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Angelic lore in DmC

Do you think that angels need a larger part in the plot?


  • Total voters
    18

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
I already saw a thread about a similar topic, but I thought I should make a distinct one, beacuse, if I remember correctly, that thread was more about gameplay issues.
This time I'd like to rant about lore and plot issues.

My take is that NT's move to put angels in the story was a really good idea, beacuse it vastly expands the lore of the world, in opposition to just demons being "the bad guys", and "those who must be killed".
Moreover, this worked very well with the implementation in the gameplay of the different weapons and lifts, thus making the whole gaming experience well differentiated and interesting.

However, although moving from very good premises, I think that NT let an important chance slip through their fingers, at least lore-wise. What I'm talking about is the fact that angels play too smaller a part in the story.
The only angel we are shown is Eva, and even then, she isn't depicted in a way that clearly showed her as different from a common human (the only tidbit is that image from Dante's flashbacks, in which she has wings). The only way we know she is angel is because Vergil tells us so.
Now, you can counter me by saying that Sparda too isn't shown doing demonic stuff, so my point would be null.

It isn't, though. Try this mental experiment. Imagine that Vergil tells us that nephilims are in fact half breeds of humans and demons (just like it was in the classic series). Demons have always been fighting mankind to take control over them, Mundus gets rabid because Sparda loved a human woman, and the only ones who can slay a demon king are half-devils. The story would still unfold pretty smoothly. Yes, you would have to change the names of abilities such as Angel Lift, and all the weapons would be Devil Arms, but it could still work, (remember, at least story-wise). And it would even make more sense in regards to the scene in which Dante acquires Aquila (an angelic weapon) from Bob Barbas (who is a demon...).
The point that I'm trying to make here is that angels have little to no influence on the story (though this is not true gameplay-wise).

Now, I think this is a pity, considering that,
1. gameplay-wise, I think that the distinction between angelic and demonic weapons/abilities is a great merit of DmC;
2. lore-wise, I think that adding angels to the picture is a refreshing change from the simpler scenario of "just bad-guy demons".

However, not all hope is lost. There is still space to widen the picture, with a spin-off or a direct DmC2 sequel.
My suggestion is that angels be thrown in the game in DmC2. I hope that NT gives us a look at this fantomatic war between angels and demons that, on a side note, according to Vergil is still going on.

What do you think about it?
What role should angels have? (I have a pretty definite idea about that, but I'll wait to post it later, if you still want to know it...)
 

chocolatepanda

Well-known Member
I dont think the angels need to be explained since the main focus was getting rid of Mundus, leaving it out leaves a lot to be explained if a second game is made instead of trying to cram everything into one game.

I think the reason why Dante got an angel weapon from Bob was Rebellion just naturally evolved on its own after absorbing energy from bob
 

Onecrazymonkey1

Well-known Member
yup I would have loved for angels to be in this game and they should definitely be in future installments. However, If they do put them into a DmC2 than I want them to be so self righteous, cold, calculating and ruthless that they make the Demons look like mans best friend; making Eva the odd ball in heaven. I think it would be interesting if Dante got his emotions and humanity from his demon side and Vergil his cold nature from the angelic. Sort of like having sympathy for Lucifer in Paradise lost because we're imperfect ourselves and could relate, while God just seemed distant and unknowable in his perfection.

great well thought out post!
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
yup I would have loved for angels to be in this game and they should definitely be in future installments. However, If they do put them into a DmC2 than I want them to be so self righteous, cold calculating and ruthless that they make the Demons look like mans best friend; making Eva the odd ball in heaven. I think it would be interesting if Dante got his emotions and humanity from his demon side and Vergil his cold nature from the angelic. Sort of like having sympathy for Lucifer in Paradise lost because we're imperfect ourselves and could relate, while God just seemed distant and unknowable in his perfection.

great well thought out post!
You should stop reading my mind. Really.:p
I want them to be the baddies in the next game...
 

Onecrazymonkey1

Well-known Member
You should stop reading my mind. Really.:p
I want them to be the baddies in the next game...
That's because we're awesome. Oh and you should add what role you would like the angels to have because your post is really detailed and interesting. I swear I do not have the patience to make nice long posts like yours or anyone else. My thoughts would come out jumbled and incoherent because I tend to have a hard time concentrating and explaining myself >.<
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
That's because we're awesome. Oh and you should add what role you would like the angels to have because your post is really detailed and interesting. I swear I do not have the patience to make nice long posts like yours or anyone else. My thoughts would come out jumbled and incoherent because I tend to have a hard time concentrating and explaining myself >_<

(You want honesty from me? When I post like this, it's because I'm in a library and have to pretend to be studying...:troll: )

I do have an idea for that, but I didn't want to bore people too much.
But since you asked...
My starting point were two:
1- as I already said, what the hell had angels been doing while those two newbies in the war (Dante and Vergil) caused a total turn of the tide??
2- Vergil said: "If you can't see the chaos that humans will cause...". What if he was right?

So, I'd go as follows.
After Mundus' death, the world faces total anarchy (my infamous zombie demon apocalypse idea), because demons are running free while the power system and the military are shown to be mostly composed by demons. So we are faced with a The-Walking-Dead-like situation, with demons instead of walkers and humans having to create smaller communities to defend themselves and survive.
Without rules, many people start going nuts, and the little feudal communities start little wars between themselves. Again, refer to TWD if you want to know what I mean...
Dante and Kat help fight the demons, but they can't be everywhere. Little by little, they recognize that Vergil was right, humans caused quite the chaos, and they need a guide to rebuild a functioning power structure that could sustain a peaceful civilization. So they recognize they need to rebuild the Order, and go searching for Vergil (because he is a good leader, both charismatic and planning), hoping he would come back to lead them.

But they aren't the only ones to think that things degenarated.
Angels, who I imagine had been in a weak position as long as Mundus became more and more powerful, are now free to act, because the demon world, now that their king is dead, is shaken by internal power struggles.
And so the angels act: they come down on earth, and start conquering territories. In the lands they control, they establish a perfectly ordered society, called Elysia, that takes direct inspiration from the one described in Equilibrium: a society in which humans are deprived of their emotions thanks to a drug they are given. But this drug is different from Virility: this time, angels do that openly, declaring that, by sacrificing emotions, humans can gain something by far more important: peace.
Their propaganda, moreover, glorifies Dante and Vergil as saviours: while Dante is celebrated as the fighter, Vergil is celebrated as the perfect leader (the "Big Brother" of Elysia). So, they try to recruit them, and, well, the story unfolds...


I stop here, for now. I have a story in mind, but it's more like a fanfiction than a possible plot for a game...
 

Onecrazymonkey1

Well-known Member
(You want honesty from me? When I post like this, it's because I'm in a library and have to pretend to be studying...:troll: )

Well I'm at work....or I should be working right now...:troll:

My starting point were two:
1- as I already said, what the hell had angels been doing while those two newbies in the war (Dante and Vergil) caused a total turn of the tide??

I was thinking the same thing. Why were they so apathetic to the whole situation that they just sat back and watched? I kind of have a theory that the angels have a hatred for Nephilim much like the demons do. Maybe they just thought, let our enemies kill each other? I can certainly picture it and it would be pretty interesting if they helped to hunt down all the past Nephilim.

2- Vergil said: "If you can't see the chaos that humans will cause...". What if he was right?

I really hope there are some kind of consequences to show that there is no perfect or easy answer. I would hate for Ninja theory to miss this opportunity by sweeping it under the rug and going with a hunky dory easy way out. I just don't want them to basically say that Dante was right all along; I think it would be less realistic that way. They changed the course of humanity which is a pretty big deal and the next game should reflect that hopefully. I would really like Dante to struggle a bit with his conscious from all the human deaths, wondering if it was worth it and doubting his decision.

So, I'd go as follows.
After Mundus' death, the world faces total anarchy (my infamous zombie demon apocalypse idea), because demons are running free while the power system and the military are shown to be mostly composed by demons. So we are faced with a The-Walking-Dead-like situation, with demons instead of walkers and humans having to create smaller communities to defend themselves and survive.
Without rules, many people start going nuts, and the little feudal communities start little wars between themselves.

This sounds extremely dire, dangerous and deadly. Considering how weak humans are I think would actually be scarier than a zombie apocalypse.

Dante and Kat help fight the demons, but they can't be everywhere. Little by little, they recognize that Vergil was right, humans caused quite the chaos, and they need a guide to rebuild a functioning power structure that could sustain a peaceful civilization. So they recognize they need to rebuild the Order, and go searching for Vergil (because he is a good leader, both charismatic and planning), hoping he would come back to lead them.

while I think Vergil was on a better road than Dante (in my opinion and I am slightly biased) I'm not so sure Dante would ever recognize Vergil as right; he is a little rebellious in nature after all. However I can see still see him seeking out Vergil for help. I hope Vergil is not completely insane after downfall though.

But they aren't the only ones to think that things degenarated.
Angels, who I imagine had been in a weak position as long as Mundus became more and more powerful, are now free to act, because the demon world, now that their king is dead, is shaken by internal power struggles.
And so the angels act: they come down on earth, and start conquering territories. In the lands they control, they establish a perfectly ordered society, called Elysia, that takes direct inspiration from the one described in Equilibrium: a society in which humans are deprived of their emotions thanks to a drug they are given. But this drug is different from Virility: this time, angels do that openly, declaring that, by sacrificing emotions, humans can gain something by far more important: peace.

And that definitely puts them on par with the demons, it kind of makes me think of the tranquil mage's in dragon age origins. I wonder if anyone is actually ruling the angels during all this? The demons took away intelligence and the angels finish the job by stunting humanity emotionally.

I stop here, for now. I have a story in mind, but it's more like a fanfiction than a possible plot for a game...

I think it sounds interesting so far!
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
while I think Vergil was on a better road than Dante (in my opinion and I am slightly biased) I'm not so sure Dante would ever recognize Vergil as right; he is a little rebellious in nature after all. However I can see still see him seeking out Vergil for help. I hope Vergil is not completely insane after downfall though.
Probably not at first, but maybe, with some hint from Kat, and seeing that things got really awful... I think the turning point is when he recognizes he needs a more "politcal" mind, because he's not going anywhere with brute strength.

This sounds extremely dire, dangerous and deadly. Considering how weak humans are I think would actually be scarier than a zombie apocalypse.
And here we go with our horror spin-off...
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
Oh, and this is what some angels could look like...
Again, Paolo Barbieri remains my guru.
IMG_0136_zps1b5e9671.jpg

I'm sorry for the not-so-good quality of the image, I couldn't find it in the net, so I took a photo from the book...
 

Onecrazymonkey1

Well-known Member
Oh, and this is what some angels could look like...
Again, Paolo Barbieri remains my guru.
IMG_0136_zps1b5e9671.jpg

I'm sorry for the not-so-good quality of the image, I couldn't find it in the net, so I took a photo from the book...
This is gorgeous!!!! and a little intimidating...
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
This is gorgeous!!!! and a little intimidating...
You should see the rest... demons are... well.. I'm at a loss of words.:w00t:
I was thinking about sharing some pics, as you suggested before they would make great working material for enemies in the games, but since I cannot find them on the net I'm afraid I would be infringing copyrights and thus some forum rule...:(
 

REAPER 3142

Revenge Solves Everything..............
I had a similar walking dead idea. Small communities of humans. the walkers are replaced with demons. Angels should be out to save people but only those who agree to be followers and give up freedom. this doesnt sit well with dante and...................bam! new enemies to fight. Vergil now leads the the demons but also finds a common enemy with dante in the angels. plot twists possible here and there. I have alot i would love to add but i think i would bore people and destroy my keyboard. i pray for a second game. this one is awesome.
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
I had a similar walking dead idea. Small communities of humans. the walkers are replaced with demons. Angels should be out to save people but only those who agree to be followers and give up freedom. this doesnt sit well with dante and...................bam! new enemies to fight. Vergil now leads the the demons but also finds a common enemy with dante in the angels. plot twists possible here and there. I have alot i would love to add but i think i would bore people and destroy my keyboard. i pray for a second game. this one is awesome.
Well, I for one would be really interested in hearing some of your ideas... As I reckon that we share a similar starting point in our ideas for a possible development of the story, I'd find really useful sharing ideas and suggestions... :)
 

REAPER 3142

Revenge Solves Everything..............
Well, I for one would be really interested in hearing some of your ideas... As I reckon that we share a similar starting point in our ideas for a possible development of the story, I'd find really useful sharing ideas and suggestions... :)

thanks alot. well for starters I would love to see an angelic world of influence similar to limbo. So hell has limbo. maybe heaven could have purgatory. a place where angels try to use their influences on humans. dante could visit here in search of a specific angel or maybe an artifact of sorts to help turn the tides of the war. since limbo is now merged with earth dante could phase in and out of purgatory to get around obstacles. but like how limbo tried to stop dante purgatory could as well. since i cant imagine the angels like him trying to keep the humans to rule on their own. and i would also like to hear your ideas as well.
 

LysseC

Philosopher and fangirl. Worst. Combination. Ever.
thanks alot. well for starters I would love to see an angelic world of influence similar to limbo. So hell has limbo. maybe heaven could have purgatory. a place where angels try to use their influences on humans. dante could visit here in search of a specific angel or maybe an artifact of sorts to help turn the tides of the war. since limbo is now merged with earth dante could phase in and out of purgatory to get around obstacles. but like how limbo tried to stop dante purgatory could as well. since i cant imagine the angels like him trying to keep the humans to rule on their own. and i would also like to hear your ideas as well.
Well, I thought about an angelic-specific dimension too. It would only seem natural, since demons have it, and Phineas at some point names something about nephilims being able to access both worlds (if I remember correctly).
As I already hinted at, my idea was angels starting to create a dystopian society in which emotions were eliminated by humans being explicitly drugged. The idea is that, while demons give superior importance to instincts and emotions, and are ruled by them, angels are the beacon of Reason. But both angels and demons represent opposite extremes, while virtue is in the middle. And the middle are both nephilims and humans; but while humans are just...well, humans, nephilims are way more powerful, as they possess both demonic and angelic powers and traits.
And, since angels shared similar ideas to those of Vergil (the fact that humans need to be ruled), they would try and contact him, asking him to take his place as ruler of their new society. They would also try and recruit Dante, who is shown by them as the model warrior.

Now, Dante would refuse immediately, and there's no need to explain why...
Vergil, on the other hand. Well, I interpreted him as not wanting to become a cruel leader, nor wanting to create a society like that of the angels, but just wanting to establish a new peaceful and flourishing society in which mankind could be free from both demons and angels. Now, we don't really know how much VD changed him. I'd like to think that, under layers of rage and pain, he still is the good guy we are shown at the beginning of DmC. If that was the case, I think that he too would refuse the angels' offer.
So,the coming of the angels could be the spark that leads to a reconciliation between the twins, and to the foundation of a New Order, with Vergil again as the leader. The New Order would start a rebellion, and we would have an open war with the angels, in which Vergil would employ both human fighters and the demons he controls. (The New Order would still probably have to fight wild demons as well, to protect humans)

If I had to put this in a game, I would dedicate one half of it to Dante's story (this part would be the most similar to a The Walking Dead game), while the other to Vergil's path back to sanity (I'm working on ideas in this regard).
The creation of the New Order could be the end of the game, with a grandiose last cutscene in which Vergil is seen giving an inspiratory speech in front of the rebels. Then, we see the rebels charging an army of angels. The war between angels and humans has begun.
 
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