DMC vs DmC ACTUAL LOGICAL DEBATES: Episode 1: Death of Vergil

[mrrandomlulz]

(Despite the show intro, this IS a serious thread, though I don't mind some light hearted jokes, as long as we keep the thread on topic)

Mrrandomlulz here broadcasting to you live from Limbo City/Fortuna/Capulet City/ Mallet Island/wherever the hell DMC2 took place, with my new show! DMC vs DmC ACTUAL LOGICAL DEBATES! Instead of debating stupid things like 'ERMAHGERD, HARE!', or 'ERMAHGERD TAMEHM VIRSUS KAMEEYEAH', or 'ERMAHGERD WHY DIDNT Meg FINISH THAT Dragonmaster2010-Mrrandomlulz ROMANTIC BUDDY-COP FIC THAT GUEST STARRED A WALRUS!' (Seriously, Meg, I Loopy was hyped for that because the Walrus blows up the Death Star with it's laser-shooting rainbow pinwheel because Dragonmaster and I are so hot)
We will be actually looking in depth at the scenes and gameplay of certain topics in both games reading in-between the lines, having a quality debate, and boycotting Nickelback. AND THE AUDIENCE GETS TO PARTICIPATE by replying to the thread.

In today's episode, we will be discussing the fall of Vergil, a scene that happened in both games that both executed pretty well. But which does it better?

First, let me just say, even though my earlier critiques of Vergil's death in DmC are pretty harsh, my opinion of the scene has slowly grown positive as time has passed.

First of all, Vergil's role in the scene in each game:
I have to admit, before I got VD, Vergil's role in the finale of DmC seemed pretty bland and cliché to me. It wasn't until after I played VD that I realized the role in the scene wasn't just " I will rule the world as it is my rightful place!" But more like, "I am destined to be a guardian, an enforcer and if you can't see that, you are a threat to peace.". All in all, Vergil's role in the scene is a set-up for VD, and it's one hell of a set up at that.
If you don't have VD, it's kind of a disappointment.

Overall, 4.5 of 5

Now for DMC3, you don't need DLC to feel the emotional grasp of Vergil's role in the scene. Vergil's role in the final battle of DMC3 (to me, and probably a lot of other people who like to make mountains out of mole hills by reading in between the lines.)
Dante had just been through hell, had just saved the world, and was ready to finish his brother off. But in their battle with Arkham, traces of the brother that Dante once loved appeared, leading Dante to not be able to do it. So Vergil's role in the finale of DMC3 is more or less psychological torture for Dante. And in DMC3, Vergil did himself in by purposefully jumping into the demon land. Thus adding to the emotional pain for Dante.
Vergil even shows that he somewhat cares for his brother at the VERY END by warning Dante.
It's all played out very subtly, TOO SUBTLY in fact.
The flaw with this one is that you have to read in between the lines

So again 4.5


Dante's role in the scene in both games:
I would put Dante's different role in both DMC3 and DmC in the category of their respective games, but there is no point as the role is exactly the same. In both games,
the role of Dante in the scene is flip side to the role of DMC3 Vergil. He is in the middle of an emotional struggle due to having to battle his own brother, saving lethality as a last resort, both of the games execute this EXTREMELY well, and as much as I hate to admit it, DmC did it as good as DMC3, so they get the same rating of 4.7 of 5. 0.3 points deducted because both scenes should've been longer to let the emotion on Dante's part sink in to the player

Dante's final resort in DMC3:
There's a few seconds that make DMC3 take the cake for me.
Of course I'm talking about how even after landing the almost-finishing blow on Vergil, Dante is STILL trying to save him.
However, despite my personal love of this version of Vergil's death, due to DmC Dante's more brutal, do-what-you-have-to nature.
It does not give DMC3's ending an edge over DmC's


DmC:
In DmC, Dante's way of dealing with Vergil was more of a 'You leave me no choice' moment, it was designed to be a version that fit the rebooted character's personality. After constant offers made to make peace with Vergil, Dante realized his brother was too arrogant to accept defeat, and unlike the 'Sesshōmaru with ten times more badassery'
Vergil from DMC3 who already was a cruel killer with a possible redemption arc. Vergil of DmC hadn't really had his time to shine as the sadistic killer that the DMC3 version was. So as said before, they killed him and put him in hell so that we could see him on the path to having his DMC3 counterpart's personality.

Now we get to the role where I have only ONE positive thing to say for the DmC version. The deuteragonist's role post-Vergil death.

Lady's role in the post-Vergil death scene:
The thing I loved about Lady's role in the Vergil death scene compared to ms.Marysuewho'sactressmakesitwork, is that Lady's role actually MAKES sense in the scene, she had just finished crying over the death of a corrupted ex-loved one. She knows where Dante is coming from. And instead of just one line, she had actual DIALOGUE with Dante. She showed sympathy, and then reminded him that he can prevent it from happening to other families, that his purpose is to stop the tyranny of the demons.

Again, you have to read in between the lines, but not too much this time.
4.8 of 5

Kat's Role post-Vergil Death Scene:

It sucked because Kat is a lame mary-sue Damsel in Distress, but Sage Mears is both a good actress and a hot actress
3 of 5


In conclusion.

As said above, both games handled this very well, but I have to say, DMC3 takes the cake by just a smidge. Of course I can't leave without saying the following about the DmC Vergil Death sceneView attachment 929

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

You just opened Pandora's box good luck

 

[mrrandomlulz]

You just opened Pandora's box good luck

You've obviously forgotten the many, many, many times that I've opened Pandora's box on purpose on this site.

Either way, I actually showed both the pro's and con's of each version, and am completely open to debate, hence the name of the thread.

 

[Sunaka Marién]

I actually agree with you for the most part.

Personally I didn't need Downfall to already realize that Vergil wasn't just all about ruling the world, but that his intentions weren't as bad, but I guess that really depends on how you look at things.

The DMC3 version is really executed beautifully, for all the reasons you already listed, so I'm not going to elaborate on that.

As for DmC: Well, I guess it doesn't really come as a surprise that I prefer this version ;P So I'll elaborate on this one.

As I already stated, I didn't need Downfall to come to the conclusion that Vergil isn't all bad. For that reason alone this scene was a whole lot more emotional to me, as it made it seem like Vergil was, even if just a little, misunderstood and if the brothers had taken more time to discuss things and if Vergil would have just acknowledged Kat's work that tragedy could have been prevented. The fact that Dante and Vergil got along so well just a few hours ago made it even worse.
Something I also find important to mention is that when Dante snaps out of his Devil Trigger, realizing what he's doing, he actually helps Vergil up. He could have just let him lie there, but no, he helps him up, and those two hold onto each other for just a little longer than necessary, which, in my opinion really shows how much they care for and love eachother.
But the worst part by far was Vergil's "I loved you, brother" line. Kills me everytime. Just imagine how hard it must have been for Dante to hear that. And it actually shows: He reaches out for him. It's very subtle, and barely noticeable unless you're really paying attention, but just when Vergil said that line, Dante lets go of Kat's wrist and makes motion as if to reach out for Vergil, and withdraws his hand seemingly dissappointed and sad when Vergil disappears.

On the case of Kat: Wow there. I'm really not a fan of her, but she really ain't no Mary-Sue :/ Damsel in Distress, yeah, kinda, but a relatively good one, since she was at least important to the plot and the for their plan to succeed. That scene with her and Dante was simpler than the one with Lady and Dante in DMC3, but for me it was still almost as powerful. After all, she keeps Dante from breaking apart completely.

 

[Caiden]

Please don't. you are just asking for something completely unnecessary to breakout.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

I think your conclusion is fair; you gave equal consideration to both DMC3 and DmC's handling of the same scenarios.

People are bound to disagree, but it looks like you're more than prepared for that. Let's just hope that the debate remains civil.

...Though it may be naïve to entertain that thought. ^^;

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Oh snap, here we go...

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Oh snap, here we go...

Is anyone actually gonna reply to the thread itself instead of the hypothetical flame war it MIGHT cause?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Is anyone actually gonna reply to the thread itself instead of the hypothetical flame war it MIGHT cause?

I'd rather enjoy this burger I'm eating and wait to see.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

For the most part, you covered it. I can't really argue against something if I (mostly) agree with the points made. ^^;

 

[Chancey289]

I just prefer DmC's Vergil all the way because he's more of a character. More dynamic and has an actual personality.

DMC 3 Vergil couldn't fill an any more generic spot in an already cliche cast. Being that generic anime villain I've seen so many times. I like villains and Vergil is just a bad villain. He's boring, lame, and wears a stupid outfit. Was never really a fan of the guy. He lost his mother and became so much of a nut even Batman would be like, calm the f#ck down you sword loving weirdo.

DmC I can see Vergil has some layers. He's always had his ulterior motives in mind but, he does indeed care for his brother. He didn't want to fight Dante just as much as Dante didn't want to fight him but, they knew their particular convictions would never make them see eye to eye on it. So why waste time? That part where they were staring each other down was pretty badass.

On a side note, this makes it ever better and is just fantastic.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

I just prefer DmC's Vergil all the way because he's more of a character. More dynamic and has an actual personality.

I have to agree that yes, on the surface DmC Vergil appears to have more of a personality, more layers. However, I always get the impression DMC3 Vergil was intended to be more subtle in that regard. Like mrrandonlulz said, subtlety was something DMC3 may have used a little too much.

DMC 3 Vergil couldn't fill an any more generic spot in an already cliche cast. Being that generic anime villain I've seen so many times. I like villains and Vergil is just a bad villain. He's boring, lame, and wears a stupid outfit. Was never really a fan of the guy. He lost his mother and became so much of a nut even Batman would be like, calm the f#ck down you sword loving weirdo.

Most of what you bring up is pretty subjective, but I won't knock your opinion. Keep in mind though, he didn't become a "nut" just because of the loss of his mother. Bad as that was, he also spent a great deal of time as a child, alone, fighting off demons. I think (I can't remember the source) that he may have wound up in the Demon Realm for a great deal of that time, which really would contribute to the type of character he was, if they'd explained it better.

DmC I can see Vergil has some layers. He's always had his ulterior motives in mind but, he does indeed care for his brother. He didn't want to fight Dante just as much as Dante didn't want to fight him but, they knew their particular convictions would never make them see eye to eye on it. So why waste time? That part where they were staring each other down was pretty badass.

The same can still be said of DMC3 Vergil; subtle as the emotions were, it was clear that he cared for his brother, too.

 

[rocketvergil]

You just opened Pandora's box good luck

You are telling that to mrandom? he is like the loki of this forum.
This kid is just surrounded by controversy and I have to say he handles it quite well.

 

[berto]

Vie de Marli. dmc2 took place in vie de marli. not complicated.

as for the rest of it i don't fully agree but over all do. maybe i wouldn't personally put so much thought into the comparison but it's your thing so go at it.

 

[berto]

Vie de Marli. dmc2 took place in vie de marli. not complicated.

as for the rest of it i don't fully agree but over all do. maybe i wouldn't personally put so much thought into the comparison but it's your thing so go at it.

 

[Kam]

there's an old saying in storytelling: "show, don't tell"

it's mainly for this reason that my preference is for how DMC3 handled vergil's self exile over how DmC did it. In DmC, vergil makes his way to his sword, opens a portal, and tells dante to his face "I loved you, brother".

But compare this to DMC3's version, and ask yourself, is this not the exact same goodbye?

The little smile, the intentionally shallow cut, dante's fixation on his glove after virgil's fall... this is pretty much how vergil shows affection, and it's not lost on dante -- he keeps that sliced glove on his desk as a token from that point onward. Even the sleeve that vergil sliced off of dante's coat is left alone, never to be repaired. So many little things, shown (not told) to the player, all adding up to the same message, but requiring zero words.

DmC may have had superior motion and facial capture technology, but I feel like they wasted it by having all the characters narrate how they're feeling instead of acting their feelings out and letting the audience see it.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

there's an old saying in storytelling: "show, don't tell"

it's mainly for this reason that my preference is for how DMC3 handled vergil's self exile over how DmC did it. In DmC, vergil makes his way to his sword, opens a portal, and tells dante to his face "I loved you, brother".

But compare this to DMC3's version, and ask yourself, is this not the exact same goodbye?

The little smile, the intentionally shallow cut, dante's fixation on his glove after virgil's fall... this is pretty much how vergil shows affection, and it's not lost on dante -- he keeps that sliced glove on his desk as a token from that point onward. Even the sleeve that vergil sliced off of dante's coat is left alone, never to be repaired. So many little things, shown (not told) to the player, all adding up to the same message, but requiring zero words.

DmC may have had superior motion and facial capture technology, but I feel like they wasted it by having all the characters narrate how they're feeling instead of acting their feelings out and letting the audience see it.

First off; Dante didn't get his coat fixed because where are you gonna find a tailor during a demon invasion?

Secondly; that's subjective. Because with DMC3 in my opinion, all I could gather was that they met after a long time of seperation, fought once, fought twice, joined forces for a few seconds, then fought one last time. Vergil goes bye bye, and that's all.

With DmC, they met, they were allies, Vergil did bad, Dante doesn't trust him, Vergil did more bad, Dante still didn't trust him, they begin to develop a sort of bond, Dante begins to see him as a brother, Vergil reveals his world domination plan that Dante doesn't want, they fight, Vergil declared his hatred for Dante, and leaves out of revenge.

It all depends on the fan and how they see it.

 

[The Final Offer]

(A boatload of my plus friends are playing DmC on PSN. I sent them invites for games like Last of Us, GoW Ascension, DBZ Battle of Z, Battlefield, COD, Max Anarchy, Tekken, Soul Caliber, etc. NONE of them are budging. They're hooked! )​

This is the way I see things when I combine the comic with the game with the expansion.

-You see, Vergil and Dante were about to fight before Mundus. But Vergil caved, because he needed Dante.

-Vergil is obsessed with dethroning Mundus. He wants to rule. His entire life after the comic was to rule. If anyone remembers the ending of the comic like I do, this is something of a hero's good intentions backfiring in the most epic way possible.

"But we can't save her.."

"Apart from the fact that you're my brother, you are the key to destroying Mundus!" Vergil masked his villainy only slightly. This is a big ! for gamers everywhere.

"We have access to Mundus's unborn child! This is exactly what we need to get him out of his lair!"

-To those who won't ever read the comic. Vergil was on the good side whole-heartedly. What we're seeing in DmC is how screwed up his last move in the comic made him. Vergil's Downfall (Spoilers) is showing you the complete obliteration of a hero. The end of Vergil's Downfall would be the second time Vergil has fallen to his own powers.

-Now, here's the best part of DmC's Vergil to me. He was not always evil like that. He felt for human beings (comic). but he used his devil trigger several times. DT in DmC taxes the user's humanity; It's empowering the demonic energy to take over. In the comic, Vergil purified a portion of Limbo and in DmC you see this portion known as the Lost City. Vergil was not only looking out for mankind, he was looking out for angels as well. He didn't catch wind of the strain of DT until Kat told him. In which, by the end of the comic, I believe he tried his best to erase what the DT had done. Like a reset button. No telling how many times he's used it before then.

-In short, Vergil's story was a tragedy. The end result is a hero being forced into villainy due to relying on his own powers to save everything.​

 

[AcidX_Y]

Snip

Where do you find the comics?

 

[The Final Offer]

Where do you find the comics?

www.comixology.com

Eight dollars for both issues.