Dmc dante vs DMC3 vergil

[TWOxACROSS]

Amulets probably can't be destroyed, but yeah, having the Amulet removed somehow may prove a disadvantage. When Dante got his Devil Trigger energy shot out from the statue and explicitly went for his Amulet. So it holds at least some significance. Although, the Amulet may only represent a sort of key needed to first unlock the power, since the power itself comes from within the person themself.

The problem is that Vergil's Downfall was all sorta in Vergil's head, it was a personal hell he went through while he was dying. So his missing Amulet wasn't really missing, it was all a rather metaphysical experience. The whole thing was about him confronting his failures in his quest for power, and the "Hollow" people he met were just negative interpretations of his mind, probably all coming from the same source: Hollow Vergil, who existed solely to get Vergil to sever the connections to his "compassionate," human-like side. That's why Vergil's Downfall was pretty much about Vergil turning his back on and/or killing the people he knew (metaphysically, of course). Hollow Vergil made Vergil see them as obstructions in his lust for power, with himself being the last stepping stone. Beating Hollow Vergil, giving into all that anger and hatred, all that power, and reclaiming his Amulet was sort of like reclaiming the power he once had, and then some. Sorta like how you mentioned the loss of the Amulet representing the loss of power, IncaDemo.

Regarding Doppelganger, though, that's just Vergil's Devil Trigger. Doppelganger isn't a representation of his demonic side anymore than it's just a magically-projected double of himself, with all the same angelic and demonic powers. Vergil's Doppelganger was not really Hollow Vergil. As I mentioned above, the Hollow characters were just a representation made for Vergil for step over - they are legitimately just all the bad aspects Vergil could see in that particular person, which made it easier for him to leave them behind ("My brother is a dick. Kat was useless and weak."). At most, Hollow Vergil represents what Vergil could become by letting go of his personal connections - much in the same way the classic Vergil denounced his human side as weak, and threw it aside in favor of his demonic side.

Since all of Vergil's Downfall is a mostly metaphysical experience, it's entirely possible that the removal of the Amulet wouldn't have any effect, though. It's sorta hard to say :/ All of the events of Vergil's Downfall happened in such an odd place...

Vergil lay dying on his parent's grave in the Human World​

Then...​

Vergil was swan diving along with other tortured souls in what appeared to be Hell​

And then...​

Vergil was slayin' demons and severing emotional connections with shades of people he knew in what appears to be his mind.​

​

...in the end of Vergil's Downfall, Vergil wakes up from the grave with all that juicy new demonic power, and the demons take bended knee in servitude to him.​

​

If anything, Vergil's Downfall could be like Dante's treks to the Lost City which helped him unlock his Devil Trigger and some other skills, because Vergil never truly left the cemetery...​

 

[CheeseKao]

I apologize if this has been brought up before but aren't VS threads not allowed in this forum?

 

[Stylish Nero]

Amulets probably can't be destroyed, but yeah, having the Amulet removed somehow may prove a disadvantage. When Dante got his Devil Trigger energy shot out from the statue and explicitly went for his Amulet. So it holds at least some significance. Although, the Amulet may only represent a sort of key needed to first unlock the power, since the power itself comes from within the person themself.

The problem is that Vergil's Downfall was all sorta in Vergil's head, it was a personal hell he went through while he was dying. So his missing Amulet wasn't really missing, it was all a rather metaphysical experience. The whole thing was about him confronting his failures in his quest for power, and the "Hollow" people he met were just negative interpretations of his mind, probably all coming from the same source: Hollow Vergil, who existed solely to get Vergil to sever the connections to his "compassionate," human-like side. That's why Vergil's Downfall was pretty much about Vergil turning his back on and/or killing the people he knew (metaphysically, of course). Hollow Vergil made Vergil see them as obstructions in his lust for power, with himself being the last stepping stone. Beating Hollow Vergil, giving into all that anger and hatred, all that power, and reclaiming his Amulet was sort of like reclaiming the power he once had, and then some. Sorta like how you mentioned the loss of the Amulet representing the loss of power, IncaDemo.

Regarding Doppelganger, though, that's just Vergil's Devil Trigger. Doppelganger isn't a representation of his demonic side anymore than it's just a magically-projected double of himself, with all the same angelic and demonic powers. Vergil's Doppelganger was not really Hollow Vergil. As I mentioned above, the Hollow characters were just a representation made for Vergil for step over - they are legitimately just all the bad aspects Vergil could see in that particular person, which made it easier for him to leave them behind ("My brother is a ****. Kat was useless and weak."). At most, Hollow Vergil represents what Vergil could become by letting go of his personal connections - much in the same way the classic Vergil denounced his human side as weak, and threw it aside in favor of his demonic side.

Since all of Vergil's Downfall is a mostly metaphysical experience, it's entirely possible that the removal of the Amulet wouldn't have any effect, though. It's sorta hard to say :/ All of the events of Vergil's Downfall happened in such an odd place...

Vergil lay dying on his parent's grave in the Human World​

Then...​

Vergil was swan diving along with other tortured souls in what appeared to be Hell​

And then...​

Vergil was slayin' demons and severing emotional connections with shades of people he knew in what appears to be his mind.​

​

...in the end of Vergil's Downfall, Vergil wakes up from the grave with all that juicy new demonic power, and the demons take bended knee in servitude to him.​

​

If anything, Vergil's Downfall could be like Dante's treks to the Lost City which helped him unlock his Devil Trigger and some other skills, because Vergil never truly left the cemetery...​

Yeah but Dante needed some items like the blue roses and the key Assiel held to get into this Lost World.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well yeah, I'm just saying it's similar. The items may simply act as keys that unlock Dante's mental passage to the Lost City.

Rather different from Vergil's predicament, though, since he...sorta went through Vergil's Downfall while dying, or...full-on dead.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Well yeah, I'm just saying it's similar. The items may simply act as keys that unlock Dante's mental passage to the Lost City.

Rather different from Vergil's predicament, though, since he...sorta went through Vergil's Downfall while dying, or...full-on dead.

Also how come Vergil's look different from Dante's such as where is that big ass statue that gives Dante his power ups. How come Vergil met actual people like Eva and the Hollows while Dante didn't?

Also, if Vergil already unlocked his DT prior to DmC or DF shouldn't he have gone through a similar process like Dante's so he should've been to a world inside his head too so why would he be unfamiliar to the place in DF unless the world in DF and the inner world isn't the same?

Also, if the white hair signifies unlocking your demonic potential (as implied by Phineas looking at the strands of white hair on Dante's head after getting his DT and signifies he unlocked his inner devil but is incomplete) why did Vergil have white hair since he was a kid?

Now I think about it. I have more questions.

How did Vergil remember his lost memories if it took Vergil finding Dante and bringing him to their home for him to remember? Was this explained in the Chronicles of Vergil comic book (VC comic I call it now)?

If Vergil went inside their home just like Dante did how come he never came across their weapons such as Arbiter and Osiris unless if only Dante can obtain those because their parents left it only for Dante (explains why Vergil felt his mom liked Dante more) or Vergil completely missed them?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Also how come Vergil's look different from Dante's such as where is that big ass statue that gives Dante his power ups. How come Vergil met actual people like Eva and the Hollows while Dante didn't?

Vergil was in Hell, supposedly. I said Vergil's Downfall was like Dante and the Lost City, as in they were both metaphysical experiences, since neither actually went anywhere.

He met with Eva because *shrug* she's dead, too. Much like the representations of Dante and Kat, Eva could have been something fake, too, who knows.

Also, if Vergil already unlocked his DT prior to DmC or DF shouldn't he have gone through a similar process like Dante's so he should've been to a world inside his head too so why would he be unfamiliar to the place in DF unless the world in DF and the inner world isn't the same?

Like I said, Downfall took place in Vergil's mind, while he was literally falling through Hell(?)

Also, if the white hair signifies unlocking your demonic potential (as implied by Phineas looking at the strands of white hair on Dante's head after getting his DT and signifies he unlocked his inner devil but is incomplete) why did Vergil have white hair since he was a kid?

*shrug* Vergil is supposed to be the smart one. I guess his magical aptitude was also a lot greater than Dante's

How did Vergil remember his lost memories if it took Vergil finding Dante and bringing him to their home for him to remember? Was this explained in the Chronicles of Vergil comic book (VC comic I call it now)?

It's been a while since I read the comic, but it was mentioned in the game that Vergil always felt there was something that he was like "forgetting," that there was something more. He seemed to have done a lot of research. He also had Yamato, so he probably found Paradise, created a rift, and started sauntering through the place remembering stuff.

If Vergil went inside their home just like Dante did how come he never came across their weapons such as Arbiter and Osiris unless if only Dante can obtain those because their parents left it only for Dante (explains why Vergil felt his mom liked Dante more) or Vergil completely missed them?

This brings up the nature of Rebellion. I think overall since Rebellion is actually morphing into other weapons, those weapons (or the energy of them) is something only Dante can acquire with Rebellion.

Or, it's possible that Vergil's Angel and Demon stances with Yamato were something he acquired from the paintings, while Dante got Osiris and Arbiter *shrug*

However, all this is neither here nor there to the topic >.<

 

[Stylish Nero]

I also figured out why Vergil would think his d!ck is bigger than Dante's.

 

[darkslayer13]

Vergil associating loss of his amulet with loss of his power does suggest that the amulets are connected to DT in DmC. this possibility produces two weak points 1. removal of the amulet removing DmC Dante's DT and 2. DmC Dante expecting removal of DMC Vergil's amulet to affect his DT when it does not and would in fact just make Vergil angry at Dante.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Are we still talking about this?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I also figured out why Vergil would think his d!ck is bigger than Dante's.

That is just a conversation between Kat and Vergil I'm not sure I'd like to see.

Dante disappears, fading to nothing as he moves between the worlds, leaving Vergil and Kat to stand idly by the rift marker the psychic placed.
"So...I saw Dante naked..." Kat stammered.
"That's...that's nice..." Vergil responded with a slight nod.

Vergil associating loss of his amulet with loss of his power does suggest that the amulets are connected to DT in DmC. this possibility produces two weak points 1. removal of the amulet removing DmC Dante's DT and 2. DmC Dante expecting removal of DMC Vergil's amulet to affect his DT when it does not and would in fact just make Vergil angry at Dante.

Maybe, but that all really only matters if it's true :ermm: Vergil, in his mind, associating the Amulet to his power could be interpreted as that which he is owed, by succession of his parents, or by virtue of being Nephilim, but then lost when he was defeated by his brother, who sided with humanity instead of his own kin (both racial and familial). It's difficult to transfer what takes place in a character's head into figure out how it applies to the real world sometimes. The whole metaphysical experience of Vergil's Downfall makes more than a few things iffy

The thing is that the Amulets in DmC were a gift by Eva, but the powers of both Dante and Vergil are strictly Nephilim abilities. It's difficult to see the Amulets being something tied to all Nephilim, when they really seem to react more as a key that unlocks the potential Sparda had hidden away in his boys.

We also don't have enough background on the Amulets to know how similar or different they are than the classic Amulets. They're importance to both the Sons of Sparda and opening portals to Hell is well-documented in the classic series, but...little more is known about them in DmC other than them being gifts and having some part to play in unlocking Dante and Vergil's abilities.

In that respect, it's almost the same problem with the two different Sparda characters - there's not enough info on the Amulet's DmC counterpart to really figure much out :/

 

[Demi-fiend]

Makes me wonder what each "species" respective weaknesses are --

The old DMC twins weren't as physically strong or as magically adept as high ranking demons (like Mundus) because they were half-human. DMC1 Dante needed Trish's power to fully charge up and take down Mundus.

In DmC, I'm not really sure what the tradeoff is -- is it because they're Nephilim that they are neither as strong as "Pure Angels" or "Pure Demons"? Because that would have been a good plot point to make and would have made the characters somewhat more "relateable" in gameplay context.

And if that's the case, would this mean that the final enemy is an archangel who doesn't care about humans -- or would it be God Himself? Imagine the implications of that final boss in DmC2 or 3.

Here's another example: in Blade, Eric (the Daywalker) had all of the vampires' strength, and none of their weaknesses -- but, he could still age like a normal human, instead of aging very slowly like in Marvel's universe.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

*shrug* Maybe being Nephilim just affords them the best of both words, and it's why they were seen as better than the demons and angels. Sorta like inheriting just the best traits from your parents. So far the only draw back is that Nephilim themselves are an affront to those rigid ancient boundaries set in place, and that apparently makes people angry.

While being half-demon in the classics, Dante's true power lied in embracing both his demonic and human sides. Apparently having humanity made Dante potential to surpass his full-blooded demon father, but...I dunno exactly how that's supposed to work >.< It really starts to get into that "power of loooooove~" sorta feel-good juju Japan likes to use as part of the tenacious spirit the hero has.

Unfortunately, Vergil denounced his humanity in his lust for power. The bigger theme of DMC has always seemed to be that demon's aren't all-powerful because they lack what the frail humans possess.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

With humanity comes love. Demons in DMC have been portrayed as cold and ruthless with little compassion. Exception being Sparda of course. And i believe the sub traits of love is compassion and hope.
In God of War what made Kratos defeat Ares was that he had hope within him, at least that's how i recall it.

Which is why i don't look at Vergil's defeat at hands of Dante meaning Vergil is weaker than him. I look at them as equals, first time Vergil defeated Dante. And maybe Dante had not gone through the mental journey of why he wanted to stop Vergil. Perhaps Dante thought "Vergil, my brother, is trying to do something thats bad for him. I cant let him destroy himself".

And at end when he defeated Vergil, perhaps Dante's thoughts was "If i loose here, Vergil will not only make himself suffer but also humans".
So love for others (humans), was that extra factor that lead Dante to defeat Vergil. That's not to say Dante is weak or not Vergil's equal, the twins are equal as far as i can see.

I don't know if angels possess hope, but demons dont seem to do, while humans do.
I saw a film where God decided to do something that was bad and sent an angel to do something bad against humans. I think apoclypse or something.

And in super natural if i remember correctly i got a impression that angels did not have much hope.
i.e "Let's deal with the situation before it gets out of hand" instead of "Lets give the humans more time and hope it will be fine".

As for Vergil not caring about his human side, it doesn't mean he has lost his humanity. It just means he was indifferent about it.
But Sessomaru was also indifferent about others, but eventually he became someone who showed compassion for others.

Sessomaru being very similar to Vergil.

EDIT:
Hope

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Bleh...God of War III was a mess :/ Its like the devs went "Hrm...maybe Kratos is getting a little too angry..."

The thing is, even if Dante and Vergil are equals, he was denouncing his humanity and pretty much turning his back on certain potential he had. There was a lot of power to be gained by embracing humanity, evidenced by Dante by DMC2 having surpassed Sparda. Ironically, in his quest for "mooooore pooowwerrrrr~" Vergil didn't bother with the one thing that would have given him an incredible amount of power.

And that's kind of the thing, Dante has this insurmountable tenacity he acquired by embracing his human side, and while the twins might be equal, Vergil was inadvertently holding himself back

 

[Stylish Nero]

Bleh...God of War III was a mess :/ Its like the devs went "Hrm...maybe Kratos is getting a little too angry..."

The thing is, even if Dante and Vergil are equals, he was denouncing his humanity and pretty much turning his back on certain potential he had. There was a lot of power to be gained by embracing humanity, evidenced by Dante by DMC2 having surpassed Sparda. Ironically, in his quest for "mooooore pooowwerrrrr~" Vergil didn't bother with the one thing that would have given him an incredible amount of power.

And that's kind of the thing, Dante has this insurmountable tenacity he acquired by embracing his human side, and while the twins might be equal, Vergil was inadvertently holding himself back

It was more of the matter of "I win because what I'm fighting for is better than what your fighting for."

When Dante said that they both contain Sparda's soul and his soul wanted to stop Vergil he was saying that he thinks this is what their father would've wanted and Vergil said their souls were at odds meaning Vergil thinks that his perception of father would've wanted him to obtain his power.

Meaning both had conflicting views of what their father would've wanted its just that Dante was most likely the one with the right perception of their father so he was most likely to inherit their father's power and legacy and become the true legacy of Sparda as he did in DMC2. However, the irony is that Sparda entrusted Vergil with Yamato his best sword of the 2 (not including Force Edge/Sparda) and the sword that can cut dimensions and sever the link between the Human and Demon World as well as it was most likely his main sword/replacement for Sparda after he sealed away the Demon World which implies Sparda had more faith in Vergil being his successor while he gave Dante a pretty badass sword just cause he is his son.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Eh, that's tenacity for you, though. It's like that "fighting for others" spirit that Japan loves so much.

It's just worth mentioning (since this is the DmC Dante vs DMC3 Vergil thread) that while the classic Sons of Sparda are equal in terms of potential power, Vergil is nowhere near where Dante has ever been, because he unknowingly limited himself.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

God of War can be a mess (i barely playedit lol). But what Pandora said about hope is very correct.

Now as for Vergil losing out on power? How would that be? He was Dante´s equal, and in beginning stronger than Dante.
And when they fought for last time i believe Dante won not because he was stronger than Vergil but:

1. Vergil was Dante´s brother. He didn´t want him to destroying himself.
2. Humans

Dante fought with love in his heart, for Vergil and for humans.

Dante became stronger not because he was half human, but because he embraced love.
And even if you embrace love, you can embrace hate and still become powerful too.
DMC 2 Dante became as strong as he is because he wasn´t dead. If Vergil was alive, whether he had embraced love or not, he would be most likely as strong as Dante.

The only thing Vergil held himself back from was a happy life.
Let´s assume Vergil was weaker than Dante. The difference in power would then be so little that it´s not noticeable.

So the idea of "embrace your human side and you become so much pawa ful" doesnt hold much weight.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You're not getting me.

The Sons of Sparda are equal in potential, but Vergil was essentially holding himself back. He specifically aimed all of his intent on gaining more demonic power while turning his back on his humanity, which is so much more potent, evidenced by Dante's increasingly "this isn't fun anymore"-levels of power by the end of the series.

Think of it as two equally matched chess players, but Black (Vergil) refuses to use all of his pieces because he feels they aren't useful (his Humanity), while White (Dante) uses all the pieces on the board. It doesn't matter how evenly matched you are in physical, emotional, or psychological skill to an opponent, if you're gimping yourself you're probably going to either lose, or end up with a Pyrrhic victory.

Dante goes through the rest of the series timeline expressing how important humanity is to an individual, and denouncing it for the sake of some greater power is tantamount to giving up a limitless power.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Dante spoke of love. In DMC 4 he did not speak of physical or supernatural abilities.
Love is what defines humanity. And with love comes hope.

Hope pushes you to your limits. You adapt, you endure more etc.

If Vergil embracing his human side was holding him back, then why did Dante who embraced it lose so badly to Vergil first time they fought?

Dante fought for a better cause, it was better because he fought with love.
He had not only become equal to Vergil in power, he also had a burning fire of love within him for his brother and strangers (humans).

 

[Stylish Nero]

You're not getting me.

The Sons of Sparda are equal in potential, but Vergil was essentially holding himself back. He specifically aimed all of his intent on gaining more demonic power while turning his back on his humanity, which is so much more potent, evidenced by Dante's increasingly "this isn't fun anymore"-levels of power by the end of the series.

Think of it as two equally matched chess players, but Black (Vergil) refuses to use all of his pieces because he feels they aren't useful (his Humanity), while White (Dante) uses all the pieces on the board. It doesn't matter how evenly matched you are in physical, emotional, or psychological skill to an opponent, if you're gimping yourself you're probably going to either lose, or end up with a Pyrrhic victory.

Dante goes through the rest of the series timeline expressing how important humanity is to an individual, and denouncing it for the sake of some greater power is tantamount to giving up a limitless power.

I know Nelo Angelo doesn't count but when Dante fought Vergil again in DMC1 as Nelo Angelo, Nelo kicked his ass in their first encounter and this was 10 years apart from DMC3 meaning that Dante was stronger from his final encounter with Vergil on Temen-ni-Gru so Vergil can get stronger without a need to embrace humanity or accept love.

So what I'm getting from you is that Vergil will never realize his full potential and remain stagnant til he accepts his humanity. I call false, he may not able to realize his full potential but I doubt he is incapable of growth power and stats wise.

The thing about humanity it isn't a power up that grants Dante more power like his DT or a Devil Arm but a factor of character that gives him the upper edge over his foes.

Its basically like a generic Shonen plot device for the main character to win his fights (friendship) such as how in One Piece Luffy can beat foes far stronger than him due to the power of his bonds and friendship to give him the drive to win despite how f*cked up he gets.

Basically, humanity isn't a form of power or something that can be scaled or measured into someone's base stats but its basically a plot device that gives Dante/Nero a fighting chance against those who lack it.

Humanity is a drive to get stronger and overcome the obstacles not the factor that somehow improves and raises your stats.

Dante got stronger over the years due to his drive to protect humanity and love so he can master such abilities such as his Majin Devil Trigger and such.