ESSAY- The Pro-Life Problem: Is it a problem at all?

[Meg]

Please share your thoughts on the essay, the thesis, and/or the topic in general.

The Pro-Life Problem: Is it a Problem at all?




The abortion debate has been going on for years now and it’s obvious that the two sides of the argument, pro-life and pro-choice, do not respect each other or their opinions. All one has to do is drive past an abortion clinic and see the protesters holding up signs of aborted fetuses and screaming at the women being escorted inside to see were the disdain is. Those people are exercising their right to protest, but in a way that attacks women getting an abortion: women who have enough on their mind already.

It’s easy to understand why some pro-choice identified people dislikes and in some cases loathes the pro-life side. Who wouldn’t dislike someone that screams in people’s faces that they are going to hell? And it’s not just the people, but the ideas held by pro-life supporters that the other side dislikes and dismisses as wrong.

To be pro-life means that you oppose abortion by any means because aborting an unborn baby is seen as murder. Fair enough. On the other side you have the people who are pro-choice and they believe that women deserve the right to choose what they do with their body. After all what they choose to do is going to effect them more than anyone else. Another fair point.

Reasonable people can have a mature discussion that expresses their ideas and eventually come to an agreement; even if the agreement is that they disagree. However, reason is often absent in a debate so controversial as abortion. On one side you have protesters screaming about how “abortion supporters” are going to hell and even going so far as to attack and kill doctors that preform abortion. On the other side you have people who think so lowly of the pro-life side that they dub them “anti-choice” instead and even lump all pro-life people into one category: the kind that screams and murders.

The thing is, not all pro-life people are like those extremists. Every group is going to have a sub-group that is far to extreme, and in this case out of control, that then reflects poorly onto the group as a whole. Just because you are pro-life doesn’t mean that you support the actions of those extremists and for someone to make that judgment is wrong. Even worse is that many pro-choice people identify themselves as feminists. Feminism has been stereotyped as being made up of bra-burning, men hating women on their periods. That is not what feminism is about. It is simply the belief that all men and women, regardless of class, race, sexual orientation, etc., should have equal social, political, and economic rights. Feminism is essentially the belief in equal rights for everyone. However, there are some extremists within feminism that create and reinforce that negative stereotype and make the rest of the group look terrible. Considering that you think feminists wouldn’t be so quick to judge and lump all pro-life people into one extremist category, but they do. Quite simply, that is hypocrisy.

The people who would hurt and kill people who support abortion are wrong and deserve to be in jail. Being pro-life does not mean you support the killing of innocent people. Voting against abortion does not mean you condone the acts of the extremists. It means you are a free-thinking individual with your own set of opinions and you have the right to not only have those opinions, but to act on them. A person may vote against abortion if they wish just as much as someone may vote for it. The pro-choice attitude in general is that you either fully support a woman’s right to a safe abortion if she feels she really needs it, or you are a horrible person.

This black and white way of thinking makes it difficult and awkward for people who identify themselves as pro-life feminists: even if they believe that a woman may get an abortion if she was raped, or if the pregnancy would be dangerous to her health they. To many pro-choice supporters they are still wrong and terrible. They are no better than the extremists. This puts pro-life feminists, namely me, in a very awkward spot where they feel as if their opinions are not welcome anywhere, and so they are not welcome anywhere.

I am pro-life with said exceptions, but I do not condone nor support the behavior of the extremists that would hurt, both physically and mentally, those that disagree with them. I believe that to get an abortion, excluding in the case of rape or medical reasons, is morally wrong. However, I also believe that women who feel they need an abortion for any reason are under enough stress that they do not need me telling them I think they are morally wrong. Just no. So I prefer to keep my mouth shut on the issue because I would rather see women getting safe abortions, as much as I hate it and wish they didn’t, than see them get a back ally abortion and die in the process. I hate abortion and I think it should be inaccessible to women who don’t need one for medical reasons, or worse because they were raped, but I am not about to force such opinions onto those women because I can not even begin to understand what they are going through.

I am not about to ask other pro-life people to do the same though. Everyone has a right to protest. If someone wants to protest abortion they can because it is their right. Other people don’t have to agree with what they say, but it is still their right and respect should be given to those that present their opinion in a mature manner. As for those that would scream and harm others: turn away from them. Many of those people use religion, especially Christianity, as justification for what they are doing. In the face of those people, demonstrate proper Christianity and turn away from them, but refrain from judging them. And that goes for both sides of the argument.

 

[ZeroLove]

This was a really nice essay and you make some really good points. I'm more the kind who think it is up to the mother what to do with an unborn baby, but I also believe in alternate solutions such as adoption.

 

[Angel]

I'm actually a trained counsellor in crisis pregnancy under the CARE organisation. Now yes, it is a Christian thingy, but the emphasis is on encouraging the couple (where appropriate) but definitely the woman to make an informed choice about whether to continue a pregnancy or not. Under no circumstances may we push our own agenda and to do so would be, quite honestly, bang out of order.

The issue of rape is a rather interesting one and often hotly debated by both sides of the abortion subject...I know of a couple of people personally who have continued with their pregnancies after being raped and finding great joy in the child they birthed but similarly I would be in complete understanding should someone come to me and want to discuss the option of an abortion because of such an act. It takes great courage regardless of the choice made. There is no such thing as an "easy choice" when it comes to an unwanted pregnancy or a problem that would mean making the decision between continuing and ending a pregnancy.

I am pro-choice. That does not mean I am for abortion, however, because I most certainly am not. What I mean by pro-choice is that I am all for supporting the woman REGARDLESS of her decision. Just because I am against abortion does not mean I have a right to push that onto someone else. If they ask me, I'll be honest but I will never ever tell them they ought to think my way. I know four women who were friends/colleagues who chose abortion and all of them were in very different circumstance - I may not have agreed with their decision but it was their decision to make and not mine.

The only time I have really taken issue with abortion is when one of the aforementioned people used abortion as a form of contraception. Rather than be responsible in the first place, she repeatedly fell pregnant to a string of one night stands and just booked herself in to "get rid of the problem" (her words). To date she's had about 6 terminations and she would happily continue to carry on this way despite the dangers involved. Regardless of my personal beliefs in this matter, no one could agree that this is a sensible and wholly safe plan of action as a permanent measure.

 

[V]

I've kind of given up on having big blanket beliefs about things. The world is a complicated place and the more you look into it, the less black and white it becomes. I look at it in two ways: there is my belief about a subject, which is important to me, and then there are other people's. I only impose my belief about a subject on myself, and in the end, I do what is best logically and emotionally for myself. I don't judge other people's situations and tell them what to do, because I *don't know* what would be best for them, with their life and their personality. This is one of those subjects though where you have to make a decision for someone else, the unborn someone. And the person best qualified to do that would be the person who was going to have to take care of that unborn someone, logically speaking.

In the case of abortion (a subject I have some personal knowledge of), I don't think there is anyone out there who would be qualified to blanket-judge every situation that ever arose on it with a simple dismissal of "pro-life" or "pro-choice". Which is why bigots on both sides of the argument irritate me. They can't know - and don't care to know - the details, because if you have to look at the details, you will be forced to acknowledge you don't always know what is for the best.

It certainly wasn't that simple as I recall it. Making a choice like that can be simple *and* difficult, relieving *and* awful. It depends on the circumstance, the reasons for, and the people involved. In my case, personal illness. But you would be surprised just how often people think of children as though they are sacred, but with almost no concern or consideration for the emotional and physical needs of the child and the environment it will be born into, or whether it will be properly taken care of. How often new life is thought of as something to be protected, but once born, it is no longer of the same amount of concern. Perhaps I am really a natural mother at heart although I never got to be one, because THAT is immediately what I would be thinking of - if this life is going to live, will it be properly cared for, fed and clothed, will it have enough love? Will I be able to parent it properly? Because if it isn't provided for, it will suffer, and I really don't like to see children suffering.

It goes back to a debate I had with my own mother about starving kids in Africa. We are both somewhat pro-choice, but she would say "they have ten kids because they know only three will survive. They should have kids even if they will die, because all life is beautiful even if it only lives for a month." And I have always felt, strongly inside, that while life *is* beautiful, this is wrong. Life shouldn't be given just so it can suffer and die soon after, it should be properly provided for first, so that it can live the best possible way. If life can't be good, I would rather it were not given than given badly. I feel very strongly about suffering, and I did not have a great childhood in some ways myself, so this laissez-faire attitude (like that from some radical pro-lifers or pro-death penalty people) bothers me. It almost feels like "life at any cost" to the point of not even caring about life, the idea just being stripped down to some bare scruple that actually has no regard for the life itself and what that life will have to endure. That is not 'caring' about life, that is caring about one's own principles on it.

But this is my personal belief about suffering. If someone is going to be born just to suffer, die or to be abandoned or abused, I don't think it best that it lives for the sake of life. Just as I don't think it best that people who are old and suffering or ill and suffering are not given the option to end their own lives if they want to. Life is not precious in that way to me. It depends on the person involved and their view of course. Some people will want to live as long as possible regardless of pain and some will want to end their suffering or die with dignity or whatever. For me, life's value is relative, not absolute.

An interesting debate case would be those parents who were in the the news a couple of years back for having a couple of children with the rare skin disease ichthyosis. (Don't Google this disease unless you want to see some pretty horrible pictures, particularly the 'harlequin' variety of it, which is the most extreme form of it.) These two kids had to moisturize their skin constantly, wear special clothes and bathe several times a day to prevent it cracking apart, and they couldn't lead a normal life as a result, as they could never just go out or do normal things. The parents apparently knew that their genetic combination would produce another child with the same condition and they opted to have another child. On the one hand, they obviously cared for their first two children and felt that the disease was no barrier to them, but are they not just considering their own point of view and not the point of view of the children or potential children? Is is responsible to create a baby who will be born severely diseased, in pain, and unable to lead a normal life? If their child was born with the rarer and more severe harlequin form of the condition it would be unlikely to survive at all, or would live a matter of days with its eye sockets and lips turned inside out. Clearly, any of these poor kids born with harlequin are in pain and are not meant to live long. It seems nature is more merciful than human beings when it comes to some things.

I always feel parenting shouldn't so much be about what you - the parent - want, or believe, but about giving your kids the best start in life. A lot of people don't, though.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Labels. Don't you love them? I don't support abortion nor do I encourage it because in my eyes, it is murdering the creation of life. I'll quote my usual statement in this matter: if it's got a heartbeat, it's alive. Label-lovers will call me Pro-Life. But then, there are the exceptions: molar pregnancies, ectopic pregnancies - the kind of pregnancies that put both mum or bubs or both at risk of dying. In the Phillipenes, abortion is illegal under any circumstances, so medical staff watched a mum who already had three children die a slow death with her unborn baby because there was nothing they could do. Do I condone this? No. If they had aborted the baby, there wouldn't be three children without a mother. Another example would be the women who have back ally abortions, who run the risk of dying in the long messy process of aborting their baby because they can't afford to take care of it, or because it's a product of rape, whatever causes them despair to go through the pregnancy. Is it right for them to suffer in silence? No. They should have the right to have medical help to abort. Does this make me Pro-Choice?

This is a really great thread and I thought I'd get in here while I can because this hits home for me.

My best friend was in a situation 5 years ago where she had no job, she was sleeping around with two guys, and she was already a divorced mother of one little boy that her parents had custody over. She fell pregnant around the same time I did, although she broke her news to me first and told me she's been looking at having an abortion. I asked her why, and she told me that her new fling (whom she assumes is the father) suggested it because 1 - he doesn't have the money to support a child (but he had cash to go out drinking and clubbing every night?), 2 - he can barely support himself as it were (does he know that he won't be the only one taking care of this kid?), 3 - but he'll fork out the cash and take her for an abortion himself (...just wow).

Her only reason was because she was afraid of her parents' reaction to falling pregnant for the second time. I did kind of fly off the handle at her and told her that she shouldn't even be considering abortion as an option, and if she went through with it I would never speak to her again, and some other overly dramatic spew that left my mouth before my brain caught up. We sat down again a wee while later and I apologised for my initial reaction, but all I wanted her to know is that she does have the option of keeping her baby. Nobody else around her said she could keep it. Everyone was 'get rid of it, it's an inconvenience'. I personally knew her mother would never forgive her if she went through with it, and my best friend really sucks at being a mum because she shrugs all her responsibilities off onto HER mum so she can live the 'free' life. But she wasn't planning on letting her mum find out about this. I'm just happy I was there to be the opposition and give her another choice. You don't have to get 'rid of it'. You can keep your baby. Yes, I realise I won't be the one dealing with the repercussions of late nights and stress about money and all the pains and worries that revolve around bearing a child. But I do realise that you will be the one who sits five, ten years from now, wondering what gender your baby would have been, how old, what you would have named it, what life would have been like had you chosen to ride it out. You will be dealing with the loss and the 'what if's' and the doubt, not your so-called 'friends'. In five to ten years they would have forgotten about this. They don't have to live with the choices you make. You need to think for yourself and inform yourself before you take action.

She ended up keeping her baby, who was born two months after mine.

Then there's my cousin who fell pregnant at 16. She had a stillbirth. A few years later she had another baby, this time a boy who was healthy and whom is now in college. A few years ago, she had an abortion because she didn't want to have the child of the guy she was living with at the time. She aborted for convenience sake. How she is capable of doing this after losing a baby before, I just cannot comprehend. I mean, when my cousins' 19 year old daughter passed away in a car crash, my heart was shattered. Not for myself but for my cousin and his wife. Having children of my own, I understood what they had lost, and there truly are no words to put to how devastating and dark and hollow and hurtful it is to lose a part of yourself. Because that's what children are, they're part of us.

As for myself, the word abortion kept cropping up in every instance of my pregnancies. My first pregnancy was unplanned and at a bad time since my boyfriend and I had just split up. Being the good guy he is, he stepped up to his duty as daddy and took care of me as best he could. When I told my mum I'm expecting and that she mustn't tell anyone yet (because I was going back to live with my boyfriend in another three weeks), she eventually broke down and begged me to let her talk to my dad about it. And I don't mean a break down of excitement and joy. She was terrified about what would become of me and she needed to confide in my dad. I still have absolutely no idea why. My dad is a very difficult person. To put it nicely. I set up the condition that she could tell my dad, but she'd better do it when they're out of the house and far away from home because I didn't want to present to see my dad's reaction to the news. Which, turns out, was exactly what I was expecting. He blew his lid, said 'I'm not raising another child! She's going for an abortion!' Because I had nothing at that stage in my life. I was 20, I had no drivers lisence, I had no job, and I was pretty much still dependant on my parents to keep me fed and clothed.

So. Baby #1 was not welcomed. My parents practically disowned me (for shame!), and my relationship with bubs' daddy was very rocky and miserable. I had to move to an area where I had no friends or family for support, where I literally felt like I was alone in this, despite my boyfriend providing for me (materialistically). I was about three weeks along when I found out, and at six weeks I started to suffer from severe morning sickness. It lasted straight through the pregnancy. It immobilised me. To top it off, I was depressed, which continued to evolve into PND (post natal depression) after the birth. I remember one time that I had the urge to step in front of a bus. No exaggeration. My boyfriend and I were walking around the block with our 3 week old baby in the buggy, and I heard the bus come speeding up the busy road behind us, and I thought 'there's no way they'll break in time, I just have to time it right, just a little jump to the left into the road and it will all be over'. The feeling terrified me because it was so strong.

We relocated to a foreign country two months later and I had absolutely no one. My PND evolved into PNP (post natal psychosis). I was getting thoughts and feelings that I started to believe were coming from some outside force, and I experienced many incidents of sleep paralysis during that time, which did not help my situation.

Things were over with my boyfriend and me. There was too much tension and frustration and anger. We split up. I couldn't deal with the thought of him taking my daughter away from me, even though part of me wanted him to. I became suicidal, and after a failed attempt I found out that I was pregnant again. How inconvenient!!! I mean really, bloody bad timing, aye! A friend of mine suggested I have an abortion. I had reached the lowest point of my life at this stage: I felt worthless, helpless, I hated myself and the thoughts I was having, I didn't trust myself around my boyfriend and baby, I was seeing things, I was going (pardon moi french)batshit crazy, and I was absolutely and utterly convinced that if I took myself out of the picture, I'd rid the world of a kink and everything will just snap into place, and everyone will be better off, and life will have its colour and cheer back, and everything would be as it should be. But abortion? I would rather suffer through another long, trying, ill pregnancy than have this little being removed from my tummy just because I didn't feel I was the best person to be having children. I was just so shocked that my friend would dare suggest I do such a thing. I would rather live my life and struggle through it with my kids than have an abortion and be left with the nagging doubts or thoughts about what it would have been like, had I chosen to have it.


You often hear parents say they couldn't imagine life without their kids. The truth is really that we can imagine life without our kids, it's just that we choose not to because life without them would be barren and without true joy and love and purpose.

Just before we found out we're expecting Seth, my hubby told me on a whim that we need to make precautions because if we fall pregnant again, he's worried that he won't be able to provide for a third child so we'll need to have an abortion. Just before we found out we're expecting Seth, our eldest was also diagnosed with Autism. They say with every subsequent pregnancy, the risk to have another autistic child increases. (as it currently stands, I think my son might be an Aspie)

Did I consider abortion? According to a Pro-Choice lady, I shouldn't have to deal with these complications. I should choose to have a happy life, free of all these stresses. In other words, I shouldn't be so selfless and give so much of myself so that others can live, because it doesn't benefit me. This woman was practically tearing me to shreds prior to me letting slip that I was in a bad place, emotionally and psychologically. Then suddenly she does a 360 and tries to give me advice! (like OMG really, lulz). I never considered abortion as an option (that word does not exist in my vocabulary). Not even if everyone around me told me I had every right to. Why should I abort a part of myself just because there's a strong possibility that it won't fit into society? Because society says it's okay? It doesn't meet their standards so eliminate it?

Anyway, my anti-abortion stand used to be powered by morals alone. Until I actually did some digging to see why I should be against abortion. People have abortions done in the first trimester, mostly. I don't know how they can justify it. If you can abort whilst it's still just a bundle of cells in the process of duplicating, then you're getting rid of the tissue that would have formed a baby. But considering for the most part, women only find out they're expecting when they're about 5 weeks along. It takes them another couple of weeks to make up their minds on abortion/get an appointment. At 8 weeks, an embryo is sucking its thumb, and is aware of its surroundings. It's got a beating heart. Maybe it doesn't resemble a human baby (yet) but that doesn't mean it's not another human being. Babies are born from 20 weeks onward. Tiny tiny little things, but babies no less. Miscarriages are most common in the first trimester. At 13 weeks, a foetus looks like a baby and can fit in the palm of your hand.

I won't go into graphic detail as to what abortion consists of, to spare the kiddies the horror. But it's brutal, and inhumane. It's the darkest part of humanity and it's a slap in the face for women who have suffered the loss of an embryo/foetus/baby/child. People are ignorant to the reality of what they're doing. I'm not saying abortionists need to die and I'm not saying women who had no choice but to abort should be ashamed.
But women who want abortions for convenience should be shown exactly what it is they are about to do. Because anyone with a grain of sense and empathy would rather tough it out than have an abortion, if their ignorance was replaced with the reality.

/ramble over

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

I've written enough about this debate on messageboards to publish it, so I'm going to do my best to be brief. The essay's weak point is that it seems to operate under an assumption that a major gripe for pro-choice people is how extreme the other side is when it comes to "screaming in their face". Just not true. As you said Meg, there are crazies for every political opinion under the sun. As a pro-choicer the thing that baffles me the most is how the "because I respect life" argument devalues the mother's rights and paints her as a headsman. Meanwhile these people I discuss it with are planning on going out and having six children and never adopting a single kid. Response? "Oh, someone will come along for him." I'm not saying that's every pro-lifer's justification and it's not the only reasoning I've encountered but it's a pretty prevalent one.

I had a whole other paragraph written out but I'm just going put the Ron Paul argument.
In the constitution you are guaranteed 3 basic rights. Life, liberty, happiness. You can't limit a person's right or pass laws to determine when it is morally correct to have a certain right. Government was never meant to draw that line. You must have been born to qualify as a citizen, therefore those rights are not yet allowed to you by the United States government. Anyone who is pro life has the right to freely decide for themselves whether it's right for them to get an abortion just as anyone who is pro choice should be allowed the same freedom.

Now, on the topic of feminism I am a bit more inclined towards viewing them as extremists. I'm not saying the cause is wrong or anything, but I get the feeling that they're bringing a bazooka to a gun fight if you catch my meaning. I've met a few feminists that seemed to believe in being a bit more than equal, and their opinions of men were pretty disgusting. I'm probably a hypocrite for grouping feminists together for what a few people think of men but we all judge these different groups from personal experience, right?
For me equality is a no brainer. I can get down with that. But I don't think it warrants the same overkill tactic that they had to use for the civil rights movement. Women are reaching an equal level in society. I read recently that for employment out of college (and graduating for that matter) women are ahead by a significant number.

 

[Meg]

/ramble over

*hugs!* I'm sorry you had to go through all that, DS! ;_; I certainly get what you are saying about how women who get an abortion for connivence are wrong. There are a lot of misconceptions surrounding abortions. I know a lot of pro-choice people spend time explaining that abortion is a very safe procedure (for the mother) and that's true, but I have also seen some people take what the procedure is very lightly. It's like, they want the mother to make up her own mind, but they make one option (abortion) seem more appealing than the others by not really explaining what it entails. I doubt they are consciously trying to influence the mother's decision though.

Do you guys think better education on abortion and other things like birth control are in order? I don't know about how your schools are, but the ones I know of yell "DON'T HAVE SEX!!!!" but they don't say what to do if you get pregnant or an STD. So when a student does experience one of those things they don't know what to do. I think school's should better educate about how to have safe sex and what options exist if things go south.

I've written enough about this debate on messageboards to publish it, so I'm going to do my best to be brief. The essay's weak point is that it seems to operate under an assumption that a major gripe for pro-choice people is how extreme the other side is when it comes to "screaming in their face". Just not true. As you said Meg, there are crazies for every political opinion under the sun.

Ah, I'm heavily involved in women's studies and feminist issues. I'm surrounded by pro-choice feminists and their ideas a lot. I was writing the essay with the feminists I have come into contact with in mind. I did mean the essay to be more"this is what I've noticed some people do" rather than "this is how the group as a whole is." I'll revise some word choice to make sure my purpose comes out more.

As a pro-choicer the thing that baffles me the most is how the "because I respect life" argument devalues the mother's rights and paints her as a headsman. Meanwhile these people I discuss it with are planning on going out and having six children and never adopting a single kid. Response? "Oh, someone will come along for him." I'm not saying that's every pro-lifer's justification and it's not the only reasoning I've encountered but it's a pretty prevalent one.

I want to adopt! I wish more people considered it an option. Especially people who think women should put the kid up for adoption. How about giving some of those kids a home, huh? I feel like some pro-life people are so set on the mom not getting an abortion for their sake that they don't really care about what happens to the kid once it's out of the oven.

I had a whole other paragraph written out but I'm just going put the Ron Paul argument.
In the constitution you are guaranteed 3 basic rights. Life, liberty, happiness. You can't limit a person's right or pass laws to determine when it is morally correct to have a certain right. Government was never meant to draw that line. You must have been born to qualify as a citizen, therefore those rights are not yet allowed to you by the United States government. Anyone who is pro life has the right to freely decide for themselves whether it's right for them to get an abortion just as anyone who is pro choice should be allowed the same freedom.

What does it mean to be born? According to Shakespeare one must be born the traditional way in order to be "of woman born." Me and MacDuff were both c-section babies and so not actually "born." I guess that means I don't have any rights then. XD

Jokes aside, what you brought up, Cheez, is a valid point. People can talk about the right to be born and everything, but American rights do not protect you if you have not been born yet. So you don't have American rights, but what about human rights? Does a person have the human right to be born? I would think so, but since a baby can't let the doctor know then how does anyone know if the kid wants to be born? Does the kid know?! I doubt it. So it's up to the mom to decide and saying that she doesn't want the kid to be born for her own sake (huuuuuge generalization) is selfish. That doesn't make it wrong though! There are tons of factors that go into whether or not a woman keeps the baby. Oh crap I'm rambling...

Now, on the topic of feminism I am a bit more inclined towards viewing them as extremists. I'm not saying the cause is wrong or anything, but I get the feeling that they're bringing a bazooka to a gun fight if you catch my meaning. I've met a few feminists that seemed to believe in being a bit more than equal, and their opinions of men were pretty disgusting. I'm probably a hypocrite for grouping feminists together for what a few people think of men but we all judge these different groups from personal experience, right?
For me equality is a no brainer. I can get down with that. But I don't think it warrants the same overkill tactic that they had to use for the civil rights movement. Women are reaching an equal level in society. I read recently that for employment out of college (and graduating for that matter) women are ahead by a significant number.

The women who believe that have such negative views on men are not feminists. You can call yourself a painter, but if you've never held a brush then you aren't one. You can call yourself a feminist, but if you believe women are better than men then you aren't one. Simple as that.

And I have to disagree with you Cheez on feminists bringing a bazooka to a gun fight. Some feminists are extreme, I agree, but not all of them are and I'd think you'd be surprised that more often than not feminists aren't like that. As we've both said, every group has its extremists and unfortunately the extremists are the ones that stick out the most and grab the most attention.

One of the biggest obstacles feminists face (I think) is how little people realize how much more needs to be done. People are under the assumption that women are equal (or close to being equal) when that is in fact not true. Or sure, women in America have it better than women in other countries, but that doesn't mean we have it all or whatever. Besides, feminism isn't an American thing, it's a global thing and real feminists are concerned with helping women around the world.

If you give me a few minutes I can put together a list of statistics and facts that show how not equal some areas of society are for men and women. (Because feminism is about improving things for men as well.)

 

[Angel]

On the subject of adoption, just briefly, I don't know if I could actually do that - give up a child for someone else to raise. Sure, I may not want it but I don't want anyone else to have it either. No idea really as to where that mentality comes from but it's kind of my gut reaction. Someone can psychoanalyze that one for me if they want

I had one unplanned and utterly unwanted child and the only reason I did not abort was because when it came down to it, I was too frightened. Took me over 2 years to accept her and another 6 to accept I was a parent. Adoption never cropped up as an option because my (now ex) boyfriend was like "have it or get rid - but no one else is having it". And I just thought "well if I have to go through all the uncomfortable stuff of pregnancy and then the birth, it feels like a wasted effort for someone to sweep in and take the baby once it's all over". But to look at my circumstances on paper, adoption or abortion would have been the "better" choices all round, other than the fact that Jessica would not be here now. I was homeless, penniless and 18 - hardly an ideal kiddy-raising environment.

/incoherent tangent-style babbling

You may now continue with your intelligent conversation

 

[cheezMcNASTY]

I want to adopt! I wish more people considered it an option. Especially people who think women should put the kid up for adoption. How about giving some of those kids a home, huh? I feel like some pro-life people are so set on the mom not getting an abortion for their sake that they don't really care about what happens to the kid once it's out of the oven.

I'm glad you consider it an option. It's refreshing to hear of a pro-lifer who's willing to demonstrate what they think is right on a personal level.

What does it mean to be born? According to Shakespeare one must be born the traditional way in order to be "of woman born." Me and MacDuff were both c-section babies and so not actually "born." I guess that means I don't have any rights then. XD

There is that argument. I'm a C-section baby too. As long as I'm quoting the legal jargon we both got birth certificates, didn't we?

Jokes aside, what you brought up, Cheez, is a valid point. People can talk about the right to be born and everything, but American rights do not protect you if you have not been born yet. So you don't have American rights, but what about human rights? Does a person have the human right to be born? I would think so, but since a baby can't let the doctor know then how does anyone know if the kid wants to be born? Does the kid know?! I doubt it. So it's up to the mom to decide and saying that she doesn't want the kid to be born for her own sake (huuuuuge generalization) is selfish. That doesn't make it wrong though! There are tons of factors that go into whether or not a woman keeps the baby. Oh crap I'm rambling...

You may be right about human rights, but then I challenge you by asking whether a government should really have the power to make that decision for everybody. It's a dangerous line to cross, and it opens a door to a world where the government is deciding what's okay and not okay for you to do. It doesn't respect your right to choose nor does it respect your ability to make the right decisions for yourself. If heroin or meth were legalized, how many people do you think would just go out and start doing it?
I think it's better left as a personal decision, which is more the essence of a democracy when it comes to these things. Whether a baby has the right to be born is something of a loaded question, just as I could ask you "doesn't a mother have the right to say what she can do with her own body?" I agree there are lots of factors at play. We can leave all the ifs/thans for another time.

And I have to disagree with you Cheez on feminists bringing a bazooka to a gun fight. Some feminists are extreme, I agree, but not all of them are and I'd think you'd be surprised that more often than not feminists aren't like that. As we've both said, every group has its extremists and unfortunately the extremists are the ones that stick out the most and grab the most attention.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're behind a cause then you're bound to think it requires action. I agree, I wouldn't say women are equal to men on every level yet, but I would argue that the cause is moving closer to it's goal rather than further. I cited that fact only to mark progress, which I hope is the case. Personally I think that progress is more the result of the tides of change than feminism activity, but I welcome it regardless. I hope you aren't insulted by that. I'm of the opinion that thinking of it as a good thing is more important than why you think it got that way.

I support your cause, don't hit me. :'(

One of the biggest obstacles feminists face (I think) is how little people realize how much more needs to be done. People are under the assumption that women are equal (or close to being equal) when that is in fact not true. Or sure, women in America have it better than women in other countries, but that doesn't mean we have it all or whatever. Besides, feminism isn't an American thing, it's a global thing and real feminists are concerned with helping women around the world.

If you give me a few minutes I can put together a list of statistics and facts that show how not equal some areas of society are for men and women. (Because feminism is about improving things for men as well.)

For the sake of starting up another topic of discussion I'm just going to post another comic. I'm not too convinced on the Afghan woman's opinion though. They do some pretty messed up stuff over there.

 

[Meg]

You may be right about human rights, but then I challenge you by asking whether a government should really have the power to make that decision for everybody. It's a dangerous line to cross, and it opens a door to a world where the government is deciding what's okay and not okay for you to do. It doesn't respect your right to choose nor does it respect your ability to make the right decisions for yourself. If heroin or meth were legalized, how many people do you think would just go out and start doing it?
I think it's better left as a personal decision, which is more the essence of a democracy when it comes to these things. Whether a baby has the right to be born is something of a loaded question, just as I could ask you "doesn't a mother have the right to say what she can do with her own body?" I agree there are lots of factors at play. We can leave all the ifs/thans for another time.

Why do you think I was so round-a-bout when saying all that? I know it's a loaded question with no "real" answer. In fact I got into a debate with another member about that very issue. It didn't end well.

Amazing! I love it. XD

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're behind a cause then you're bound to think it requires action. I agree, I wouldn't say women are equal to men on every level yet, but I would argue that the cause is moving closer to it's goal rather than further. I cited that fact only to mark progress, which I hope is the case. Personally I think that progress is more the result of the tides of change than feminism activity, but I welcome it regardless. I hope you aren't insulted by that. I'm of the opinion that thinking of it as a good thing is more important than why you think it got that way.

I support your cause, don't hit me. :'(

Oh I know you meant it to show progress, and I agree. Women have come a long way, but there is still a way to go. Which is what I was saying. And what do you mean "tides of change" exactly? The National Organization for Women was founded in the 60s because the commissions and groups already in place by the gov weren't allowed to actually take action. And hey, women gained the right to vote because of groups like NAWSA and the National Women's Party. Members of the latter even picketed the White House and went on a hunger strike in prison (they were arrested for protesting). In order to prevent word getting out that was happening Congress was convinced to make the vote for women to...well vote.

And the second wave of feminism is credited to have been started by The Feminine Mystique being published. Oh sure, other actions like the Status of Women were happening around that time too, but the status thing didn't even offer any means of change. It just highlighted the problem. Change didn't really start to happen until later with nation wide demonstrations, NOW being formed, and such.

And now the third wave of feminism is trying for change as well. So see, feminism played a be role in getting mena nd women where they are today.

And don't worry, I don't hit people.

For the sake of starting up another topic of discussion I'm just going to post another comic. I'm not too convinced on the Afghan woman's opinion though. They do some pretty messed up stuff over there.

Oh my gosh! I love it. XD The Afghan woman makes a very valid point. What they do over there may be crazy to us. (Women burn themselves alive for example.) But imagine how weird we seem to them. We do live in a male-dominated culture where women are subtly kept in the inferior side. Buuuuut that's getting into the topic of gender.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Before we continue with that intellectual conversation...

On the subject of adoption, just briefly, I don't know if I could actually do that - give up a child for someone else to raise. Sure, I may not want it but I don't want anyone else to have it either. No idea really as to where that mentality comes from but it's kind of my gut reaction. Someone can psychoanalyze that one for me if they want

Someone in my family (whom I'd rather not name, for the sake of keeping her secret) who went through an abortion said the exact same thing when her mommy offered to raise the baby as an alternative to getting rid of it. She said 'but if I pass it on to you then I might as well take care of it myself'. Which I can only think meant that she didn't want to go through the pregnancy itself. I don't think less of her or judge her for doing what she did, because she wasn't in a good place either (a single mom in the process of separating her husband and early in a new relationship with her boyfriend - messy stuff), but I'm still very heart sore that she didn't tough it out. There is no greener grass on the other side, whichever route she would have taken, because green grass or dead grass doesn't change the fact that there are doggy poops on the yard.

As for my personal view on it - I did some research on adoption when I found out I'm expecting Seth. Every country is different, I think. Here in NZ, you get to pick the family, and you enter a contract beforehand on how involved you want to be with your child's life. The exception is that YOU cannot raise your child or control how they are raised, and it is up to the foster parents' discretion on whether the child will be informed that you are their biological parent or not (until they reach legal age, anyway). I was seriously considering adoption because my alternative was telling hubby to go f himself, taking myself and my unborn child away and trying to raise it by myself. But that would have meant that I'd be a single parent, and that I wouldn't have custody of my other two children, and it would have just been a major mess that could be avoided if baby wasn't in the picture. I am at a crossroads with it, though, because I lack trust in other people. I truly believe that I am the best carer for my children, with all my faults and flaws. No one will ever love them as much as I do. And you get some really nasty people out there who don't deserve to have children. But I'd rather know my child is alive (and get them out of a potentially harmful situation if they'd have the bad luck) and in the next country than abort. Wondering if they're okay and missing them and getting photos of what they look like or letters of what they've gotten up to without me is a better alternative to being in a more ideal place a few years later and looking back and thinking 'if I'd known things would improve for me, I wonder what it would have been like if I'd toughed it out', etc etc.

I understand that a lot of women see life as a burden, that there are so many things wrong in this world that there's no point exposing an innocent child to it. But you know what, life is never going to change. Life is not meant to be easy. In every rose garden there are a hundred thorns. That's nature, that's life. There is never a 'right' time or a 'good' time to become a mother. There is always war, famine, disease, crime, illness, poverty, abuse, recessions. These things have never changed and never will change. I never wanted children myself because I was petrified of what that meant: to be responsible for another life. My needs and wants become nothing, and that I guess is also partial reason why it took me so long to admit that I love my daughter. By avoiding bonding with her, it would hurt me less if I lost her. If she died, it wouldn't break me, because there would be no tie to break. I saw having kids as a burden because I was no longer looking out for number one, but for someone else, and if something happened to them it would come down on my head. The more you have, the more you have to lose.

My view on this has changed, although I still believe that the more you have, the more you have to lose. The difference is that I'd rather have had more than have had nothing. Life is how we experience the world. I've learnt that you can't protect your children from life, because life is what makes us who we are. All you can do is guide them the best you can on how to deal with life.

If I had had an abortion, I wouldn't have three kids right now, I wouldn't be struggling with my illness (or maybe I would!) I would not be where I am today. I probably would have had the life I always envisioned - lodging with my girlfriends in hotels as we travel the world together, devoting my life to my career as a writer, possibly becoming a freelance photographer (my photos ain't that bad ), and living the careless, free life of daily exercise, hopping planes and boats, indulging in new cultures, making new friends, possibly having a boyfriend (or two), and leaving my mark on the world. It sounds fantastic, and it fills me with a sense of longing for what I don't have. But the world has been there for millions of years, and the leaning tower of Piza and the fields of Italy and the snow in England and Disney World in Florida are things that will still be there 10 years from now. There is only one of me in this world, and there is only one of each of my children in this world. Having an abortion with the mindset that 'I'll have it later when I'm ready' is very foolish, because you will never have that baby. There was only one of them, and only that one. It can never be replaced. Abortion is irreversible. This is the reality, and most women who go on to later have another child when things are more convenient for them to do so, realise that no matter how many kids they have, no one will ever substitute for the one they didn't have.

As far as feminism goes, I don't call myself a feminist but I am a strong believer in equal rights. I'm doubly so because for some stupid reason, Afrikaner boys feel that it's appropriate to degrade and demoralise girls. I suppose it's due to our religion as Christians as well, whatnot with the man being the head of the household. But I don't believe God intended that to give guys the right to be d***s toward the female race. This is why I never got on with the boys in my own culture. I'm going to do the dishes and clean the house and take care of the kids all by myself while you sit on your arse after a 'hard' day at work and carry your meal and drink on after you? Sure, love, I'll add a double dose of rat poison to your meat while I'm at it. I'm very happy with my English man. Especially because we are on equal ground now. We're a team, so everything we do needs to contribute positively to our relationship and our life together. You do, I do, kind of thing.

If men can expect women to give their all, we can expect them to give their all, too. It's equality.

 

[Meg]

There is no greener grass on the other side, whichever route she would have taken, because green grass or dead grass doesn't change the fact that there are doggy poops on the yard.

Can I just say that is my new favorite quote?

And I want to *hugs* you again. @.@

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Can I just say that is my new favorite quote?

And I want to *hugs* you again. @.@

*hugs* I needz them ^^.

 

[Angel]

Just chucking this out there: you're never "ready" to have kids. Just "as ready as you'll ever be". If people actually sat down and drew up a plan for having kids like you would a business plan, I highly doubt anyone would ever bother to procreate at all. Say you have a kid for the average 18 years until they become and adult. You're looking at potentially well over a hundred thousand pounds/dollars/iced buns just to keep them in clothing and food. Then there's the various extracurricular activities they might get involved in, pocket money, financing their education, getting them out of various scrapes which invariably involve money plus the extra costs for when they leave full time education and STILL live in your home without a job. And all this is assuming you have no emotional connection to the child in question - the cost of that is impossible to price.

So if anyone says to you "I'm waiting until I'm completely ready", they are kind of talking nonsense because you cannot prepare for an unknown event entirely. Sure, you can go to the appropriate classes, attend all your antenatal appointments and read all the books (and there are hundreds of them out there, mostly fit for burning and nothing more). You can even change your entire lifestyle in preparation for the new arrival. But that's about as far as it goes. You literally learn on the job and you make more mistakes than you care to recall, especially with the first one.

Financially? Yeah, it would be great if you had the savings in place to fall back on but most people in the current economic climate especially cannot save for anything more costly than a stamp and are having to live in the moment more often than not because financial planning is for those with plenty of money, i.e. the lucky few. Even if you do have savings, you'll have almost certainly underestimated how much your kid will cost you. What if they get sick? What if they have particular needs? What if you lose your job and can't afford anything anymore? Lots of what-ifs, but that is the stuff of life and you have to roll with the punches. Where kids are concerned, prepare yourself for more than your fair share of bruises

My first kid was born in poverty (first world poverty, that is, before someone starts banging on about Ethiopians or whatever). I fed my family (God knows how) on less than £25 per month for nearly 5 years until I met Steve and got married. Financially I'm better off now because I have a husband earning money and a home we own. But the bills don't stop and neither do the needs of the children. Jake, my middle child, has certain requirements which take up a lot of our time and money - so much so that the other kids barely get a look-in sometimes. Josh, the baby, is very sick right now which means lots of hospital visits via public transport to the nearest Paediatric Hospital which adds up to nearly £500 in transport costs alone each year. Doesn't sound like much, right? Then take into account we have a family income of significantly less than the minimum wage earners of our country - I won't say how much but put it this way: if we didn't own our home outright, we wouldn't have one. We can't even afford a car - something considered an essential these days for a single person, let alone a family of 5.

tl;dr - you can never be fully ready, the "raising kids" books are all crap so don't read them and organic rice cakes taste just as nasty as the cheaper, non-organic ones so don't be sucked into the lie

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Couldn't afford to keep a child, let alone a car....

I think what a woman does with her body is her own business. I've always thought of adopting, because i have taken into account my own medical problems and how it may effect my child. Believe me, i've thought alot about it.

Some i know had an abortion but her circumstances were very complicated and she felt that she had no other choice.
(I'm not going into detail.)

 

[V]

I don't think anybody being pro-life is a problem, unless they become violent vigilantes, or if it becomes the law of that country. Then you get women for different reasons unable to get abortions (and they still will) going for "back alley" abortions and getting "coathanger" procedures... or worse, dying because of these operations or killing/abandoning their own babies once they're born. People can be that desperate.

I met a few women from Eire while I was at a clinic, and it was the first time I realised Eire didn't allow abortions and these women had to travel to Liverpool for their operations. Which they were able to do in a fairly rich country like the United Kingdom or Ireland, but heaven knows what they might have done in a country that didn't allow it and couldn't afford it. While abortion is still infanticide, it's definitely better that you abort a few days old clump of cells that hasn't formed a nervous system properly yet in a proper hospital, than rip out a nearly full-grown baby that can feel, or kill a born child.

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

I don't think anybody being pro-life is a problem, unless they become violent vigilantes, or if it becomes the law of that country. Then you get women for different reasons unable to get abortions (and they still will) going for "back alley" abortions and getting "coathanger" procedures... or worse, dying because of these operations or killing/abandoning their own babies once they're born. People can be that desperate.

I met a few women from Eire while I was at a clinic, and it was the first time I realised Eire didn't allow abortions and these women had to travel to Liverpool for their operations. Which they were able to do in a fairly rich country like the United Kingdom or Ireland, but heaven knows what they might have done in a country that didn't allow it and couldn't afford it. While abortion is still infanticide, it's definitely better that you abort a few days old clump of cells that hasn't formed a nervous system properly yet in a proper hospital, than rip out a nearly full-grown baby that can feel, or kill a born child.

I assume that they don't have abortion clinics in Eire because its against their religion? (and it's probably illegal)

 

[V]

Definitely against the Catholic religion, yea. Catholicism has a much bigger influence there than here, even in their laws and social policies.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

I don't think anybody being pro-life is a problem, unless they become violent vigilantes, or if it becomes the law of that country. Then you get women for different reasons unable to get abortions (and they still will) going for "back alley" abortions and getting "coathanger" procedures... or worse, dying because of these operations or killing/abandoning their own babies once they're born. People can be that desperate.

On the slightly off topic of abandonment: I used to keep an eye out for any obscure wrappings of cloth in the middle or alongside the streets, always checked out bundles of plastic bags as well whenever I went biking through the fields, and checked for the source whenever I heard a baby's cry, back when I was a teenager. The black people quite often dumped their babies in deserted areas or sometimes just chucked them in the road. Most often they'll leave them in the public toilets, though. You'd hear about these stories so often that it had turned from the initial shock and horror that a mother would do something like that to 'oh, another one was found' kind of mentality. I always wanted to be one of those people who just 'happen' upon an abandoned baby. Not for the news headlines (not that there would be any because as I said, it's small every-day news in South Africa) or to be labelled a heroine for saving this tiny being, I simply wanted to help the innocent and give them the love that they deserve. I was very broody and all about babies when I was a teen. But I'm still in that mentality every time we go back home to visit. I never drive over any brown package or lump of cloth in the road, and I'd rather pull over and quickly dart out to check what it is, than in my ignorance and selfishness run it over or leave it behind. And when I say dart, I mean like actually really bolt like the devil himself is chasing me. You don't stop and get out of your car on any street if you're not going to be fast because you don't know who might be waiting to ambush you.

/back to the topic