IP/Title Recognition

[SoLoGaMeR]

I have been wondering about this question for a while already and even had a few chats with my friend about it but we actually never really reached a basic understanding about the issue.
In fact I am still surprised at just how much our opinions differed from each other.

I decided to put this question out here now for two reasons.
One of those is the fact that currently the fanbase of this series is extremely polarised and I am of the opinion that this would be actually quite helpful in understanding this matter.
The second reason is more of a personal reason, because I actually believe that this could actually help both sides to actually get at least a little bit closer again by providing them some sort of basis for constructive and enjoyable discussions.

It could just be me being overly optimistic though ...

Anyways, the comprehensive question is
"What makes an Intellectual Property or Title in the Gaming Industry recognisable?"

e.g.:
What makes a "Resident Evil" a "Resident Evil"?
What makes a "Devil May Cry" a "Devil May Cry"?
etc.

Let me elaborate on the question a bit here through examples.

In the clothing industry a brand is recognizable mainly through three aspects.

- One is their logo or symbol. (e.g.: is there anyone who would not recognise the swoosh of Nike?)
- The next would be their image. I can recognise what brand some commercials are about even before the brand is mentioned or shown.
- The final aspect would be the designers, the creative minds behind the products.

I put up this example because it portrays in a simplified manner what makes a product in the clothing industry recognisable as part of a certain brand.

But if we turn to take a look at the Gaming Industry, this matter becomes much more complicated.
Simply because a Game has a lot more layers to it than a simple cloth.
There are huge teams working on developing a game instead of just a few.
Different genres exist also, which means that what makes a game recognisable might depend on these genres too and we only scratch on the surface with these two points, there is a lot more to games.

So, this kind of question is really difficult to answer, I know, but I believe it is worth thinking about a bit.
I have seen a lot of people on both sides argue about what a "Devil May Cry" Game should be about.
Unfortunately not in a way anyone could appreciate the discussion.
Both sides appear like children throwing a tantrum because they just throw opinions at each other.
Why?
One of the many reasons would be that there is no established basis between both sides on the topic they could base their argumentation on.
And maybe you now caught on why I believe thinking about this might actually be helpful?
I hope you kinda understand what I meant with the basis for discussion in the beginning now.

And of course I have my own thoughts on the matter, but first I would like to hear or well, read your thoughts on the matter^^

I dont expect anyone to actually come up with proven facts or anything (though if you can I would not mind xD). I would like you to simply state your opinions on the matter as I am really interested in what you think.
And beware of this when you read other peoples replies. They are just opinions, so there is no need to bash or attack anyone in any form for having a certain opinion.

woah, this became actually quite long ... I apologize
I guess I might be overthinking stuff a bit? xD

 

[Loopy]

For me, what makes a Devil may cry game is this:

• Dante must be in it as Devil may cry is Dante's story
• Stylish ratings for combat
• Killing demons, lots of killing demons
• Big boss fights
• Red orbs. In every devil may cry game there are orbs
• The divinity statue to buy upgrades
• The devil trigger
• Using both guns and swords in combat
• Getting new weapons while you play the game

 

[Demi-fiend]

Same, but with Metroidvania exploration:

Oh, and Social Links:

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

For me, what makes a Devil may cry game is this:

• Dante must be in it as Devil may cry is Dante's story
• Stylish ratings for combat
• Killing demons, lots of killing demons
• Big boss fights
• Red orbs. In every devil may cry game there are orbs
• The divinity statue to buy upgrades
• The devil trigger
• Using both guns and swords in combat
• Getting new weapons while you play the game

hmm, I see, very interesting actually and I actually agree with some of your points such as killing demons and stylish ratings xD

so you don´t usually pay attention at to who develops or works on a game or rather you don´t mind this aspect. if I understood correctly?
And I would categorise almost all of your points in "Gameplay" seeing as they are all certain aspects of gameplay.
With the exception of your first point, which would be categorised in "Story" or "characterisation" I guess?
Do you recognise the game through the character of Dante or rather the plot around him?

And do you also play other games, and what are those games about in your opinion?
Just to have something to compare between.

I am sorry if I am bothering you too much with all my questions.

 

[Demi-fiend]

As long as the game is good, I don't pay attention to who makes it.

I mean, I know a few names here and there, but I don't specifically ask that they come back for the sequel if someone else can do just as good a job as their predecessor. ^_^

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

snip

thank you for the first like I received on this forum
and pleased to meet you.

ah, I can see why you would like to see Metroidvanias exploration in the DMC games.
hmm, but Social Link? How would you implement that in the game?
or did I misunderstand you and you are talking about what you recognise the Persona and Castlevania games through?

As long as the game is good, I don't pay attention to who makes it.

I mean, I know a few names here and there, but I don't specifically ask that they come back for the sequel if someone else can do just as good a job as their predecessor. ^_^

That is a very open-minded attitude. I like that.

 

[Loopy]

hmm, I see, very interesting actually and I actually agree with some of your points such as killing demons and stylish ratings xD

so you don´t usually pay attention at to who develops or works on a game or rather you don´t mind this aspect. if I understood correctly?I don't mind who works on it so long as they keep those kind of features.
And I would categorise almost all of your points in "Gameplay" seeing as they are all certain aspects of gameplay.
With the exception of your first point, which would be categorised in "Story" or "characterisation" I guess?
Do you recognise the game through the character of Dante or rather the plot around him?
For me, Devil may cry is about Dante. He's the one who's been in it from the start. I don't mind about the plot, so long as it has him in. Besides, all Devil may cry plots are about Dante saving the world from demons....so each plot is pretty much the same. If it's not the demon king himself, it's some human wanting demonic power.
And do you also play other games, and what are those games about in your opinion?
Just to have something to compare between.
When I play other games, what matters to me are the protagonist you play as, gameplay features, maybe also aesthetic style such as character and level design and sometimes the composer of the soundtrack or the writer of the script if they are known for being the main writer or composer of those games.
For example, when Nobuo Uematsu used to be composer for the Final Fantasy games, I would always associate Final Fantasy with his music.


With the recent Bioshock Infinite game, the ending was basically saying 'this is what is in a Bioshock game'. So, what I think of when I think of Bioshock is this:

• There's always a man that you play as
• A lighthouse to enter the city
• A fantastical city that is fully realised and detailed
• A dystopian society
• Supernatural abilities
• Gun combat FPS
• Some sort of big plot twist
• And Ken Levine doing the writing

I am sorry if I am bothering you too much with all my questions.

That's fine. You're only asking questions.^_^ I'll do my best to answer.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

That's fine. You're only asking questions.^_^ I'll do my best to answer.

Thanks a lot, Loopy. And to think that I was a bit reluctant to join the forum before.

I myself, would not mind other protagonists though I actually like Dante as a protagonist, preferably the kind of Dante that was in 3 since that was the first DMC I played xD (a slight case of nostalgia here)
Do you actually have a certain personality or image you associate with Dante in that case?
And I can wholeheartedly agree about the plot. I dont care too much about that in a Devil May Cry game either.
In other games it is an entirely different story though.

And taking Bioshock as an example was a great idea. because suddenly you want a certain person to actually work on the game. interesting isnt it? how our expectations shift between different games.
And I think that this is actually a huge problem currently with the Gaming Industry. With all of them trying too hard to be "mainstream" and also trying to turn "niche genre" games into "mainstream" games.
Its like big publishers dont want to recognize there are different genres, thus different preferances, thus different expactations of a game. It really makes me worry about the future of gaming, but I still have hope.

Unfortunately I have to say good night for today. I will check the thread tomorrow again to see what the other guys think.

 

[Loopy]

Thanks a lot, Loopy. And to think that I was a bit reluctant to join the forum before.You're welcome.^_^ Don't worry, we're not that scary here.

I myself, would not mind other protagonists though I actually like Dante as a protagonist, preferably the kind of Dante that was in 3 since that was the first DMC I played xD (a slight case of nostalgia here)
First Dante I played was DMC1. But for some reason, DMC3 is now the one I think of when someone talks about Devil may cry to me.
Do you actually have a certain personality or image you associate with Dante in that case?Dante does change from game to game. He's never the same.
But my image of Dante would be a mixture of things. A guy who defends the weak, he doesn't show that he's afraid, he's a bit cocky, maybe a little brash at times, says cheesy lines, eats pizza...can't think of any mroe right now- sorry>_<
And I can wholeheartedly agree about the plot. I dont care too much about that in a Devil May Cry game either.
In other games it is an entirely different story though.Yep, for games that are plot-driven, I care a lot about story, but for Devil may cry, I like the combat most and story second. I guess though with rebooted DmC, I do put more emphasis on plot because characters are given more chance to grow than classic DMC.

And taking Bioshock as an example was a great idea. because suddenly you want a certain person to actually work on the game. interesting isnt it? how our expectations shift between different games.
Very true. If I know a certain writer composer or designer usually works on a game, and I know they do a good job, I would like that same person to keep working on that game.
And I think that this is actually a huge problem currently with the Gaming Industry. With all of them trying too hard to be "mainstream" and also trying to turn "niche genre" games into "mainstream" games.
I think it puts too much pressure on everyone to try and be a Triple A title. There's no point in trying to compete with sales from games like COD or Assassin's creed. It's just not doable for some games and shouldn't be attempted.
Its like big publishers dont want to recognize there are different genres, thus different preferances, thus different expactations of a game. It really makes me worry about the future of gaming, but I still have hope.

 

[Onecrazymonkey1]

For me, what makes a Devil may cry game is this:

• Dante must be in it as Devil may cry is Dante's story
• Stylish ratings for combat
• Killing demons, lots of killing demons
• Big boss fights
• Red orbs. In every devil may cry game there are orbs
• The divinity statue to buy upgrades
• The devil trigger
• Using both guns and swords in combat
• Getting new weapons while you play the game

If they made another DMC/DmC game revolving around a different main character but one who is still within the same universe, would you still consider it devil may cry? for example if you had a game with Sparda or Vergil. I'm still on the fence about that really but because Vergil, Sparda and Dante are all related I might consider it a DMC game still. oh and I pretty much agree with everything you wrote so I hardly have much to contribute ha.

 

[Loopy]

If they made another DMC/DmC game revolving around a different main character but one who is still within the same universe, would you still consider it devil may cry? for example if you had a game with Sparda or Vergil. I'm still on the fence about that really but because Vergil, Sparda and Dante are all related I might consider it a DMC game still. oh and I pretty much agree with everything you wrote so I hardly have much to contribute ha.

Hmm, I'm not sure. For me Devil may cry is Dante's story. Maybe if they did it like Vergil's downfall and give it the abbreviated title of 'DmC: Vergil's downfall'.
What I mean is if they made a Devil may cry game, but not with Dante as the lead, they could title it like this:

DMC: Legend of Sparda

Something like that

 

[Onecrazymonkey1]

Hmm, I'm not sure. For me Devil may cry is Dante's story. Maybe if they did it like Vergil's downfall and give it the abbreviated title of 'DmC: Vergil's downfall'.
What I mean is if they made a Devil may cry game, but not with Dante as the lead, they could title it like this:

DMC: Legend of Sparda

Something like that

Kind of like metal gear rising then! I agree with you, I just want a Sparda and Vergil game and I couldn't really imagine them not having DMC/DmC in the title anywhere.

 

[LysseC]

That is a really good thread. I agree on most of Loopy's points, but I would eliminate speficic parts of gameplay like Divinity staues and red orbs. I think they are a good point in continuity, but not necessary to make a Devil May cry game.
If I played a DMC without red orbs, I would not have problems considering it a DMC. But that's my personal impression.

On the other hand, if the game had another protagonist instead of Dante, I would call it a spinoff, and not strictly a DMC.
This leads me to think about DMC4: if there was not a second part with Dante as the protagonist, DMC4 would have fallen in the category of spin-offs, because it had another protagonist... What do you people think of this?

 

[Loopy]

On the other hand, if the game had another protagonist instead of Dante, I would call it a spinoff, and not strictly a DMC.
This leads me to think about DMC4: if there was not a second part with Dante as the protagonist, DMC4 would have fallen in the category of spin-offs, because it had another protagonist... What do you people think of this?

I agree. If Dante was not in DMC4, I would have said that 4 was a spinoff.

 

[Demi-fiend]

thank you for the first like I received on this forum
and pleased to meet you.

ah, I can see why you would like to see Metroidvanias exploration in the DMC games.
hmm, but Social Link? How would you implement that in the game?
or did I misunderstand you and you are talking about what you recognise the Persona and Castlevania games through.

It was an honor to give you your first like.

Metroidvania open worlds have already made their way into action games like Darksiders and Arkham Asylum, so I see no reason not to have it in the Devil May Cry series.

About the Social Links:

Over the course of DmC, you slowly get to know Vergil. You slowly get to know Kat. In a sense, those are two "social links" that are already imbedded in the story.

Towards the end of the game, you start to understand what drives Vergil in his crusade against demons. With Kat, you see her suffer (even more than she's suffered in the past) and have her grow to have a deeper understanding of the demon world because of that.

At the end of the game, Vergil reveals his true intentions, and thinks that Dante would go along with him because of that. He was wrong.

This is a lot like the Persona 4 Golden ending where you confront Adachi (in a personal conversation that didn't take place in the first game) after you figure out that he's the villain.

Only this time, you have the choice to work with him as a villain as well if you decide not to tell anyone that he was behind the entire plot of the game.

Perhaps if they had given Dante a moral choice (yes, it's a tired gameplay feature, but in a game about an angel/demon hybrid, it would be appropriate), there could have been an alternate ending where he helps Vergil conquer Earth.

But, you can only put so much into a game before you run out of time.


Now, onto the Epilogue:

In Vergil's Downfall, Vergil comes to understand himself, and what his true goals are.

He lost whatever sanity he had (he was morally insane before, but never unhinged until Dante drove his sword through him) and therefore had nowhere to go but further into deeper reaches of hell (and within the fears born from his mind manifesting themselves in hell) to acquire unholy power, rid himself of his guilt and whatever lingering doubts he had in order to once again attempt to accomplish his own misguided mission.

Persona 4 also had a katana-wielding protagonist with a bowl-cut caught in a hellish dimension fighting monsters with his "astral projection spirit form" (persona/doppelganger). The comparisons practically draw themselves.

Now, while you're thinking that P4 had months to establish all of its respective character arcs, keep in mind that Catherine had it's own "Social Links" take place within the span of a week.

A Devil May Cry game could expand itself to take place within a few days like Catherine did, but even within a few hours, it's possible to have Dante take a break in between missions to go on side missions while getting to know the other characters.

Secret Missions were always about what Dante could do with his ability outside of "conventional" combat. Maybe some of those secret missions could be used for character development, like when Dante was solving puzzles and Vergil was talking about his childhood.

That's just one idea. There could always be a main dungeon like Tartarus, in which certain sections would only be open in certain days of the calendar. In between hunting demons, Dante could take time off to spend time with members from "The Order" or Phineas.

That is a very open-minded attitude. I like that.

Thanks. I try to broaden my horizons as much as possible.

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

snip

you guys are awesome
actually there are not a lot of places where you can hold a more or less intelligent and enjoyable conversation,
so maybe you guys are even more awesome than you realize yourself.

Yeah, I am aware that Dante changed with each sequel now. Which is why I asked that question in the first place.
There are a lot of people who criticized DmC, because they disliked the new Dante saying stuff like this is not the kind of Dante I know or want. And it is okay to think that, but what I would like to know in those cases is: What are your images of Dante?
Because not a lot of people actually elaborate on that and if I put myself in the shoes of the Developers,
this question actually becomes really important and puts them into some sort of Dilemma.
Unfortunately NT was very inexperienced with this issue seeing as they never actually developed a sequel to any title before.
And it showed. What could have become a cool plot with some great characters ended up shallow in comparison to what it could have been, simply because NT was not able to settle on a certain image of their characters and had to change them way too late in the development cycle.
So, maybe this is another point, people should actually clarify? Who is Dante in their eyes? So that future developers of DMC games actually understand what kind of Dante generally would be accepted by most of the fanbase?

Yeah, I think a good example of the plot-driven game would be Assassins Creed as another triple A game.
This game practically lives only through their story and beautiful scenery. And thats okay, because this game was actually made to cater to people who enjoy these aspects in the games. And that has not really changed since the first game.
But it becomes a different story if you suddenly try to change your target audience like it happened with DmC.
I would even argue that they did not have a clear picture of what kind of audience they actually wanted to address in this case.

I agree with you on this one.

If they made another DMC/DmC game revolving around a different main character but one who is still within the same universe, would you still consider it devil may cry? for example if you had a game with Sparda or Vergil. I'm still on the fence about that really but because Vergil, Sparda and Dante are all related I might consider it a DMC game still. oh and I pretty much agree with everything you wrote so I hardly have much to contribute ha.

oh, dont say that please. I am pretty sure you can contribute a lot to the conversation.
The question you formulated here is proof of that.
You could talk about what constitutes a game of your choice other than DMC for example.
That would give us something to compare between and actually we havent talked about the differences between genres of gaming. Do people expect the same stuff across all games of the same genre? What are the core differences of our expectations when we talk about different genres?

Just some food for thought to get you into the conversation^^

oh and on a random note: I always wanted a crazy lil monkey as a pet *.*
so I wont let you run away here xD

That is a really good thread. I agree on most of Loopy's points, but I would eliminate speficic parts of gameplay like Divinity staues and red orbs. I think they are a good point in continuity, but not necessary to make a Devil May cry game.
If I played a DMC without red orbs, I would not have problems considering it a DMC. But that's my personal impression.

On the other hand, if the game had another protagonist instead of Dante, I would call it a spinoff, and not strictly a DMC.
This leads me to think about DMC4: if there was not a second part with Dante as the protagonist, DMC4 would have fallen in the category of spin-offs, because it had another protagonist... What do you people think of this?

Thank you. And yeah, I was thinking like you do about some of the aspects Loopy mentioned,
but I think she pretty much nailed what visually makes a DMC a DMC in terms of gameplay.
The only thing I would add would be Dantes shop for me as it is where the game title originates from.

Your personal impressions and opinions is what counts in this thread ^^

And I would even go a step further and say if a series actually gets spin-offs it would showcase its success.

snip

Can I call you Sir Unknown? xD ... for some reason you established the image of an honorable knight inside my head now.
might be the avatar or just the epic way you write at times?
Anyways, the honor is mine to receive a like from such a noble man such as yours, Sir Unknown

Yeah, as I said, I understand where you want to go with the M Exploration and I think it would be great to see it implemented in this game.

Wow, thank you for actually taking your time to elaborate on your point so much. I understand what you mean now
and I really feel honored for you actually spending so much to write to answer me. Thank you.

I really like the way you think actually. This could give the game more layers to deepen the game experience.
And I agree about extending the timespan a DMC plays in. In fact I would really support the type of breaks you mentioned.
Did you play or know the RTS Starcraft 2? In that game you always return to your base between missions where you
may interact with other characters or receive upgrades, etc. and I believe it would be awesome to come back to Dantes shop to choose the next mission and do other stuff like in Starcraft.

I am always in favor of having to make choices in a game. From simple choices such as going left or right to more complex moral choices. They add some spice to a game.

However I think a choice at the end like you mentioned would actually make it harder to write a sequel to the game because you would have two alternate endings to continue from.
While it would certainly be awesome I dont think it would be viable from the developers perspective in this case.
That kind of endings are better suited for games like Final Fantasy where each sequel is a new story completely unrelated to the games prior.

What do you think?

 

[LysseC]

snip

I was thinking, if you add Dante's shop to the things that define a Devil May Cry game, then you should consider DmC some kind of spinoff, since there is no shop in there...
I remember taking part in a discussion about the fact that the name Devil May Cry did not really work well with the reboot exactly for this reason, and because no one ever talked about the fact that devils never cried, which was one of the relevant features of the previous series.
The reboot is really proving quite challenging for our discussion here.
What makes DmC a REBOOT and not a spinoff? I think the fact that we have Dante fighting the demons.
Which brings us to the problem of who is Dante then.
I woud list some of his "signature" features as follows:
-a halfbreed (be it half demon half human or nephilim... This makes me think, btw, would Dante still be Dante if he was half ANGEL half human?)
-fighting on behalf of humanity
-using guns and sword
-someone who faces his enemies with a joke on his lips, be it a bitter one like in DmC or a more lighthearted one like in the old series.
Do you think that having a twin brother that constitutes his "dark opposite" is one of the features that makes Dante Dante?

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

snip

thank you. you make such a great point actually.

and yeah, I actually really missed the shop in DmC. I really like the shop for some reason though it is hard to define what I actually like about it.
At this point I actually really consider DmC a spin-off because it is quite unlikely right now it will get a sequel.
or rather I consider this DmC to be an alternative Dante in an alternate Universe if you so will.
Kinda like how there are different versions of Spider-Man out there.

Dont get me wrong though. I believe that DmC got many of the small stuff that makes a DMC a DMC and they actually implemented ideas, mechanics and visuals that are nothing less than brilliant in their core.
Unfortunately DmC also discarded a lot of the stuff that the previous titles already polished.
Do I really need to go into details as to what those are? I think everyone should already know.
And this discarding of the achievements of the previous titles is what makes this game so unfortunate.
All the good things it did are not yet polished and they end up like gems hidden underneath a rubble of mistakes and failures, where many fail to appreciate them.
It makes me really sad because this game could have been so much more actually.

The reboot is really proving quite challenging for our discussion here.

yes, yes, YES! that is the whole point of why I created this thread. Like I mentioned the fanbase currently is extremely polarised because of DmC. And I wanted this discussion to give people some sort of basis to build their argumentation on.
If people can reach some sort of consensus here, they would have defined what makes a DMC a DMC,
thus they would have an objective basis to clarify what was correctly done in DmC and what not.
It would allow us to objectively talk about the question you formed for example. What makes DmC a Reboot and not a spin-off.
This means you could actually lead interesting, enjoyable discussions with most fans of the franchise about this matter.
Well, at least that is what I want to believe.

Now to answer your questions from my point of view.
I think the purpose of a Reboot is to actually change or alternate a few core elements of its predecessor,
while still keeping other core elements of the game.
I think it is safe to say that it is a very delicate matter which should be handled carefully.
The question of what should be changed and what not, should be addressed seriously (and not as half-assed as it was done here just for the sake of being "mainstream", because honestly that is the feeling I often get from the game).
There should be a certain goal behind a Reboot.

Anyways, one of the core elements to a DMC would be of course Dantes characterisation as you mentioned.
So, who is Dante in my eyes? While I enjoyed the Dante of the third DMC the most I dont particularly associate any specific personality to him. I rather associate a certain moral with him.
What kind of moral?
That there is value in being a human. That the morals, emotions and beliefs a human holds can drive us to sometimes make the impossible possible. That no other power as potrayed by his misguided brother Vergil can stand up to this.

And that is all Dante is for me actually. A symbol for this, because if we are honest he was never really properly developed as a character. That is why he appears as a living cliche in the previous title entries.

I once hoped that NT would be able to add some substance to his character with the reboot, but I was disappointed with the characters.

Anyways, back to the question: is DmC reboot or spin-off?
It was intended as a reboot but I think it did not manage to pull off this balancing act.
It ended up changing too many of the core elements to a point where it was not recognisable for a huge part of the fanbase resulting in a failure saleswise.

My own personal disappointment stems from the fact that he is not human anymore and I think it is obvious why that bothers if you look at my personal view on Dante. He is not simply a half-breed in my eyes.
The important part is that he is half-Human. I dont care about the other half (angel, devil, alien, god or whatever)
Being human, fighting for humanity comes naturally.

Guns and swords is another good point. The guns in this game feel a bit useless :/
They are there though.

I agree on the jokes part, but some would argue that he should be a bit more lighthearted, though I dont mind either way.
The only thing I would dislike is swearing just for the sake of swearing, simply to appear "cool" in a twisted way.
I dont mind good swearing if it is placed with some sort of purpose, but the "F you" conversation in DmC for example
was completely unnecessary. It would have been better if they had just shut up and attacked each other.

The purpose of the brother is to create a contrast to Dante, thus helping the audience to understand the moral I described earlier better. Is the only way to do this to give Dante a brother? No, but it was how it was handled in this series and
I would argue it is actually an elegant solution and it did kind of become a trademark for this series too.
So I would answer yes.

 

[Cabbage Detective]

Loopy already said what i wanna say lol

 

[SoLoGaMeR]

Loopy already said what i wanna say lol

That should not bother you too much. In fact quite a few people have had more or less the same view as Loopy till now.
If you follow the discussion you might find something you would like to add.
At least I would appreciate your input.

Dont be discouraged to participate in the discussion just because someone said what you wanted to say.
Your participation can add substance to certain views.

And this goes for anyone who reads this actually ^^