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DmC Intellectual Discussion

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Railazel

Well-known Member
Considering that DmC hasn't left much of a long- lasting impression that our little topic for it here is filled with short- lived discussions that don't really lead to anything substantial, I decided to attempt to produce a detailed discussion on the game here.

The game itself may not be all that deep but it touches on a fair amount of issues that I think require an in- depth looking into in order to bring out the game's true value. So, to start, I would like to talk about the game's ending, how it may dictate the city's future, and what it says about the price of freedom and Structure vs Anarchy.

The depiction of the ending, naturally, makes it seem that the state of the city was good by the end of the game. Mundus is no longer in control and the humans are now aware of the demons. However, a second look gives a much gruesome picture. As a result of humans now being aware and no one managing Limbo, the barrier between humans and demons has now been lifted. Thanks to Dante killing Bob Barbas and, basically, the system of Raptor News as a whole, CCTVs are now down. And because Mundus is now dead, the economy may decline. Realistically, the city is facing a very grim future.

However, was it worth the freedom obtained for the humans? While it is true that when a slave leaves his/her master's home, they must fend for themselves, but is it possible for all of humankind (or rather just in the city) to recover from this? The city is in shambles and demons are now roaming the streets. Should the slave be set free if his/her death was certain?

Even more so, is this not the natural result of anarchy? While under Mundus' rule, the humans were being deceived out their homes, depleted of their health, and were being spiritually tormented but was the fruits of Dante's labor leaving them any better off? Is it better because they now know the truth?

Any thoughts?
 
Railazel said:
Considering that DmC hasn't left much of a long- lasting impression that our little topic for it here is filled with short- lived discussions that don't really lead to anything substantial, I decided to attempt to produce a detailed discussion on the game here.

The game itself may not be all that deep but it touches on a fair amount of issues that I think require an in- depth looking into in order to bring out the game's true value. So, to start, I would like to talk about the game's ending, how it may dictate the city's future, and what it says about the price of freedom and Structure vs Anarchy.

The depiction of the ending, naturally, makes it seem that the state of the city was good by the end of the game. Mundus is no longer in control and the humans are now aware of the demons. However, a second look gives a much gruesome picture. As a result of humans now being aware and no one managing Limbo, the barrier between humans and demons has now been lifted. Thanks to Dante killing Bob Barbas and, basically, the system of Raptor News as a whole, CCTVs are now down. And because Mundus is now dead, the economy may decline. Realistically, the city is facing a very grim future.

However, was it worth the freedom obtained for the humans? While it is true that when a slave leaves his/her master's home, they must fend for themselves, but is it possible for all of humankind (or rather just in the city) to recover from this? The city is in shambles and demons are now roaming the streets. Should the slave be set free if his/her death was certain?

Even more so, is this not the natural result of anarchy? While under Mundus' rule, the humans were being deceived out their homes, depleted of their health, and were being spiritually tormented but was the fruits of Dante's labor leaving them any better off? Is it better because they now know the truth?

Any thoughts?
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I think in the long run, humans are better off. This is how we evolve. This is how we thrive. For six million years, we have reigned supreme on this world. We turned Natures biggest and baddest into housepets or made them extinct. We set off fission bombs in our own atmosphere. We spent millennia after millennia using each other as training dummies for the day when a real enemy, an imhuman one would appear. We nailed our god to a stick and stabbed him with a spear!
You. Don't. ****. With. Humanity!
 
Stuff always gets worse before it gets better. The point is that once all the dust settles humans will be better off. Yes, many will die in the initial conflict, but freedom isn't free after all.

However, I would like a sequel where the demons have pretty much been defeated, but there are still attacks here and there. The catch is that the world is in shambles afterward and many people are questioning the same thing you are. Was it worth it? Are the people really better off? Dante would also be older and more hardened after having to fight demons for so long. (Though he'd still be an ass. You can't have a Dante, any Dante, that isn't some level of an ass. :lol:)

Maybe Dante could be faced with guilt. He does say at the end of DmC that the world is in his protection. Perhaps he feels guilty about the state the world's in. He feels like he should of done more. The game could also have Vergil come back as a shining beacon of hope for the people. Have Dante be casted as the villain by the people because many of them are desperate and think Vergil sounds great where Dante knows he isn't.

I think a sequel exploring these themes would be really cool. Assuming it had better writing, I might even consider getting it. ^_^
 
TerrorA said:
We nailed our god to a stick and stabbed him with a spear!
Click to expand...

About this last statement, you do realize he allowed us to do that, right? Even then, he didn't stay dead. He just came right back up after a couple of days and went back home.

And while I admire your optimism, once we create a self- aware robot, we're screwed.

Back on- topic, we aren't exactly prepared for what has happened to us. I'm pretty sure the demons will either regain control or tear us all apart seeing as how we've been their prey for quite some time now.

Meg said:
Stuff always gets worse before it gets better. The point is that once all the dust settles humans will be better off. Yes, many will die in the initial conflict, but freedom isn't free after all.

However, I would like a sequel where the demons have pretty much been defeated, but there are still attacks here and there. The catch is that the world is in shambles afterward and many people are questioning the same thing you are. Was it worth it? Are the people really better off? Dante would also be older and more hardened after having to fight demons for so long. (Though he'd still be an ass. You can't have a Dante, any Dante, that isn't some level of an ass. :lol:)

Maybe Dante could be faced with guilt. He does say at the end of DmC that the world is in his protection. Perhaps he feels guilty about the state the world's in. He feels like he should of done more. The game could also have Vergil come back as a shining beacon of hope for the people. Have Dante be casted as the villain by the people because many of them are desperate and think Vergil sounds great where Dante knows he isn't.

I think a sequel exploring these themes would be really cool. Assuming it had better writing, I might even consider getting it. ^_^
Click to expand...

I agree, it was the same thing slaves went through after they were freed. Things ended up getting even worse for us.
 
the only reason things got worse for us is because dante didn't want vergil to turn into mundus. if he didn't rebel the demons would have been eradicated and dante and vergil would have ruled, creating structure.
 
TerrorA said:
Most people would rather die on their feet then live on their knees.
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as much as i hate to say it, humans aren't the most of intelligent species. so you would crumble and fall if you had freedom. you aren't ready for it yet. Maybe in the future. but for now, free will is an illusion that could kill you
 
Jak said:
as much as i hate to say it, humans aren't the most of intelligent species. so you would crumble and fall if you had freedom. you aren't ready for it yet. Maybe in the future. but for now, free will is an illusion that could kill you
Click to expand...
No. A person is smart. All people are highly intelligent in different ways. Now, as a group people can be pretty stupid.

Just wanted to make that correction. XD

Carry on. XD
 
Jak said:
as much as i hate to say it, humans aren't the most of intelligent species. so you would crumble and fall if you had freedom. you aren't ready for it yet. Maybe in the future. but for now, free will is an illusion that could kill you
Click to expand...

That's where you're wrong. We carve our own fate in this world, one hand in front of the other. With the dreams of the past, and the hopes of the future to guide us, We ascend beyond our limits.
 
Meg said:
No. A person is smart. All people are highly intelligent in different ways. Now, as a group people can be pretty stupid.

Just wanted to make that correction. XD

Carry on. XD
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sorry if i sound insulting. its just, it seems to me that the people who are actually intelligent are left on the back burner and the people controlled by a vise that will not only destroy themselves but others around them are put into power. causing everybody to suffer. and say a rebellion against the gov't comes to breathe fresh air to humanity. whose to say that decades down the line a child of that once noble leader becomes a tyrant. or even if the noble leader themselves becomes a tyrant. it is basic human nature to look after one's self then the needs of others come first. my apologize for being a cynic but based off of my observations, the past keeps repeating itself.
 
TerrorA said:
That's where you're wrong. We carve our own fate in this world, one hand in front of the other. With the dreams of the past, and the hopes of the future to guide us, We ascend beyond our limits.
Click to expand...

i get that. i really do. and i'm all for learning from mistakes and trying to turn that mishap into something beautiful for the rest of the world. but after years of seeing the same things happen, cynicism sets in. as for the "ascending beyond our limits" part, who ever said anything about limits? humanity is capable of so much. i just don't want to have my hopes built up after seeing so much greatness, to see it all come crashing down by the actions of a few.
 
Jak said:
i get that. i really do. and i'm all for learning from mistakes and trying to turn that mishap into something beautiful for the rest of the world. but after years of seeing the same things happen, cynicism sets in. as for the "ascending beyond our limits" part, who ever said anything about limits? humanity is capable of so much. i just don't want to have my hopes built up after seeing so much greatness, to see it all come crashing down by the actions of a few.
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I feel that. But I have two creeds that I live by. The one that pertains to this conversation is "To give in to despair, to let the fools of this world break your spirit, is the same as allowing them to win. Become a light in the darkness, to drive away the shadows of ignorance. Become the shadow in the sun of hate, to cool of your brothers when they feel it's burn"
 
TerrorA said:
I feel that. But I have two creeds that I live by. The one that pertains to this conversation is "To give in to despair, to let the fools of this world break your spirit, is the same as allowing them to win. Become a light in the darkness, to drive away the shadows of ignorance. Become the shadow in the sun of hate, to cool of your brothers when they feel it's burn"
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thank you. the faith in your race is very admirable and inspiring.
 
I think in DmC's case, freedom was paid with a heavy price but why was the price so high in the first place? Could all of this have been avoided? I personally believe so. I believe that a subtle revolution is more effective than a violent rebellion. Maybe instead of tearing down the structure that was set in Limbo City, Vergil and The Order should've tried to change it. For example, pulling strings so that certain figures are elected into various offices, and using their influence to battle the subliminal messaging created by Malice. By doing so, Mundus would have his power lowered as economic regulation would be enforced and Bob Barbas would have competition as other news networks come up.
 
TerrorA said:
That's where you're wrong. We carve our own fate in this world, one hand in front of the other. With the dreams of the past, and the hopes of the future to guide us, We ascend beyond our limits.
Click to expand...
There are times in which I have very little faith in humanity's capacity to ascend beyond its limits... It took millennia for us to get to the point we are now and even now things are far from perfect, in some cases I'd say far from good.:/

Especially in cases of immediate danger (like one with demons roaming free), humans tend to nurture their worst instincts: violence, the desire to prevail over others, little respect for life and freedom.
I think that humans have both the potentiality to become respectful beings or act on their worst instincts... we can have a sample of this even on this forum and more generally the net (flamewars and so on). We cannot know what direction they will take in this case, but my fear is that, if humans have to face the menace of demons and fight them back, a dangerous situation like this is not leading to good developments, at least at first. It may very well be possible that, once the immediate dangers are dealt with, in time (but, like, years... decades) mankind will go down a peaceful road again (I still doubt it because I'm quite the pessimist, but this is me).

As you may have noticed, I'm implying in general that after Mundus's fall things are likely to become quite problematic: imo it would be naive to think that humans could simply kill off all demons like Bob Barbas and just carry on doing what they had been doing so far. Since many important people who had control over the politics and the media are likely to be revealed as demons or demon collaborators, it's most probable that humans lose faith in the institutions that has guided them so far. Moreover, they are facing a great immediate danger: the deomns that are now roaming free everywhere since Limbo collapsed. They will hae to fight, and they will have to do it almost by themselves: Dante, as much as he wants to protect humans, is not ubiquituous....
Given all those considerations, I doubt things would get to normal once more: I'm imagining an apocalyptic scenario in which humans will have to reorganize and create new communities. And this doesn't always end well, I fear...


(Yeah, I'm a pessimist and I totally side with Vergil: we need guidance. But That's just me. >_< )

Meg said:
No. A person is smart. All people are highly intelligent in different ways. Now, as a group people can be pretty stupid.
Click to expand...
And this. Especially this. I don't know how in hell and heaven it's possible that when there are a lot of people together their brains do not stack, but do the opposite.>_<
 
Whether it was because Kat told Dante the truth, or Vergils manipulation, or for the simple fact that Mundus killed his mother, Dante was going to face Mundus at some point and i don't think Dante ever thought about what was to come after the fact.

He certainly seems like he has a strong focus at the end of the game, but at the same time, he is lost. He doenst know what he is and he doesn't know what will become of him.

I always thought Dante possessed a strong Demonic side and Vergil had the Angelic side, and by the end of the game, both characters where shown what they could be when the other side takes over. Dante became a "man" and stood up for what he believes in and Vergil turned down the same road Dante took when he was growing up. -if you haven't played VD and you enjoyed DmC, its worth the buy-

As for the rest of the world having the veil lifted and chaos spreading, thats just life.

If there is another game, i would like some kind of resistance formed of demon hunters (Lady/Lucia/Nero...or whoever) who actually want to apprehend Dante. I do like what Meg mentioned about Vergil being a savior though, that would be very cool to see play out as well.
 
Well, people are better off when they take care of themselves. If that's good enough for Ayn Rand, it's good enough for me.
 
Dante wasn't fighting for anarchy, he was fighting for liberation and that does make us better off.

Humans are fascinating and while hope for humanity is wearing thin for all the negative nancys out there, I'd like for them to take a look at what we've accomplished already as a species. Sure in DmC the stable foundation the world was existing on has been shaken and it will take time to build up but, they are capable of building it up. They would.

We wouldn't thrive if we were constantly being babysat.
 
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