site somwhere, any how it said that Dante's suffering gave him sympathy for the opressed. he wants to make sure that noone has to suffer at the hands of demons like he did. ive never heard of the revenge angle in this game until now. but it makes sense i mean think about it. if you spent your entire life being presectued, manipulated and tortured by demons who also killed your family (At least Eva) wouldnt you want revenge. now as long as NT play this right itll turn out fine. like how empty it is or how its never enough or how it changes you into something worse than what you hate. buut if they go the God of War route (im not even gonna try and be subtle) then you end up with ME KRATOS! ME ****ED!ME SMAAASH!!

 

[pfizer]

Great responses from everyone here

I also think that NT's trying to give Dante a sort of character arc, to show him actually becoming more like the Dante we know and love, at least in spirit if not exactly the same person. One of the main reasons I've always liked Dante and pretty much hated Kratos was because the latter is a vengeance-fueled douchebag who blamed everyone for his problems and slaughtered indiscriminately, innocent or not.

I was getting pretty tired of people in other forums saying that this Dante is nothing like the one they know -- they're right, of course, he isn't, at least NOT YET. In Batman Begins, it took Bruce Wayne almost killing a man with a freaking gun and then running away to China, training with a League of Assassins, to finally figure out his purpose in life. I believe that we will see this Dante grow from a foul-mouthed jerky guy to someone more noble and heroic.

Good show guys; you're making me have faith in this game and its community again

 

[Railazel]

Lawful Good entities question orders and act on their own ideals. Even if the one giving orders is Lawful Good (which is in itself questionable) the one obeying orders is still Lawful Neutral if the only thing that matters to them is following orders.

Well, even in that case, they are still Lawful Good since Angels follow orders on the basis that it's good for all man (they have free will like us, so they're not bound to do their orders just because God says so) because they know that God knows best.

I'm assume that the angels here are in the Chaotic Neutral area.

 

[darkslayer13]

Well, even in that case, they are still Lawful Good since Angels follow orders on the basis that it's good for all man (they have free will like us, so they're not bound to do their orders just because God says so) because they know that God knows best.

I'm assume that the angels here are in the Chaotic Neutral area.

1.Lawful Neutral does not mean no free will. if you choose to obey orders because they are orders you are Lawful Neutral. a lack of free will would mean not having any alignment.
2. Lawful Good doesn't just mean doing the right thing or the thing you are told is the right thing. Lawful Good means doing the right thing in the right way and doing everything you can to avoid causing harm to anybody. doing something because someone else has a plan that is beneficial in the long run but at times harms a lot of people is something only a Lawful Neutral entity would do.

the only character in DmC likely to be Chaotic Neutral is Dante (probably becoming Chaotic Good by the end of the game.)

 

[mrrandomlulz]

I Got it:

Dante is helping humans

Because humans make Red Bull, which is good, Demons make Virtility, which is sh*t

 

[Railazel]

1.Lawful Neutral does not mean no free will. if you choose to obey orders because they are orders you are Lawful Neutral. a lack of free will would mean not having any alignment.
2. Lawful Good doesn't just mean doing the right thing or the thing you are told is the right thing. Lawful Good means doing the right thing in the right way and doing everything you can to avoid causing harm to anybody. doing something because someone else has a plan that is beneficial in the long run but at times harms a lot of people is something only a Lawful Neutral entity would do.

the only character in DmC likely to be Chaotic Neutral is Dante (probably becoming Chaotic Good by the end of the game.)

Lawful Neutral implies that you hold up to the codes given to you whether you believe in them or not. You are a strict rule- follower. I'm saying Angels follow their code because they believe it's good and better for all. Neutral entities, of any type, don't follow a moral code, but Angels do, so they are placed in the Lawful Good alignment because they side in the decisions that they know are good, fair, and/or just.

And I figured Dante was Chaotic Neutral as well (though he seems Chaotic Good- ish).

 

[darkslayer13]

Lawful Neutral implies that you hold up to the codes given to you whether you believe in them or not. You are a strict rule- follower. I'm saying Angels follow their code because they believe it's good and better for all. Neutral entities, of any type, don't follow a moral code, but Angels do, so they are placed in the Lawful Good alignment because they side in the decisions that they know are good, fair, and/or just.

And I figured Dante was Chaotic Neutral as well (though he seems Chaotic Good- ish).

True Neutral, Neutral Evil and Chaotic entities don't follow a moral code. Lawful Neutral always follows a code that is what being Lawful is. it isn't about obeying any rule made by anybody. some Lawful entities don't even obey any outside rules. what Lawful Neutral means is that an entity follows a strict code (sometimes it's laws made by someone else but sometimes it is a personal code) and will not go against that code under any circumstances. the code Angels follow is to follow God's plan and trust that what he wants is always the right thing. they do this because they believe that his will is just and right. if they did not believe in him they would follow someone else. Lawful Neutral does not mean slave. it means enforcing Justice and Order at all costs. there are things Lawful Good entities will not do even if they are the best action in the long term. Lawful Neutral can do those things without hesitation.