Vergil - Portrait of a Warrior

[Viper]

Who'd feel pity for Arkham? Man murdered a woman that loved him and stayed with him no matter what, just because he lusted for power.
I'd say Vergil was even too nice with how he thought he killed him. :devil:

 

[TWOxACROSS]

But if this goes by the assumption that Vergil saw the betrayal coming. As I've said, that labels Arkham as dishonorable in his eyes, thus rules like giving an honorable death would no longer apply.

I'm going by what Vergil said immediately after stabbing the guy. It's not even about honorable deaths (I said no such thing) that's something a dying person cares about (preserving their dignity), it's the complete lack of wont for a fair fight. For someone who is supposedly so enamored with the idea of honor, Vergil doesn't follow any of what it actually means.

Killing someone because you have no use for them and to get rid of them before they betray you has nothing to do with honor, it's getting rid of garbage.

Who'd feel pity for Arkham? Man murdered a woman that loved him and stayed with him no matter what, just because he lusted for power.
I'd say Vergil was even too nice with how he thought he killed him. :devil:

Ultimately, Arkham died doing what he loved...being a blob...

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

My headcanon theory is that Nelo speaks to Dante telepathically.

Kind of how like Raziel can speak to Kain despite having no tongue, bottom jaw, or even vocal chords. They either manipulate the air molecules around them, or they communicate through mere thought alone.

I could PM you the entire (novel-sized and now obsolete) theory if you want.

Do it.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Do it.

It'll take a while. Hold on.

 

[Veloran]

Also - I would love for someone to toss some actual points at me instead of saying I'm just wrong on my own point.

"Since many of the greater devils appearing in literature were once greater angels, it's not surprising that this black knight is called Nelo Angelo, the 'black angel'. It is said that he fights his enemies fairly and squarely, a rarity in a warrior from hell. If he is truly a practitioner of honor, why does he follow the Dark Power?"

Straight up from the original Devil May Cry manual, no confusion on Dante's part here.

However, that's why the initial products, the games, take precedence over all else, even if they tend to contradict each other in certain ways.

You're going to need to give a source for something like that man.

You taking in all new information is surely alright, no one can stop you after all, but given the contradictory and non-canonical nature of a lot of the supplemental material, it's just a little hard to swallow.

Very little of DMC's non-game media has ever been declared non-canon. Frankly, it's pretty much just the first book. Even if something contradicts or isn't perfectly consistent with the games, it's canon as long as it's officially published material.

The first volume of the manga seems to have come out after the first game. Special Edition may have come out a bit after the second volume (dates are fuzzy, half my library is back home :/),

Special Edition came out in 2006, the second volume came out in Japan in 2005. Also, their meeting was in the first volume, not the second.

but Special Edition takes the concept of Vergil and Arkham's meeting, not directly takes it from the manga. If it was a direct takeaway, there would have been that demon lady that Vergil killed,

The dialogue of that scene was basically a summarized and cut down version of the dialogue in the manga. The main difference is that rather than show Arkham's affiliation with Demons via the Demon lady, he delivered his little speech while stepping into Vergil's sword.

and then it moves directly into Vergil standing at the base of Temen-ni-gru, no quest of unlocking seals that's depicted in the manga. Man...still wish those volumes would have continued, honestly :/ Maybe it would have explained the "It's been a year since we last met" line.

It does explain that line. The two meet in volume 2, then part ways again and a year passes while Vergil unlocks the seals. There's a whole year's timeskip between Vergil's first cutscene in 3SE and his second.

Also, just a random thought because of the comic panels shown. For some reason I had always thought of Nelo Angelo's face as just being a faceplate on his helmet >.< I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of it being an actual face. Maybe it's because it never shows emotion...?

Vergil only suspected he would, he didn't suspect how.

It wasn't really a suspicion. In the manga they both basically say that they'd kill the other the moment their bargain came to an end. Arkham's part was just the first to go.

 

[Innsmouth]

Dante incorrectly uses a term and we just have to believe it? Guts maybe, but respect for a fair fight doesn't necessarily denote concepts of honor. We barely see enough of Nelo Angelo as it is, not enough to justify saying such a thing, or to corroborate that he actually is a person with honorable intentions.

Yeahhh….the game is wrong and you is right. Do your think anybody buying it? Also it's you who incorrectly uses word honour. Honour is not about respect to each and anyone.

g of Arkham being killed by Vergil, it's that the supposedly honorable Vergil who cares for the art of warfare above all else foregoes all formal engagement of having an honorable fight and simply attacks the guy when he is incapable of defending himself (a far cry from Nelo Angelo snappin' a door open to give him and Dante a decent place to duel)

Arkham never posed any danger? After he threw Dante across his room with one hand? After his teleporting around in his confrontation with Lady? Arkham was dangerous. Seriously it was obviously tat it's either him or Arkham. He was just faster than Arkham to make his first move. And Arkham planned it form the start. Its obvious and it wasn't killing of helpless man. It was disposing of rival who backstabbed him sooner or later.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

Got anymore scans? I had some but I lost them

 

[LordOfDarkness]

Seriously guys can we please try to move on from this?

You're all allowed to give your own opinion. And like I stated earlier, how you take a character mostly comes down to your own perception.

Why does it honestly matter so much if some of you think he is or isn't honorable? When again, much like anything else, that's how you view something for yourself. I wouldn't say that in a circumstance where we have a character that goes through various things, like Vergil, you can simply define him and conceive him as being a set way. He's a character and therefore just like a story, he changes in the same way as that story and from what he goes through can be construed in a magnitude of ways from everybody's own standpoint. Nothing truly ever grants a story, character or anything else a perfectly crystal clear image that's meant to be envisioned the same way from everybody. A story is what your imagination allows it to be within its own limits, therefore your way of seeing things will and can differ from how someone else sees things.

So please can we just settle this by agreeing to disagree? Instead of continuing this for the next 20 pages of back and forth "Here's my take on the same thing we've been going over for the last week now".

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Straight up from the original Devil May Cry manual, no confusion on Dante's part here.

Well see, that's nice to have. It's as canon as Woozy! God, I get a kick out of that name. Anyway, that takes care of Nelo Angelo a bit, but that's still more just respect for the fight (and respect it totally is), there isn't much other instance of actual care for honor, especially not looking directly at Vergil in DMC3.

You're going to need to give a source for something like that man.

Source on what? That the games take precedence over all? That how it goes, because they are the only things that can truly be said to be inherently connected. That's why everything else is supplemental merchandise.

Very little of DMC's non-game media has ever been declared non-canon. Frankly, it's pretty much just the first book. Even if something contradicts or isn't perfectly consistent with the games, it's canon as long as it's officially published material.

And why is just the first book rendered non-canon? Where's the source on that...?

Special Edition came out in 2006, the second volume came out in Japan in 2005. Also, their meeting was in the first volume, not the second.

The dialogue of that scene was basically a summarized and cut down version of the dialogue in the manga. The main difference is that rather than show Arkham's affiliation with Demons via the Demon lady, he delivered his little speech while stepping into Vergil's sword.

Bleh, sorry forgot. Still, it took a small idea from the manga, but if the manga is to accepted as canon, there's a lot of rather unpleasant implications for the characters, like Vergil continuing to be a huge and ruthless jerk.

It does explain that line. The two meet in volume 2, then part ways again and a year passes while Vergil unlocks the seals. There's a whole year's timeskip between Vergil's first cutscene in 3SE and his second.

How the hell hard is it to put a timestamp on that crap :/ Because it sure as hell doesn't seem like it.

Yeahhh….the game is wrong and you is right. Do your think anybody buying it? Also it's you who incorrectly uses word honour. Honour is not about respect to each and anyone.

I am not going to argue the definition of a word with you, again. Honor is completely about respect, for people or (outdated) societal concepts. You are wrong.

Arkham never posed any danger? After he threw Dante across his room with one hand? After his teleporting around in his confrontation with Lady? Arkham was dangerous. Seriously it was obviously tat it's either him or Arkham. He was just faster than Arkham to make his first move. And Arkham planned it form the start. Its obvious and it wasn't killing of helpless man. It was disposing of rival who backstabbed him sooner or later.

Arkham only posed a danger to two tired and bloodied half-demons and a human woman. That was his plan, because he knew as a mere human with demonic power he couldn't stand up him at full power. He says so during his monologue after trouncing the brothers and Lady; "Therefore, my job was to make you battle each other in order to weaken you." He was a nuisance at most, and only a threat when the brothers were weakened. Hell, even when they were weakened he couldn't finish them off.

Like any of the demons that stood in Vergil's way, he cut down Arkham all the same, for being in his way.

=================

EDIT: A second behind you Lordy. Sorreh. I'm out!

 

[Chancey289]

Seriously guys can we please try to move on from this?

You're all allowed to give your own opinion. And like I stated earlier, how you take a character mostly comes down to your own perception.

Why does it honestly matter so much if some of you think he is or isn't honorable? When again, much like anything else, that's how you view something for yourself. I wouldn't say that in a circumstance where we have a character that goes through various things, like Vergil, you can simply define him and conceive him as being a set way. He's a character and therefore just like a story, he changes in the same way as that story and from what he goes through can be construed in a magnitude of ways from everybody's own standpoint. Nothing truly ever grants a story, character or anything else a perfectly crystal clear image that's meant to be envisioned the same way from everybody. A story is what your imagination allows it to be within its own limits, therefore your way of seeing things will and can differ from how someone else sees things.

So please can we just settle this by agreeing to disagree? Instead of continuing this for the next 20 pages of back and forth "Here's my take on the same thing we've been going over for the last week now".

They're not veering off topic doe. Just saying man. This is kinda about Vergil in general.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

They're not veering off topic doe. Just saying man. This is kinda about Vergil in general.

I'm not saying that they are, Chance. I'm just sort of saying that it still seems a little bit like "Hey, I'm right and you aren't". When really, it doesn't matter because everyone will perceive a character how they want. This thread, much like many others before, is going in a direction that could possibly get worse therefore to try to defuse any potential situation I'm urging that people try to be more compliant to others opinions.

Please continue your discussion guys, but respectably.

 

[Innsmouth]

I am not going to argue the definition of a word with you, again. Honor is completely about respect, for people or (outdated) societal concepts. You are wrong.

Took the dictionary and look it up. Wait i even do it for you. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor
Here maybe it teaches you basic word meaning you repeatedly ignore.
honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. You misusing words meaning to push your fiction through

I'm not gonna continue this argument, because obviously there is nothing to debate here, but I just say, that if still pushes your opinion down someone's throat, and than runs away, you shouldn't start this argument in the first place :/


And hell I can't ignore this: "Like any of the demons that stood in Vergil's way, he cut down Arkham all the same, for being in his way." Only he left both Dante and Lady alive despite he had possibility to kill them. He killed Arkham, because he was lying backstabbing bastard who got what he deserved.

 

[Veloran]

That's why everything else is supplemental merchandise.

Why would supplementary material even be produced if it wasn't canon?

And why is just the first book rendered non-canon?

DMC3 basically overrode everything about it.

Bleh, sorry forgot. Still, it took a small idea from the manga, but if the manga is to accepted as canon, there's a lot of rather unpleasant implications for the characters, like Vergil continuing to be a huge and ruthless jerk.

He killed some street punks. That's the worst I can really say in relation to the manga.

How the hell hard is it to put a timestamp on that crap :/ Because it sure as hell doesn't seem like it.

A "one year later" popup would be really weird for anyone just playing the game for their first time.

I am not going to argue the definition of a word with you, again. Honor is completely about respect, for people or (outdated) societal concepts. You are wrong.

By that very page's definitions, Vergil is honorable. He embodies 1, at least thinks he's 2, and works for both 3 and 5. Even ignoring all the others, 1 is Vergil to a T.

 

[Chancey289]

Ugh. If I facepalm any harder right now, I'll give myself a concussion.

Are some of you for real?

 

[WolfOD64]

Oh my goodness.
We have to look up the dictionary definition for 'honor' to determine whether or not Vergil is honorable or not.

This is actually hilarious.

 

[Gel]

So, if @Veloran is right and DMC3 manga happens simultaneously with DMC3 game, DMC4 SE happens before manga.
DMC4 SE starts with V not knowing why his father is venerated and ends with him wanting to be venerated like his father.
If he hated humanity, why he wanted to be venerated by them?Nobody wants to be a hero for someone they hated.V wants to be humanity's ultimate savior, so rising the tower is seen by him as a necessary evil, the suffering to end with all suffering.
Am I right?

And partially related:
Instead of us discussing if V is or not honorable, we should ask " Does he believe to be a man of honor?"
The answer would be yes.

 

[Chancey289]

So, if @Veloran is right and DMC3 manga happens simultaneously with DMC3 game, DMC4 SE happens before manga.
DMC4 SE starts with V not knowing why his father is venerated and ends with him wanting to be venerated like his father.
If he hated humanity, why he wanted to be venerated by them?Nobody wants to be a hero for someone they hated.V wants to be humanity's ultimate savior, so rising the tower is seen by him as a necessary evil, the suffering to end with all suffering.
Am I right?

And partially related:
Instead of us discussing if V is or not honorable, we should ask " Does he believe to be a man of honor?"
The answer would be yes.

Vergil's an idiot then and needs to be smacked in the face with a dictionary.

The point still stands, Vergil isn't honorable. End of story. He's a sociopath. This whole debate shouldn't have even gone on this long.

 

[Viper]

So, if @Veloran is right and DMC3 manga happens simultaneously with DMC3 game, DMC4 SE happens before manga.
DMC4 SE starts with V not knowing why his father is venerated and ends with him wanting to be venerated like his father.
If he hated humanity, why he wanted to be venerated by them?Nobody wants to be a hero for someone they hated.V wants to be humanity's ultimate savior, so rising the tower is seen by him as a necessary evil, the suffering to end with all suffering.
Am I right?

And partially related:
Instead of us discussing if V is or not honorable, we should ask " Does he believe to be a man of honor?"
The answer would be yes.

Mind if I jump in? So you have something else to answer to besides a person with dire need to learn some tact.

You've already seen the first draft of this answer, but no point in keeping it from other people. From all the points I've seen, I think Vergil falls somewhere real close to Sanctus.
Sanctus is a man that dreamed of being the savior to humanity, the next Sparda in way that people will look up to him as the one that freed them of danger. While his ultimate goal was honorable, who wouldn't love to walk down the street without risking a blade in the back, his methods were not. He is basically blinding himself to his own faults, and to all the victims of demons his subordinate had released, for the sake of ultimate goal.
Vergil too dreams of a world where he will be next Sparda, where demon threat is either eradicated or put under strict control of his mighty hand. But him too is using the excuse of goal justifying the means. In his proximity to actual honor, he is actually closer than Sanctus, as Vergil was always open about his plans and attacked openly (no secret poisoning of an old, unsuspecting person, no keeping hostages).
So yeah, Vergil might not be a pure definition of honorable, but he tried.

 

[Veloran]

So, if @Veloran is right and DMC3 manga happens simultaneously with DMC3 game, DMC4 SE happens before manga.
DMC4 SE starts with V not knowing why his father is venerated and ends with him wanting to be venerated like his father.

The manga is set a year before DMC3. 4SE might take place before even that, who knows.

If he hated humanity,

It doesn't seem like he does. He thinks they're weak maybe, but hate is going too far.

V wants to be humanity's ultimate savior, so rising the tower is seen by him as a necessary evil, the suffering to end with all suffering.

Seems about right.

The point still stands, Vergil isn't honorable. End of story. He's a sociopath. This whole debate shouldn't have even gone on this long.

Except as Two pointed out, Vergil literally does fit the definition of honorable. Dismissing that by saying "Ha, you have to look up what honor means to apply it to Vergil!" is nonsensical when it actually works.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Vergil isn't honorable. End of story. He's a sociopath. This whole debate shouldn't have even gone on this long.

You should already know by now that the fans will always feel the inexplicable need to...

... defend his honor.