Like a Boss - FINAL CONFRONTATION!

[berto]

Welp, I went with the Despair since I don't think anyone else will.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Welp, I went with the Despair since I don't think anyone else will.

But which one would you really have picked?

Or still confused?

 

[Director Bison]

Welp, I went with the Despair since I don't think anyone else will.

well someone has to give Despair some love :thumbsup:

 

[LordOfDarkness]

Welp, I went with the Despair since I don't think anyone else will.

So, it was out of despairation?

 

[Director Bison]

So, it was out of despairation?

 

[berto]

But which one would you really have picked?

Or still confused?

Did you not see my previous post where I stated how I had no idea how I was going to pick between the first 3? Well, that's how I decided, by merit of been unloved.

So, it was out of despairation?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I went with DmC Vergil. I like the symbolism of it for the entire series as a whole; The Beginning of a sibling rivalry that will last forever in the rest of the series, proving that these two no matter the universe, are destined to fight (symbolically considering its alternate universes)

 

[AgentRedgrave]

Extremely torn between Mundus and Vergil, but I pick Vergil just cause DMC3 is my favorite overall
EDIT: Also, as cool as giant monster fights are. I'm the type of guy who just loves a straight up sword fight

these two no matter the universe, are destined to fight (symbolically considering its alternate universes)

You mean kinda like in Flashpoint paradox, where in an alternate timeline Bruce Wayne died instead of his parents.
And his father became Batman, and his mom went insane and became that world's Joker?
Basically no matter what, there would always be a Batman, and there would always be a Joker, and Bruce Wayne would somehow be involved.

 

[WolfOD64]

Is that even a question?
The deity of demonkind, the insurmountable force of nature whose presence was shrouded on an island lost in time and location for thousands of years, who remained the constant enemy of the Sparda Bloodline---and all of his lineage---whose sheer presence creates and undoes demon creations on a whim, a dark shadow that blots out all matter, and literally drags Dante to do battle in time, space, and hell itself...

...or a disgruntled doppelganger whose motives are shrouded in incompetent shoddiness, even in the game's final moments.

This might as well be a competition between a flea and a dragon.

Mundus is the demon of demons, the final obstacle to Dante's journey to surpass his father, and far and away Dante's true nemesis...in every continuity. He almost wins by default.

 

[Director Bison]

Is that even a question?
The deity of demonkind, the insurmountable force of nature whose presence was shrouded on an island lost in time and location for thousands of years, who remained the constant enemy of the Sparda Bloodline---and all of his lineage---whose sheer presence creates and undoes demon creations on a whim, a dark shadow that blots out all matter, and literally drags Dante to do battle in time, space, and hell itself...

...or a disgruntled doppelganger whose motives are shrouded in incompetent shoddiness, even in the game's final moments.

This might as well be a competition between a flea and a dragon.

Mundus is the demon of demons, the final obstacle to Dante's journey to surpass his father, and far and away Dante's true nemesis...in every continuity. He almost wins by default.

is that a real comic or a fan comic
i looks like it was drawn by a Spawn artist

 

[Redxplatinum]

My vote goes to Despair Embodied just became he came out as a surprise! There were no indication/reference on who or what the final boss was going to be. Of course I thought it would be Arius, but the game continued after Dante gave him his deserving "crown," yet became final boss for Lucia. Then you thought the blob of previous bosses would be the final battle, and boom. This gender switching demon hatches from the blob and challenges you to a fight.

And this.

 

[WolfOD64]

is that a real comic or a fan comic
i looks like it was drawn by a Spawn artist

This is (or was) the Devil May Cry comic series by Pat Lee, before it was essentially rendered non-canon. To date, it is one of the few non-manga projects with the Devil May Cry logo on it....something I really wish wasn't the case.

I understand that DMC is mostly anime-inspired as of Itsuno and DMC2-4, but I wouldn't mind a Western comic adaptation for the series. It would certainly suit the original game and Dante, before Capcom Japanified the living hell out of him, and the rest of the series' lore...you know, pretty much everything Kamiya and Team Little Devils envisioned for it.

 

[Director Bison]

My vote goes to Despair Embodied just became he came out as a surprise! There were no indication/reference on who or what the final boss was going to be. Of course I thought it would be Arius, but the game continued after Dante gave him his deserving "crown," yet became final boss for Lucia. Then you thought the blob of previous bosses would be the final battle, and boom. This gender switching demon hatches from the blob and challenges you to a fight.

And this.

man that video makes DMC 2 look allot better then it is
and i like DMC 2

 

[Innsmouth]

is that a real comic or a fan comic
i looks like it was drawn by a Spawn artist

Ah, not really. Spawn comics are more unique looking, and no it's not official comic, it got canned after 3 issues.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@WolfOD64
Mundus was more Sparda's nemesis than Dante's in the lore, although there's bad blood between the two cause of Dante's lineage. Also, their fight was just a "one-shot", so to speak. They face each other, Dante wins, Mundus is sealed away once more and will not be seen again in the games. The end.

It's clear to me that Vergil's Dante's nemesis. The two of them meet and fight multiple times during both DMC1 and 3. They're polar opposite to one another and believe in opposite values, and chose opposite paths.

Dante believes in humanity and fights demons and doesn't really gush over Sparda's figure, Vergil only considers demonic power worth something, for that reason he wants to emulate his father and seeks Sparda's power (without realizing that that power comes from humanity) and eventually, in DMC1, ends up becoming part of the demonic ranks, as opposed to Dante fighting them.

They fuel each other's motivation: Vergil sees Dante as weaker than him, despises his beliefs in what's human and that's more reason for him to believe what he believes, while at the same time, Dante despises Vergil (on the surface) and his convictions, his goal, and what the world would be if he reaches it, and that's more reason for him to fight the blue-coated brother.

More nemesis than that...

Even in DmC, they replicated the concept and the situation is about the same: Mundus is the one who ruined Dante's family, and he goes against him for revenge and dispatches him, but who's the ultimate villain in the end? Who's established as Dante's actual nemesis?

@DragonMaster2010 got that right: no matter the universe, Vergil is and always will be Dante's rival and nemesis, always fighting each other, unavoidably.

Obviously, there's also the gameplay factor and personal taste: like @AgentRedgrave, I prefer a straight up direct confrontation as a final battle, that's got to test what I learned about the game's actual combat and mechanics, such as iframes, Style usage, DT management, and so on. I need a final boss that requires all that to be beaten. Or otherwise...

While cool to see, I've never liked Mundus's fight as much as Vergil cause of the presence of gimmicks like the space flight. I personally don't like that stuff in an action game, and unfortunately DMC1's got quite a few of that kind of imo out of place segments. It's also one of the reasons why I'll never play Asura's Wrath.

 

[WolfOD64]

Mundus was more Sparda's nemesis than Dante's in the lore, although there's bad blood between the two cause of Dante's lineage. Also, their fight was just a "one-shot", so to speak. They face each other, Dante wins, Mundus is sealed away once more and will not be seen again in the games. The end.

I disagree immensely. Mundus is the sole reason Dante took up demon hunting in the first place---he's the cause behind Eva's vanquishing, which, to my knowledge, is the single motivation behind Dante's dedication to the craft in the first place, as he states in the very first game:

"Well the way I figure it, in this business a lot of your kind
come along, and if I kill each one that comes, eventually I should
hit the jackpot sooner or later."
​

Mundus literally stole and tainted everything Dante cared about: he killed his mother, he corrupted his brother, and then manipulated Dante to kill a demon using Vergil's own body as a living vessel, with the sole intention of breaking him emotionally---which is probably the reason Mundus ensured that Vergil kept his amulet, knowing that Dante would find it and come to the realization himself.

And that's not even getting into the fact that he attempted to sway Dante in the final battle by offering to "create another Eva" by using his demonic arts---so now he's not only trampling on Eva's metaphorical grave, he's attempting to taint her legacy of reanimiating and duplicating her, because he thinks she's superficial enough to be reproduced on a whim...

...a thought that drives Dante into livid anger even more.

A "one-shot death"? I don't think so. Just because it wasn't drawn out to absurdity three times like the Vergil duels in DMC3, doesn't in any way detract from its signifcance---especially when this one fight had more build-up, tension, and emotional investment than nearly ALL the Vergil fights combined, where the only thing established was how butt-hurt the brothers were towards each other---screaming one-liners at each other and occasionally hinting at shoddily-revealed motives.

Calling Mundus' battle a "one-shot death" is like calling Spawn's battle with Malebolgia "one-shot and insignificant"...it displays so much misinformation, it's almost a disservice to the source material.

It's clear to me that Vergil's Dante's nemesis. The two of them meet and fight multiple times during both DMC1 and 3. They're polar opposite to one another and believe in opposite values, and chose opposite paths.

Not really. Vergil was never really the Loki to Dante's Thor...simply because, while Vergil had motives of his own (as poorly-explained and painfully-alluded as they were), Dante didn't have any properly-conveyed motives at all. Seriously, that's not an exaggeration. Dante literally says that he isn't fighting because of some obligation to familial duty or to the world, but just because:

"I just don't like you."​

Ah, yes. The mountainous determination. The powerful symbolism. The endless conflict. The tension that puts entire epic poems to shame. It truly brings everything full circle in the end, and makes the future battles all the more climactic...

...except it doesn't.

Dante believes in humanity and fights demons and doesn't really gush over Sparda's figure, Vergil only considers demonic power worth something, for that reason he wants to emulate his father and seeks Sparda's power (without realizing that that power comes from humanity) and eventually, in DMC1, ends up becoming part of the demonic ranks, as opposed to Dante fighting them.

Alright, that I can get behind...because the way Sparda's power works was heavily tied to the emotional versatility of a human being in DMC4, as Nero even states.

That makes sense in the context of the game.

They fuel each other's motivation: Vergil sees Dante as weaker than him, despises his beliefs in what's human and that's more reason for him to believe what he believes,

That last part...

At what point in the game does Vergil verbalize this? No, really...I'm genuinely curious.

Dante despises Vergil (on the surface) and his convictions, his goal, and what the world would be if he reaches it, and that's more reason for him to fight the blue-coated brother.

Again, WHERE is this in the actual game? When does he openly decry the status of the world under Vergil's rule? Because as far as I can tell, Dantes's only real objection to Vergil taking over is the statement: "What are you going to do with all that power?" (Which, after displaying extreme laid-back behavior on the matter for almost the entire game, makes no sense for such a switch in concern and motivation to happen, even after that vaguely-jabbed implication with beating Lady and "knowing what [he] has to do now", which he still doesn't explain properly")

Seriously, these motives are left to such gross implication that it's almost too shallow to take seriously. At least all the suspense and motive behind the Mundus fight were on the table...we as the audience knew why the audience was fighting. Even after ten years, fans are still debating the true motives behind Vergil's mad pursuit of power, and it's STILL left to elongated theories and ceaseless head-canon.

Even in DmC, they replicated the concept and the situation is about the same: Mundus is the one who ruined Dante's family, and he goes against him for revenge and dispatches him, but who's the ultimate villain in the end? Who's established as Dante's actual nemesis?

It made more sense in that narrative, because Vergil fulfilled his role as the traitor. THAT was a conflict of siblings---they directly confronted each other on what they were planning to do now that Mundus was defeated (instead of making awkward implications through horrid dialogue), they recognized each other's flaws that would directly disrupt the flow of each other's plan...it literally played out like a confrontation between companions turned mortal enemies, like Moses and Ramses, or Thor and Loki, Magneto and Xavier.

That was a duel with actual weight behind it. All three battles in DMC3 had all the weight, tension, and symbolism of a TV Ad: no proper context, no connection to the characters, and absolutel, 100%, no reason to care which one wins or loses. That is the textbook definition of a fight without weight to it.[/USER]

 

[Foxtrot94]

A "one-shot death"? I don't think so. Just because it wasn't drawn out to absurdity three times like the Vergil duels in DMC3, doesn't in any way detract from its signifcance---especially when this one fight had more build-up, tension, and emotional investment than nearly ALL the Vergil fights combined

And there I'm the one disagreeing. But to each his own.

Dante literally says that he isn't fighting because of some obligation to familial duty or to the world, but just because:

"I just don't like you."​

That was at the beginning. Each of the three battles, Dante comes in with a different mentality.

Till the first one, he was basically going to a party, took it lightly, had weak reasons to fight and got his ass kicked for it.

After that, he approached the second one more seriously, in the sense that this time he doesn't underestimate his opponent and he's more focused on beating Vergil. Yet he still has nothing significant to fight for, just pure rivalry and will of having his payback for the previous defeat (and that's another thing I liked about their confrontations: yeah they're deadly swordfight duels, but every time before it starts, they're like doing a typical bickering between brothers, with their sarcastic banters, kinda like the same I used to do with my little bro when I was younger, which adds to the characterization of their brotherly rivalish relationship). That's all he cared about at that moment:

"Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. What's important, I've come all this way. I'm sure you have time for one more game... right?"

As for the third one, he's more aware there, witnessing Lady's personal family struggle with Arkham and his evil deeds made him care more about the concept of family, about what's right and what's wrong. It's not a party anymore, he knows it and he gets in the battle more determined than he was in both the first and the second (Vergil instead, kinda follows an opposite direction: more focused in the first fight, more mistakenly reckless in the last one).

Every battle is a step, so every battle is significant and acts as part of the build-up to the last one (being an action game, I find this to be the best kind of build-up to the final showdown for this type of game). Basically, the whole game build up to the final fight.

That last part...

At what point in the game does Vergil verbalize this? No, really...I'm genuinely curious.

It's no secret Vergil doesn't really hold human values and emotions in high regard. Anyway, I covered it in my post waaaaaay back then during that flame war discussion about Vergil in the DmCDE thread. It's also the opening post of the Portrait of a Warrior thread. It's there if you wanna read it again.

He also laughs in Dante's face when he talks about his soul wanting to stop him in Mission 20:

Again, WHERE is this in the actual game?

As for Dante not liking Vergil... well, you quoted that part yourself in your post.

As for the other point, when he talks to Lady after her boss battle:

"
- Why do you care so much?

- This whole business started with my father sealing the entrace between the two worlds. And now, my brother is trying to break that spell and turn everything into Demonville! This is my family matter too.
Quite frankly, at first I didn't give a damn. But because of you, I know what's important now. I know what I need to do.
"

The tone of his voice when he talks about "Demonville" is like "can't you see how crazy it is?".

That was a duel with actual weight behind it. All three battles in DMC3 had all the weight, tension, and symbolism of a TV Ad: no proper context, no connection to the characters, and absolutel, 100%, no reason to care which one wins or loses. That is the textbook definition of a fight without weight to it.

Meh. If you say so. I disagree on everything. Especially the last phrase, I felt exactly that way in DmC. I found the whole Dante vs Vergil confrontation in DmC to hold a lot less weight than in DMC3, felt kinda shoehorned and rushed, as if the devs thought they HAD to put Dante against Vergil, because it was done in DMC1 and 3.

It's not like it's a bad thing in itself, but to me, didn't feel properly set up. The plot twist at the very end of the game... just didn't do it for me. Not to mention what Vergil comes off as in the Mundus fight... that's hardly a good build-up, as I see it. As cool as the beginning of the fight is (you know, when they face each other with that music in the background).

But again, to each his own.

To be clear, I didn't want to start a bickering with you (like Dante and Vergil, eh? LOL). Just wanted to express my view on it (not saying you didn't want to do the same). It's not that I don't find your points valid, or legitimate (hopefully the sentiment is mutual), I'm sorry if I came across that way, it's just that I don't see it that way, just as much as you don't see it my way. I mean, in the end, what're you gonna do?

Il mondo è bello perché è vario.*





*Basically means that diversity (in this case, in our thoughts) is good.

EDIT: added images.

 

[WolfOD64]

and that's another thing I liked about their confrontations: yeah they're deadly swordfight duels, but every time before it starts, they're like doing a typical bickering between brothers, with their sarcastic banters, kinda like the same I used to do with my little bro when I was younger, which adds to the characterization of their brotherly rivalish relationship)

I guess that's where you and I differ immensely on how we view the outcome of the story.

For me, the constant batter and lack of any real motive just doesn't warrant these over-dramatic confrontations in the rain, or in the Underworld, and absolutely doesn't warrant the suicidally-serious tone the narrative is trying to pull towards the climax.

I would be fine if between the banter and immaturity, some more was revealed about why Dante and Vergil are fighting (beside the game constantly hammering the "DER, SIBLING RIVALRY" card in the audience's faces), maybe a legitimate reference to what happened between them as children, or even their relationship to Eva.

But we don't get anything. It's just stylish fights without any real consequence or narrative weight, all tumbling down on a final confrontation that seems to come out of almost nowhere, and barely escalates past the nonsensical fighting we got in the last two boss fights.

As for the third one, he's more aware there, witnessing Lady's personal family struggle with Arkham and his evil deeds made him care more about the concept of family, about what's right and what's wrong. It's not a party anymore, he knows it and he gets in the battle more determined than he was in both the first and the second (Vergil instead, kinda follows an opposite direction: more focused in the first fight, more mistakenly reckless in the last one).

That's literally what bothers me the most.

Dante becoming "more aware" of familial importance because of Lady and Arkham's relationship doesn't have any real relevance because we have no idea what kind of relationship him and Vergil had before the game.

The nature of the two brothers' relationship is never defined outside of "they like fighting...A LOT." We don't know if it's always been this way between them, or even if anything caused them to start this trend of fighting each other on sight in the first place. The two of them are just thrown together in senseless fight scenes for the sake of building up a final duel that never had any real emotional build to begin with, and the writer shoe-horning that sentimental scene with Lady in an attempt to give Dante some poorly-implemented means of "taking the higher road and being the better brother" completely contradicts his behavior and his eagerness to fight Vergil for the entirety of the game up till that point.

That plot-point with Lady is there, it exists...I'm not denying it. I'm just saying that it doesn't work, and sticks out like a sore thumb when neither brother has had any real "familial ties" or "emotional draw" towards each other. They're not rivals for any real reason, they're not sworn enemies because of any real reason, and they aren't "spurned siblings fighting out their long-standing quarrel" with each other, because there IS no explained quarrel, and they're just constantly at odds with each other because the game simply says so.

Every battle is a step, so every battle is significant and acts as part of the build-up to the last one (being an action game, I find this to be the best kind of build-up to the final showdown for this type of game). Basically, the whole game build up to the final fight.

And that's my problem, as stated above. That's an extremely poor route for a narrative to take, especially when between the fights themselves, there isn't any real substance or narrative drive at all.

It doesn't matter how flashy, dramatic, or "epic" a fight looks and feels, if the consequences or narrative purpose sandwiched between the fight scenes like narrative cement doesn't hold it together. All you have are a bunch of empty, shallow, but nonetheless well-choreographed fight scenes without any weight to them.

It embodies everything I hate about DMC3: it's style without a single grain of substance...substance that this story desperately needed if it was going to take its story so unbearably-seriously.

It's no secret Vergil doesn't really hold human values and emotions in high regard. Anyway, I covered it in my post waaaaaay back then during that flame war discussion about Vergil in the DmCDE thread.

I was talking mainly about your claim about Vergil holding Dante's beliefs about humans in low regard. From what I understand, he only seemed to protest Dante as the weaker, less ambitious brother...unworthy of the Sparda bloodline. How he hates the way that Dante views humans is something I swear he never vocalizes or alludes to at all in-game....

....probably because Dante himself never once vocalizes or alludes to how he feels about humans in-game, despite all the wisps of head-canon smoke I keep squinting through from people about "how Dante BUR-LIIIEVES in humanity". He barely interacts or shows any kind of interest in humans whatsoever.

It's not like Alucard from Hellsing, who constantly states that he views humans as ultimately superior to vampires in every way, as the "stronger" race, and as the "worthier race." Dante seems to keep his passion circulated around three things: fighting, pizza, and Eva.

I have yet to see him interact or even speak on behalf of humanity. Hell, even New Dante managed to defend their right to be free in the latter half of DmC...saying that Vergil had "no right to decide the fate of so many", and openly protesting over them being herded into subjectivity.

Meh. If you say so. I disagree on everything.

Good, good...

That's what I like to hear. That's what I'm hear for. To disagree in a friendly fashion and casually debate.

Especially the last phrase, I felt exactly that way in DmC. I found the whole Dante vs Vergil confrontation in DmC to hold a lot less weight than in DMC3, felt kinda shoehorned and rushed, as if the devs thought they HAD to put Dante against Vergil, because it was done in DMC1 and 3.

See, that's something I noticed with a lot of people. It seems like everyone's under the impression that Dante and Vergil's conflict just sporadically starts at the end of the game.

I don't find this to be the case at all. To me, it was something that had been brewing throughout the game.

Dante and Vergil cooperate seamlessly in the beginning, and trust the "brains vs brawn" relationship that they have. But as the plot continues, they begin to find quarrelsome, opposing traits in one another.

During Mundus' Siege of the Order's Headquarters, Vergil displays how selfish he really is, and how salvaging his own work outweighs the safety of his human comerades. You can even hear it in the way he talks: "If they get their hands on that data, everything I've worked for will be for nothing." He says everything, "I've worked for", not "we've worked for"...implying that he prizes himself as the Order's most valuable asset, and only his life and contributions of any significance. Dante objects to this behavior profoundly, hollering at Vergil that he's wasting time and endangering everyone, to which Vergil replies: "Then MAKE time, Dante!"

And not only does he fail to show any interest in Kat's safety when she's being held hostage, he goes as far as to recommend abandoning her for the salvation of their plans. Dante contrasts with him by prioritizing Kat's retrieval above all other things...even the mission at hand.

Incidents like these, the way both brothers react to Lillith's Assassination---and the way Vergil justifies it----are just a few of several moments.

Vergil turning "evil" at the end wasn't any kind of plot twist. It was sprinkled throughout the narrative, breadcrumbs paving the road down to his and Dante's ultimate confrontation. They had fought and argued with each other before, but they took action against one another when their differences put them at too far odds with each other.

Their relationship is a lot like Xavier and Erik's relationship in X-Men: First Class.

They get along initially, but there are subtle hints about what path each character will take in the events to come....hints that the characters themselves become aware of, and watch as they bloom into conflict. It's the kind of relationship that Dante and Vergil had in DmC, and absolutely LACKED in DMC3.

That's what effective build-up is. Dante and Vergil standing around in the rain, fighting a battle more vague and poorly-implemented than The Last Airbender is hardly build-up for a climax...

We have a word for that in the industry. It's called abysmal writing.

It's not like it's a bad thing in itself, but to me, didn't feel properly set up. Not to mention what Vergil comes off as in the Mundus fight... that's hardly a good build-up, as I see it. As cool as the beginning of the fight is (you know, when they face each other with that music in the background).

I'd argue the exact same for the Dante and Vergil fights in DMC3, what with the dialogue and lack of any pre-made tension or narrative build....but you already know that story.

The only part I'll agree with is that the fight in DmC didn't look as cool. But that's what happens when you don't have the beautiful assets of Yuji Shimomura and U'Den Flame Works.

But again, to each his own.To be clear, I didn't want to start a bickering with you (like Dante and Vergil, eh? LOL). Just wanted to express my view on it (not saying you didn't want to do the same). It's not that I don't find your points valid, or legitimate (hopefully the sentiment is mutual), I'm sorry if I came across that way, it's just that I don't see it that way, just as much as you don't see it my way. I mean, in the end, what're you gonna do?

Foxy, boy, this isn't bickering. The kind of relentless insulting and shrieking I have to do with certain individuals on this site is "bickering."

This is is us having a casual, but invested debate on something we like talking about. We're both making points, civil in tone, addressing each others' points, and actually getting somewhere with our discussion.

It's the kind of conversation I like having, and the kind I wish I had more often on these forums...but don't.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@WolfOD64
Fine. Guess we differ a lot in how we perceive a narrative. Where you see nothing, I see stuff. And where I see nothing, you see stuff.

We also differ in what we consider important in a certain kind of narrative. For example, the kind of buildup there is in DmC didn't really work for me, as I felt it pretty flat and one-dimensional, only operating on one level. It only gets worse by the Mundus fight, where Vergil becomes completely disrespectable as an ultimate villain to my eyes and any kind of buildup they wanted to make gets destroyed. To me, that is poor writing and buildup. Since you made that comparison to First Class, well, there I can see more going on between Charles and Eric than I see between DmC Dante and Vergil.

That's how I see it but you see it differently and I believe both our views are valid. Cause they're both backed up with reasonable arguments. Can we safely agree on that?

In DMC3, I see more. You disagree cause you don't see any narrative substance between the fights, but I do. I see the two brothers progressively walking down opposite paths, which kind of remind me of how it's used to say... you know, the first will be the last and the last will be the first. I see a lot of character through action type of characterization (a technique apparently very dear to eastern writers and directors).
I mean, there's so also much more I see going on between Dante and Vergil in DMC3, on multiple levels, that I've never seen in the other Devil May Cry games between any other character, I could go on boring you to no end, while I don't see the same in DmC, for example.

And that is me. You have a totally opposite opinion, and that is you. Like, I could now start quoting parts of your reply and tell you why I disagree with it, but that ain't gonna go anywhere cause we're SO different in what we seek in a narrative.

However, the sole fact that we do hold such opinions means that there is, in fact, stuff in DMC3 and DmC that supports them (I mean, I think neither of us considers the other someone who makes stuff up outta nowhere), otherwise we wouldn't think what we think, right? And whatever our grudges towards those games might be, we gotta give them some credit because of it. And ya know what? I think this is the very point we can agree on, as reasonable people.

Can we end it by saying that while we deeply disagree, we can still see each other's points?

 

[WolfOD64]

Fine. Guess we differ a lot in how we perceive a narrative. Where you see nothing, I see stuff. And where I see nothing, you see stuff.
That's how I see it but you see it differently and I believe both our views are valid. Cause they're both backed up with reasonable arguments. Can we safely agree on that?

We already have, I believe. No hostility here.

I see a lot of character through action type of characterization (a technique apparently very dear to eastern writers and directors).

Not all of them. There seems to be this belief where some incompetently-told forms of fiction can get a free pass because they're written in a style and a manner reflected through combat, in a very Eastern fashion.

That doesn't fly in the slightest. Bad writing is bad writing no matter where is from...and DMC3 doesn't get a free pass because it's "written from an Eastern perspective." You ever read Berserk? Or watch Samurai I: Musashi Miyamoto? These are integral, action-driven works, wrought with Eastern culture and influences, written from an Eastern perspective...

They have substance and weight to back up the style and action-oriented characterization, and don't rely solely on the latter of the two like DMC3 foolishly does.

However, the sole fact that we do hold such opinions means that there is, in fact, stuff in DMC3 and DmC that supports them (I mean, I think neither of us considers the other someone who makes stuff up outta nowhere), otherwise we wouldn't think what we think, right? And whatever our grudges towards those games might be, we gotta give them some credit because of it. And ya know what? I think this is the very point we can agree on, as reasonable people.

Hey, that's all that matters to me.

We didn't pull this argument out of our deluded fanboy bias. We used actual points from the sourced material, and that's why I appreciated our debate for what it was.[/user]