A big "Thank You!" Ninja Theory!

[Macabre]

lol bad facial capture? are you serious? first of all, the only times they don't "emote" is when a character is supposed to care about the situation or conversation, such as when
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=engMMDxoqyM#t=284s
this is bad facial animation?

or how about this ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=btRV_XT-oHM#t=12s
dante's face obviously screams, "i'm interested but i'm cautious because to me all demons are bad" do you even realize how many times they have to act out a scene, do you know anything about film or animation besides what you hear in dev diaries, yeah if you think this is bad facial capture then you must think that uncharted and the last of us have terrible facial animation, (here's a hint, you're completely wrong if you think otherwise, uncommonly known fact, there's a such thing as a uncredible opinion)

Obviously the Uncanny Valley is by it's very nature a bell-curve that different people respond to on varying scales, so critique of facial acuity is always going to be difficult. Now if you'd do something other than resort to attempted ad hominem maybe we'd have this part of the debate out of the way already.

On the subject of Barbas and that particular clip you brought up, you can see some of the problems I have already. Without subtitles it's practically impossible to lip read what he is saying because the mapping around his mouth was taken with only a few "dots", leaving his lips to flap in a manner that rivals Metal Gear Solid 2.

What's more, Barbas is meant to be a character who satirises Right-Wing pundits such as Bill O'Reilly (Even though Bob's tirades are incredibly sedate and completely justified given Dante's actions). Behold the face of Real O'Reilly.

Bill, like most pundits, has a very emotive face and he emphasizes his emotions very theatrically, going through complex levels of disdain, self-aggrandization and boredom at any given instant of his performances in order to be an effective manipulator of the viewer's emotions. Watch him without audio and behold a master bullplop artist at work.

That is what Barbas should have looked and acted like, not some stale anchorman who can barely muster slight frustration.

It's only one example, but everywhere in the game there are failings, both technical and artistic, which keep it mired.

 

[AlchemistFromEden]

Obviously the Uncanny Valley is by it's very nature a bell-curve that different people respond to on varying scales, so critique of facial acuity is always going to be difficult. Now if you'd do something other than resort to attempted ad hominem maybe we'd have this part of the debate out of the way already.

On the subject of Barbas and that particular clip you brought up, you can see some of the problems I have already. Without subtitles it's practically impossible to lip read what he is saying because the mapping around his mouth was taken with only a few "dots", leaving his lips to flap in a manner that rivals Metal Gear Solid 2.

What's more, Barbas is meant to be a character who satirises Right-Wing pundits such as Bill O'Reilly (Even though Bob's tirades are incredibly sedate and completely justified given Dante's actions). Behold the face of Real O'Reilly.

Bill, like most pundits, has a very emotive face and he emphasizes his emotions very theatrically, going through complex levels of disdain, self-aggrandization and boredom at any given instant of his performances in order to be an effective manipulator of the viewer's emotions. Watch him without audio and behold a master bullplop artist at work.

That is what Barbas should have looked and acted like, not some stale anchorman who can barely muster slight frustration.

It's only one example, but everywhere in the game there are failings, both technical and artistic, which keep it mired.

already responded to my post with links to the 360 version which has much better visuals

 

[Macabre]

And no, I am not defending Classic DMC. I believe that if you gave the old team the money and resources that were thrown at NT they would have spent it on additonal gameplay depth and laughed at your assertions that they're not making "art".

And DMC4 is not the best place to draw comparison from anyway, given that the development was rushed horribly by Capcom and they didn't finish half the product they wanted to deliver.

Which isn't to say the earlier games didn't have their moments of derp.

I always get a laugh out of the way Dante's mouth looks at 1.38

Also worth noting: Nothing in DmC gets within a google miles of how utterly badass this scene is.

 

[Macabre]

already responded to my post with links to the 360 version which has much better visuals

...what?

 

[AlchemistFromEden]

...what?

its called reading, read my other post -_-

 

[Macabre]

its called reading, read my other post -_-

I'm sorry, i meant "Is that it?".

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I always get a laugh out of the way Dante's mouth looks at 1.38

Also worth noting: Nothing in DmC gets within a google miles of how utterly badass this scene is.

That scene was good...but not the best in my opinion. I prefer DMC using actual swordplay, and this one failed my expectations of swordplay.-_- Still like it, but it also didn't entertain me as much as it use to.

DmC actually had better facial expressions then the past DMC games. Say what you want about graphics and gameplay, but the voicing, story, and emotional facial features, were a lot better compared to 1,2,and 3. 4...well 4 just sucks in general, but you know what I mean.

 

[Macabre]

That scene was good...but not the best in my opinion. I prefer DMC using actual swordplay, and this one failed my expectations of swordplay.-_- Still like it, but it also didn't entertain me as much as it use to.

It's intended as a preamble to the swordplay that would follow. Also notice: Dante makes minimal use of his demonic sword while playing with the Prides, yet makes excessive use of his human-made hand guns. We see illustrated his contempt for his demonic nature and his over reliance on his humane side.

Subtle inferrence without dialogue. I love it.

DmC actually had better facial expressions then the past DMC games. Say what you want about graphics and gameplay, but the voicing, story, and emotional facial features, were a lot better compared to 1,2,and 3. 4...well 4 just sucks in general, but you know what I mean.

Keep in mind the gap in development times between DMC4 and DmC, and also the emphasis within development. Cutscenes have always been a distant secondary focus in the Classic games, whereas to NT they are the ONLY focus given that Itsuno took over combat development when they buggered it up. Don't forget the quality of plot and script that these superior animations are taking place within either; you can watch Ernst: Scared Stupid in HD if you want to, but why would you want to at all?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

It's intended as a preamble to the swordplay that would follow. Also notice: Dante makes minimal use of his demonic sword while playing with the Prides, yet makes excessive use of his human-made hand guns. We see illustrated his contempt for his demonic nature and his over reliance on his humane side.

Subtle inferrence without dialogue. I love it.

Still. He only used it to cut a pool table in half. I expected more with it, and was pretty dissapointed.


Keep in mind the gap in development times between DMC4 and DmC, and also the emphasis within development. Cutscenes have always been a distant secondary focus in the Classic games, whereas to NT they are the ONLY focus given that Itsuno took over combat development when they buggered it up. Don't forget the quality of plot and script that these superior animations are taking place within either; you can watch Ernst: Scared Stupid in HD if you want to, but why would you want to at all?

So that I feel the emotions of the character and see the actual feel or determination on their face to understand how they're taking the experience on a personal level.


It's an artist thing. You've probably never heard of it.

Also a lot of games had actual emotion show on their faces back in DMC4's time and they actually nailed it. DMC4 only showed 30% of that and didn't really give me that feeling. Especially Dante, who was just a wet bag with stylish written on it.

 

[Martius]

Dont say thanks for pc port to NT, they did not have done anything with it. It was done by Polish company - Qloc.

 

[Macabre]

And DMC4 is not the best place to draw comparison from anyway, given that the development was rushed horribly by Capcom and they didn't finish half the product they wanted to deliver..

So that I feel the emotions of the character and see the actual feel or determination on their face to understand how they're taking the experience on a personal level.


It's an artist thing. You've probably never heard of it.

When the tragedy that a character is embroiled in are born out of their own smug incompetence (Vergil) and boundless stupidity (Dante) I can't feel for their plight artistically no matter how hard they're gurning. All I can do is laugh. And weep.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

When the tragedy that a character is embroiled in are born out of their own smug incompetence (Vergil) and boundless stupidity (Dante) I can't feel for their plight artistically no matter how hard they're gurning. All I can do is laugh. And weep.

says you.

Good thing I know how to pay attention to story and not look at the pretty lights called stunts and anime magic.

 

[Macabre]

says you.

Good thing I know how to pay attention to story and not look at the pretty lights called stunts and anime magic.

Glad to see that the racist assertion that anything Japanese is Anime is still going strong, well done.

DmC's story really is the pits on every conceivable level. Every single character motivation, origin and action is exposited about in the direct terms possible to completely idiot-proof the narrative. There's no implication, no inference, no subtlety, it's all intended to cater to the lowest common denominator at all times.

It's a tale of rebellion which doesn't have the heroes face meaningful consequences for the their actions and completely lacks any perspective from the vox populi that gives these stories their weight. There's no message to take from the game, no meaning greater than self-aggrandization and literal demonization of authority without any kind of informed statement on why the world mirrors that of the game or how it can be helped. It's a puerile empowerment fantasy on the most base, most grotesquely simplified level imaginable, and you insult yourself by enjoying it.

Christ, Jak 2 is a more rounded parable for societal upheaval with a "dark" protagonist, and that game was made for eight year olds.

Too.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Glad to see that the racist assertion that anything Japanese is Anime is still going strong, well done.

Come on. Like DMC isn't anime related.

DmC's story really is the pits on every conceivable level. Every single character motivation, origin and action is exposited about in the direct terms possible to completely idiot-proof the narrative. There's no implication, no inference, no subtlety, it's all intended to cater to the lowest common denominator at all times.

in your opinion.

It's a tale of rebellion which doesn't have the heroes face meaningful consequences for the their actions and completely lacks any perspective from the vox populi that gives these stories their weight. There's no message to take from the game, no meaning greater than self-aggrandization and literal demonization of authority without any kind of informed statement on why the world mirrors that of the game or how it can be helped. It's a puerile empowerment fantasy on the most base, most grotesquely simplified level imaginable, and you insult yourself by enjoying it.

So now I'm wrong for liking a game? Some maturity you have. What if I said DMC3 was a very poor scripted anime wanna be styled story with no real point in it and just full of cheesy out of date one liners that only follow one demographic of sweaty anime nerds that take anything as holy from japan and that you enjoying it makes you scum? That's pretty much the message you're giving right now.

so calm down.

Christ, Jak 2 is a more rounded parable for societal upheaval with a "dark" protagonist, and that game was made for eight year olds.

Glad you enjoyed it. Meanwhile I felt it tried to hard to be dark and didn't do the series justice.

 

[Macabre]

Come on. Like DMC isn't anime related.

It's no more related to anime than it is to any other genre of media which has been used to display heroic epics. "Anime" as you define it is a narrow catch-all term used to belittle and insult a broad medium. Are you going to compare DMC to Grave of the FIreflies next?

So now I'm wrong for liking a game?

No, I said you're insulting yourself by liking it. You can like Revenge of the Fallen if you like, but you're doing yourself a disservice by doing so. You can grow gangrene in your open wounds if you want, I just insist that you don't try cuddling me.

What if I said DMC3 was a very poor scripted anime wanna be styled story with no real point in it and just full of cheesy out of date one liners that only follow one demographic of sweaty anime nerds that take anything as holy from japan and that you enjoying it makes you scum? That's pretty much the message you're giving right now..

I'd say you're entitled to that opinion but that you're using ad hominem to attack the people who like it more than the work itself, that your critique isn't very strong and, again, you're making racist comparisons to anime.
What's more I never said that 3 was a masterpiece, or that DMC was ever anything more than a simple heroic romp, but the fact of the the matter is that's all it intended to be. The fact that 3 has some nice cinematography, excellent fight choreography and a that most of it's plot is delivered with surprising subtlety is a pleasant bonus.
DmC has that much further to fall because it has pretensions of greater meaning but...well, it's DmC. It's speaks for itself.

Glad you enjoyed it. Meanwhile I felt it tried to hard to be dark and didn't do the series justice.

"The Series" was one game at the time with a largely undefined consistant theme other than what Naughty Dog felt like throwing in any given area, and it's subsequent success was what led Naughty Dog to become well reputed as game creators and paved the way for the Uncharted series. I had my problems with it certainly, but you can't deny there are certain similarities between DmC and Jak 2, and why the latter is a deeper narrative

Look at Baron Praxis versus Mundas for instance. Praxis is a dictator and a vile monsterto boot whose presence is felt everywhere within his city, but his rule is literally the only thing keeping the city from being ripped apart from within and without by an invading army and criminal enterprise. He might only protect the city out of pride, but that pride itself is born out of a mad sense of ownership for every soul in the City, and he will literally kill himself to keep his enemies from them.

Mundas is evil. He claims to have saved the Earth from starvation. There is no evidence of this. It's probably a lie. That's Mundas.

 

[Martius]

Mundas is evil. He claims to have saved the Earth from starvation. There is no evidence of this. It's probably a lie. That's Mundas.

Showing some people that know whats going on and accept it because its easier and more comfortable thank thinking themself would add some grey shades to story. Mundus is poor antagonist because he is poor written - he is evil because he is evil.

 

[Ether0]

It's no more related to anime than it is to any other genre of media which has been used to display heroic epics. "Anime" as you define it is a narrow catch-all term used to belittle and insult a broad medium. Are you going to compare DMC to Grave of the FIreflies next?

No, I said you're insulting yourself by liking it. You can like Revenge of the Fallen if you like, but you're doing yourself a disservice by doing so. You can grow gangrene in your open wounds if you want, I just insist that you don't try cuddling me.

I'd say you're entitled to that opinion but that you're using ad hominem to attack the people who like it more than the work itself, that your critique isn't very strong and, again, you're making racist comparisons to anime.
What's more I never said that 3 was a masterpiece, or that DMC was ever anything more than a simple heroic romp, but the fact of the the matter is that's all it intended to be. The fact that 3 has some nice cinematography, excellent fight choreography and a that most of it's plot is delivered with surprising subtlety is a pleasant bonus.
DmC has that much further to fall because it has pretensions of greater meaning but...well, it's DmC. It's speaks for itself.



"The Series" was one game at the time with a largely undefined consistant theme other than what Naughty Dog felt like throwing in any given area, and it's subsequent success was what led Naughty Dog to become well reputed as game creators and paved the way for the Uncharted series. I had my problems with it certainly, but you can't deny there are certain similarities between DmC and Jak 2, and why the latter is a deeper narrative

Look at Baron Praxis versus Mundas for instance. Praxis is a dictator and a vile monsterto boot whose presence is felt everywhere within his city, but his rule is literally the only thing keeping the city from being ripped apart from within and without by an invading army and criminal enterprise. He might only protect the city out of pride, but that pride itself is born out of a mad sense of ownership for every soul in the City, and he will literally kill himself to keep his enemies from them.

Mundas is evil. He claims to have saved the Earth from starvation. There is no evidence of this. It's probably a lie. That's Mundas.

Dude you really need to calm down and stop getting you unmentionables in a twist over DmC. It's one thing to criticize the game or not like it or even hate it, but all you seem to do is cruise these forums looking for any moment someone says something positive about this game and take a huge **** on them and degrade them all because you have a different opinion.

If you hate this game with this much passion that's perfectly okay, but don't go around bullying other people who do.
Calm down, no matter how much you loved the other games, and hate this one on such a personal level, at the end of the day they are all just video games.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Small point - don't thank Kamiya, Itsuno, or Capcom for the badass choreography.

That was all U'den Flameworks and/or Yoji Shimomura. The best you can praise the formers for is hiring them, but...it's sort of a no-brainer that if you want awesome choreography, you go to U'den and/or Yoji, so you'd just be praising them for doing something obvious

As for DmC, it wasn't intended to have that kind of over-the-top choreography, so expecting it is sort of your own fault

 

[Macabre]

If you hate this game with this much passion that's perfectly okay, but don't go around bullying other people who do. Calm down, no matter how much you loved the other games, and hate this one on such a personal level, at the end of the day they are all just video games.

I'm really not trying to bully anyone chief. I want to provide a devil's advocate on the glowing praise people heap on DmC which I see as wholly undeserved, and try to offer some grounded reasoning for why I think so. If I'm not providing enough of an in depth perspective or using terms too broad to describe complex concepts then that's my fault as a writer and I'm sorry.

I'm happy for and even jealous of those who have found a way to appreciate DmC, but I'm not going to do them the disservice of lying to them either.

Isn't it nice not to have everyone agree with you?

As for DmC, it wasn't intended to have that kind of over-the-top choreography, so expecting it is sort of your own fault

It's using the same name, it gets judged by the same criteria or better. Sorry.

But yes, it's true that the original team outsourced their cutscene direction to a proven and competent third party.

...nope, too easy...

 

[Ether0]

I'm really not trying to bully anyone chief. I want to provide a devil's advocate on the glowing praise people heap on DmC which I see as wholly undeserved, and try to offer some grounded reasoning for why I think so. If I'm not providing enough of an in depth perspective or using terms too broad to describe complex concepts then that's my fault as a writer and I'm sorry.

I'm happy for and even jealous of those who have found a way to appreciate DmC, but I'm not going to do them the disservice of lying to them either.

Isn't it nice not to have everyone agree with you?



It's using the same name, it gets judged by the same criteria or better. Sorry.

But yes, it's true that the original team outsourced their cutscene direction to a proven and competent third party.

...nope, too easy...

Well for one, I can do without the passive aggressive insults on my intelligence.
Most of the people here have no problems discussing the negatives with DmC and are glad to do so, no one said it was perfect. But there is a difference between giving criticism on what the game fails at or does badly and talking about it in a non inflammatory, non divisive manner and just belittling and insulting the thoughts and opinions of others which is what you are doing.