• Welcome to the Devil May Cry Community Forum!

    We're a group of fans who are passionate about the Devil May Cry series and video gaming.

    Register Log in

Should There Be More "Pure Human" Characters?

Goldsickle

Well-known Member
As far as I remember, Lady is not only the only "pure human" boss but also became a "pure human" playable character.

You think Devil May Cry should include more humans with absolutely no demonic or magic energy?
 

Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
This is the "DBZ Problem" as I call it. Basically, the issue with having only "Pure Human" characters is that they can rarely keep up due to not having the same "special something" that the non-humans have. I've said this before but I really would've liked to see Credo and the Order members fight demons before they went through Ascension and became the same Non-humans that they fought.

DmC got around this by having Kat be both the brains of the group as well as having magic. But it playing this concept straight can lead to interesting plot lines, like having a human struggling to keep up with Dante and so turning to more dangerous methods to become stronger.
 

Viper

Well-known Member
Premium
As a game that is about protecting humanity, DMC could definitely use more activity from said humanity, otherwise it looks really silly that demons rear their ugly heads every now and then, yet humans remain forever ignorant and passive sans one tight-knit community and one woman for whom it was personal. Sparda might have brought them enough peace for them to live relaxed, but at least anime is proof they ain't exactly idiots about it.
At least lower level demons can be fought by a human with enough training, so there should be some mercenaries running around, which can story-wise be back-up, while gameplay-wise they can be unlockable characters, bit modified to keep up, something like Lady in DMC4SE.
 

NessPSI

Tony Redgraaaave!
I would absolutely love for a character to show up and totally wipe the floor with Dante or Nero, only to suddenly find that he/she's human(maybe using magic or alchemy of some kind). But i know that's further away than a dream... DMC seems to shine best when there's a good rival material character for its protagonist though.
 

Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
As much as I love the ideas in the above two posts, sadly there isn't any confirmed method for humans to become stronger outside of transforming into partial or whole demons.

I too would love a rival character who challenges the Protagonist without being another hybrid. The only way I can think of is having a OPM style character whereby a human dedicating their life to training/martial arts manages to exceed the limits of a normal human.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
This series doesn't need more human characters to balance out all the super-powered half-demon characters. It just needs the half-demon characters to be written like humans, and not one-dimensional anime stereotypes with all the slow and intricate development of a Ubisoft game.

Not having enough characters has never been Devil May Cry's issue. It's making proper use of the characters that already THERE. When a story has this many characters, and the plot still feels barren, empty, and without stakes or consequence....there's only poor and amateurish writing to blame.

Contrast that with games like Alan Wake, where the number of characters is extremely low, and the plot still feels massive and gripping because of how intricately-written and fleshed out the few characters they DO HAVE actually are.

Quantity of characters and varying of those characters' race/species does not make up for writing deficiencies. Just ask the narrative trainwreck that was Mass Effect 3.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
with all the slow and intricate development of a Ubisoft game.
hqdefault.jpg


Well... maybe you should play SMT3 and see how well Dante (and other demons) are written there.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I just wanna know your opinion of it.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
Contrast that with games like Alan Wake, where the number of characters is extremely low, and the plot still feels massive and gripping because of how intricately-written and fleshed out the few characters they DO HAVE actually are.
Alan Wake has more characters than practically the entire Devil May Cry franchise put together.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Alan Wake has more characters than practically the entire Devil May Cry franchise put together.
Sorry, I meant to say Silent Hill 2. I've been playing both recently. But it works for Alan Wake as well, since most of the other characters take a far less active role in the story than Alan and a few other central characters...whereas in DMC, there are far more characters taking center stage and actively affecting the story to a large degree, but aren't compelling or well-written enough to make their presence or absence significance.

Just look at DMC4, which had the largest central character cast in any game of the series. As much as I like that game, I'm not going to pretend any of the newly-introduced characters, or even a few of the series' veterans, made that game's story feel "expansive or relevant" to the series, because of how barebones and superficial the writing made them feel.

....whereas even the most minor NPC or background character in Silent Hill or Alan Wake, completely devoid of the superpowers or hyperstylized design of the DMC cast, feel a thousand times more real and convincing, so that if it was just that character and a few others as opposed to the large number it may have (in the case of Alan Wake, not so much SH2), the story would still feel huge and consequential.

Well... maybe you should play SMT3 and see how well Dante (and other demons) are written there.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I just wanna know your opinion of it.

I'm not familiar with any of the SMT or Persona games, but knowing the quality Atlus tends to inject in writing their characters (Catherine very much excluded), I would presume he's much better written or portrayed there than DMC2, or any actual DMC game, potentially.

There's something sad and ironic about that.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
Sorry, I meant to say Silent Hill 2.
Silent Hill 2 also has more characters than any Devil May Cry game. It's about tied with 4, but in SH they do much more with each one over a much longer period of time.

But it works for Alan Wake as well, since most of the other characters take a far less active role in the story than Alan and a few other central characters...whereas in DMC, there are far more characters taking center stage and actively affecting the story to a large degree, but aren't compelling or well-written enough to make their presence or absence significance.
Even with a generous interpretation, Alan Wake has twice over as many major characters as DMC4, and again nearly all of them get more screen time than the DMC cast. I mean, just compare the amount of screen time taken up by Sarah as compared to Lady, or even Alice to Kyrie. You can call that a failing of DMC if you like, but the two games are so drastically different in focus, structure, and especially length that I don't think it's really a valid comparison.

....whereas even the most minor NPC or background character in Silent Hill or Alan Wake, completely devoid of the superpowers or hyperstylized design of the DMC cast, feel a thousand times more real and convincing, so that if it was just that character and a few others as opposed to the large number it may have (in the case of Alan Wake, not so much SH2), the story would still feel huge and consequential.
Naturally when the stakes are magnified, something taking place on a small scale can feel just as important as something taking place on a large scale. But moreover, AW and SH are effectively normal universes with some supernatural elements that exist, narratively, to serve as a tool for exploring characters, while DMC is much more directly fantastic. Even if the characters in SH and AW were badly written, they'd feel more realistic than DMC's characters, because DMC is much more inherently outside the bounds of realism.

Edit: It occurs to me that I haven't actually responded to the OP.

I'm vaguely of two minds on the idea of more human characters. On the one hand I do think that they should be brought in, but only if the context of the game fits. 1, 2, 3 and 4 have all been games that have taken place over a short period of time, in one specific locale, during a sort of crisis.

In that sort of setting I don't think more human characters would be very appropriate as being met multiple times along the journey unless they were a major character like Lady in 3, which would require a lot more story involvement. However I do think you could meet singular humans or groups of humans along the way - Imagine, for instance, if instead of the bar you entered at the beginning of DMC3 being deserted, a number of survivors were hold up inside. From there you could get some dialog from them and learn a bit more about the situation before moving on. And of course, when you came back later in the game, the situation could have changed in some way.

Now, if we're talking human characters that you have more consistent interactions with, the only thing that I think would really justify that is a game that focuses more on the day-to-day deal of running the Devil May Cry business. You could have it as a sort of hub from which you accept jobs proposed by customers, customize weapons and outfits, interact with people coming in and out. Maybe instead of just Devil May Cry there could also be other places, like weapon shops, maybe even a whole section of the city you could run around in, that act as other hubs to interact with more people. In that case, I think there would be much more justification for consistently interacting with normal humans, both on and off of missions.

I'd like a Devil May Cry game that was more long-form like that, taking place over weeks, months, and even years rather than being a single event, and I think it would fit with what the OP describes fairly well.
 
Last edited:

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
i think getting to see how regular humans deal with the demonic would be interesting.

Whether it ordinary peeps, other human hunters or even the government would be cool
 

Viper

Well-known Member
Premium
More "pure human" characters would be nice, but I thing the franchise really NEEDS it.

It would be cool if Morison and an adult Patty were to appear in DMC5. With Morrison giving Dante side quests and Patty being a comic relief character that occasionally visits Dante's shop and makes him strawberry sundaes.
I think you meant eats his strawberry sundaes. XD
He's got Fredi to make them and Cindy to serve, but I don't know how those two could be incorporated into a game except maybe as NPCs at the diner, serving rumors alongside dessert as Dante does some investigations.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Silent Hill 2 also has more characters than any Devil May Cry game. It's about tied with 4, but in SH they do much more with each one over a much longer period of time.
Exactly. As I mentioned, the one game in DMC that actually had a multitude of characters was 4, and even with that wealth of narrative sways the writers could've taken with those, the same way a game with similar-sized cast like Silent Hill would, they didn't really opt to do anything with them. Most of the new characters introduced in DMC4 were very much disposable objects to the plot, and their introduction and removal didn't do a whole lot for the narrative in terms of giving it weight or investment from the player.

The main point I was making is that even if you have a small number of characters, like SH2 does, you can still write them well enough so that it feels like you have a larger and more substantial collection of characters in the story, even if you really only have seven or eight.

It's not the quantity I'm emphasizing, but the quality. DMC4 could have MORE characters than all the Silent Hill games combined, but with its quality of writing, would still feel scarce and barren because of inconsequential and meaningless they are.

Even with a generous interpretation, Alan Wake has twice over as many major characters as DMC4, and again nearly all of them get more screen time than the DMC cast. I mean, just compare the amount of screen time taken up by Sarah as compared to Lady, or even Alice to Kyrie. You can call that a failing of DMC if you like, but the two games are so drastically different in focus, structure, and especially length that I don't think it's really a valid comparison.

Naturally when the stakes are magnified, something taking place on a small scale can feel just as important as something taking place on a large scale. But moreover, AW and SH are effectively normal universes with some supernatural elements that exist, narratively, to serve as a tool for exploring characters, while DMC is much more directly fantastic. Even if the characters in SH and AW were badly written, they'd feel more realistic than DMC's characters, because DMC is much more inherently outside the bounds of realism.

Then maybe that's a call for the DMC series' cutscenes to shift the priority from having high-octane, choreographed action sequences to actual interactions or developmental moments for the characters.

DMC4 also had the disadvantage of having a botched developmental cycle, so it probably didn't retain the screentime for each of its characters that it might've intended in the first place, so I'm at least willing to forgive that game.

But the idea that because DMC4, or really any other game in the series is too different of a genre to invite any kind of comparison isn't all that relevant when you consider that Silent Hill 2 as a game provided more character interaction with its supporting cast than other horror games of its time. The genre and focus isn't of consequence, it's all about execution. The original Resident Evil games were at the height of their popularity just prior to SH2's release, and most of the story and character interactions were quite sparse in comparison. Again, as you said, you could fault that with a difference in focus and structure...but maybe that opens the discussion of what DMC's focus and structure of its story really should be. Other hack-n'-slash games like Lords of Shadow, Legacy of Kain, and even Darksiders manage to structure their stories far better than DMC can, and they BELONG in the same genre. You rightfully claim that the stakes in DMC are lowered significantly because of the superpowered and far-fetched nature of its universe, but a lot of that applies to other hyper-stylized action games in the same genre, that still manage to outpace DMC in terms of characters and story, purely by better-executed writing.

Are the focus and structure different in DMC? Absolutely. But whether or not that's a creative decision or a failing doesn't change how the characters themselves in DMC, arguably the crux of series' overall narrative (since lore and plot intricacy are apparently something Capcom's writers aren't ever intent on truly exploring within these games), are lacking in interaction and development to make the stakes of their role in each game relevant in any fashion at all. Other games in the same genre are managing to do it better, and when DMC fans that are far less critical or harsh about the series than I am are vocalizing on other threads about how much they want the story and the characters to improve, you can't really call this a problem unique explicitly to me.

Perhaps that sense of lacking in the central characters is precisely why so many fans are so willing to urge Capcom to introduce new characters or new writing talent.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
@WolfOD64

I actually have sort of an "idea" where "DeVil May Cry" would take a lot of "inspiration" from RE7.

Just the opening scene though -- I wanted to hear your thoughts on it (in PM or on my profile).

It's so obvious however, you could probably even guess how it would play out...
 

Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
Moving back on topic.

An advantage a human might have over regular demons is their intelligence and use of technology. After all, you don't need to use brute force to win a fight and since Lady uses regular firearms to fight demons, it wouldn't be implausible to have a sidekick character help Dante using gadgets and the like.

Now I've got Child Emperor and his backpack of endless gadgets stuck in my mind. :tongue:
b03694be591f506b41806a2dfbe865c3.jpg
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
An advantage a human might have over regular demons is their intelligence and use of technology. After all, you don't need to use brute force to win a fight and since Lady uses regular firearms to fight demons, it wouldn't be implausible to have a sidekick character help Dante using gadgets and the like.
I've always liked the idea of having a grizzled human character like Morrison--or alternatively, Julius Belmont of the Castlevania--series, who triumphed over demons through wit and experience through hunting rather than having superpowers. Someone who projects a very Van Helsing type of aura about him, who uses his experience as a hunter of men to make him better suited

However, making a character who specializes in tech might be a bit strange, since DMC's seemingly-committed reluctance to establish how the demons in the series' mythos work, and just how much of an effect technology really has on them. I also doubt the creators' emphasis on restricting DMC's technology to its "80's/90/s" sensibility with having old-fashioned tech like dial-phones, jukeboxes, revolvers and old-fashioned TV's would allow a whole lot of freedom in terms of allowing tech to play a major role in a DMC game.

Now, having someone who specializes in designing and producing firearms? We had that in the DMC1 novel, in the form of Luca, and it worked well. Reintroducing a canon aspect like that in a future game would definitely work, since firearms gave been a crucial aspect of Devil May Cry since the very first game.

You can never have too many gun experts in this series.:D
 

Goldsickle

Well-known Member
The only reason Dante was able to defeat Shadows and Sins is because their bodies aren't accustomed to guns (although you can defeat Sins without guns but it's easier with them).

Just shows that technology can trump over demonic powers.

But who knows, there's probably some sort of back story where demons invented guns first or something, like how the Irenic in Bayonetta is said to inspire cars and DMC3 does not make it clear whether human chess came first or if it was inspired by the Damned Chessmen.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
Exactly. As I mentioned, the one game in DMC that actually had a multitude of characters was 4, and even with that wealth of narrative sways the writers could've taken with those, the same way a game with similar-sized cast like Silent Hill would, they didn't really opt to do anything with them.
I've said this before and I'll say it again - In terms of options, they did not have any. Considering all the circumstances surrounding 4's development and the drastic differences in genre and once more length between the two games, it is not reasonable to hold up the characters of Silent Hill against DMC4 and suggest that DMC follow that sort of characterization.

The main point I was making is that even if you have a small number of characters, like SH2 does, you can still write them well enough so that it feels like you have a larger and more substantial collection of characters in the story, even if you really only have seven or eight.

It's not the quantity I'm emphasizing, but the quality.
But the quantity of time devoted to the characters is what creates that quality. The DMC series' priorities are in other fields, and they do what they can with characterization in different ways, without the main focus being on that like in SH.

Then maybe that's a call for the DMC series' cutscenes to shift the priority from having high-octane, choreographed action sequences to actual interactions or developmental moments for the characters.
I completely disagree with both of those assertions.

The genre and focus isn't of consequence, it's all about execution.
The genre and focus are of consequence, but yes it is a matter of execution. And if you look back at the entirety of the Silent Hill series, almost every single installment after 3 flubs the execution badly. Even then, 2 is the only one that achieved such major status.

You rightfully claim that the stakes in DMC are lowered significantly because of the superpowered and far-fetched nature of its universe,
That wasn't my claim. My claim was that stakes which are very personal can come off as immensely important, even if the scale is small. DMC, however, often has both macro-stakes and micro-sakes - Part of the narrative is a world-ending threat, and the other part is something personal like some kind of family conflict or a love interest.

Other games in the same genre are managing to do it better, and when DMC fans that are far less critical or harsh about the series than I am are vocalizing on other threads about how much they want the story and the characters to improve, you can't really call this a problem unique explicitly to me.
The writing quality of said other games is arguable, as we have previously. But have you considered that the overarching character and narrative issues in DMC may not be because of a direct failing of the writing, but instead because every single game in the series was a developmental mess?

Really, consider it for a moment. DMC1 was a Frankenstein scraped together from an early iteration of RE4. DMC2 wasn't even supposed to be a DMC game, and was practically an abortion from word one. DMC3 probably had the cleanest development cycle, but it was still coming off of DMC2's failure, and was practically a second launch of the series both in terms of the gameplay and story, hence being a prequel. 4 had the extreme misfortune of being created for the beginning of a new console generation, and swathes of content, both levels and plot, had to be dropped on the cutting room floor. Even DmC had numerous development problems, and despite a much stronger emphasis on the plot being intended from the outset, the final result is all over the place and comes off as an identity crisis.

The entire series has never had a smooth dev cycle for any of the games. It's absurd, but despite being over fifteen years old, the DMC series has never been in a position for one of it's titles to reach it's full potential.
 
Top Bottom