Good Female Leads? The Deconstruction of the Artificial "Strong Female Lead".

[Chancey289]

I'm a little tired and maybe delirious so bear with me on these thoughts. If I don't make sense a bit, I'm sorry.

Now, in the entertainment industry the controversy surrounding female leads is still there. People wanting them to be properly represented and better role models yadda yadda yadda. But, when you look at it, there are so many examples of the "strong female leads" that really aren't all what they are cracked up to be when you think about it.

Note that I'm not talking about all the kinds of characters on this female character spectrum.

However, is it so hard to just create female characters that turn out to be great when you're just deciding to make them normal? How no matter what kind of person they are they stand on their own merits as great characters?

Now, one of the best examples of a great female character off the top of my head is one not many people might expect. And I think best sums up what more characters should be like.

NOW HOLD UP. Don't worry. I'm not some freaky massive pony fan. I think it's a decent cartoon and I watch it but, hardly as good as people in that weird fandom that's so easy to make fun of makes it out to be.

I'm just saying how much I can appreciate a character like Rarity. She's my favorite personally because she's funny and is really the most complex character on the show that is the best example of the point I'm trying to make.

In any other cartoon the prissy girly girl drama queen would most likely be the villain right?

(basically the alpha b!tches lol)

Yet, despite being a very prissy drama queen she is a good person at heart with a lot of admiring qualities that make her definitely worthy to look up to if you wanted. A perfect example of how you can be anything you want and still be a good person.

So.......is it really that hard to develop characters no matter what kind of person they are and STILL make her a strong female character instead of a "strong female character"?

Is it so hard to present just NORMALITY.

Lara Croft has gotta be frail and overcome her sh!t to be a strong female character. Katniss has gotta be the most normal looking tomboy girl who can shoot a bow and arrow beating you all up and the lady gaga knockoffs are evil (Hunger Games suuuuuuuccccckkkkkkssss ). Kinda makes it seem like making women more like men is the answer to a lot of these people when creating characters.

I say we just make them great by making them normal. They can be whoever. A tomboy, girly girl, whatever and still be great in their own right.

Discuss.

Hopefully I didn't lose focus and made sense. Sorry if I'm out of it. :hungover:

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

I agree with you; while I do enjoy seeing the women who can perform amazing feats of strength (because, as rare as they may be, they do exist, and some of us draw comfort from seeing them like that) I also believe that physical strength alone is not enough to make me really like a character. What good is all that strength if their personality can be compared to a brick wall, or a shallow puddle?

Sometimes, the greatest strength is that of will, of how a character never loses hope in the face of peril, in how they selflessly put forth all of their efforts to helping others.

In short, I agree with your premise that a physically strong female character doesn't equal a strong female lead. I apply the same principle to male leads, as well. While I like to be able to, I don't have to relate to the character on a personal level, but I do need a reason to care about them and their exploits...otherwise, what's the point, right?

 

[Meg]

Define normal.

For a lot of women, being a prissy drama queen or a tough as nails badass IS normal.

I say, write interesting women. Women can be physically weak but mentally strong or vice versa. It doesn't matter so long as they have interesting character arcs, complex personalities, and a good balance of positives and negatives.

Basically this:

Give me characters like that. Or these:

Or even characters like this are great:

All of these women are really different, but they are all interesting, well-rounded characters.

Basically, write women who aren't objects! Write women who are interesting! Make me give a crap about them.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Jade from Beyond Good & Evil

Naoto Shirogane

Chie Satonaka (somewhat)

Faith Conners

Um... I'll let you know if I think of anyone else.

 

[Chancey289]

Define normal.

For a lot of women, being a prissy drama queen or a tough as nails badass IS normal.

I say, write interesting women. Women can be physically weak but mentally strong or vice versa. It doesn't matter so long as they have interesting character arcs, complex personalities, and a good balance of positives and negatives.

Basically this:

Give me characters like that. Or these:

Or even characters like this are great:

All of these women are really different, but they are all interesting, well-rounded characters.

Basically, write women who aren't objects! Write women who are interesting! Make me give a crap about them.

The characters that you can tell are not so artificially crafted to be pushed as the "strong female character".

And I REALLY hate Lightning. You can like her and that's fine but I just never found her to be anything special at all. I mean, she was basically pushed as the female Cloud yet Cloud was even more interesting and his personality wasn't even his.

 

[V]

Guess a lot of the time "strong women" are just expected to be violent badass type characters because if they're not they'll be an eye candy type and that's not considered something to be respected on the same level as being able beat seven colors of crap out of someone else.

Normality isn't exactly "respectable" in the exaggerated realm of fantasy either (fantasy being any medium for entertainment unless its specifically going for accuracy or realism). We're all fairly normal but we probably don't consider ourselves 'strong' or badass for being so. So while a normal woman character should probably be pushed over the type that spends her time spinning around in movies killing bad dudes with blades, etc, it's hard to see how she would be special or especially respectable without some extraordinary trait. Be that smarts, determination, grit, whatever. But just being normal I don't think can cut it to the level of gaining an audience's respect, unless the context specifically emphasizes/praises her normality... and I guess not many escapist movies or stories are going to bother with that.

 

[Chancey289]

What I mean by "normal" is the characters that are not so artificially crafted to be something in order to push this certain type that they think people are looking for. Get what I'm trying to say?

 

[Loopy]

What I mean by "normal" is the characters that are not so artificially crafted to be something in order to push this certain type that they think people are looking for. Get what I'm trying to say?

Can say the same about male characters too. Quite a few of them look like they work out at the gym too much and have huge muscles. They either have a playboy lifestyle, arrogant, multiple women on the go without any emotional attachment to them, or are killers without any emotion or internal conflict. That is a terrible way to represent men. Yet it is expected that men should be portrayed this way.

Why should it be stereotypical and expected that male character should be violent, or killers or emotionless?

It's expected that Nathan Drake can go around shooting people right from the beginning, but Lara Croft has to be attacked by a man to force her hand into making her first kill. So, it's saying that then only way a woman can be killer is if a man pushes her to it by being violent to her. :facepalm:

Define normal.

For a lot of women, being a prissy drama queen or a tough as nails badass IS normal.

I say, write interesting women. Women can be physically weak but mentally strong or vice versa. It doesn't matter so long as they have interesting character arcs, complex personalities, and a good balance of positives and negatives.

Basically this:

Exactly. Write women who are interesting. They don't have to all be fighters or warriors. I just want female characters who have some depth to them, something interesting besides being eye candy and looking for their prince to marry.

Take the ice powers out of the equation, and I could see Elsa as being a good example of a female character. Her conflicts are all internal, about repressing herself because that's what she's been taught to do, cutting herself off from her sister, and the world, and then she learns to be true to herself and embrace what she has and rekindles the closeness that she had with her sister.

Take it to another level, and Elsa is a character who is able to be by herself. She's not the stereotypical Disney princess who ends up with a prince for a happily ever after. She doesn't need a prince to be happy; in contrast to her sister, Anna, who tries to marry the first man who gives her some attention. :facepalm:

I like her too. Sure, she's not out on the front line fighting all the battles, but that's what I like about her. She's another female character with internal conflicts; she wants to fight, but she can't because she's a woman, so she makes the best of what she has and uses it to her advantage. As well as that, she'll do anything to keep her children safe. She's a mother and a queen, a schemer, and a sort of politician all rolled in to one, with goals and fears, and a little paranoia.

In the books, she gets herself into a situation where she's mocked and torn apart and broken, but she comes back from it, and comes back stronger for her own sake and to protect her son.

Almost any female character from Game Of Thrones/ A Song of Ice and Fire would be a good example of female characters done well, imo.
Either Brienne the warrior outsider, or Katelyn Stark, who, while not a fighter, does everything she can to keep her family safe; or Danny, who made the most of bad situation after bad situation, turning it to her advantage getting wiser and stronger each time.

Not all of those women are fighters, some are mothers and queens, and some are princesses, or girls on the run, but all of them have multifaceted personalities, wants, desires and goals and they're trying to achieve them in a world where men mostly have all of the power. That's what makes them even more interesting to me.

The men are written well too. They're complex men, family men, fathers with honour and duty, and fears, instead of the stereotypical meatheads with sex and violence on the brain.

Why it is expected that male characters should go around killing and being violent with no emotions, while a women has to have something terrible happen to her (usually at the hands of men) to make her snap and turn violent is just beyond me. Both male and female characters should be written as complex and interesting people instead of adhering to these silly stereotypes. Just write people, who cares if it is a man or a woman. Just write them well.

 

[Chancey289]

I hate Nathan Drake so much.

 

[Maxman]

2 words for people reading this Topic

MONA SAX BITCHEZ

Okay, it's 3 words ;P

 

[Loopy]

Just out of interest, but what is everyone's image of a 'strong female character'?

Far too often, I see this being applied only to women who are shown to fight or kill or hate/ shun male characters. But, to me, it means lots of different things.

Strong women shouldn't automatically mean she can go toe to toe with a man in a fight and kill him to boot; and it shouldn't mean that she doesn't need a man, or actively hates them.

For me it's more about characters who maybe have a motherly role and do anything for their family, so they are strong in that sense; or the woman who stands up for herself and is strong enough to know her own mind, even when people are against her. Sure, being strong can mean fighting at times, but fighting is only one aspect of a character.

Sometimes strong female characters need saving; other times they can pitch in and help in a fight, but not always directly on the front line of battle; they can offer information instead, like Oracle in Batman. Strong in that sense can mean lots of different things. It's not just about physical strength.
I think that's part of the problem. It's being filtered through a male image of what it mean to be strong, and that means fighting and physical strength.

Not all female characters need a man, but that's not to say they don't need them either. But being a strong female character shouldn't mean they are written to hate men.
Female characters can also build up relationships with friends and family and people around them. It doesn't have to be exclusively with a male romantic interest. Maybe they can have males who are friends instead of the expectation that the friend is a love interest.

I guess what I mean is, there are so many women in the world, and each of us is different, and each of us is a combination of traits, and strength can mean very different things to each of us.

 

[Chancey289]

A strong female character to me is just another example of a strong character in general. People worry too much about all kinds of certain things that crafting a character of a certain gender. Like there's a checklist of things a female or male character needs.

Referring back to the very start I'm mainly talking about the artificially crafted female characters that are "strong female leads". I mean, of course we can apply the same thing to male characters but what gets the most controversy and debate? Females of course.

Side note: You notice how also there's just some kind of cull to female protagonist too?

 

[ReaperHunter]

Just out of interest, but what is everyone's image of a 'strong female character'?

When I think of strong female characters or any great female character for that matter The Boss from MGS3 is normally the first character to come to mind.

 

[JohnKasarinlan]

What I mean by "normal" is the characters that are not so artificially crafted to be something in order to push this certain type that they think people are looking for. Get what I'm trying to say?

By artificially, do you mean like the new Lara Croft where she started fairly normal then became a kind of badass during the end? This kind of development?

Either Brienne the warrior outsider, or Katelyn Stark, who, while not a fighter, does everything she can to keep her family safe; or Danny, who made the most of bad situation after bad situation, turning it to her advantage getting wiser and stronger each time.

I honestly don't think Daenerys is getting wiser. Stronger yes but not wiser. She is beginning to closely resemble Aegon the Conqueror and many of the typical Targaryens by taking what she wants by Fire and Blood. She strikes me as someone with a messiah complex to be honest.

Also, i think Sansa Stark is also fairly strong and she doesn't deserve that much of the hate she gets. Sure she started as a naive girl who is enthralled by stories and songs of romance and adventure, particularly about those handsome princes, the honor of knights and their so called chivalry and love. That literally became her views of the world outside winterfell. Then what she have been through at king's landing and what Joffrey(Also Cersei) did to her destroyed her beliefs about it and as of now she have mentally persevered through out her stay in King's Landing(a place for sociopaths and players of the game) and is still alive right now.

 

[Chancey289]

They just beat the sh!t outta Lara Croft every 5 minutes and called it character development. She was just a victim of circumstance and it was going to have her become the badass regardless if the road leading up to it made sense or not.

 

[Loopy]

They just beat the sh!t outta Lara Croft every 5 minutes and called it character development. She was just a victim of circumstance and it was going to have her become the badass regardless if the road leading up to it made sense or not.

Original Lara didn't need that happening to her. Original Lara just was an explorer and a fighter from the beginning. She didn't need to have someone push her to the point of killing, or forced interactions with other characters to try and make us give a toss.

I wouldn't have minded an origin story of how she became an explorer, but I don't think they got it quite right with this new Tomb Raider. It was made too harrowing and too much violence happening to her to the point where it become ridiculous. It's like they were glorifying the violence and forgetting that they were supposed to be making a character from that.

 

[Chancey289]

Original Lara didn't need that happening to her. Original Lara just was an explorer and a fighter from the beginning. She didn't need to have someone push her to the point of killing, or forced interactions with other characters to try and make us give a toss.

I wouldn't have minded an origin story of how she became an explorer, but I don't think they got it quite right with this new Tomb Raider. It was made too harrowing and too much violence happening to her to the point where it become ridiculous. It's like they were glorifying the violence and forgetting that they were supposed to be making a character from that.

The violence directed at Lara did become rather gratuitous. The original Lara origin was that she actually always was a rather athletic and active thrill seeker but what really got her going was when she was stranded in the Himalayas and had to survive there. Afterwards she traveled the world learning all kinds of skills and trades.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Kino.

She travels on her own, with only a motorcycle and a supply pack, and she won't hesitate to defend herself when feeling threatened.

There's no "artificial toughness" forced upon the audience. She comes off as a real person.

... A real person that's seen far too few times in this day and age, unfortunately (in both reality and fiction). :thumbsdown:

 

[Shin Muramasa]

Hmm, this discussion was brought up in a good time. For those of you that like Super Smash Bros and Metroid, well, when Zero Suit Samus was confirmed to reappear but with a customized Other: M look, people raged at Samus being a frail, sexualized, trashed character compared to her original badass self who I shall remind people: wore skin-tight suits, bikinis, and revealing clothing back then and continues to do so. Maybe it's just comfortable to her. Tales of Xillia invoked this with Milla Maxwell who just finds wearing a mini-skirt and sleeveless top easy to move around it. That gets knocked down for making women look skimpy, but men wearing kilts or shirtless with nothing but shorts is a-okay.

Here's Zero Suit Samus in the new Super Smash Bros.

Here's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Zero Suit Samus.

Same skin-tight suit made to integrate with her armor but one has more prominent heels that act as jet-boots or rather "jet-heels", different hightlights, paralyzer model, and bracelets. Her heels this time look like sandals when removed, will return her to being heel-less Samus. Also, these heels now serve as a function besides making her look "sexy". Who knows, maybe Samus likes wearing heels? Or maybe she likes wearing short shorts, halter-tops, jewelry, hair dyes, make-up, and other "girly" things. Oh wait, men do that and get ripped on too. Men wear make up. Men dye their hair. Men wear short shorts. Men wear heels. Why the hell can't she wear and use them? Why the hell can't men do that too? Why the hell can't people do what the like? Why can't people let people be?

Remember Raiden? In MGS2, he was ripped on for being androgynous and therefore homosexual - ignoring him replacing Solid Snake which was another reason why Raiden is hated. Well, he went through hell and became a badass cyborg ninja with heels or "foot-thumbs".

Like Samus, his heels are functional; his heels work as thumbs to give him an extra pair of "hands". Well, people ripped on him for wearing heels which proves that he really is a ******. What he wears shouldn't decide what he is. He's a badass who just happens to look pretty and wear heels. Guess what? Samus is a badass who also just happens to look pretty and wear heels. Also, they both wear skin-tight suits.

Speaking of which. Metal Gear's sneaking suits are really tight on Solid Snake, Big Boss, Raiden, and pretty much anyone else who wears sneaking suits. Why aren't they getting ripped on? Hell, people joke about seeing Snake's and Big Boss's nice buns of steel. Oh, but when a woman wears a skin-tight suit, it's degrading. Well, what the hell is she supposed to wear? A freaking parka that makes tons of noise and will kill her? At least it covers her from gazing eyes. Guess what? People will look no matter what you do, what you wear, or what you are.

Seriously, look at the suit! Look at Snake's physique!

Functional and fabulous, but when a woman is wearing it, then it's a sin...

Anyway, based on Violette Szabo, Velvet Assassin stars Violette Summers, a WWII spy who kicks ass, takes names, and looks stunning. I don't know about the gameplay, but the story and character were well-received. So she wears form-fitting clothing, a hospital gown for parts of the game, and a military dress, but just one look at her shows she means business. Samus has that look too right? So does Lara Croft. So does Elizabeth from Bioshock. So does Fetch from inFAMOUS. So does Raiden. So does Meryl Siverburgh. So does Gray Fox in his cyborg armor. So does pretty much any protagonist regardless of what they look like.

Why do we let our eyes deceive us? A person's actions should tell us their true self, not what they're wearing or they look like.

 

[Loopy]

Why do we let our eyes deceive us? A person's actions should tell us their true self, not what they're wearing or they look like.

That's just how it is. People look and make judgements. I don't know if it will ever change.

What bothers me when it comes to female characters are the comments about judging her purely on looks, wanting to have sex with her, jokes about how she should be in the kitchen, rape fantasies, or how guys want to fap to her; not to mention the weird 'fanart'; I use that term loosely, involving bondage, rape and other messed up situations.

What the heck makes people want to make comments like that at all, especially about a fictional character? It's just inappropriate and messed up on so many levels.

Seems like even if a female character is made to be more than eye candy and a sex fantasy, there are still the same comments reducing her to a piece of meat.

It's like Elizabeth from Bisoshock. There were a few articles about the size of her chest and a lot of weird fanart. Levine basically said that if you play the game, Elizabeth is like a sister. So anyone focusing on the size of her chest and thinking that sort of thing about her after playing the game has issues, and it says more about the person playing the game than the way the character looks.
On the whole, I'm inclined to agree with that.

It's like the recent article up on IGN about a female game producer. Most of the comments were about how she looked, if she was attractive, wanting to sleep with her and a few jokes about getting back in the kitchen. :facepalm: What on Earth makes these kind of comments acceptable?

All I can say is I hope these people don't behave like this in real life and are just using the internet to act out under the cover of anonymity.