Well Steve Rogers Was a Hydra Agent All Along

[Demi-fiend]

btssilence says:

Making Cap a Hydra double agent and Red Skull a thinly-veiled Trump caricature is quite literally Marvel's way of telling their readership that American values and conservatism are evil. This is Orwellian doublethink in no uncertain terms without even the slightest attempt made to hide the true intent.

 

[Jak]

i do feel like i need to remind many of you that comics are "long form" story telling. that more or less means that weird **** happens to these characters all the time. however, with that said, it should also be noted that characters are often brought back to their original status quos.

*coff*

*coff*

oh, and we can't forget...

and guess what...all these things were later undone, and these characters were taken back to their original status quos...

 

[Foxtrot94]

all these things were later undone, and these characters were taken back to their original status quos...

Which makes them meaningless, doesn't it? So how's that good storytelling?

 

[Foxtrot94]

It's good storytelling because it gets the readers reading more.

That's... that's not what defines good storytelling. Not ONLY, at least. You also have to make sure it makes sense for the character and is consistent, coherent. Otherwise, it's nothing more than shock value, cheap. It does get people's interest, but that alone doesn't mean it's good storytelling. It means it's good business decision, maybe, cause people are gonna buy the comics to see how it evolves.

But hey, you never know, maybe we do need to calm down a bit and see what they have in store for Cap in the future. Maybe they WILL make it sensible for the character. If they do, I'll take back what I said. Till then though, I'm sticking by it.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Why isn't good storytelling, because you don't agree with it. Because it's something you wouldn't do.

Oh yeah. Indeed. That's why. #sarcasm

Have you read it, are you going to read it or just wait & read everyone else's reactionslater down the line & then side with whomever that has the same outlook you had from the start.

Ehhhh no, cause when I first expressed my opinion here, I hadn't read anything about other people's reactions to the news. It happened that a friend of mine, while I was doing my homework, messaged me just giving me the link to the news and saying "READ. DUM - DUM - DUUUUUUM!". I got curious, read the piece, tought it was bullshit, posted. Just because the majority has a certain opinion, doesn't mean EVERYONE who agrees with that opinion does so BECAUSE it's the majority, you know.

 

[Jak]

Which makes them meaningless, doesn't it? So how's that good storytelling?

okay. allow me to correct myself. not ALL status quos revert back to what they once were. there are actually MANY cases where the characters or the universe are permanently changed after a story arc

jason todd stayed dead for decades until he was brought back to life and became a supervillain

while clark DID come back, the events AFTER his death affected the DC universe in a major way, with 4 supermen coming forward claiming to be the second coming of superman (well...technically 3), and it lead to the annialiation of green lantern's city, and hal jordan goign crazy, killing everybody in the green lantern corps, and then killing himself...all because of this

has stayed dead, and made spider-man a relatively "darker" character

lost his company in this story arc. of course he got it back, but he quit drinking after this. and that changed the character a lot

in short, most of these major "shake ups" for these individual characters don't last long, but the consequences of their actions affect the universe, and the characters around them. altering the state of the comic that they're a part of, and the universe they live in.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Jak
But see, I got nothing against a twist that makes sense for the character(s), like the one with Batman and Jason, or Spiderman. Those you mentioned didn't feel as massively contradictory to those characters as this one with Captain America. That is why I'm saying they need to really come up with something smart to justify it. If they do, then it's to be reconsidered, but right now, it really seems forced BS to me. I'll see how this develops but that's how I feel right now.

 

[Jak]

@Jak
But see, I got nothing against a twist that makes sense for the character(s), like the one with Batman and Jason, or Spiderman. Those you mentioned didn't feel as massively contradictory to those characters as this one with Captain America. That is why I'm saying they need to really come up with something smart to justify it. If they do, then it's to be reconsidered, but right now, it really seems forced BS to me. I'll see how this develops but that's how I feel right now.

that's totally fair. i would say give it at least 2 more issues. because the first is usually just the set up to tell the rest of the story. but if the proceeding issues are still bullshit, then you and everybody else are justified in their anger

 

[Foxtrot94]

i would say give it at least 2 more issues

Yeah it's what I said, I'll see how it develops and if it turns out to make sense, I'll take everything back. As I said, I'm telling how I feel right now.

 

[Demi-fiend]

http://screenrant.com/james-gunn-captain-america-comics-hydra/

“If you’re a forty-year-old dude claiming a comics company ruined your childhood because of a plot twist, you might consider that your childhood really wasn’t that great to begin with.”

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

So, thanks to a buddy posting this on FB, I think it's safe to say that Cap probably isn't an actual agent of Hydra...I guess we'll just have to wait and see for sure, though. If this theory is correct, then cool. If not...I still don't like it, but it's simple enough to pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Meg]

I don't really think it's all that unexpected either.
Captain america has been dealing with Hydra for like ever...........blah blah blah it doesn't seem all that unexpected or shocking to me.

Well I can tell you aren't a fan of his and don't know anything about him.

@Rebel Dynasty I've been seeing some interesting fan theories crop up that could be what is really going on. The one you posted definitely makes sense. If something along those lines end up being what is really going on, then that's cool and all. But it also means the writer outright lied to us for shock value. Which also isn't cool. Though bad PR is so common in nerd culture like comics and games it is hardly surprising. :facepalm:

 

[Meg]

I already told people i wasn't.
He has dealt with Hydra a few times before has he not ?
So Hydra & him not that big of a surprise for me.

But That's the point of this to get people who aren't so interested in Captain america to be interested, to pick up the books because this is such a shock something a little out of left field.
And at this point it has my interests.

That doesn't make sense. Hydra and Cap are mortal enemies and have been since the character was created. It makes no sense to say Cap being a Hydra agent isn't shocking because they've been fighting one another for decades.

And plus, if you don't know much about the character to begin with, then how can you really say anything about him is surprising or not? Makes no sense.

 

[Meg]

And how is that not shocking.
The absolute perfect character to betray everyone, the one person that's been a friend, a teammate, symbol of justice.
How does that not make sense to turn the man who stood against Hydra into the man that's actually been standing with them.

Because it completely contradicts everything that came before. We are talking about 75 years of character history down the toilet. It doesn't make sense for Cap to have been secreting working with Hydra all along considering the number of times he's stopped them. And it doesn't make sense for the writers to up and decide he's a Hydra agent now because there was nothing over the past 75 years that even so much as hinted about his true allegiance. They did it purely for shock value and to drum up attention, which is also dumb because shock value wears off and then you're left with disgruntled fans and any new readers will eventually lose interest too. Long term there really isn't any benefit.

Are you serious.
The name Captain America alone gives a bit of an understanding of who he is & what he fought for.
That's like having no clue what The Justice League fights for when the name kinda gives it away.

Besides i know who Captain america is i'm just not a follower as he isn't my favorite Marvel character, i like him better in the movies though.

Completely serious. It doesn't sound like you understand the character at all. You really can't hide behind "his name is Captain America so there you go." That doesn't demonstrate anything more than surface knowledge.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I'm going to look at the worst case scenario -- in case RD's post ends up not being um... accurate.

----

Hydra has always been known for deep cover tactics and striking when least expected.

In that sense, Cap joining early might not be as crazy as one might believe. No one (in Hydra) knew he would end up being Captain America (unless they predicted the future somehow).

Doing odd jobs for Hydra (before the super formula program) behind the scenes is just another day in the life for a undernourished Hydra agent.

Being chosen for the super program was a random event that worked in Hydra's favor.

----

Make both sides battle each other to distract their enemies from their true goal. The other Hydra agents who lost against Cap (and even Red Skull) was all just Kabuki theater to make the other side think that they were winning.

So, this might mean that there was a deeper Hydra within the first Hydra.

----

In politics, both demorats and duckservatives serve the all-encompassing War Party.

Nothing happens within a vacuum (not even comics) -- if something like this happens in real life, then it would stand to reason that it would happen in comics sooner or later.

----

The fact that people refuse to accept that something like this might happen only goes to show how deep within their own personal, biased reality they really are.

 

[Meg]

I'm going to look at the worst case scenario -- in case RD's post ends up not being um... accurate.

----

Hydra has always been known for deep cover tactics and striking when least expected.

In that sense, Cap joining early might not be as crazy as one might believe. No one (in Hydra) knew he would end up being Captain America (unless they predicted the future somehow).

Doing odd jobs for Hydra (before the super formula program) behind the scenes is just another day in the life for a undernourished Hydra agent.

Being chosen for the super program was a random event that worked in Hydra's favor.

----

Make both sides battle each other to distract from their true goal. The other Hydra agents who lost against Cap (and even Red Skull) was all just Kabuki theater to make the other side think that they were winning.

----

In politics, both demorats and duckservatives serve the all-encompassing War Party.

Nothing happens within a vacuum (not even comics) -- if something like this happens in real life, then it would stand to reason that it would happen in comics sooner or later.

----

The fact that people refuse to accept it only goes to show how deep within their own personal, biased reality they really are.

Except he wouldn't have been the right fit for the super soldier program if he was secretly a Hydra agent. The whole reason while the formula worked for him and hasn't worked as well for anyone else since is because of who Steve is. He was already an incredible, morally upstanding person to begin with. So if he was actually a Hydra agent, then the procedure shouldn't have been successful.

Cap also wouldn't have been able to lift Thor's hammer.

It's not about people living in their own biased reality. It's people smelling sh*t and knowing it stinks.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Cap also wouldn't have been able to lift Thor's hammer.

Didn't the god from Black Panther say that Dr. Doom was the best option to lead the world? I think there's a similar scenario going on here.

 

[Meg]

​

Didn't the god from Black Panther say that Dr. Doom was the best option to lead the world? I think there's a similar scenario going on here.

I don't know anything about Black Panther.

But the kind of person who is worthy to lift Thor's hammer is pretty clear. Secret Hydra agent doesn't fit at all.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I think it does if Cap has his own noble agenda behind that.

The gubbermint has always been a corrupt entity -- Cap is probably revealing himself now because he sees that it's time to execute that part of his plan.

 

[Meg]

All right well I'm going to bow out of this conversation as it's clearly going nowhere. If you like it and think it's a great idea, then that's on you. I personally don't get it, and no I don't want predictability (that whole dimension z thing was awesome). But hey, you like what you like. But I better not see you throwing a tantrum the next time someone destroys a character or game you really like and arguing tooth and nail with anyone who does like it. That would be hypocritical.