berto
I Saw the Devil
thats a rather unfair over simplification of the game. no one will deny the story's shortcomings but what it delivers on it does more than well enough and it reserves all the credit for it.
What do you guys make of this?
- Thread starter Dusk Stalker
- Start date
thats a rather unfair over simplification of the game. no one will deny the story's shortcomings but what it delivers on it does more than well enough and it reserves all the credit for it.
The Final Offer
Well-known Member
Tell me, what good did Bayonetta do to the hack and slash genre?
I played it beginning to end and I can't think of a moment were I said "Wow, that's new."
berto
I Saw the Devil
Pardon the double post.
Alright, so by this argument if the game brings nothing new to the table it qualifies as been not a good game since apparently it no longer deserves credit for what it does right, however if you want to know what it does to push the genre forward I'll see if I can oblige with an answer.
As I said the game has variety and choice, meaning that there are plenty of things that can be done and many tools to choose from.
As it stands Bayonetta has the longest list of weapons in any hack and slash that I know of with 10 different kinds and variations of a select few (numbering at around 15), all which can be mixed and matched. The weapons all share a long list of combos, again, the longest one I've seen in a hack and slash, but the weapons still manage to have more unique functions than most other games would with the given material, for example Odette (the ice skates) change how she moves around, some weapons require dramatically different timing to pull of the same combo (ex, Sai-Fung, the nun chucks and Killgore, the bazookas). All weapons have a charge/hold the attack button function. A lot of said weapons have more than one use, like the whip that allows you to ether go to your enemies or bring them to you, or the gauntlets that let you set up bombs. The idea that you can equip weapons on your feet might be stupid for story purposes but when it comes to game play they are a fantastic concept that add an extra layer for combat.
The Wicked Weaves. If you don't think those are fantastic then I can't help but question your tastes. They are a fantastic idea for gameplay mechanics that allow you to land a blow from many a distance and they just add a satisfying crunch.
Bayonetta also has a huge number of accessories, all which can dramatically change the way you play the game which is very unique to this game as well, 12 total but really only 10 should count so I'm only counting the 10. Their functions are all different, ranging from protection to time manipulation and enemy aggression.
The game has plenty of ways to do plenty of things. Combos functions are available that let you send your opponent up, down or flying forward, all which can be done in the ground or in the air, and also have dedicated moves to pull off the same effect, like stinger, and high time (Which, again, can both also be done mid air). If an enemy is all the way at the other end there are plenty of ways to get to 'em, panther dash, teleport, whip them to you, whip to them, fly, do a few flips in the air, there are more options for mobility here than anywhere else, have they been done before? Yeah, all of them, none of them are unique, but this it the only game where they are all available. You want to launch an enemy up in the air while you are in mid air? You can here, i can think of two different ways of the top of my head, and those top players can provably think of two dozen more, I've seen them. There are choices galore in this game, they might not be unique but you will hardly find such wealth of tools and options else where in the genre.
There are moves, plenty of them (and functions). I don't mean Combos, combos are more than one button input in succession, I mean moves, like stinger, the dodge moves (postal kick and witch twist, which is like an upercut), torture attacks, the instant foot slam and punch, the slide kick, that flying kick that goes up (as opposed to the traditional one we all know that only goes down), and punishments. There is also the taunt, when you taunt that actually does something to the enemy behavior, I actually visually see a change in aggression, so no longer does it only add to the 'style' meter and to the 'DT' but it actually has an effect on opponents. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Bayonetta the first game where you could dodge in mid air? Then there is the dodge offset. I better let someone else explain it:
So, yeah, it's not all unique and new but that in no way shape or form devalues the quality of the game and it's accomplishments. They didn't just go rip off DMC3 put in a dress and called it a night, they thought about it, they build it, they polished the gameplay and they delivered. This game has just as much of Viewtiful Joe and Okami as it does DMC and I stand by my statement that oversimplifying and dismissing it as a 'DMC clone in a dress,' if you will, is an unfair disservice to it an it's creators and I do believe it pushed the genre forward with it responsive controls, fast action, a$$holish difficulty, and just the biggest arsenal of moves, weapons, accessories, and combos I've ever seen. My guess is that people are playing this game like it was a DMC game, it's not and it shouldn't be approached as one.
Alright, so by this argument if the game brings nothing new to the table it qualifies as been not a good game since apparently it no longer deserves credit for what it does right, however if you want to know what it does to push the genre forward I'll see if I can oblige with an answer.
As I said the game has variety and choice, meaning that there are plenty of things that can be done and many tools to choose from.
As it stands Bayonetta has the longest list of weapons in any hack and slash that I know of with 10 different kinds and variations of a select few (numbering at around 15), all which can be mixed and matched. The weapons all share a long list of combos, again, the longest one I've seen in a hack and slash, but the weapons still manage to have more unique functions than most other games would with the given material, for example Odette (the ice skates) change how she moves around, some weapons require dramatically different timing to pull of the same combo (ex, Sai-Fung, the nun chucks and Killgore, the bazookas). All weapons have a charge/hold the attack button function. A lot of said weapons have more than one use, like the whip that allows you to ether go to your enemies or bring them to you, or the gauntlets that let you set up bombs. The idea that you can equip weapons on your feet might be stupid for story purposes but when it comes to game play they are a fantastic concept that add an extra layer for combat.
The Wicked Weaves. If you don't think those are fantastic then I can't help but question your tastes. They are a fantastic idea for gameplay mechanics that allow you to land a blow from many a distance and they just add a satisfying crunch.
Bayonetta also has a huge number of accessories, all which can dramatically change the way you play the game which is very unique to this game as well, 12 total but really only 10 should count so I'm only counting the 10. Their functions are all different, ranging from protection to time manipulation and enemy aggression.
The game has plenty of ways to do plenty of things. Combos functions are available that let you send your opponent up, down or flying forward, all which can be done in the ground or in the air, and also have dedicated moves to pull off the same effect, like stinger, and high time (Which, again, can both also be done mid air). If an enemy is all the way at the other end there are plenty of ways to get to 'em, panther dash, teleport, whip them to you, whip to them, fly, do a few flips in the air, there are more options for mobility here than anywhere else, have they been done before? Yeah, all of them, none of them are unique, but this it the only game where they are all available. You want to launch an enemy up in the air while you are in mid air? You can here, i can think of two different ways of the top of my head, and those top players can provably think of two dozen more, I've seen them. There are choices galore in this game, they might not be unique but you will hardly find such wealth of tools and options else where in the genre.
There are moves, plenty of them (and functions). I don't mean Combos, combos are more than one button input in succession, I mean moves, like stinger, the dodge moves (postal kick and witch twist, which is like an upercut), torture attacks, the instant foot slam and punch, the slide kick, that flying kick that goes up (as opposed to the traditional one we all know that only goes down), and punishments. There is also the taunt, when you taunt that actually does something to the enemy behavior, I actually visually see a change in aggression, so no longer does it only add to the 'style' meter and to the 'DT' but it actually has an effect on opponents. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Bayonetta the first game where you could dodge in mid air? Then there is the dodge offset. I better let someone else explain it:
So, yeah, it's not all unique and new but that in no way shape or form devalues the quality of the game and it's accomplishments. They didn't just go rip off DMC3 put in a dress and called it a night, they thought about it, they build it, they polished the gameplay and they delivered. This game has just as much of Viewtiful Joe and Okami as it does DMC and I stand by my statement that oversimplifying and dismissing it as a 'DMC clone in a dress,' if you will, is an unfair disservice to it an it's creators and I do believe it pushed the genre forward with it responsive controls, fast action, a$$holish difficulty, and just the biggest arsenal of moves, weapons, accessories, and combos I've ever seen. My guess is that people are playing this game like it was a DMC game, it's not and it shouldn't be approached as one.
The Final Offer
Well-known Member
I'm simply telling you, the game was hyped up like OOOH THE REAL DMC CREATOAARRZZ.
It released and well the guy did everything to make the game sale. To me he sold out. She would've been just fine without stripping or the sexual innuendos. Could've really given us a strong female character instead we got the giraffe witch stripper.
The game is fun though. Even more fun without sound.
So don't waste your breath. I've had enough time with it to come up with the conclusion that it belonged back in the store I bought it from.
What you can talk about is how Bayonetta was picked up by Nintendo and not the consoles it came out for.
berto
I Saw the Devil
Yeah, i remember that. Sega wanted to market it as such and because of how 'poorly' it did (Even though 2 million copies isn't a bad number) Nintendo had the chance to steal the sequel.
The sexual innuendos were not a selling point. Something that ridiculous was all for jest and it's pretty strange that people didn't pick up on it. The same thing happened with the innuendos in Okami.
HA! That's pretty funny.
The Final Offer
Well-known Member
Steal the sequel? I believe they wanted something that'd bring in older audiences because the Wii U/Nintendo doesn't have much of anything mature.
There's a reason Sony and MS said no. That kind of game is centered around objectifying women.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Not to nitpick, but most of Bayo's firearms follow the same exact moveset as Scarborough Fair, with differing degrees of power and how many shots she looses on a held attack >.> So..not quite as many weapons as you're touting.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
It's as Tameen said; "Over the top and insane. And that's what it does well at doing."
mrrandomlulz
Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
... Teal, Dragon,Hassan, you guys are better than this.
You guys lose your **** if we so much as criticize Tameem, but you guys can openly lambast Kamiya?
Next time you guys call out a skeptic for being biased towards DmC, I am going to link this thread
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
It's not that you criticize Tameem, it's that you keep trying to blame him for things that he didn't do or say.
berto
I Saw the Devil
i think the best thing to do now is to stick to the original topic rather than pose our opinions on bayonetta. yes, it's very much related since it displays what he has to offer in the gameplay and development deparment but the way we are going at it we really have gone off track to an entirely different subject.
Teal
A self-diagnosed misanthrope
No, no, no, the two occassions I openly protected Tameem is that time when people started giving him and NT **** for Dante's new design, even though it was Capcom who requested them to change it into a more realistic one, and of course those many moments where they used the wig scene to blame him for the "disappointment" that came out as DmC.
In the other hand, I never blamed Kamiya for not doing his job right, like you did with Antoniades, because that would be a lie. I mostly hate that guy because he is straight up an immature prick. Seriously, I beg you to check out this guy's Twitter account, or even ask him a question related to his previous projects (especially DMC). He still is holding a grudge to Capcom because they decided to replace him with Itsuno. For ****'s sake, he is 40 years old, has a job and has directed many good if not excellent games since he made it out of Capcom. Why can't he just let go of it?!
berto
I Saw the Devil
i know, i mentioned that, but there still are 15 different weapons, 10 unique so lets say 10, that share a combo list doesn't diminish the number of weapons. dmc has a similar set up, sans one button here or there, but it's a legitimate design choice.
mrrandomlulz
Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
It's still hypocritical.
Saying Tameem's PR is bad is no worse than openly LAMBASTING Kamiya AS A PERSON.
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
No...no it's not. Lambasting a person for things they didn't actually do or say is just utter bullsh!t. Lambasting a person because his personality and attitude are off-putting is a different kind of bullsh!t, which ironically is all based on opinion.
If I think Kamiya is a douchenozzle for the kind of person I've seen him be, that's different from you not liking Tameem because you saw he "insulted fans", which I've proven time and again isn't true.
The difference is the context. Sure, lambasting someone is still just petty, but the reason behind the lambasting has to be taken into account.
berto
I Saw the Devil
Does any of that matter?
Think about it now, after all that bad PR NT had and all the tweets Kamiya made telling people to f*ck off and go pester Capcom, does any of that matter? These people have the right to bitch, moan, and nag all they want in their personal spaces and the only reason I can think of that it would, in any way shape or form affect us is if said behaviors interfered with their products?
I don't like this game.
Why not?
Because the director is a c*#t.
How does that affect the game?
As long as these bastards are delivering the product and making good I don't see how their personal attitudes in their private time come in to play in the least.
Yes, these men are professionals who represent a company and represent a product and their behavior reflects on them, their colleagues, their products, and quite possibly and industry, but when we start chasing them to the confines of their personal time we are now dealing with them as people and not professionals so for us to sit here and make demands of them from their personal behaviors when they our only interest in them is the work they do is nothing more than nit picking. So, if our only interest in these men is their work then we should focus on how well they do it and not how they behave since it will not have any direct impact on the products they make.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
I dont care what you say about Tameen. So sorry I speak my mind. -__-
The Final Offer
Well-known Member
Didn't we talk about this already?
I thought we straightened that guy out.
If you're going to criticize Tameem. Then please, quote what you're going to criticize. I'm betting it's something you "thought" he said.
I thought we straightened that guy out.
If you're going to criticize Tameem. Then please, quote what you're going to criticize. I'm betting it's something you "thought" he said.
berto
I Saw the Devil
I'm sure it's what he wants however the reality of the situation is simply too strong against this to ever come true. Capcom runs things by the numbers, they are provably looking at Bayonetta's sales rathen than it's performance to determine weather or not allowing him to take the reigns for a second time. He can dream it all he wants but I don't think it's ganna happen.