Dial- A- Combo vs. Free- Form Combat

[Railazel]

Being a member of this forum for a good long while, I have observed the overwhelming popularity of Free- Form combat which is to be expected of a site whose dedication is to a game with free- form combat in it. However, with this love for free- form, Dial- A- Combo is severely frowned upon. It has been seen as being very limiting compared to free- form which is highly inaccurate.

1. People generally have a bad understanding of what the term "dial- a- combo" actually refers to. Specifically for our site, people think it means "an input sequence to do a specific action" such as Triangle, Circle to do a Juggle attack. However, the term just simply refers to a chain of inputs to do anything especially a chain attack. Dial- a- combos are the basis of mechanics like buffering where the player can do the entire input sequence faster than the actual animation.

2. The difference between free- form and dial- a- combo is that free- form has dedicated buttons or combination of buttons for a particular action where as dial- a- combo has a dedicated input sequence. People would see the input sequence as unnecessary where a simple button would suffice. However, as the number of attacks and combos increases, one button wouldn't suffice and other mechanics such as timing and the addition of other buttons would be needed. Some people see that as the free- form system becoming unnecessarily complex where the dial- a- combo would simply have a number of combos for those same attacks.

3. There's no substantial evidence that either one works any better than the other. It all seems to be a matter of how the developers execute either system.

So, my question here is how exactly is one any better than the other if not as a matter of preference and/or personal favoritism?

 

[Demi-fiend]

Free form. All the time, without exception.

I can launch an enemy with free form on the first move. With canned combos, I have to press a button first because it's the only way to be able to do so.
And precious fractions of a second count in action games.

 

[Stylish Nero]

How about a combination of both?.....if that is even possible.

Don't really care? but free form since Dial-A-Combo are everywhere.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Free-form of course. Especially for hack n' slash games.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

1. People generally have a bad understanding of what the term "dial- a- combo" actually refers to. Specifically for our site, people think it means "an input sequence to do a specific action" such as Triangle, Circle to do a Juggle attack. However, the term just simply refers to a chain of inputs to do anything especially a chain attack. Dial- a- combos are the basis of mechanics like buffering where the player can do the entire input sequence faster than the actual animation.

No...not really. Dial-a-combo is inputting a specific sequence of buttons for different outcomes, but those specific outcomes can only be achieved by that one specific combo, eg inputting Square>Square>Triangle will always yield the same final effect. Ninja Gaiden is a perfect example of dial-a-combo, like Izuna Drop, one of Ryu's most powerful skills which always ends with him grabbing the enemy and spiraling their head into the ground. Always. It's the only way to perform Izuna Drop.

Alternatively, a game like DmC, skills are made as self-contained in their inputs as possible. I can High Time whenever I want, at any time during a Death Coil combo. I can Trillion Stab any time I want, too. That freedom is extremely enticing to a lot of people because it doesn't force the player to wholly commit to the combo.

It's not that dial-a-combo is bad, it just doesn't offer the same kind of freedom than a free-form system can.

It's the difference between why I love fighters like BlazBlue, and I'm not too keen on games like Tekken.

3. There's no substantial evidence that either one works any better than the other. It all seems to be a matter of how the developers execute either system.

So, my question here is how exactly is one any better than the other if not as a matter of preference and/or personal favoritism?

Free-form offers a lot more tactical freedom and a breadth of creativity that is difficult to get out of dial-a-combo by sheer virtue of how the mechanics work. Free-form lets you alter and then return to a combo for specific effects whenever you like and when circumstances require it. The same cannot be done with dial-a-combo.

It's not that one is better because it's favored, it's that one is favored because it is mechanically better. No different than liking a platformer that uses Mario's trajectory altering jump mechanics as opposed to Castelvania's forcing you to buy a f#ckin' engagement ring for your jump arc.

How about a combination of both?.....if that is even possible

I don't think that can work >.<

 

[Stylish Nero]

No...not really. Dial-a-combo is inputting a specific sequence of buttons for different outcomes, but those specific outcomes can only be achieved by that one specific combo, eg inputting Square>Square>Triangle will always yield the same final effect. Ninja Gaiden is a perfect example of dial-a-combo, like Izuna Drop, one of Ryu's most powerful skills which always ends with him grabbing the enemy and spiraling their head into the ground. Always. It's the only way to perform Izuna Drop.

Alternatively, a game like DmC, skills are made as self-contained in their inputs as possible. I can High Time whenever I want, at any time during a Death Coil combo. I can Trillion Stab any time I want, too. That freedom is extremely enticing to a lot of people because it doesn't force the player to wholly commit to the combo.

It's not that dial-a-combo is bad, it just doesn't offer the same kind of freedom than a free-form system can.

It's the difference between why I love fighters like BlazBlue, and I'm not too keen on games like Tekken.



Free-form offers a lot more tactical freedom and a breadth of creativity that is difficult to get out of dial-a-combo by sheer virtue of how the mechanics work. Free-form lets you alter and then return to a combo for specific effects whenever you like and when circumstances require it. The same cannot be done with dial-a-combo.

It's not that one is better because it's favored, it's that one is favored because it is mechanically better. No different than liking a platformer that uses Mario's trajectory altering jump mechanics as opposed to Castelvania's forcing you to buy a f#ckin' engagement ring for your jump arc.



I don't think that can work >.<

Bayonetta is close considering it has set combo chains and input attacks which can cancel said set combo chains and alter the combo chain at will.

Also the Tekken and Blazblue comparison isn't a very good one considering one is a 3D fighter that uses 3D fighting mechanics and the other is a 2D one that uses 2D fighting mechanics and the 2 are very different on themselves. I never played Blazblue. Plus Tekken isn't a Dial-A-Combo type of game perhaps the occasional combo/move that requires a small combo input to pull off a quick punch to kick combo but a majority of the movesets are usually quick command inputs but I sure wouldn't call it free form though. Perhaps a mixture in the two but you're probably referring to the grab chaining moves with characters like the Kings or the William Sisters where you need to press like 10 button combinations to execute a grab and continue the grab into a follow up grab or better yet a grab combo.

A true example of a dial-a-combo in fighting games are Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive although people praise Dead or Alive for being a rather intuitive and innovative fighter and its very dial-a-combo heavy although that might be why its so damn easy to chain combos and come up with creative combo chains compared to the likes of Tekken and Soul Calibur that requires mastering the timing and efficiency of each attacks.

Dead or Alive is essentially if Ninja Gaiden became a fighting game and it works so well too.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Bayonetta is close considering it has set combo chains and input attacks which can cancel said set combo chains and alter the combo chain at will.

Yeah, it's the one that transcends dial-a-combo in a several ways, but still doesn't end up being exactly like Devil May Cry.

Also the Tekken and Blazblue comparison isn't a very good one considering one is a 3D fighter that uses 3D fighting mechanics and the other is a 2D one that uses 2D fighting mechanics and the 2 are very different on themselves.

Eh, whenever I looked at movelists in Tekken they always seemed to be a combination of input keys, rather than this input does this one move (eg 236+P for Hadouken). Granted, I haven't paid a lot of attention to Tekken because I just don't care for it.

people praise Dead or Alive for being a rather intuitive and innovative fighter and its very dial-a-combo heavy

Methinks it gathers some praise in its own right for being a fighter that emphasizes defensive options like guards and counters just as much as it does offensive options, which is rather different from most other fighters, which don't have much of a core defense mechanic in place beyond regular blocking, while counters are usually reserved for a character archetype (BlazBlue's Hakumen) or skills given to certain characters.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Yeah, it's the one that transcends dial-a-combo in a several ways, but still doesn't end up being exactly like Devil May Cry.



Eh, whenever I looked at movelists in Tekken they always seemed to be a combination of input keys, rather than this input does this one move (eg 236+P for Hadouken). Granted, I haven't paid a lot of attention to Tekken because I just don't care for it.



Methinks it gathers some praise in its own right for being a fighter that emphasizes defensive options like guards and counters just as much as it does offensive options, which is rather different from most other fighters, which don't have much of a core defense mechanic in place beyond regular blocking, while counters are usually reserved for a character archetype (BlazBlue's Hakumen) or skills given to certain characters.

That aspect on DOA is true. I normally hate buttons dedicated to guarding in fighting games but I love it in DOA and could tolerate it in Soul Calibur (with the right button mapping although the controls/mechanics could use a bit more tweaking). Not only that throws are mapped to one button and you can pull off double the amount of throws compared to Tekken/Soul Calibur which uses 2 button combinations for throws and has 2 ways to throws and left/right throws (something DOA lacked) and the fact that DOA easily implements throws and moves that requires the use of the walls, ceilings, and the stage environment making a more dynamic and fast paced combat system. Plus DOA maps your attack options to only 2 attacks (punch and kick) and 2 buttons Y/triangle & B/O and makes memorizing attacks and combos quite more easily at the cost of making it very dial-a-combo heavy compared to other fighters but it (maybe to me) makes pull off combos all the easier where pressing YYYYY could have the same effect of chaining Low Y, Mid B, Forward X, Y, Y+X in a combo in Tekken where pressing Y over again could just repeat the same jab animation.

Also Tekken has moves like 236 + atk and simple input combinations like Lar's Rising Kick or a majority of Feng's moveset. I have Tag 2 and its more free form than Dial-A-Combo....with Dial-A-Combo or better yet set combo chaining principles in it (like being able to pull off a certain move you need to pull off this move first which is no different than needing to pull off Prop to pull of Shredder or needing to first perform Stinger if you want to perform Trillion Stabs) or is more scripted and structured so you can't chain any possible move together prevent things from going out of control and making an unbalanced fighter.

That is the one thing about fighters compared to hack and slash's s which are single player or lack versus modes. They need to make sure the combat system is balanced and fair and not have a DMC3/DMC4/DmC styled fighting game.

If a action game like Devil May Cry is buggy or filled with unwanted or unexpected glitches and exploits that could be a good thing since you can get or make use such glitches/exploits to make the game more enjoyable and is how staple mechanics like Jump Cancel and Double Charge Canceling can be born but if a fighting game gets any well.............that is a huge problem. MvC3 which is probably the ultimate definition of a free form combat system in a fighter is still to this full of exploits and balance issues.

 

[Railazel]

With canned combos, I have to press a button first before being able to do so because it's the only way to do so.

A free- form system is far more flexible when it comes to chaining attacks together.
Lets say the starting attack in a 21Hit combo is a kick.
Okay after that 1st kick the player can follow up with any & all attacks to reach that 21Hit combo.

dial- a- combo has a set combination of attacks to reach that 21Hit combo.
If that 1st attack is a kick, then the next attack has to be a specific attack in order to follow up & reach that 21Hit combo.

That's not true. Unless there's a specific 21- hit combo in the system, Dial- a- combo is versatile enough that you don't do the same multi- hit combo the same way unless you're doing that one specific combo. For example, if you're playing Pixel May Cry, you juggle by pressing J, I on your keyboard. However, to do a whole 100- hit combo requires versatility on your part.

And if a player knows that 21Hit dial- a- combo they can easily put together a defense based on the pattern whereas a free- form system increases the difficulty in predicting each & every attack in that 21Hit.

Any person who plays Tekken or Mortal Kombat knows that this isn't true. You have to have all the combos and their animations memorized for that to be so.

No...not really. Dial-a-combo is inputting a specific sequence of buttons for different outcomes, but those specific outcomes can only be achieved by that one specific combo, eg inputting Square>Square>Triangle will always yield the same final effect.

But, by that definition, the DMC series has had a long history of being dial- a- combo system. In DMC 3, Triangle, Triangle, Triangle will always yield the same effect. Triangle, Triangle, pause, Triangle, Triangle will always yield the same effect. That's why a dial- a- combo system is defined as just a sequence of inputs that disregard timing otherwise games like DMC which people regard as free- form would be under the category of dial- a- combo because its input sequences only yield one result.

Alternatively, a game like DmC, skills are made as self-contained in their inputs as possible. I can High Time whenever I want, at any time during a Death Coil combo. I can Trillion Stab any time I want, too. That freedom is extremely enticing to a lot of people because it doesn't force the player to wholly commit to the combo.

It's not that dial-a-combo is bad, it just doesn't offer the same kind of freedom than a free-form system can.

But that's the source of me not understanding the preference. The freedom in free- form can be found in dial- a- combo, as games like Bayonetta have demonstrated. So, I don't really see why one has any real advantage over the other. Take the Trillion Stabs example, that still requires a input sequence (Double tap, triangle). It is true that you can do it whenever you want but then that's no different than me saying I can do a juggle in another game just from pressing Triangle, Circle very quickly.

Granted, I haven't paid a lot of attention to Tekken because I just don't care for it.

Tekken has a bad habit of having input strings that are unnecessarily long and hard to memorize so people tend to use it as a bad example of dial- a- combo.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

Depends on the game I like both but prefer freeform

 

[TWOxACROSS]

If a action game like Devil May Cry is buggy or filled with unwanted or unexpected glitches and exploits that could be a good thing since you can get or make use such glitches/exploits to make the game more enjoyable and is how staple mechanics like Jump Cancel and Double Charge Canceling can be born but if a fighting game gets any well.............that is a huge problem.

I think that becomes a point of one being a single player experience that emphasizes your character being able to overcome battles, while character balance needs to be taken into consideration with fighters. Except for those boss characters, because apparently f#ck the balance at that point...

But, by that definition, the DMC series has had a long history of being dial- a- combo system. In DMC 3, Triangle, Triangle, Triangle will always yield the same effect. Triangle, Triangle, pause, Triangle, Triangle will always yield the same effect. That's why a dial- a- combo system is defined as just a sequence of inputs that disregard timing otherwise games like DMC which people regard as free- form would be under the category of dial- a- combo because its input sequences only yield one result.

No, because the freedom lies in being able to do something else at any point during a combo, that's where the "free-form" comes from. You're getting too hung up on the idea that just because they both have a a "preset combo" they're a lot alike, when that's only the springboard both systems use to go into entirely different mechanics.

In DmC, Hacker and Death Coil are not preset combos like in a dial-a-combo system. They both use the similarity of an input causing a specific effect, but in DmC, me hitting Circle at anytime during Death Coil will have me do High Time, always. In a dial-a-combo system, inputting Circle during a Triangle string would cause a completely different effect depending on when in the combo I hit Circle. Take Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks - a different one will be performed depending on the inputs used.

That's where the freedom lies - me knowing that Circle will always yield the same effects no matter when I do it.

But that's the source of me not understanding the preference. The freedom in free- form can be found in dial- a- combo, as games like Bayonetta have demonstrated. So, I don't really see why one has any real advantage over the other. Take the Trillion Stabs example, that still requires a input sequence (Double tap, triangle). It is true that you can do it whenever you want but then that's no different than me saying I can do a juggle in another game just from pressing Triangle, Circle very quickly.

For a moment, let's make on thing extremely clear - the number of inputs don't matter for being able to use one ability. Stinger or Trillion Stabs requiring a multi-command input for its use is not the same as what we're talking about. When we say "combo", we explicitly mean the number of steps into the attack combo. It's not the "button combination", it's the exact number of steps required for the specific effect. Again, take Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves - you can only get the stomping heel from above if you input a Kick after the correct number of Punches. Or, take Ninja Gaiden, and how if I want to do Izuna Drop, I have to input the right keys in the specific steps.

And in regards to the topic - can you input that "Triangle Circle" at any time during a combo? No. You can't put it in at the middle or end of a combo like I could Trillion Stabs or High Time or whatever else. It needs to be at the start of a combo, as it needs to be a brand new combo. That is where you're losing freedom, which is what so many covet in a free-form combo system.

Bayonetta gets a special pass because it transcends its dial-a-combo basics, but make no mistake, that makes it the exception alongside other dial-a-combo games like Ninja Gaiden or God of War. Even then Bayonetta still uses dial-a-combo at its core.

 

[Stylish Nero]

I think that becomes a point of one being a single player experience that emphasizes your character being able to overcome battles, while character balance needs to be taken into consideration with fighters. Except for those boss characters, because apparently f#ck the balance at that point...



No, because the freedom lies in being able to do something else at any point during a combo, that's where the "free-form" comes from. You're getting too hung up on the idea that just because they both have a a "preset combo" they're a lot alike, when that's only the springboard both systems use to go into entirely different mechanics.

In DmC, Hacker and Death Coil are not preset combos like in a dial-a-combo system. They both use the similarity of an input causing a specific effect, but in DmC, me hitting Circle at anytime during Death Coil will have me do High Time, always. In a dial-a-combo system, inputting Circle during a Triangle string would cause a completely different effect depending on when in the combo I hit Circle. Take Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks - a different one will be performed depending on the inputs used.

That's where the freedom lies - me knowing that Circle will always yield the same effects no matter when I do it.



For a moment, let's make on thing extremely clear - the number of inputs don't matter for being able to use one ability. Stinger or Trillion Stabs requiring a multi-command input for its use is not the same as what we're talking about. When we say "combo", we explicitly mean the number of steps into the attack combo. It's not the "button combination", it's the exact number of steps required for the specific effect. Again, take Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves - you can only get the stomping heel from above if you input a Kick after the correct number of Punches. Or, take Ninja Gaiden, and how if I want to do Izuna Drop, I have to input the right keys in the specific steps.

And in regards to the topic - can you input that "Triangle Circle" at any time during a combo? No. You can't put it in at the middle or end of a combo like I could Trillion Stabs or High Time or whatever else. It needs to be at the start of a combo, as it needs to be a brand new combo. That is where you're losing freedom, which is what so many covet in a free-form combo system.

Bayonetta gets a special pass because it transcends its dial-a-combo basics, but make no mistake, that makes it the exception alongside other dial-a-combo games like Ninja Gaiden or God of War. Even then Bayonetta still uses dial-a-combo at its core.

Actually it could be possible to cancel into a different input/attack or combo in the middle of a set combo chain by using cancels or having a set cancel system that can cancel you're combo and input the Triangle Circle combo (Ninja Gaiden does this with shuriken cancels and a game using DMC4's Guard Cancel mechanics can easily stop/cancel a combo to chain in a different attack sequence).

One benefit that Dial-A-Combo has over Free Form is the fact you can create a large diversity of movesets and combos/attacks versus free form which grants the player a limiting moveset of command inputs and simple combos whereas Dial-A-Combo can create a larger moveset due to having more combinations of buttons to use.

Based on what I've seen most players prefer Dial-A-Combo mechanics (one reason why a game like God of War can outsell DMC or the fact most designers use a Dial-A-Combo system over a free form one and the only games that uses the Free Form system I can think of are the Devil May Cry series and the Sengoku Basara series every other action/hack n slash game uses a Dial-A-Combo system) due to how much of a larger moveset it can grant you and how easy it is to drop into the game and memorize some simple combos to start chaining a long and sweet combo chain with just one weapon quite easily.

However, its not the basics of the 2 system but how the devs develop or integrate them.

With DmC each individual weapon they're pretty standard on their own but being able to seamlessly switch between all 8/9 weapons and incorporate their use and techniques so well together can create a larger end and deeper combos but that in its own require memorizing and incorporating more button sequences such as having to know when to hold the triggers, when to press the d-pad, and what not to get the effect you want to achieve. I guess that is why its free form since you can form your own combos.

Sh*t I accidentally deleted this long post I had and is too lazy to re-type so I'll just wrap this up.

Dial-A-Combo don't really grant the player such easy weapon switching and forming combos via your weapons where Free Form grants better access or use of your individual weapons in a quick and creative mixing system to create a diverse combo where Dial-A-Combo grants more set combinations and attack you can pull off wit just simple button combinations.

So Free Form grants more freedom at the cost at creating a rather hard system to grasp but Dial-A-Combo grants more versatility and accessibility.

Going back to my Tekken and DOA example due to DOA Dial-A-Combo system its quite easy to pull off combos in DOA vs Tekken which focuses on chaining together individual attacks and proper timing to know when to use certain moves to keep the juggle going where in DOA its mostly PPPPP, PKPPP, KPK, K+PKK, etc.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Actually it could be possible to cancel into a different input/attack or combo in the middle of a set combo chain by using cancels or having a set cancel system that can cancel you're combo and input the Triangle Circle combo (Ninja Gaiden does this with shuriken cancels and a game using DMC4's Guard Cancel mechanics can easily stop/cancel a combo to chain in a different attack sequence).

See, and that's nice, but it's an aside to the mechanic to modify its flow, much like Bayonetta's cancels. It's not really a core part of the system, but it's wholly welcome. It's different, though, from the free-form system like DmC uses, because it still offers more freedom, and I can endlessly string anything together without fear of the game not liking where I did an input and forcing me to drop the combo.

 

[OppressedWriter]

See, and that's nice, but it's an aside to the mechanic to modify its flow, much like Bayonetta's cancels. It's not really a core part of the system, but it's wholly welcome. It's different, though, from the free-form system like DmC uses, because it still offers more freedom, and I can endlessly string anything together without fear of the game not liking where I did an input and forcing me to drop the combo.

On a side note, I do love how smoothly so many different attacks can be chained into each other, the animation in DmC is pretty stellar in that regard.

 

[Stylish Nero]

See, and that's nice, but it's an aside to the mechanic to modify its flow, much like Bayonetta's cancels. It's not really a core part of the system, but it's wholly welcome. It's different, though, from the free-form system like DmC uses, because it still offers more freedom, and I can endlessly string anything together without fear of the game not liking where I did an input and forcing me to drop the combo.

Free Form and Dial-A-Combo are just classifications that are used to classify how the basic levels of the combat system is. The way the mechanics flow are dependent on how the developers integrate or design them.

Plus I look at Bayonetta as if DMC1 used the B/O button for another attack button that can be used for combos rather than an independent attack button (style/launcher/etc).

I do see your point in more freedom.......BUTT....it comes down to how the systems, mechanics, and attacks are integrated into the overall combat system.

I prefer Free Form myself but I don't see DMC (any of the games) as the ideal system I've been wanting for years. Hopefully that game will come or else I'll have to make it....sort of planning to already.

Maybe its me but I prioritize options over freedom....although I value freedom almost as much. I'm not really the type who will squeeze as much as I possible can out of small-medium sized moveset but prefer a large moveset for their is more to work with and more diversity or options to work with the moveset (plus having advanced mechanics like cancels, buffering, and etc are great to have to help edit my combo options). One reason why I prefer 3D fighters over 2D ones although 2D fighters usually are more free form than 3D fighters.

 

[Railazel]

No, because the freedom lies in being able to do something else at any point during a combo, that's where the "free-form" comes from. You're getting too hung up on the idea that just because they both have a a "preset combo" they're a lot alike, when that's only the springboard both systems use to go into entirely different mechanics.

In DmC, Hacker and Death Coil are not preset combos like in a dial-a-combo system. They both use the similarity of an input causing a specific effect, but in DmC, me hitting Circle at anytime during Death Coil will have me do High Time, always. In a dial-a-combo system, inputting Circle during a Triangle string would cause a completely different effect depending on when in the combo I hit Circle. Take Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks - a different one will be performed depending on the inputs used.

Actually, you're making it sound like free- form has less freedom than dial- a- combo but that's just an error in how you're wording it.

Anyway, I'm getting "too hung up" on it because, really, there's very little difference. Taking your example, you using High Time in middle of a basic combo is, itself, a form of cancelling. You're interrupting your combo with a High Time as opposed to High Time being a natural part of the sequence. No different than how dodging is a form of cancelling in Bayonetta.

That's where the freedom lies - me knowing that Circle will always yield the same effects no matter when I do it.

But then that's where you wrong. The freedom lies in the fact that High Time only requires one button, is independent of any other button sequence, and you can do it as many times as you want. To add further, DmC's take on free- form as a whole relies on it's time- based combo- branching and cancelling methods. This is opposed to God of War's case where it's take dial- a- combo depended on stringing its various magic, juggling, and grab attacks with its basic combos. Now, if you're telling me that God of War is more limited in its potential as DmC, I would have to call you a liar.

For a moment, let's make on thing extremely clear - the number of inputs don't matter for being able to use one ability. Stinger or Trillion Stabs requiring a multi-command input for its use is not the same as what we're talking about. When we say "combo", we explicitly mean the number of steps into the attack combo. It's not the "button combination", it's the exact number of steps required for the specific effect. Again, take Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves - you can only get the stomping heel from above if you input a Kick after the correct number of Punches. Or, take Ninja Gaiden, and how if I want to do Izuna Drop, I have to input the right keys in the specific steps.

First, I have never used the word "combo" in that fashion. I have always used "input sequence". Second, "dialing a combo" refers to the input sequence itself, not the attack or the animation that follows because, most of the time, you can input the sequence faster than the animation. Trillion Stabs is in the same area because its input sequence is common in games like Tekken where double taps are a part of button combinations and are input sequences for some attacks.

And in regards to the topic - can you input that "Triangle Circle" at any time during a combo? No. You can't put it in at the middle or end of a combo like I could Trillion Stabs or High Time or whatever else. It needs to be at the start of a combo, as it needs to be a brand new combo. That is where you're losing freedom, which is what so many covet in a free-form combo system.

No, that's where you're wrong. If I want to input triangle, circle to get a juggle effect and do that whenever I want, I can but that depends on the game. Maybe I can just simply pause the combo that I'm doing for a brief period then do the juggle or I can cancel the combo with another action into the juggle or buffer the juggle in the midst of an animation. Whatever the case maybe, I can, if I'm able to, do the juggle whenever I want. There aren't many dial- a- combos games that make it so hard to switch between actions and combos that the system becomes too limited to be fun.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Actually, you're making it sound like free- form has less freedom than dial- a- combo but that's just an error in how you're wording it.

No, I'm really not. There's just very little to say in the contrary because it's so simple - one requires specific inputs and specific times, while one lets you do whatever whenever.

Anyway, I'm getting "too hung up" on it because, really, there's very little difference. Taking your example, you using High Time in middle of a basic combo is, itself, a form of cancelling. You're interrupting your combo with a High Time as opposed to High Time being a natural part of the sequence. No different than how dodging is a form of cancelling in Bayonetta.

No...that's a main difference because you're still thinking way too much about how like in DmC Death Coil is a "preset combo", and also disregarding how outside of those basic attacks everything else is free and open, whereas in dial-a-combo everything is based off of specific input chains.

Hitting circle for High Time in the middle of a combo is not the same as dodging to cancel a combo and start another. The only similarity is canceling something, but in DmC I'm using an attack, and my string of attacks is unbroken. And before you go on saying that "technically the string is unbroken in Bayonetta too" I'm not talking about how a combo rating system surveys the action, I'm talking about straight-up attacking mechanics wherein you push buttons and sh!t happens.

But then that's where you wrong. The freedom lies in the fact that High Time only requires one button, is independent of any other button sequence, and you can do it as many times as you want.

Yeah, and that itself offers more freedom because it's a self-contained action that can be placed anywhere at any time. I'm not wrong there...

To add further, DmC's take on free- form as a whole relies on it's time- based combo- branching and cancelling methods.

What the f#ck are you talking about...? The fact that any actions can be placed in any order make the "branches" of DmC's (the classics, as well) overall movelist so insanely dense. And much of it is possible without dodge or jump cancels. And no, please disregard your sh!t about how "High Time is a form of canceling" because it's different from what I'm actually talking about, and making me adhere to your definitions is gonna make me drop the conversation entirely.

This is opposed to God of War's case where it's take dial- a- combo depended on stringing its various magic, juggling, and grab attacks with its basic combos. Now, if you're telling me that God of War is more limited in its potential as DmC, I would have to call you a liar.

The same, however, cannot be said here, because dial-a-combo, while it might have a large list, it's a very strict list that must adhere to itself for specific actions to be used.

First, I have never used the word "combo" in that fashion. I have always used "input sequence". Second, "dialing a combo" refers to the input sequence itself, not the attack or the animation that follows because, most of the time, you can input the sequence faster than the animation.

Um...no. I have never heard dial-a-combo used with that definition. It's always been where inputting a specific sequence always yields a specific type of attack. In Ninja Gaiden (a dial-a-combo game) you can only get Izuna Drop by performing X Y X X X Y (360 input), and any variation on that will yield a very specific other action, or you'll just drop the combo entirely if the game doesn't like the inputs. To bring it all home, I'm dialing X Y X X X Y to do the Izuna Drop combo (which, hey! Has a specific animation!). That's where the damn name comes from; having to punch in a specific sequence to get what you wanted

If you really wanted to get broad with it, then yeah, every single action in a game like DmC or DMC3 is some sort of preset combo in and of itself, but...no, it's not the same, because dial-a-combo's combos are defined by the core mechanics itself as a stringent set, whereas in a free-form system it's just a multitude of possibilities the player is capable of because their options are so open.

No, that's where you're wrong. If I want to input triangle, circle to get a juggle effect and do that whenever I want, I can but that depends on the game. Maybe I can just simply pause the combo that I'm doing for a brief period then do the juggle or I can cancel the combo with another action into the juggle or buffer the juggle in the midst of an animation. Whatever the case maybe, I can, if I'm able to, do the juggle whenever I want.

If you have to do something extra like wait or cancel before you're allowed to start that new input sequence, it's not the same, at all. Especially if you're pausing the combo you want to cancel, because that's not really a cancel, that's you dropping the combo entirely to pick up a new one.

It's nice if you can do those things, but you'r essentially tricking the system into letting you do something that normally you're not supposed to be able to do in a dial-a-combo system. When the game explicitly tells you that you can cancel out of something, then it's the game transcending its own core mechanics, which is awesome - that's why Bayonetta is such an odd, awesome duck. However, in DmC, it's one clean action, its own combo that can lead into whatever else I want. I didn't have to do some sort of cancel to make that happen, or do anything special, I just hit the input for a different action and I did it. I changed what my combo was by virtue of doing something else, not by punching in a specific input sequence.

There aren't many dial- a- combos games that make it so hard to switch between actions and combos that the system becomes too limited to be fun.

Yeah, probably because basic dial-a-combo games are somewhat boring, so they add in mechanics that allow it to transcend the dullness of the core mechanic - or...in essence become more like free-form games :tongue: However, dial-a-combo still doesn't really have anything on free-form, other than being able to offer a wider variety of attacks with different animations depending on what combo you're dialing in.

All in all, free-form is about the actions themselves changing things, whereas in dial-a-combo it's about the inputs themselves.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

For reference, the purest form of a dial-a-combo game would be something like Musou (Warriors) games. If they're anything like they were when I originally played them, dialing in different sequences of Attack and Special offered extremely different attacks and effects, and it was the only way to get that specific effect by dialing in that one specific input sequence.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Sorry, by wider variety of attacks I mean "attacks with different animations". Obviously with each input sequence yielding a different combo, devs also take the opportunity to create different animations as well.

 

[VineBigBoss]

No...not really. Dial-a-combo is inputting a specific sequence of buttons for different outcomes, but those specific outcomes can only be achieved by that one specific combo, eg inputting Square>Square>Triangle will always yield the same final effect. Ninja Gaiden is a perfect example of dial-a-combo, like Izuna Drop, one of Ryu's most powerful skills which always ends with him grabbing the enemy and spiraling their head into the ground. Always. It's the only way to perform Izuna Drop.

Alternatively, a game like DmC, skills are made as self-contained in their inputs as possible. I can High Time whenever I want, at any time during a Death Coil combo. I can Trillion Stab any time I want, too. That freedom is extremely enticing to a lot of people because it doesn't force the player to wholly commit to the combo.

It's not that dial-a-combo is bad, it just doesn't offer the same kind of freedom than a free-form system can.

It's the difference between why I love fighters like BlazBlue, and I'm not too keen on games like Tekken.



Free-form offers a lot more tactical freedom and a breadth of creativity that is difficult to get out of dial-a-combo by sheer virtue of how the mechanics work. Free-form lets you alter and then return to a combo for specific effects whenever you like and when circumstances require it. The same cannot be done with dial-a-combo.

It's not that one is better because it's favored, it's that one is favored because it is mechanically better. No different than liking a platformer that uses Mario's trajectory altering jump mechanics as opposed to Castelvania's forcing you to buy a f#ckin' engagement ring for your jump arc.



I don't think that can work >.<

I agree with almost everything, just some paranthesis there:

You can do this in Ninja Gaiden by shuriken-canceling (that's why this technique is so important to have more fun with this game), but you always cancel and return to "blank state", i mean, you have to choose another dial combo or some command move to either cancel again or go to another dial string. In some ways, shuriken cancelling allows the player to simulate a free-form combo system because of how much frame adv you'll have. But Team Ninja was sufficiently smart to put command moves instead of relying solely on combos to pull off specific moves, i mean, most weapons in the game have a command move that juggles or have a special propety, one different special property comes from Kusari-Gama, which is a weird weapon but a rewarding weird weapon, you can delimb your enemies guaranteed with this weapon's special throws from command moves or specific combos.

I like both systems, i love Ninja Gaiden too, it's easily my favourite hack'n'slash in this generation (Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2) because the combat overall is hella intense, even if the game has very, very cheap design sometimes it's still rewarding to win a difficult battle. But talking about solely the combo systems, free-form combos have the upper-hand, unless they put it together with another inteligent mechanics like shuriken-canceling; but dial-a-combo system can give you much more cool animations and enders than a free-form system would because of the triggering of this special moves mid-combo; the combinations can extend to infinite if the devs are not lazy to make them with this system. Ninja Gaiden 2/Sigma 2 is a good example of a game with a immense variety of cool enders and moves triggered mid-combo: