Shipping: How far is too far?
- Thread starter DragonMaster2010
- Start date
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
This exactly. I couldn't care less what people ship in their heads or in their stories--it's just when it blows up to the proportion of threatening the actors and creators of said show, game, book, etc. that go far beyond the pale.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
I remember that, too. :tongue: It was amusing, to say the least.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Well if that isn't a good example of shipping going too far, I don't know what is.
I'm glad with the Naruhina ship as is, so I could care less what the voice actresses think.
LordOfDarkness
The Dark Avenger © †
I'm pretty much with anybody who said they don't care what people fantasize over as long as they don't go to extreme measures like death threats etc to make their point. There's a fine line between fantasizing about something and obsessing about it.
berto
I Saw the Devil
What kind of psychopath sends death threats to those who don't couple how they want? Imagine for a second that they weren't talking about fictional characters but two random individuals. That'd be insane. Demanding that you go be with a dude and then calling you homophobic and sending death threats to your wife or girlfriend because you tell them that that's just not how you are would qualify you as mentally unstable. You would be send to an institution and the FBI would seriously take a issue with your excessive demand for control of other people's lives. It's seriously sick.
Worse than that is that they are not stopping at the characters, they are harassing the actors as though they thought they somehow had some sort of responsibility to bend to their demands. Being obsessive about shipping is already embarrassing enough but in it of itself is fairly harmless, so, whatever, but this thing? If you actually sat down and wrote a letter/email/correspondence of any kind to an actor or actress threatening to harm, or even kill, them or their family because your ideas of who should be a couple aren't been met then you need to seriously grow the f**** up and should avoid anime. These little death threats may seem to you like more of that 'I can say what I want on the internet' but when you are been handcuffed just remember that 'I didn't mean it' or 'I wasn't really going to do anything' are just not good enough reasons.
Worse than that is that they are not stopping at the characters, they are harassing the actors as though they thought they somehow had some sort of responsibility to bend to their demands. Being obsessive about shipping is already embarrassing enough but in it of itself is fairly harmless, so, whatever, but this thing? If you actually sat down and wrote a letter/email/correspondence of any kind to an actor or actress threatening to harm, or even kill, them or their family because your ideas of who should be a couple aren't been met then you need to seriously grow the f**** up and should avoid anime. These little death threats may seem to you like more of that 'I can say what I want on the internet' but when you are been handcuffed just remember that 'I didn't mean it' or 'I wasn't really going to do anything' are just not good enough reasons.
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Chancey289
Fake Geek Girl.
I ship a lot of things. I ship it like Fed-Ex.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Hey guys.
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...Sasaeng fans.
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...Sasaeng fans.
Director Bison
King of Games
that's like that cut for bieber thing only more extremeHey guys.
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...Sasaeng fans.
(someone said that justin bieber was doing drugs and people should cut themselves to make him stop and some people actually did it)
if some one is so stupid that they physically harm themselfs like that for someone who will most likely never know they exist
then ill just let darwinism do its thing
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Personally, I think it goes too far when the official writers of the show decide that the nice girl of the group should go out with the jerk or dump the nice guy.
This has happened more times than one might think.
Doesn't matter if it's the official writers or not. Shipping is still shipping.
This has happened more times than one might think.
Doesn't matter if it's the official writers or not. Shipping is still shipping.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
Yeah, but if it's their creation, then they have full say in who winds up with whom. We as consumers don't have to like it, but we also don't have the right to tell the creator of said characters what to do with their creations--however odd or screwed up their decisions seem.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
I still say it goes too far.
Besides, when the majority of the fans say no to something, the creators should at least take that into consideration.
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
If they listen to the fans instead of going the direction they originally intended, doesn't that wind up being pandering? Just because the majority says something should or shouldn't be done, doesn't make it right. The fanatics of the tumblr community are proof positive of this.
Edit: To clarify, I don't expect everyone to agree with what I'm saying. It's perfectly fine if they don't; it's their right, just as it is my right to say my piece.
As a creator, I sympathize with others dealing with the conflicting, "you should do this" advice. I've had people (admittedly only a few, thankfully--I'm not even close to being renowned, and it's already starting!) who flat-out expect my characters to have relationships with each other I had never intended them to have, and never will. Suggestions, or stating you think it would be a good match or whatever, is one thing; getting their panties in a knot when it doesn't happen the way they think it should is quite another.
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Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Rebel Dynasty
Creator of Microcosms
Fair enough. Still, many will be dissatisfied, either way.
Dante's Stalker
"Outrun this!"
From a fan pov, yep okay I understand that mindset.
But from a creator pov, m|m.
Really.
Fanbases are great. Shipping is...like whatever. I guess thats their way of adopting and having control over characters and a world they love.
But when fans try to cross the line (you know that wall of fire that separate the audience from the entertainer) I think the creators should be in their full right to pull the finger at them.
Lets just consider here that the creator has put in effort, time, resources, money, blood sweat and tears (and lots of coffee/whiskey) to create their vision. They didn't have to share it with anyone, but they chose to. Every artist knows that they risk being hated, loved, or stalked and threatened by crazy idiots, by putting their work out there.
So when some stupid little mob starts sending death threats because they want x to screw z, despite that NEVER being a reality in the universe the creator has worked so hard on, the creator still has all the power.
They can choose to listen to the fans, but they're more likely to say m|m to them.
They can choose to end their characters.
They can choose to sweep the rug from under the mob and run circles around them, laughing manically,setting said rug on fire and waving it above their heads as they do so.
Crazy obsessed fans are creepy and scary, but they don't hold a candle to a creator out for some trolling revenge. Nobody is as obsessed with a fictional world, with fictional characters, as the creator themselves. Fans fail to realise this. So when fans demand THIS and try to force it, the creator has every right and means to refuse and retaliate, if necessary.
I feel for poor Jensen, though. I wish I could be his bodyguard. His little one is so friggin adorable.
Okay, not bodyguard, I mean babysitter. He'd pay me well, right? It's not like he doesn't have the money._.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
@Dante's Stalker
Look at this way.
If you lose the majority of your fanbase because of something you wrote, and then say "you don't need them," then fine.
However, don't say that you want "more fans to read your work," in the next breath.
You said it yourself:
The Author/Artist does NOT have to share their work.
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When you share your work, you're putting yourself out there to any and all criticism.
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Take Robert Rodriguez:
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Due to a lack of a film crew, he does most of his work himself. He doesn't need a huge film crew, just like a writer doesn't really need an editor (or even a publisher technically) anymore.
If the fans don't like his work, then that's fine. He doesn't need a huge fanbase or a large film crew to get by on his own.
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Same thing with "Dust: An Elysian Tail."
It was mostly created by one guy.
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While I'm not accusing anyone of wanting a huge fanbase, there's a difference between wanting to show off your work a little, and then wanting a bigger fanbase and never listening to any of their valid criticisms.
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Don't want to listen to them because they're "interfering with your work"? Fine. Just don't complain later if a large portion of that fanbase disappears because of one reason or another
If it's for a reason that you believe in, then that's perfectly all right.
But if it's valid criticism and you don't want to listen, then don't insinuate that they don't know what they're talking about with backhanded comments, either.
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Neither of these creators probably neither need nor want a huge fanbase. They just want to entertain a group of like-minded people who think like they do.
They don't care about how many fans (or even fellow crewmembers) out there who they might lose because any creative "disagreements."
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They can work alone. They're just fine without them.
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However, most artists and authors don't think this way. They want the numbers. They want the fans. They want the collective.
However, they don't want their negative feedback. Most creators want all the positive aspects of being well-known, with none of the backlash.
And therein, lies the real problem.
Look at this way.
If you lose the majority of your fanbase because of something you wrote, and then say "you don't need them," then fine.
However, don't say that you want "more fans to read your work," in the next breath.
You said it yourself:
The Author/Artist does NOT have to share their work.
---------
When you share your work, you're putting yourself out there to any and all criticism.
---------
Take Robert Rodriguez:
--------
Due to a lack of a film crew, he does most of his work himself. He doesn't need a huge film crew, just like a writer doesn't really need an editor (or even a publisher technically) anymore.
If the fans don't like his work, then that's fine. He doesn't need a huge fanbase or a large film crew to get by on his own.
--------
Same thing with "Dust: An Elysian Tail."
It was mostly created by one guy.
--------
While I'm not accusing anyone of wanting a huge fanbase, there's a difference between wanting to show off your work a little, and then wanting a bigger fanbase and never listening to any of their valid criticisms.
-------
Don't want to listen to them because they're "interfering with your work"? Fine. Just don't complain later if a large portion of that fanbase disappears because of one reason or another
If it's for a reason that you believe in, then that's perfectly all right.
But if it's valid criticism and you don't want to listen, then don't insinuate that they don't know what they're talking about with backhanded comments, either.
------
Neither of these creators probably neither need nor want a huge fanbase. They just want to entertain a group of like-minded people who think like they do.
They don't care about how many fans (or even fellow crewmembers) out there who they might lose because any creative "disagreements."
------
They can work alone. They're just fine without them.
------
However, most artists and authors don't think this way. They want the numbers. They want the fans. They want the collective.
However, they don't want their negative feedback. Most creators want all the positive aspects of being well-known, with none of the backlash.
And therein, lies the real problem.
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Dante's Stalker
"Outrun this!"
Really?
So maybe this is just a personal thing for me but numbers only count when you need them for accounting reasons. It's nice to have a fanbase but it's not a necessity. Just like it's nice to get reviews for your work but unless it's still in the early stages of 'getting it out there', reviews only hold the power YOU give them.
The work existed before the fanbase. Nobody in their right mind expects everyone to like what they put out. The same applies to an ongoing piece of work that grows like Supernatural. You can't expect to keep the entire fanbase happy all the time. Not when your characters keep evolving and their circumstances keep changing. Yes, you COULD give in to the negative feedback and start to believe that unless you give the fans what they want you're ruined. But that defeats the initial outset of the creator.
See, fans get ****y when creators don't bend to their whim. Why? Because they think they're entitled to an opinion on the creation. Like their love of the creation gives them the right to make demands.
That's the real problem.
You see, when creators buckle to the fanbase, the stuff they produce for fan service sucks. Because they no longer feel the work is theirs. It no longer belongs to them. They're no longer doing it for he love of it.
So maybe this is just a personal thing for me but numbers only count when you need them for accounting reasons. It's nice to have a fanbase but it's not a necessity. Just like it's nice to get reviews for your work but unless it's still in the early stages of 'getting it out there', reviews only hold the power YOU give them.
The work existed before the fanbase. Nobody in their right mind expects everyone to like what they put out. The same applies to an ongoing piece of work that grows like Supernatural. You can't expect to keep the entire fanbase happy all the time. Not when your characters keep evolving and their circumstances keep changing. Yes, you COULD give in to the negative feedback and start to believe that unless you give the fans what they want you're ruined. But that defeats the initial outset of the creator.
See, fans get ****y when creators don't bend to their whim. Why? Because they think they're entitled to an opinion on the creation. Like their love of the creation gives them the right to make demands.
That's the real problem.
You see, when creators buckle to the fanbase, the stuff they produce for fan service sucks. Because they no longer feel the work is theirs. It no longer belongs to them. They're no longer doing it for he love of it.
Demi-fiend
Metempsychosis
Then don't post it online.
Or... don't respond to negative feedback at all.
If you can turn off ratings and comments in youtube, you should be able to do it anywhere else as well.
Or... don't respond to negative feedback at all.
If you can turn off ratings and comments in youtube, you should be able to do it anywhere else as well.
V
Oldschool DMC fan
Agreed. The only time fan service should be necessary, or the fans be allowed to dictate what happens to an extent is if they're paying in advance, and then not always. Kickstarter, Patreon, crowdfunds etc. Even then if I was a fan of someone crowdfunding I'd still not make demands because I'm a fan of their work in that case, not my own ideas. Might as well do my own kickstarter if I want my own things made so badly.
I'm pretty sure the literary greats wrote what they wanted and got their acclaim afterwards, rather than writing fanservice, although there's always a certain amount of writing 'for your readership' involved once well-known. Most big name writers likely feel this pressure, although whether they bend to it is their choice. I like how R. R. Martin put it when fans became rude and started regarding him as a writing machine that exists simply to satisfy them, with a "**** you".
If you worry about being popular and not doing what you want, or about losing fans by doing what you want and not what they want, you'll never get off that ride. Do what you want, if people like it they will follow and respect and if they don't, you didn't need their allegiance anyway. Personally I think that's the difference between art and work (speaking from exp)