IP/Title Recognition

[LysseC]

snip

Well, as for the contrast between a Reboot and an alternative universe, if you define a reboot as a take on the story that changes some of the original story's core elements, then DmC fits that definition, and is not just an AU version of DMC: one of the core elements changed being exactly the missing shop.
So I'd say that, even if the name of the series was inspired from the shop, it still defines something that goes beyond the inspiration for its name. So the name remains even if the shop is missing.
I also think that "alternate universe" and "reboot" are two concepts that do not overlap completely, even if they can overlap in some cases (they are not mutually exclusive)
I follow your definition of reboot, and give my definition of "AU" as follows: an AU is a "porting" of set of characters in a different situation (for example, in a different time in history, or in a different world, sa, per say, characters from a modern world with magic ported into a modern world without magic).
So, for example, the last Spiderman movie is a reboot but NOT an alternate universe, because the setting is the same.
DmC, on the other hand, is a reboot AND possibly an alternate universe, because we have angels in the lore, which were missing in the previous series (although one can argue that maybe there could have been in the old series, since nothing IMPEDES their addition; but I don't think this point so strong because if there had been angels in DMC world, then they should have been mentioned from the beginning, or else they just seem a late addition with little justification).

And I really appreciate your point about Dante's moral standing being crucial to his character. I just differ in one thing: I think that the fact that he is nephilim (and thus does not have human blood), is not really relevant to this moral standing.
On the contrary, the fact that he praises humanity and its freedom and stands up in their defense can be seen as even a greater merit of him if he is not human at all.
This makes me think that a possible evolution of the story of DmC that somehow shows that Vergil was at least partòy right would thoroughly conflict with what the series is (unless we give Vergil's words a meaning which is much more complicated; I've made a post about this in another thread a while ago, just personal speculation on Vergil's character, but which can be contrasted by saying exactly what you said about Vergil being the symbol of the opposition to Dante's moral view).

And another thing to consider, which I remembered just now.
Many fans say that "Devil May Cry is not a story-driven franchise". This makes me think that the most important elements that form the core of a Devil May Cry game may be gameplay features, moreso than story elements.

Loopy already said what i wanna say lol

that' because Loopy is a wise woman!

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

snip

oh, I completely forgot to talk about the shop in my previous post I apologise for that.
Yep, it was a core element that was removed. I think if you remove what gave the previous games their title,
than you should at least replace it with something of equal value. Even if they keep what goes beyond this,
it feels empty and shallow when the inspiration is missing.

I actually cant find a flaw in your definition of an AU and I agree with what you said, especially the part with them not being mutually exclusive. However I would say it went too far for just a reboot.
The point of a reboot is to keep important elements just as it is to change or alternate core elements.
This reboot was not successful because it changed so much, that it alienated the fanbase.
Combine that with the wrong PR strategy that was used here and the result is ... well, not a nice sight.

Talking about the AU:
Quite a few characters were actually "ported" into a different world with DmC.
Now the differences between the worlds might not be huge and there is some sort of resemblance,
but they are in fact completely different worlds.
It is really kind of mixed up a bit as you already wonderfully explained.
I believe that the reason is that NT being inexperienced were not able to handle the pressure from the fanbase and Capcom, resulting in them changing their Dante in the middle of development, because they lost focus on where they wanted to go with their Dante. Same for their World. I feel like they never really settled down on a certain choice and in the end we got this kind of rare mixture of spin-off, reboot and AU. Not a successful one though :/

I am really not sure how to categorise this game, though it is not a pure reboot either.

Yes, it can be seen as a great merit (whether it is a greater merit is questionable), but it is not the same merit.
There is a difference. In this case he recognises that humans hold certain values and morals and that these are things worth fighting for, but he himself seems to not be driven by these morals and emotions and thus does not prove that these allow you to overcome any obstacles. I am not arguing that one moral standing is better or worse, just that they are different and that I prefer the original moral standing.
Mainly because there is something that bugs me with this one: where does Dante take his confidence in humanity from?
I mean it was handled a bit sloppy, it felt like something was missing in the story and I would say that that part would be that there are no interactions between Dante and Humans.
Granted, there were never a lot of interactions like that presented in DMC before, but if you go with this kind of moral standing, than you need to have important interactions between Dante and other humans.
NT even laid out the perfect setting for this with the Order Headquarters but they COMPLETELY wasted it!
I actually still cant believe they managed to do that. That is why Dantes character development feels forced and unnatural in DmC. The interactions with Kat were good but not nearly enough in my opinion.
Another thing that bugs me is the recent trend with making everyone and everything a Nephilim even if they in fact are not.
Nephilim are actually a cross between angles or fallen angels (demons) and humans (if we get really specific: with a human mother).
Dante is not a Nephilim! The previous Dantes were more of a Nephilim than DmC Dante.
just the nerd in me wanting to clarify this :/
because it feels like Nephilim are becoming the next vampires to me.

Anyways, what would be the opposite of DmCs Dante? Someone who sees no value in humans, nothing worth protecting or fighting for. From this perspective DmCs Vergil was actually portrayed correctly, just a bit shallow like Dante.

And yep, till now DMC was never a story driven franchise.
But this was one of the things the reboot was supposed to change: making the story important.
Which means it is actually important to think about what they did with the story in DmC and evaluate the game according to the story. With evaluating I mean determining what the core aspects of the DMC story/lore should be.

 

[LysseC]

snip

Hehe, maybe we can say that DmC was an AU reboot bordering on spinoff?
However, I completely understand what you say about NT changing it a bit too much, to the point of making DmC almost non-recognizable as a Devil May Cry game.
I tried this little mental experiment: imagine (ONLY) the game, the characters, the weapons, the moves etc having totally different names. For example, a game called Nephilim Rising with a protagonist named Bob, who has a twin named Carl and so on... (silly names, I know, but just for the sake of the experiment...)
You would not think of it of a Devil May Cry game, obviously, because, well, it has another name. It's Nephilim Rising. But you would still clearly recognize the influence the Devil May Cry franchise had on Nephilim Rising.
Would you think it was just a copy?
for a game, especially a game of such a franchise, I think NT did quite the good job.I personally don't know, but surely this mental experiment suggested me a crucial point: the fact that a certain work is given a certain name is of essential importance for its classifying.

As for Dante defending humanity, well, you have to think that he thought himself a human for most of his life (since his memories were cancelled up until he got them back), so I think it normal that he may feel part of it. You may say that the same could have worked for Vergil, while Vergil clearly reacts differently, but then, this is exactly the moral merit of Dante against his brother.

And the point about Nephilims, yeah, I agree that maybe some more accuracy could have been used, but... is there a name for half angels half devils? Curious...

And I agree that the story is lacking in many points, I would say that there is a lot of potentiality to it, but it was left just at that: a potentiality. They do not really go in depth (the case of the Order you mentioned is an example of what I mean).
But we must consider that to bring it to its fullest, the story would have needed much more space (basically, in terms of cutscene time), which I think was not really possible, exactly because Devil May Cry is not story-driven. That is a problem.

However, I personally appreciate just what DmC is, even if only as potentiality, because it still gives much room for speculating. To me, it's alright, because I excuse it on Devil May Cry not being story-driven (in the sense that I accept that the plot may not be perfect, even if imo it represents a small improvement over DMC).
What I mean is, if DmC was a movie, I would not have excused it, but I think that for a game of such a franchise NT did quite a good job.

 

[Demi-fiend]

that' because Loopy is a wise woman!

... at times. :troll:


Edit:

Can I call you Sir Unknown? xD ... for some reason you established the image of an honorable knight inside my head now.
might be the avatar or just the epic way you write at times?
Anyways, the honor is mine to receive a like from such a noble man such as yours, Sir Unknown

Only if I can call you Han SoLoGaMer. XD

The avatar is actually an assassin by the name of Deathstroke who's real name is Slade Wilson (he provided the inspiration for Deadpool).

And you're right about me having a Knight-like attitude. I wanted to put Azrael as my avatar, but I couldn't find one from Arkham City that I really liked.

Technically, both Deathstroke and Azrael are both ninjas, but some ninja were historically Samurai, who were referred to as Japanese Knights.

European Knights also probably did a lot of wetwork as well, so you're not too far off.

Yeah, as I said, I understand where you want to go with the M Exploration and I think it would be great to see it implemented in this game.

Wow, thank you for actually taking your time to elaborate on your point so much. I understand what you mean now
and I really feel honored for you actually spending so much to write to answer me. Thank you.

Not a problem. I enjoyed elaborating on my game ideas because I'm so passionate about them. Games like Dishonored, Kingdoms of Amalur, and Darksiders 2, and Arkham Asylum come close to creating the perfect game experience, but I believe there can be more.

I really like the way you think actually. This could give the game more layers to deepen the game experience.
And I agree about extending the timespan a DMC plays in. In fact I would really support the type of breaks you mentioned.

I think a lot of people would. Not just in DmC but also in the old series as well. Too many times have we seen Old Dante interact with people in the books or manga but never in the game (outside of his brother, "love-interest-girl" and the villains mostly).

If we had Dante take on different demon hunting jobs like he did in DmC (he was assigned by the leader of The Order to take out different targets), then he can also interact with different characters to raise the emotional stakes for the player during the third act when "**** gets real".

Did you play or know the RTS Starcraft 2? In that game you always return to your base between missions where you
may interact with other characters or receive upgrades, etc. and I believe it would be awesome to come back to Dantes shop to choose the next mission and do other stuff like in Starcraft.

That's the best idea I've heard all day. I wasn't even sure how to incorporate the social aspects into DmC, but it looks like you've hit the nail right on the head. Instead of having to rely on the statue of time, he can get to know different angels and demons to get upgrades.

Angels can give Dante demonic weapons as well in the old DMC series if they were ever incorporated into the story. They can just say they defeated the so-and-so demon before handing it down to Dante.

I am always in favor of having to make choices in a game. From simple choices such as going left or right to more complex moral choices. They add some spice to a game.

That they do. In fact, you see more and more games take this approach -- and not just binary choices, but with three or more options available at your disposal.

However I think a choice at the end like you mentioned would actually make it harder to write a sequel to the game because you would have two alternate endings to continue from.
While it would certainly be awesome I dont think it would be viable from the developers perspective in this case.

So much harder -- but the payoff is that much greater as a result.

I'm going to compare two games with similar gameplay -- I'm going to get flamed for this, but I believe it's necessary to bring a comparison such as this one to light in order to improve the gaming industry as a whole.

Metal Gear Solid 4 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution

Both games allow you to complete the levels through action or stealth. And both games allow you to get to know their respective characters.

However --

(and this is where the flaming comes in)

In Deus Ex: HR, getting to know the characters allow for a different gameplay experience. If you spend too long at headquarters talking to people, later on other people start spreading rumors about you not taking work seriously.

These conversations take place in "real time". The game itself doesn't stop when you reach headquarters.

MGS4... doesn't have that. It's talk-action-talk-action... with more talking than action.

Neither does MGS4 have as many rpg mechanics as well integrated in the gameplay as HR does.

Also, MGS4 is set mostly in a desert slum while in HR you have almost an entire quadrant of a cyberpunk city to explore.

Anyway, I a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but I just happen to favor HR more than MGS4. It's my own personal taste, nothing more.

Those kind of endings are better suited for games like Final Fantasy where each sequel is a new story completely unrelated to the games prior.

What do you think?

Hideky Kamiya was originally going to have a different cast of characters in every Devil May Cry game before Capcom took the series away from him.

This is probably one of the few things that I can agree with him on, seeing as how I don't like him very much.

It's not that he's a bad person, it's just that I don't like his overall attitude.

I also think a new cast of characters is needed in every installment. It's probably the only way to keep a series to continue indefinitely. Assassin's Creed is a good example of this.

However, NT set up the story in which Vergil would once again challenge Dante with his newly acquired power and demonic army -- there should probably be at least one more game with the current story before it has to end permanently. One where Dante has to finish Vergil off once and for all.

Most third entries in a series don't do as well as the second (this applies to both movies and games), so it would be better to have just a duology and leave it at that.

The next Devil May Cry game after that (whether it's set in the old or new series), should have a different cast of characters entirely to keep the story (and maybe even the gameplay) from getting old.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

snip

haha, yeah, lets do that

ah, the terms just a copy, copycat, rip-off ... I dislike them, but I will elaborate that later.
To answer your question, that would be kind of like God of War to me, which was obviously influenced by DMC and turned all of it into something of its own.
If I would imagine DmC to be a title of its own, I would imagine it to be something more akin to what was shown in the 2010 reveal trailer for DmC seeing as that was the direction that NT wanted to go originally.
Being a new IP it would have more room to exploit that fact and add something unique to the game itself.
The gameplay would also not be comparable to previous titles seeing it has no styles system.
The most I would recognise would be the resemblance of quite a few moves to DMC.
Its not like huge broadswords are unique to DMC either. Neither is dual wielding handguns.
They would not really be recognisable seeing as there designs would be different.
Though the inspiration might be obvious with some of the moves.
Storywise it would be completely different, the only thing being similar would be the fact that it features two brothers in conflict with each other. But that is not something unique to DMC either.
I guess I would be clearly able to see DMCs influence in the game just like I see it in GoWs too.
A lot of complaints would no longer be valid though, since it would be a new IP.

Whether it would be good or bad depends, but I dont think it would have been successful,
simply because it would have had to compete with MGR, GoW and the actual DMC that would also be released in that case.
GoW and DMC would bring their own fanbase and I am not sure which one would be more successful between MGR and Nephilim in that case.

What I would say: I dont mind trying to take elements of successful games, but you need to make it your own and add that special something that makes your game unique in comparison to others.
Your game has incredible potential for a new IP, focus on eliminating all the problems in the game and making your protagonist a bit more relatable as well as adding more depth to either the gameplay or story.
Try to figure out where exactly you want to go with this game.

That is all that comes into my mind participating in your mental experiment.
Imagining a scenario is nice and all, however we have a different situation at hand and we have to evaluate according to this situation. And yes, the fifth installment in a series will be judged differently from a new IP and that is only fair.
If we judged new IPs and Indie games according to the standards of triple A games, it would mean all Indie games and new IPs suck, which is of course not the case.

As for Dante again, while that might be the case, I never got the impression that he lived a life which allowed him to think deeply about humanity or see much of value in humans. And that is what I am talking about, when I mention wasted potential. Just as you said, a lot of things were only mentioned briefly and left alone forever hence.

No, there is not a special name for them seeing as demons are just fallen angels themselves.
Meaning a hybrid would just be another angel. However you have other options such as "Archon" how they are described in Gnosticism. In Gnosticism "Archon" are both Angel and Demon.
I think that would be the closest to what a hybrid between Angel and Demon could be called.

I believe it is doable with enough effort even if DMC was never story-driven.
Take Unknowns ideas he mentioned in this thread for example.
The "Metroidvania Exploration" would add more depth to exploring the DMC world.
You could find a lot of hidden stuff like portraits or relics that are related to the lore or story.
Part of the plot could be presented like that without really disturbing the action.

And if you stretch out the timeline as Unknown mentioned, you could add brakes in between missions where you return to some sort of base (be it the order or Dantes shop) and interact with people there.
You could even be given the option to choose which mission to do next, or to do side-missions you might have unlocked previously by finding certain relics, etc.

See? I believe there is a lot more you could exploit to present the story too without disrupting the gameflow.
It just needs a talented writer and a talented team.

I personally can appreciate the ideas it brought on the table and think it is such a pity that a lot of people are not able to appreciate them because of its flaws even though I can understand them.
For the next DMC I would like it if not everything this game introduced is discarded again. I think there was a thread to discuss exactly that. What should be implemented in the next DMC from this DmC and what not.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I've always really figured a game to not be explicitly about the character you play as, so much as the elements that make of the gameplay itself. While Dante is an integral part of the game, he can easily be replaced with nearly any character, Nero and Vergil proved this.

For DMC, the main things that I think make up that franchise are the free-form combat system using both melee and ranged weapons, running around some hostile area looking for passage through, and earning orbs (or a similar currency) from defeating enemies with which to purchase skills and items. At its core, a Devil May Cry game needs those things, otherwise it won't be a DMC - maybe that's why I love DmC as well

However else they choose to expand upon this is something on a case-by-case basis, from new weapons, skills, the enemies, or even the characters you meet or play as. If they made a DMC game exclusively about Sparda, Vergil, Nero, or even a new character, it'd still be a DMC if it retained those "core concepts."

But, "what's in a name" after all? The core concepts could come from any IP and they'd still be incredibly fun for action gamers.

 

[LysseC]

snip

I agree with you on mostly everything, just two words to better explain what I meant, than I will consider myself satisfied (because, well, since we agree, there's no need to repeat what we think over and over ).

My mental experiment imagined this possible game as IDENTICAL to DmC, but with ONLY THE NAMES changed. So the art, the cutscenes, the moves, everything apart from the names would be identical to DmC. (obviously, in this scenario, DmC doesn't exist). What I meant to ask was SIMPLY if such a game would still be considered part of the DMC franchise.
I think not because it lacks the name, even if it would still be recognizable as something that took elements from that franchise.

And about Dante, I think that it depends on each person, how your way of thinking is shaped by your experiences in life. Probably Dante didn't explicitly wake up one day thinking "Ok, I am a human, and thus humanity is good". But the fact that he has lived as a human, thinking he was human, may have helped him in not seeing such a difference between himself and humans. And thus siding with them, disregarding his blood.

And I completely agree with the suggestions you made about inserting plot elements without using cutscenes, but I think that it is still true that many fans were not searching for plot complexity in such a game, however it was presented.
I think that this is the real problem for the plot issues in DmC, the fact that on the one side they wanted more plot complexity, and the fact that on the other side this was still not the central aspect in the game.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

Only if I can call you Han SoLoGaMer. XD

The avatar is actually an assassin by the name of Deathstroke who's real name is Slade Wilson (he provided the inspiration for Deadpool).

And you're right about me having a Knight-like attitude. I wanted to put Azrael as my avatar, but I couldn't find one from Arkham City that I really liked.

Technically, both Deathstroke and Azrael are both ninjas, but some ninja were historically Samurai, who were referred to as Japanese Knights.

European Knights also probably did a lot of wetwork as well, so you're not too far off.

hahahaha, alright, its a deal, Sir Unknown!

oh, that sounds interesting actually. I need to look a bit more into Deathstroke and Slade Wilson later in that case.
and it seems like I found out about your passion xD
quite amazing how knowledgeable you are about this. and Im sure we only scratched the surface of your knowledge.

Not a problem. I enjoyed elaborating on my game ideas because I'm so passionate about them. Games like Dishonored, Kingdoms of Amalur, and Darksiders 2, and Arkham Asylum come close to creating the perfect game experience, but I believe there can be more.

I am still grateful and it is great that we are both able to enjoy ourselves here like this now ^^

I think a lot of people would. Not just in DmC but also in the old series as well. Too many times have we seen Old Dante interact with people in the books or manga but never in the game (outside of his brother, "love-interest-girl" and the villains mostly).

If we had Dante take on different demon hunting jobs like he did in DmC (he was assigned by the leader of The Order to take out different targets), then he can also interact with different characters to raise the emotional stakes for the player during the third act when "**** gets real".

yeah, if we actually had some more interaction with the order we would have become emotionally attached to them and it would have made a bigger impact when the place actually gets raided.

That's the best idea I've heard all day. I wasn't even sure how to incorporate the social aspects into DmC, but it looks like you've hit the nail right on the head. Instead of having to rely on the statue of time, he can get to know different angels and demons to get upgrades.

Angels can give Dante demonic weapons as well in the old DMC series if they were ever incorporated into the story. They can just say they defeated the so-and-so demon before handing it down to Dante.

yep, that is what I was thinking. Imagine you explore the world of DMC and find a rare relic.
A cutscene follows where Trish or Lady appears for example revealing that the relic is important to them.
When you are back in the shop later you find her in the shop hanging around.
If you talk to her, you not only have some interaction between them, but also receive an optional secret mission.
Or she might want to trade an optional weapon for the relic. (All that without a annoying cutscene)
All these kind of stuff would be possible, not only with the main characters but also with minor characters.
In case of the order you could just lead some small optional conversation with other members.

The possibilities are incredible with this kind of system.
If we talk about angels or demons, I thought they could hang around the base because they follow some sort of agenda Dante might be useful for. In exchange for blue (angelic) or red (demonic) orbs you collect they would teach Dante new moves from either side. (that would be how you unlock new moves and combos)
There would be a backyard for the base where you can try the new moves and choose accordingly.
and there is lots more you could do with this. Maybe even more differently colored orbs for different styles?
Depending on with which style you damage and finish off enemies, orbs of different colors spawn in proportion to the damage dealt. Which means the style you use most would evolve fastest, adding more depth and a motivation to actually switch your attacks up.
And when you come back with some new weapon you purchased somewhere they comment on it allowing yourself to really immerge in the DMC world.

These are just some of the ideas that just popped into my mind. I am sure you would have lots more.
Now that I think about it, this is could be really incredible if handled well.

That they do. In fact, you see more and more games take this approach -- and not just binary choices, but with three or more options available at your disposal.

yeah, that is actually a development I have enjoyed a lot in this generation.

So much harder -- but the payoff is that much greater as a result. ...snip


In Deus Ex: HR, ...snip.

Yeah, I know what you mean and why should anyone flame you for an opinion?
Be a bit more confident in yourself and your opinion and ignore moronic flamers and trolls.
This is simply an opinion after all.

Anyways, they dont affect the game ending in such a huge scale though like the final decision you suggested.
I agree with you that these kind of features can actually be awesome if implemented well.

The final decision you suggested is as you said viable if you use a different cast with each installment.
The majority of the fanbase of this game however think differently.
For them Dante is DMC. Maybe not for you or me, but for the majority I think that is the case.
It would be quite risky and I cant really determine how it would pan out in the end.

Hideky Kamiya was originally going to have a different cast of characters in every Devil May Cry game before Capcom took the series away from him.
This is probably one of the few things that I can agree with him on, seeing as how I don't like him very much.

oh, I didnt know he had such a thing in mind.
well, as I said, this is something that would depend on the fanbase and should be handled carefully.
Thats all I can say as I dont want to talk bullsh*t.

snip

thank you for participating in the discussion. Your input is actually really helpful in advancing this conversation, thanks

I understand where you are coming from. So rather than focusing on the visuals of the gameplay of DMC,
you focus on the concepts of gameplay.
(The only aspect of gameplay that we havent mentioned yet, would be the mechanics of gameplay,
but from my point of view we dont have to do that anyway seeing as game mechanics evolve with each installment,
thus always change and thus cant be representing for any game ... is there someone who thinks differently about this?)

Anyways, I really like this idea of focusing on concepts rather than specific elements. It really is an interesting take on things. It allows for more freedom in answering our issue and in developing sequels for games in general I think.
However with more freedom, there is also more room for failure, if we talk from a developers or publishers perspective.

Personally I would really favor concepts and I wish more publishers and devs would do that and risk failure a bit more,
otherwise they will all end up like EA and Activision ...
On the other hand I can understand their side too ... it is about a lot of money after all.

I would really like to read the thoughts of others on this matter to sort my own thoughts.

Again I am really greatful for your great post TxA.

snip

yeah, there is really no need to. I think what TxA posted could be helpful in advancing our discussion, maybe you can add something to that too?

ohh, okay, I misunderstood your mental experiment a bit. I apologise ^^
In that case the resemblance would just simply be too strong to DMC games.
It would really feel like a rip-off in that case even though I hate that word.
But that is just a hypothetical situation and I doubt that kind of game would make it through any kind of development procedure unrelated to DMC.

Yeah, I now what you are trying to say about Dante, but either way, if there is focus on story like in this case, it is simply a must to at least show some of it. I mean I am not saying it is impossible to care for other humans with his kind of background, but it was never really portrayed. In the end it makes the same mistakes as its predecessors. It does not explain certain things that should be explained.
I agree with what you say here. This is kind of what went wrong in terms of story with this game and also its predecessors too. That does not mean it is impossible though. It just means it just failed till now.

 

[Demi-fiend]

snip

Well, before I get into this, I just wanna say that I agree with everything you said.

I want to add that I had wanted to incorporate some sort of rpg system, as well. But if it were something like Symphony of the Night it would feel rather superfluous. I'm not saying that there's anything bad about SotN, I'm just saying that there are other ways to implement "leveling up" like in the way you just described (more style use = more orbs for that specific style).

Now, we all know that DMC as a whole should have 60fps, lock-on, and so forth, but there should be more to the gameplay itself than just that.

That's where your ideas come in.

I had originally made a post describing DmC as a "Diabolus X" ("Deus Ex" inspired title, obviously -- "Diabolus" is Latin for "Devil" because back then, "Devil" was always used in the "plural form" for some reason) rpg due to the fact that since he has three different "stances" (Angel/Demon/Human) he should have different play styles as well.

But then as I wrote it, I realized that there was already a gameplay mechanic that was similar to what I was describing.

The dreaded "Color-Coded" enemies.

I didn't want to go back to that, especially not after Vergil's Downfall eliminated them from that portion of the game. And also after "ObsessedWriter" went through the trouble of taking them out via modding (thanks, Writer).

But then you came along with your "selective orb" idea. Fascinating. I don't have any other ideas than that (not without incorporating stealth mechanics), so I'll just leave it at that for now.

The amount of time spent in a certain stance during a combo would be equal to the amount of different colored orbs dedicated to leveling up each stance.

Perfect.


Now, onto the other "Elephant in the Room".

The shop itself.

Like you said, the shop could be used as a social hub to interact with others and therefore win new moves and health upgrades through social "rank-ups".

Now, there is one game that has a very social aspect that came out a good long while ago (19 years or so, perhaps?).

This is "Sins of the Father".

Gabriel Knight becomes a "shattenjager" or a "shadow hunter" by the end of the game. He owns a (book) shop, and has a sarcastic female partner who is a love interest, but not a girlfriend.

Knight himself occasionally dabbles in the occult due to his unorthodox investigative process throughout the course of the game.

Kind of like this:

Back to the topic at hand:

Does any of this sound familiar? The "rough-around-the-edges-yet-still-somehow-charismatic" hero? The "not-quite-love-interest"? The quasi-supernatural/realistic setting?

Yes, you are looking at a vastly better-written Devil May Cry... ten years (more-or-less) before DMC1.

(also Shadowman, but that's another topic entirely)

However, I'm not saying they stole from Gabriel Knight.

I'm saying they stole from Symphony of the Night and Blade. :troll:

Anyway, I said better-written, not better gameplay. Most "point-and-click" adventure games need to have good writing because their gameplay mechanics were... not enjoyable.

Well, not to me at least. Zack and Wiki be damned. :ermm:

Now, as to the "learning of the moves" themselves, I can direct you to another game -- one that's very much inspired by Devil May Cry:

Red Steel 2; one of my favorite games of all time. I never liked Westerns -- but now, I can find one that's suited to my tastes.

This can be your fabled "backyard" used for training and such.

In conclusion:

This "perfect game" (which I shall refer to as "Diabolus X"), has the right gameplay mechanics, along with the right storytelling mechanics to go along with it.

So, what's keeping this game from being made?

Well, like you said -- financial backing. Without it, "Diabolus X" (or another game like it) will never come to fruition.

I have an idea, however. Not a good one, but it'll have to serve as a starting point for now.

Kickstarter or some other source of crowd-funding: This is probably the most obvious answer; however, there's no guarantee that people will actually pay for it.

Which leads me to:

Make it fully 2D.

For the social, "real life" aspects of the game, we can have a 2D overhead view for the sake of a different gameplay point of view and being able to explore the hub without putting different people on different "floors" (because you can only fit so much in a side-scrolling perspective).

For the combat, "Limbo" portion of the game, we have a 2D side scrolling perspective similar to "Muramasa: Curse of the Demon Blade", so that the player will be able to pull off aerial combos with enough space to maneuver around the field.

On a random note: I just want to add that "Limbo" reminded me of the "rpg battle" screens -- whenever you encounter a monster, the background itself would change. Limbo works with those same principles -- therefore, it can be classified as an "rpg mechanic" of sorts.

This game can be a reality... but it would have to be with a new IP. Sure it would be really similar to DMC, but we'll just have to withstand the jeers of the naysayers while we do what we can to forge a new space in the "action-gamer" lexicon.

 

[Demi-fiend]

One last thing:

This can be the bar that Dante hangs out in (from time to time):

Edit:

This could be the Diabolus X "Theme"

(or, at the very least, serve as the inspiration for this theme)

Off-topic:

I thought you'd be interested in this:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

http://medieval-castles.org/index.php/medieval_spies

http://suite101.com/article/historical-ninja-vs-fantasy-ninja-a370374

I had to double-post because I can only fit in 5 youtube vids per post. Sorry.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

*reads title and automatically knows it's about the "TRUE DEVIL MAY CRY" Subject*View attachment 585

Seriously guys, everytime we bring up this topic, it's bound to end in the same thing. A FLAME WAR! Tony_Redgrave, Angel, Dark Drakan, or Angelo_Credo ends up schooling all of our asses and locking the thread, warning a few members.

a number of those few members continue to act like idiots and get banned and the leftovers become regulars on the forum and get their names put in gold plaques.
Rinse and Repeat

Heck that's how I joined (The DmC Issue), that's how Zerolove joined (The Mysterious hooded girl)
That's how ReRave joined (The Flag Issue). and that's how DragonMaster2010 joined (I forget which thread)

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

snip

wow, okay, as much as I would like to talk about creating our own version of the game with you,
I dont think this is the right place for it. Is there another thread where we could discuss this or should I make a new one.
Because, you know, I would like this thread to stay more or less on topic.
Still I think our discussion is worth talking more about, just not in this thread.

Anyways, as always I am always grateful for your amazing input.

*reads title and automatically knows it's about the "TRUE DEVIL MAY CRY" Subject*
Seriously guys, everytime we bring up this topic, it's bound to end in the same thing. A FLAME WAR!

How about you try reading what I wrote first before judging?
I understand that you are very anxious but you misunderstood this topic completely and your behaviour in fact is superficial and ignorant, in other words childish and unproductive.
(I dont mean to offend you with this, but I need to be a bit harsh here, sorry :/ )
It is this kind of behaviour that starts flame wars, not certain topics themselves.
Dont try to blame a topic for the misbehaviour of certain individuals.
And as I said I also understand where you come from, but please trust me on this one:
I wont let this topic turn into any stupid flame war. I care too much about it to allow that and I believe in what I wrote.
I want this discussion to go beyond just the Devil May Cry series at one point and well, I dont want to repeat myself,
so I suggest you actually read my first post and then follow the conversation ^^

and maybe you will find that you actually will enjoy this topic? Well, I would at least appreciate it if you could honor us with your own opinion.

small side note: that meme is annoyingly huge and forces you to scroll a lot for no reason.
would it be too much to ask of you to remove it or use a smaller one?

 

[Loopy]

*reads title and automatically knows it's about the "TRUE DEVIL MAY CRY" Subject*View attachment 585

Seriously guys, everytime we bring up this topic, it's bound to end in the same thing. A FLAME WAR!

There's hasn't been a flamewar yet. Now do you want to add something productive and useful to this sdiscussion? ^_^

The possibilities are incredible with this kind of system.
If we talk about angels or demons, I thought they could hang around the base because they follow some sort of agenda Dante might be useful for. In exchange for blue (angelic) or red (demonic) orbs you collect they would teach Dante new moves from either side. (that would be how you unlock new moves and combos)
Now that I would like to see. It would be an interesting way of learning new moves.
There would be a backyard for the base where you can try the new moves and choose accordingly.
That almost reminds me of assassin's creed. Espcially the ones with Ezio in. He has a base, people to talk to and a place to practice new moves he has learned. Plus a gallery in the base to view all items he has collected. I think I'd like to see that sort of thing in DMC or DmC. Maybe a gallery for statues of bosses or regular enemies you have killed.
and there is lots more you could do with this. Maybe even more differently colored orbs for different styles?
Depending on with which style you damage and finish off enemies, orbs of different colors spawn in proportion to the damage dealt. Which means the style you use most would evolve fastest, adding more depth and a motivation to actually switch your attacks up.That would certainy change up the gameplay, but I'm wondering how mnay orbs are too many? I guess there could also be something like the 'porud soul' system in DMC4?
And when you come back with some new weapon you purchased somewhere they comment on it allowing yourself to really immerge in the DMC world.

Yeah, I now what you are trying to say about Dante, but either way, if there is focus on story like in this case, it is simply a must to at least show some of it. I mean I am not saying it is impossible to care for other humans with his kind of background, but it was never really portrayed. In the end it makes the same mistakes as its predecessors. It does not explain certain things that should be explained.

I think the problem with that was that it was left to player to read between the lines. For sure you could say Dante had trust issues. He's been dumped in orphanages run by demons. According to the Bob fight, those demons regularly tried to kill him as a child in their 'care'. Then he broke out and joined a gang, and ended up in that Hellfire prison run by demons. Then he figures he shoudl live each day doing what he wants because he thinks demons will kill him soon. So what's the point in caring for people if you think you will die soon? So I can see why he has trust issues and that kind of attitude.
I don't think he doesn't care. More like he's never been given any motivation to care because no one ever cared about him. But when Kat comes along, they begin to trust each other and go through a lot together, and then Dante begins to want to care about the world.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Well, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read the OP, aaand

It's exactly what I expected, the OP wants to keep the harshness and stupid insults to a minimum, and since I see this thread headed in one particular direction (The OP requesting their own thread be locked) I shall at least share my opinion.

My opinion is that it is a MATTER OF OPINION, for instance, I consider Mark Waid- Joe Kelly to be the "True" Deadpool.Why?
Because in my eyes, Daniel Way basically turned one of my favorite characters who was a hilarious one-liner making badass who showed emotion when necessary, into a unfunny living stand-up gag who was nothing more than a punching bag.
But there are people who LIKE Daniel Way's Deadpool run, so to them, it could be considered the "True" Deadpool.
Same with DMC and DmC.

To a lot of people, only DMC1 is considered a true DMC. To me, the definition of true DMC is DMC3, and the true DMC's are DMC3, DMC1, DmC, and DMC4. In that order.

But Solo, just do me this favor, the minute someone brings up a certain topic in this thread, is the minute you request it get locked, I will PM you the topic so that noone will say anything about it.

Because the topic this thread is about can EASILY lead into that topic which leads into a flame war much easier than this thread in it's current state.

 

[Loopy]

Well, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read the OP, aaand

It's exactly what I expected, the OP wants to keep the harshness and stupid insults to a minimum, and since I see this thread headed in one particular direction (The OP requesting their own thread be locked) I shall at least share my opinion.
So you did it to try and provoke a negative reaction? What was the point in that? Plus I don't see where OP has asked for a lock on this thread:/
My opinion is that it is a MATTER OF OPINION, for instance, I consider Mark Waid- Joe Kelly to be the "True" Deadpool.Why?
Because in my eyes, Daniel Way basically turned one of my favorite characters who was a hilarious one-liner making badass who showed emotion when necessary, into a unfunny living stand-up gag who was nothing more than a punching bag.
But there are people who LIKE Daniel Way's Deadpool run, so to them, it could be considered the "True" Deadpool.
Same with DMC and DmC.

To a lot of people, only DMC1 is considered a true DMC. To me, the definition of true DMC is DMC3, and the true DMC's are DMC3, DMC1, DmC, and DMC4. In that order.It just depends. Each person has their idea of what the 'true' DMC or the 'true' Dante because they have changed over the course of 4 games. Even though I was with DMC from the beginning, it's a toss up between DMC1 and DMC3 for me over which one I think defines what is a DMC game.
DMC1 set the foundations and DMC3 set a lot of the building for what we now come to expect from a DMC game.

But Solo, just do me this favor, the minute someone brings up a certain topic in this thread, is the minute you request it get locked, I will PM you the topic so that noone will say anything about it.

Because the topic this thread is about can EASILY lead into that topic which leads into a flame war much easier than this thread in it's current state.

I'm sure it will be fine. There will be no flamewar unless you keep talking about it. This topic was going just fine before.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

There's hasn't been a flamewar yet. Now do you want to add something productive and useful to this sdiscussion? ^_^

ah, please dont add fuel to the fire. That was addressed to me and it was my responsibility to reply.
Everyone else should ignore that post and proceed with the discussion and let that be my worry ^^
thank you for trying to defend my topic though.

I think the problem with that was that it was left to player to read between the lines. For sure you could say Dante had trust issues. He's been dumped in orphanages run by demons. According to the Bob fight, those demons regularly tried to kill him as a child in their 'care'. Then he broke out and joined a gang, and ended up in that Hellfire prison run by demons. Then he figures he shoudl live each day doing what he wants because he thinks demons will kill him soon. So what's the point in caring for people if you think you will die soon? So I can see why he has trust issues and that kind of attitude.
I don't think he doesn't care. More like he's never been given any motivation to care because no one ever cared about him. But when Kat comes along, they begin to trust each other and go through a lot together, and then Dante begins to want to care about the world.

yeah, I realized that while I wrote it too xD
but this thread is not the place to discuss that. What do you think, should I open another thread for that discussion or is there already a similar thread?

Yep, I agree with you, it requires the player to read between the lines just like its predecessors.
Maybe I judged too early when I said that it was simply a mistake.
You always need to read between the lines at times in good stories.
So let me correct myself a bit here.
I think it left too much unexplained for a fluid story-telling. There is certainly room to interpret the story as you did.
Regardless of whether the interpretation is correct or wrong ... wait, screw that. There would be no point to interpretations if we could categorise them in right or wrong.
Let me phrase it differently: An interpretation will always only be an interpretion, even if it is as beautifully logical as yours.
It would be a different story if at least there was hint in the game that would support your interpretation.
(Was there such a hint and maybe I missed? I am not sure actually, been a while already since I last played it)
But as long as these kind of things are not there, the substance of the story will be missing
and substance is essential if you want to tell a great story.
If you dont have substance, you have at best a good sketch of a story.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

Well, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read the OP, aaand

It's exactly what I expected, the OP wants to keep the harshness and stupid insults to a minimum, and since I see this thread headed in one particular direction (The OP requesting their own thread be locked) I shall at least share my opinion.

did you actually read the discussion that you can judge where the thread is headed?
to me it does not seem like that at all, again you are being superficial in my eyes. (correct me if I am wrong)
I am not saying this to anger you, but I think you should stop a bit here and reflect what you are doing.
I am sure you are intelligent enough to realize that and I am always open if you want to talk about it.

However, I dont want to derail this topic any further with this, so we should continue this discussion elsewhere if you are willing to do that of course ^^

My opinion is that it is a MATTER OF OPINION, for instance, I consider Mark Waid- Joe Kelly to be the "True" Deadpool.Why?
Because in my eyes, Daniel Way basically turned one of my favorite characters who was a hilarious one-liner making badass who showed emotion when necessary, into a unfunny living stand-up gag who was nothing more than a punching bag.
But there are people who LIKE Daniel Way's Deadpool run, so to them, it could be considered the "True" Deadpool.
Same with DMC and DmC.

To a lot of people, only DMC1 is considered a true DMC. To me, the definition of true DMC is DMC3, and the true DMC's are DMC3, DMC1, DmC, and DMC4. In that order.

But Solo, just do me this favor, the minute someone brings up a certain topic in this thread, is the minute you request it get locked, I will PM you the topic so that noone will say anything about it.

Because the topic this thread is about can EASILY lead into that topic which leads into a flame war much easier than this thread in it's current state.

well, I think that was pretty much obvious. Of course it is a matter of opinion. did you really read my OP?
I specifically asked for everyones opinion.
And by collecting our opinions I believe we might reach what I mentioned in the OP. This part is however just my optimistic belief and the ideal solution. I will try as hard as I can to get there but there is no guarantee.

Okay, please do so. I am always happy if I can learn something from the experience of others.

 

[Loopy]

ah, please dont add fuel to the fire. That was addressed to me and it was my responsibility to reply.
Everyone else should ignore that post and proceed with the discussion and let that be my worry ^^
thank you for trying to defend my topic though.
Got it! I'll back down and respect your wishes regarding that^_^


yeah, I realized that while I wrote it too xD
but this thread is not the place to discuss that. What do you think, should I open another thread for that discussion or is there already a similar thread?
I think there might be one somewhere, but probably the thread is dead now. You can open the new topic if you like.
Yep, I agree with you, it requires the player to read between the lines just like its predecessors.
Maybe I judged too early when I said that it was simply a mistake.
You always need to read between the lines at times in good stories.
So let me correct myself a bit here.
I think it left too much unexplained for a fluid story-telling. There is certainly room to interpret the story as you did.
Regardless of whether the interpretation is correct or wrong ... wait, screw that. There would be no point to interpretations if we could categorise them in right or wrong.There are actually some subtitles files in the PC version that show missing scenes and dialogue that do explain some points in the game or expand on others. If they had been included, it would have made some plot points more detailed.
Let me phrase it differently: An interpretation will always only be an interpretion, even if it is as beautifully logical as yours.
It would be a different story if at least there was hint in the game that would support your interpretation.
(Was there such a hint and maybe I missed? I am not sure actually, been a while already since I last played it)
But as long as these kind of things are not there, the substance of the story will be missing
and substance is essential if you want to tell a great story.
If you dont have substance, you have at best a good sketch of a story.

True. There are parts of the story that I would have liked to be made clearer. Oher times, I could read between the lines, but still would have like some concrete evidence to support what I was thinking.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

First, and foremost, let me just be clear, I don't WANT to be an asshole, I'm just trying to keep you from playing with explosives.

Second, I admire how easily you keep the thread under control.

Third, I am going to make a seperate thread warning users about the dangers of this kind of topic. The thing is, we lost A MOD because he constantly had to stop us from bickering over this kind of topic until he got sick of it. And he was the mod who got along with me more than the others do.
A lot of user's don't remember this mod that well, but he was like the prince of the forum to me. (While Steve is king, Dark Drakan is the general, Angel is the queen, and Angelo Credo is Altair Ibn-La'Ahad)

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

True. There are parts of the story that I would have liked to be made clearer. Oher times, I could read between the lines, but still would have like some concrete evidence to support what I was thinking.

thank you very much for respecting my wishes.

alright, then I will create a new one when I have structured and formulated my thoughts first. I dont want to rush it because I think it could become amazing. so I guess I will have more time to do so this weekend.

I see, but the problem remains that in the end they were cut from the final release version.
Even if they might be helpful, only a selected few will have access to such information.
The average player will never get to see those.

Yeah, its always a balancing act. I am glad we can agree on this ^^

just a quick question:
have you read TWOxACROSS comment in this thread?
He introduced a cool idea to our topic from my point of view and I would like to discuss it a bit further.
Could you read his comment and my reply to it and add some of your own thoughts to it?
I am sure you can be helpful to grasping TxAs idea.

snip

Yes, I think with your pm I understand you completely now.
We had a bad start with each other, so let us start again now.

My name is Sologamer, Han SoloGamer xD pleased to make your acquaintances, Historian Lulzy ^^

Why, you flatter me too much :blush: thank you, but it is nothing special. I just want to provide our readers a nice platform to discuss a topic that was hard to discuss till now because of the polarisation of the fanbase.

If you believe that to be right choice, I am behind you to support you and it saddens me to hear of the loss of a loved one.
However, please dont let that horrid experience taint and close off your heart to the world.

I hope that we both may have gained something of value from our little skirmish.

Yours faithfully,
Han SoloGamer