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Subtle Intervals Between Action

Dante47

Well-known Member
I always had this idea for one of the games.
How many moments have we had where the characters just... sit around and... well, talk to one another? No action, no set pieces, no loud music.. just them... talking.

I was kind of hoping for a moment like that in DmC.
Maybe Dante and Vergil are at the old playground they used to visit. It's a nice day, not dark and grey, and the sun is out. They sit on the swings and just... talk. Not about war, and not about anything really. Just how they feel.
Two brothers, chilling, and catching up on all the years. Hell, maybe they don't have to talk.
A quiet moment, you know?

What do you guys think? Do you have any similar suggestions for a future Devil May Cry game?
Is Devil May Cry always supposed to be loud and nonstop? Or is it okay to just pull the brakes, stop, and smell the flowers?
 
I think they're little old for the swings, at least I couldn't see Vergil sitting on one, Dante maybe x3. But a quiet moment, those two needed one to catch up on things.

I would've liked to have seen more action sequences, where you just had fighting. DMC has so much of it, and it could've been cool having some here too. Maybe not as crazy, but just something. The debut trailer and CGI are good examples. Much as I love kicking butt, I'd like to watch it too.
 
This is part of the problem with the hack and slash action genre on the whole; it's very difficult to integrate more peaceful character moments without derailing the manic pace that the gameplay encourages.

I fondly regard Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny as being one of the better executed compromises; that game has a hub environment where the secondary characters congregate, and in the downtime between demon murder sprees the player can check on how everyone is doing, and even share gifts with his allies. Character inclination is changed by how you treat them, and the favour they feel for you not only alters whether or not they help you through the story, but can literally mean the difference between life and death for them.

More than that though, the act of giving gifts to them gives you insight on them, often funny or surprising, and incentivizes the character development by rewarding the player with items and assistance in combat later on. It generally avoided lengthy cutscenes for the character exposition, and gave the game huge replay value seeing as there were scenarios you could miss without replaying the game at least three times.

I've often thought about how I'd design DmC2 if I were given the chance, and I'd definitely want to take that mechanic for inspiration. Oni 2 was released almost ten years ago, there's plenty for room to improve on it's formula and use it for more meaningful, interactive storytelling as part of the action genre, instead of the over reliance on linear cinematics the industry has come to depend on.
 
Look up Social Links on Persona 3 or 4 on youtube.

A user here had the idea of using these "times for talking" as ways to get upgrades for your combos, kind of like Starcraft.

Every time you "rank-up", you gain a new move, health, or DT meter increase.
 
Look up Social Links on Persona 3 or 4 on youtube.

A user here had the idea of using these "times for talking" as ways to get upgrades for your combos, kind of like Starcraft.

Every time you "rank-up", you gain a new move, health, or DT meter increase.

That's the notion I was thinking of, although I actually thought it'd be interesting to have your affinity with other characters to be what allows you to use the Style system.

You see in Persona the devs can afford to have tens of Social Link characters to interact with because comparatively JRPG combat mechanics are cheaper to produce when compared to the complex AI, animations and fine tweaking combat in Devil May Cry would require, so if DmC were to use such a mechanic it would be necessary to limit the amount of characters you can interact with in this way. Each character could be emblematic of a different Style in terms of how they fight and their personality, so by taking on each of them as a favoured friend the whole gameplay experience and tone of the game could be shifted. If for example you want to get better at evading enemy attacks, welp, you better go hang out with the sleazy, untrustworthy-looking Trickster character.

The trick would be integrating such a system without completely distracting the player's attention away from Dante, who is our focal character after all. The kinds of games that use this kind of social mechanic (Oni 2, Persona, Bioware games) usually have a protagonist who is something of a non-entity, whose traits are as generic as possible to fit with any character or stance you decide to favour. You'd have to walk a tightrope between having the side characters being engaging without having Dante fall too far from the spotlight.
 
I always had this idea for one of the games.
How many moments have we had where the characters just... sit around and... well, talk to one another? No action, no set pieces, no loud music.. just them... talking.

I was kind of hoping for a moment like that in DmC.
Maybe Dante and Vergil are at the old playground they used to visit. It's a nice day, not dark and grey, and the sun is out. They sit on the swings and just... talk. Not about war, and not about anything really. Just how they feel.
Two brothers, chilling, and catching up on all the years. Hell, maybe they don't have to talk.
A quiet moment, you know?

What do you guys think? Do you have any similar suggestions for a future Devil May Cry game?
Is Devil May Cry always supposed to be loud and nonstop? Or is it okay to just pull the brakes, stop, and smell the flowers?

You reminded me of my favorite scene from Infamous 2. They're not talking... but that just makes the scene that much better.
 
a separate gameplay mechanic for this type of thing doesn't seem like it would fit Devil May Cry or DmC but just having a few more relaxed cutscenes might work ( the games are probably to short to have a lot of them but adding a few wouldn't hurt)
 
a separate gameplay mechanic for this type of thing doesn't seem like it would fit Devil May Cry or DmC but just having a few more relaxed cutscenes might work ( the games are probably to short to have a lot of them but adding a few wouldn't hurt)

Part of what I'm saying is that you wouldn't have to make developing the relationships with other characters a distraction from the combat, but instead something to enhance the combat and make it a greater part of telling the story. Imagine if rather than giving gifts to characters to curry favour or having interactive conversations with them, instead the fighting style you favour and the way you treat comrades in battle could help develop your connection with them, and you could still have playable sequences where you walk around or hang out with them in the downtime.

This is an interactive medium, and having the action-oriented gameplay illustrate how the characters feel for each other can have far more palpable gravitas when compared to non-interactive cinematics.
 
Part of what I'm saying is that you wouldn't have to make developing the relationships with other characters a distraction from the combat, but instead something to enhance the combat and make it a greater part of telling the story. Imagine if rather than giving gifts to characters to curry favour or having interactive conversations with them, instead the fighting style you favour and the way you treat comrades in battle could help develop your connection with them, and you could still have playable sequences where you walk around or hang out with them in the downtime.

This is an interactive medium, and having the action-oriented gameplay illustrate how the characters feel for each other can have far more palpable gravitas when compared to non-interactive cinematics.
there isn't really much downtime Devil May Cry games tend to focus on a single large event or in DmC's case a series of events happening in quick succession with no break, and Dante mostly fights by himself. i might be a little biased because i prefer games where character development and interaction are part of the main story instead of something the player does in his spare time but Devil May Cry games are that type of game and making them into the other type would require changes that would interfere with other aspects of gameplay. for example tying character interaction into styles would force players to choose between interacting with characters they like and using the style they are best with unless they are lucky enough that their best style and favorite character are linked. doing something like that takes away more options than it gives.
 
They can turn the game into a free roam once story mode has been completed. No need for a big city, just the head quarters and may be a few blocks
 
They can turn the game into a free roam once story mode has been completed. No need for a big city, just the head quarters and may be a few blocks
that would require major changes to the structure of the game that don't really fit with Devil May Cry's gameplay or any of the stories that have been done so far.
 
there isn't really much downtime Devil May Cry games tend to focus on a single large event or in DmC's case a series of events happening in quick succession with no break,

Au contraire, I think you'll find that DmC's plot pacing is very conducive to downtime. Unlike the previous DMC games, which usually revolved around the protagonist racing through an unfurling crisis situation in one large, consistent environment, DmC has it's story broken up into separate areas and episodes that have an undetermined period of time between them. That's why DmC has time to have bits like Kat telling Dante about her abusive foster father in deadpan while they ride between locales, or the times when they're sitting around the Order HQ discussing their next move. They are literally breaks in the action intended to develop the characters and create drama, utterly separate from the gameplay.

They abandoned the tense, fast-paced atmosphere of the preceding games for a far more languishing, relaxed tone by comparison. I just suggest that they fill that vacuum with something more meaningful than the dull cinematics DmC is inundated with.

for example tying character interaction into styles would force players to choose between interacting with characters they like and using the style they are best with unless they are lucky enough that their best style and favorite character are linked. doing something like that takes away more options than it gives.

Or it compliments the player's interactions with the gameplay and characters simultaneously. Imagine if you really love playing as a Royal Guard, but you really hate the character who has that Style. By fighting alongside that character and gradually discovering their hidden depths just as you unlock powers for Dante to use, you could grow to have a greater appreciation for the character, or at least come to anticipate where the next plot twist will push your relationship with them. By design, the game can incentivise behaviour from the player they wouldn't normally consider, and coax more replay value out of the same gameplay to provide greater longevity.

Any design concept is a double edged sword, but you have to be willing to consider that the benefits can outweigh the risks in the end.
 
The problem with DmC's more inconsistent pacing was the fact that they felt the need to continue the twenty mission tradition in every Devil May Cry in the past.
It wasn't necessary to fit this dynamic. The game would have benefited with a longer run time.
 
Or it compliments the player's interactions with the gameplay and characters simultaneously. Imagine if you really love playing as a Royal Guard, but you really hate the character who has that Style. By fighting alongside that character and gradually discovering their hidden depths just as you unlock powers for Dante to use, you could grow to have a greater appreciation for the character, or at least come to anticipate where the next plot twist will push your relationship with them. By design, the game can incentivise behaviour from the player they wouldn't normally consider, and coax more replay value out of the same gameplay to provide greater longevity.

Any design concept is a double edged sword, but you have to be willing to consider that the benefits can outweigh the risks in the end.
I can only speak for myself, but I really wouldn't want that in a Devil May Cry game :/ That way - unless I misunderstood you somewhere in which case I am sorry - there would have to be different ways in which the story can play out, depending on your relatioship with each character. I'm not a fan of that 'multiple-choice' type of story telling, it's ok in RPGs where you've got a character that is basically a representation of yourself, but in games like DMC/DmC where you're playing a character that already has defined characteristics and behaviour patterns, it would always leave me with the question "So, what did now really happen?".
And what if I just can't appreciate that character? What if I simply can't stand them? It'd annoy me greately that I'd have to spend time with them despite disliking them so much.


But I do agree that they could do something with a hub world, however, it should be additional.
A little like the old games, where you could walk around the castle in DMC1, for example, and interact with some objects like book shelves, to give you additional information about the story, just that they could do it more extensive. For example, instead of simply having and Mission Select screen and a cutscene triggering automatically, they could allow you to walk around freely in some smaller, closed off sections to interact with the environment and maybe trigger some adtional, but not nessesary to follow the story as a whole, cutsecenes, or find objects that may tell you some more detail or something like that, until you've finished exporing.
That playground scene coul have worked like that, you'd be allowed to explore the environment for a bit and discover what Dante thinks or remembers on his own, and when you're done exploring, approach Vergil to trigger the cutscene where he tells their story.
It would have also been possible to do something with the Order that way, like, before planning to take out Virility and RNN, Vergil could have told Dante to 'make himself at home until he's ready to plan the next step' or something like that, allowing you to walk around the headquaters, talk to some other members and view some of the information the Order had accumulated, without it taking away anything from what will happen next or making the story un-understandable without having discovered everything.

The problem with DmC's more inconsistent pacing was the fact that they felt the need to continue the twenty mission tradition in every Devil May Cry in the past.
It wasn't necessary to fit this dynamic. The game would have benefited with a longer run time.
I think it's not only that, because some missions, like the Bob Barbas and Mundus Spawn ones, could have either been part of another mission or extended upon.
Looking at how much dialogue - dialogue that has even been already recorded - has been left out, I'd assume that they either wanted to or had to shorten the game, because it might have become a little too story heavy for a DMC title. Or they didn't have the money. Either way, it's deeply regrettable :ermm:
 
So?
Innovation is required at some point.
innovation is when you make changes that fit and improve something. changing the structure of a game to a less suitable form in order to add in a concept that doesn't fit is not in any way anything even vaguely resembling innovation.

Au contraire, I think you'll find that DmC's plot pacing is very conducive to downtime. Unlike the previous DMC games, which usually revolved around the protagonist racing through an unfurling crisis situation in one large, consistent environment, DmC has it's story broken up into separate areas and episodes that have an undetermined period of time between them. That's why DmC has time to have bits like Kat telling Dante about her abusive foster father in deadpan while they ride between locales, or the times when they're sitting around the Order HQ discussing their next move. They are literally breaks in the action intended to develop the characters and create drama, utterly separate from the gameplay.

They abandoned the tense, fast-paced atmosphere of the preceding games for a far more languishing, relaxed tone by comparison. I just suggest that they fill that vacuum with something more meaningful than the dull cinematics DmC is inundated with.
there are only two points where it would be possible to hang out in the order headquarters and they have better things to do than random conversations (character development which is included in the story because this isn't a WRPG and killing demons which is the point of the game)


Or it compliments the player's interactions with the gameplay and characters simultaneously. Imagine if you really love playing as a Royal Guard, but you really hate the character who has that Style. By fighting alongside that character and gradually discovering their hidden depths just as you unlock powers for Dante to use, you could grow to have a greater appreciation for the character, or at least come to anticipate where the next plot twist will push your relationship with them. By design, the game can incentivise behaviour from the player they wouldn't normally consider, and coax more replay value out of the same gameplay to provide greater longevity.

Any design concept is a double edged sword, but you have to be willing to consider that the benefits can outweigh the risks in the end.
connecting unrelated concepts limits player options with no benefit. character interaction is decided by the situation (eg. Dante talks to whoever is in the same room as him at the moment), what moves are used is decided by what would allow the person currently playing to resolve the situation they are currently dealing with in a stylish and effective manner. connecting story and gameplay should be done by the events of the the story affecting gameplay and the rules of gameplay being given an explanation in story, not by turning combat tactics into choices in a dating sim.

Imagine this scenario a: DMC game is made with this feature. Swordmaster is connected to Trish, Gunslinger is connected to Lady. in addition to making massive changes to the the structure of the game for no good reason you have now tied combat into shipping. now imagine a player that rely's heavily on the Swordmaster style but ships Dante with Lady because Trish looks like his mom and that is just creepy. now what style is the player going to use? Gunslinger. and what style is that player going to avoid? Swordmaster. now would this improve the player's experience or would suddenly switching style make the already difficult game even more difficult in the most frustrating manner possible? even masochistic players who want the most ridiculously difficult challenge possible would want to be able to choose that challenge of their own will. sane players would throw their controller out the window. their are no benefits and a guaranteed bad outcome is a bit more than a risk. ( note: being forced to put up with a character you do not like would not make you like the character it would make you hate the people who made the game in addition to the character so choosing based on gameplay wouldn't be any less irritating and if there is something that would make the character better it really should be included in the actual story instead of unnecessary optional things that get in the way of the story)
 
I think it's not only that, because some missions, like the Bob Barbas and Mundus Spawn ones, could have either been part of another mission or extended upon.
Looking at how much dialogue - dialogue that has even been already recorded - has been left out, I'd assume that they either wanted to or had to shorten the game, because it might have become a little too story heavy for a DMC title. Or they didn't have the money. Either way, it's deeply regrettable :ermm:
I'd bet money that it had something to do with Capcom's numerous changes to the game.
 
You reminded me of my favorite scene from Infamous 2. They're not talking... but that just makes the scene that much better.

Cool cutscene, man! I've get this game for free on Plus last week and was playing it for a while, i've got to admit that the game surprised me. I'm prone to "hate" sandbox-style games, but this one was kinda different, i'm actually enjoying playing it and liked the "karma"-system and all this "comic-like" story. I found the characters to be very cool too.

But yeah, i think that Macabre just hit a real good point to hack'n'slashes to explore. The "social system" in Oni 2 was very raw and simple but it was somehow a little satisfying. Although my favourite Oni game is Oni 3, i think that it was a thing that could have been improved to give a little more depth to the storytelling and characters. Cool way to give more content to the story without hurting your fun while beating the hell out of enemies.

If DmC2 take these kind of things as inspiration it could turn out to be a really good game story-wise. As Macabre said, these days people rely too much on cinematics and things like this to make a good story, even MGS that is a franchise that i love use too much cinematics; but i can't really complain because the most immersive and cooler moments are expressed in gameplay itself, but MGS4 was an example that lacked a bit of these gameplay immersive momments and settings and overused cinematics.
 
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