Kat Useless or Not

[Innsmouth]

She's had a full layout of the building ever since they saved her. She's had plans to use that knowledge already.

how?

Isn't that like calling Trish generic too since she's also there to fit as Dante's mother figure?
The fact that Kat has been the person whose been the most help for Dante and Vergil says more about her tactical skills then her picking up a gun and shooting. A character doesn't have to be an action hero and have super powers in order to have a purpose. *cough* John Constantine *cough*.

She don't have purpose, because she only follows Vergil's orders. Name at least one time where she acted on her own accord and not for servitude of Vergil. She basically a puppet. Something Trish would have been, unless she rised against Mundus.

Helping twice, after screwing over the main character and making him question his own good morals isn't an ally. That's a motivation. A reason to change. A plot device in itself. I don't mind Kat being called a plot device, but that doesn't mean you ignore your own plot devices as well.

What happened to Trish after that? Well she left and got into demon-hunting on her own. That's something that differs between them. Trish is able to act on her own, without asking guidance from anyone. Kat isn't. She doesn't has her own will to do it. That's why she's useless.

 

[The Final Offer]

DragonMaster seems to have this on lock.

I'll post up until I'm ready to once again prove Innsmouth wrong.

 

[WolfOD64]

This topic just makes me laugh more than anything else.

So, Kat kills her own father and severs her ties with her old life, she acts as a moral compass for someone as destructive as Dante, she sets him on the right path and convinces him to keep his human side intact when fighting Vergil, puts herself in harm’s way on a constant to leave Wiccan seals all over the place whilst knowing a flock of demons could slaughter her at any moment, keeps both Vergil’s identity and plans a secret while withstanding torture, endures torture long enough to study her surroundings and analyze Mundus’s headquarters, and then single-handedly constructs a plan of interception based on her findings, all while recovering from her injuries and literally drawing out her strategy in a CAST…

…and she’s still considered useless?

Jesus. If you’re not a walking pair of tits performing Matrix choreography, you aren’t considered to be of any worth in the Devil May Cry universe. I guess that makes Kyrie just as useless. I mean, she did lunge in front of a child in the face of certain death---but because she has the erotic appeal of a nun and isn’t performing constant backflips while flailing absurd weaponry about, she’s usueless.

Some of you should consider developing the next Devil May Cry. They design their female characters with the exact same logic.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

This topic just makes me laugh more than anything else.

So, Kat kills her own father and severs her ties with her old life, she acts as a moral compass for someone as destructive as Dante, she sets him on the right path and convinces him to keep his human side intact when fighting Vergil, puts herself in harm’s way on a constant to leave Wiccan seals all over the place whilst knowing a flock of demons could slaughter her at any moment, keeps both Vergil’s identity and plans a secret while withstanding torture, endures torture long enough to study her surroundings and analyze Mundus’s headquarters, and then single-handedly constructs a plan of interception based on her findings, all while recovering from her injuries and literally drawing out her strategy in a CAST…

…and she’s still considered useless?

Jesus. If you’re not a walking pair of tits performing Matrix choreography, you aren’t considered to be of any worth in the Devil May Cry universe. I guess that makes Kyrie just as useless. I mean, she did lunge in front of a child in the face of certain death---but because she has the erotic appeal of a nun and isn’t performing constant backflips while flailing absurd weaponry about, she’s usueless.

Some of you should consider developing the next Devil May Cry. They design their female characters with the exact same logic.

Walking pair of tits? Did you play anything other than DMC4?

Kyrie is infinitely more useless. She's only there so Nero has something to cry about every 30 seconds.

and isn’t performing constant backflips while flailing absurd weaponry about, she’s usueless.

Some of you should consider developing the next Devil May Cry. They design their female characters with the exact same logic.

You mean the same logic they use to design their male characters? Gotta try harder if you wanna accuse the original series of being sexist.

 

[WolfOD64]

Walking pair of tits? Did you play anything other than DMC4?

Gotta try harder if you wanna accuse the original series of being sexist.

The developers have even admitted to it when discussing them in interviews.

"Because a big part of the fan base is guys, we always put in a nice sexy character, hence Gloria. In the past we’ve used Trish, who is a recurring character, and also Lady. Lady appeared in 3, and now she’s about ten years older than she was in that one, but she’s grown up very nicely, as you’ll see."
----Hiroyuki Kobayashi, Devil May Cry 4 Interview​

Their literal excuse for including Trish and Lady was for the sake of fan-service----not continuity, not narrative fulfillment, fan-service.

Kyrie is infinitely more useless. She's only there so Nero has something to cry about every 30 seconds.

I don't know what you expect her to do. Last time I checked, the Order of the Sword didn't equip their singers with Devil Arms or combat training. She's a singer. Just be thankful she isn't dressed as scandolously as the other females in the DMC universe.

Her presence in the game actually makes sense. While Lady and Trish are thrown in for eye candy, Kyrie actually plays a prominent role in the plot. Her relationship with Nero makes more sense, given they're childhood friends...that's more incentive for their romance than the utter lack of chemistry between Dante and the females in his story arcs.

I'm also happy you conveniently skipped over me mentioning how she saved that child. You know---having no combat prowess or means of escape whatsoever, and still proceeding to use herself as human shield knowing full well she might be cut to pieces---one might consider that pretty selfless, and fairly useful.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

>accuses entire series of something
>backs it up with a quote about DMC4, the one game everyone acknowledges did everything but combat wrong

ok

I'll reply to that properly later. Gotta leave for work now.

 

[EA9Sol]

Kat is not useless. She has her role as good support character. Same as Kyrie. But with Kyrie it was just lack of deeper characterization that made her feel.....lacking. :/ I see both being good character and not just fan service.

 

[WolfOD64]

>accuses entire series of something
>backs it up with a quote about DMC4, the one game everyone acknowledges did everything but combat wrong

ok

I'll reply to that properly later. Gotta leave for work now.

Because my problem totally doesn't apply to the rest of the games. It's totally not like Hiroyuki Kobayashi also worked in DMC1 as well as DMC4, or anything.

Oh, and referencing DMC4, a game that is still the latest and 100% legitimate entry in the series, shouldn't matter.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

Pretty sure if you single handedly save the main character of a game from dying, you're useful by definition.
Just saying

 

[InfernalOverkill]

The developers have even admitted to it when discussing them in interviews.

"Because a big part of the fan base is guys, we always put in a nice sexy character, hence Gloria. In the past we’ve used Trish, who is a recurring character, and also Lady. Lady appeared in 3, and now she’s about ten years older than she was in that one, but she’s grown up very nicely, as you’ll see."
----Hiroyuki Kobayashi, Devil May Cry 4 Interview​

Their literal excuse for including Trish and Lady was for the sake of fan-service----not continuity, not narrative fulfillment, fan-service.

I don't know what you expect her to do. Last time I checked, the Order of the Sword didn't equip their singers with Devil Arms or combat training. She's a singer. Just be thankful she isn't dressed as scandolously as the other females in the DMC universe.

Her presence in the game actually makes sense. While Lady and Trish are thrown in for eye candy, Kyrie actually plays a prominent role in the plot. Her relationship with Nero makes more sense, given they're childhood friends...that's more incentive for their romance than the utter lack of chemistry between Dante and the females in his story arcs.

I'm also happy you conveniently skipped over me mentioning how she saved that child. You know---having no combat prowess or means of escape whatsoever, and still proceeding to use herself as human shield knowing full well she might be cut to pieces---one might consider that pretty selfless, and fairly useful.

Right, let's get to it.
If you class Lady and Trish as eye candy in DMC1 and 3, then Kat is eye candy in DmC. Or are we just going to ignore the zoom ins on her arse/tits?

It may have been done for fan service in the past, but they weren't just "SEX SELLS!" in 1-3, as they were in 4. For all you know Kat was done for fan service too, and NT has the good sense not to admit it. And if you really wanna get into fan service, DmC is the winner there, for both sides. We get a naked Dante flying around his caravan, strippers, an orgy, etc.

Why does it make sense? It's not like Nero had anywhere else to go and would've just left if not for her being there. And her being kidnapped wasn't his only motivation to deal with ****, he is a devil hunter after all. The only difference would've been that Nero wouldn't have been in the psuedo-church when Dante attacked, but he'd still have turned up to kill some demons.

I think you're confusing the definitions of "useful" and "selfless". Here, allow me to help:
useful
ˈjuːsfʊl,-f(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: useful
able to be used for a practical purpose or in several ways.

How in hell was Kyrie serving a practical purpose by becoming a human shield? If Nero didn't show up both she AND the child would be dead, which negates the act she performed[saving the child], which is what your basis for her being useful. Regardless of what Kyrie did in that situation, Nero was going to kill the demon. Nero was the useful one there, not Kyrie.

Heh, I forgot the most awkward sex scene/dry hump session in history on the fan service part too.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

And if you really wanna go into it, DmC is really trying to tick every box available for making as many people as possible go "hey, I agree!" not fan service by the true definition, but a similar goal. I mean really, DmC's storyline is essentially /b/ vs Fox News, "hurr capitalism bad", "hurr bankers = evil", "durr free yourself","hey guise, **** da system amirite xdxd?". You couldn't cater to the stereotypical gamer demographic more than that.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

Nah I don't think Kat was useless.

Arguing about stuff is pretty useless though...just saying

 

[EA9Sol]

Kyrie is not useless. *sigh*. What ever development that was going to be put into her her was cut just like everything else in the game. Showing that Kyrie was wiling to jump into harms way to save the kid meant she was selfless but also brave enough to d so. If she wasn't kidnap like at the banging of the game and they put more development into her maybe she'd have more of an impact. While Trish and Lady in DMC 1 and 3 had more time on screen and interacted with more Dante. They made some sort of impact instead f being "hurr dur useless". Regardless she was always going to be "support" to Nero and not fight. Same with Kat.

These two women are the "Support" characters of the games and nothing is wrong with that. Not every game needs a bad ass fighting dame like Trish or Lady. Now useless would be Lady in DMC 4 who was just there to be there. At least Trish helped evacuate the city.

 

[InfernalOverkill]

Kyrie is not useless. *sigh*. What ever development that was going to be put into her her was cut just like everything else in the game. Showing that Kyrie was wiling to jump into harms way to save the kid meant she was selfless but also brave enough to d so. If she wasn't kidnap like at the banging of the game and they put more development into her maybe she'd have more of an impact. While Trish and Lady in DMC 1 and 3 had more time on screen and interacted with more Dante. They made some sort of impact instead f being "hurr dur useless". Regardless she was always going to be "support" to Nero and not fight. Same with Kat.

These two women are the "Support" characters of the games and nothing is wrong with that. Not every game needs a bad ass fighting dame like Trish or Lady. Now useless would be Lady in DMC 4 who was just there to be there. At least Trish helped evacuate the city.

The only thing of note Kyrie did in the entire game was attempt to sacrifice herself to delay a child's death by a few seconds. Whether or not she threw herself in front of that kid is entirely irrelevant; had Nero not been there, both Kyrie and the child die. But because Nero was there, he killed the demon well before it made impact. Kyrie is not being useful there, she's being selfless, it's not the same. Kyrie is entirely useless, there's no getting around it.

Kat on the other hand is not useless. Even if Dante and Vergil could've got to Mundus without her, she definitely made it a lot easier. That can justifiably be viewed as being a useful character.

If you remove Kat from DmC, either Dante dies and that's that, or [and in my opinion more likely] the story still works but Dante has to work a lot harder to achieve his and Vergil's goals. On the other hand if you remove Kyrie, Nero just stops being a whiny tween. He's still a demon hunter, and he's still going to go out and kill demons, and follow the same overall path.

The writers having a better storyline for Kyrie in mind is irrelevant. You review the final product, not the initial ideas.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

how?

While she was captured.


She don't have purpose, because she only follows Vergil's orders. Name at least one time where she acted on her own accord and not for servitude of Vergil. She basically a puppet. Something Trish would have been, unless she rised against Mundus.

Well of course she follows Vergil. He saved her and was in debt to him. That's what subordinates do.

What happened to Trish after that? Well she left and got into demon-hunting on her own. That's something that differs between them. Trish is able to act on her own, without asking guidance from anyone. Kat isn't. She doesn't has her own will to do it. That's why she's useless.

That makes no sense. -_- So she doesn't go off on her own, she's useless. Seriously?

 

[Innsmouth]

That makes no sense. -_- So she doesn't go off on her own, she's useless. Seriously?

yup. Character who only does what other told him/her is useless imo, since it lacks personal impact.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Right, let's get to it.
If you class Lady and Trish as eye candy in DMC1 and 3, then Kat is eye candy in DmC. Or are we just going to ignore the zoom ins on her arse/tits?

True Kat is eye candy, but there's a difference between assshots and upshirts compared to pantyless heroines, open chested jackets, actual bouncing boobs, and pulling items out of boobs.

It may have been done for fan service in the past, but they weren't just "SEX SELLS!" in 1-3, as they were in 4. For all you know Kat was done for fan service too, and NT has the good sense not to admit it. And if you really wanna get into fan service, DmC is the winner there, for both sides. We get a naked Dante flying around his caravan, strippers, an orgy, etc.

At least DmC only showed pictures and didn't go full GOW style. And yeah Dante was naked but at least no genitalia was shone. Only one time we see Dante naked, and the rest he's clothed. The stippers, yes, and orgy, yes. Still I wouldn't really consider that sex sells. Sex sells in the way I see it is when you have female characters who are part of the story acting as women purely for men's full entertainment. Kat's just a tease and Lilith is just ugly.

Why does it make sense? It's not like Nero had anywhere else to go and would've just left if not for her being there. And her being kidnapped wasn't his only motivation to deal with ****, he is a devil hunter after all. The only difference would've been that Nero wouldn't have been in the psuedo-church when Dante attacked, but he'd still have turned up to kill some demons.

Actually Nero's entire reason for killing demons was to get Kyrie back and protect her. As the quote he used when he got yamato "If I'm a demon, so be it. I'll endure the exile. Anything to protect her." and this was before he found out Kyrie was captured. He only had that as a motivation near the end and could honestly care less about being a devil hunter. He was a hunter because Credos taught him to be one and sent him on orders like a good little solider.

Heh, I forgot the most awkward sex scene/dry hump session in history on the fan service part too.

You sound like a child whose just now seeing mature sex. Plus at least we didn't have to see the actual sex. Way less shameless then hearing Dante talk about his d!ck, seeing a pantyless fan service woman whose only for fan service, Nero in a vagina prison, the female characters just being walking sex objects, a bra less vampire, and the claim that this game would bring in more female gamers with it's weak shonen/shoujou story.

And if you really wanna go into it, DmC is really trying to tick every box available for making as many people as possible go "hey, I agree!" not fan service by the true definition, but a similar goal. I mean really, DmC's storyline is essentially /b/ vs Fox News, "hurr capitalism bad", "hurr bankers = evil", "durr free yourself","hey guise, **** da system amirite xdxd?". You couldn't cater to the stereotypical gamer demographic more than that.

So? And what was DMC1-4? It does the same thing with anime fans with its anime like protaganist, the J-movie style, the matrix affects, the "religion can be evil too" story of DMC4, the Inuyasha camp of DMC3, and the so-called catering to a female audience with a damsel in distress, a pantyless woman, two able female characters who just stand around and look pretty, and a demoness who throws her children at her enemies like abortions.

Who. Gives. A crap?

 

[DragonMaster2010]

yup. Character who only does what other told him/her is useless imo, since it lacks personal impact.

Okay. But let me say this;

A character is not, I repat, NOT determined by the rules they follow or how many times they do what someone says. A character is determined by what they are, how they speak, what's their story, and the way they are as a person. That character following orders isn't useless but a sign of loyalty and respect for that person. And it also tells who that character will follow if that character has issues with trust in general. It bring more out for the person he/she follows and brings more of the conviction to follow what that person says from the character itself. It's by no means a sign of uselessness to do what another commands. If that were the case then everything Raiden, Nero, and other characters who are part of an organization are useless as well.

Oh and also

Sebastian does everything Ciel ask him to and is DEFINITELY not useless.

 

[Innsmouth]

Okay. But let me say this;

A character is not, I repat, NOT determined by the rules they follow or how many times they do what someone says. A character is determined by what they are, how they speak, what's their story, and the way they are as a person. That character following orders isn't useless but a sign of loyalty and respect for that person. And it also tells who that character will follow if that character has issues with trust in general. It bring more out for the person he/she follows and brings more of the conviction to follow what that person says from the character itself. It's by no means a sign of uselessness to do what another commands. If that were the case then everything Raiden, Nero, and other characters who are part of an organization are useless as well.

Oh and also

Sebastian does everything Ciel ask him to and is DEFINITELY not useless.

there is huge difference between sebastian and Kat. Sebastian does everything in his own way. He usually acts on his own, Kat doesn't do anything than strictly obey orders. She saved dante? well she done this only because she was told to. She barely exist as person. you never her own personal opinion on anything. She never does anything outside of boundaries put on her by plot/vergil. Frankly speaking, she doesn't exist as character beside her obedience. As such I can't even treat her as anything else beside simple plot hook

 

[DragonMaster2010]

there is huge difference between sebastian and Kat. Sebastian does everything in his own way. He usually acts on his own, Kat doesn't do anything than strictly obey orders.

So. Does. Sebastian. And it's orders he's following anyway. No matter how you slice it an order is an order and both follow it to the letter. Sebastian doesn't follow orders his own way, he does them the way Ciel says to do it by the orders given. The only difference is that Sebastian's a demon and Kat's human.

t She saved dante? well she done this only because she was told to. She barely exist as person.

How does following orders makes you less of a person? That's like saying if your mother tells a child to do something, that makes him/her less of a human being. Keep in mind that Kat is WORKING for Vergil, and a WORKER does what the BOSS says. That's how it's always been.

you never her own personal opinion on anything.

So you're gonna ignore Kat's talks with Dante about her views on virility, Vergil, her nightmares, her past, she being Dante's first friend, Kat siding with Dante in Vergil's betrayal, and at the end Kat comforting Dante. If you ask me, that's Kat expressing herself and showing her personality.

She never does anything outside of boundaries put on her by plot/vergil.

SO DOES EVERY CHARACTER EVER CREATED.