• Welcome to the Devil May Cry Community Forum!

    We're a group of fans who are passionate about the Devil May Cry series and video gaming.

    Register Log in

Why Metal gear Rising can't possibly be DMC5 (Or in place for DmC)

CheeseKao

Lord Cheesington
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
1,206
Reaction score
729
Points
1,165
So we are already at the point when you people stoop low enough to just outright lie. 'tis cool, 'tis cool.

Oh, and thanks for the laugh. "MGS4's well crafted and intricate storyline" is pretty funny. And I say it as someone who liked MGS4.



I, too, am shocked by people paying attention to context and execution.
How do you expect people to take your post seriously if you can't even be bothered to substantiate your claims?
 

HatredIsJoy

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
94
Reaction score
42
Points
110
If someone will come into this thread and say that DmC sucks because it's 2 hours long, has only one weapon and is brown like the endless "realistic" military shooters, people will be perfectly justified in calling this person a liar without "substantiating their claims". Why can't I do the same?
 

CheeseKao

Lord Cheesington
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
1,206
Reaction score
729
Points
1,165
If someone will come into this thread and say that DmC sucks because it's 2 hours long, has only one weapon and is brown like the endless "realistic" military shooters, people will be perfectly justified in calling this person a liar without "substantiating their claims". Why can't I do the same?
Company A illegally supplies deadly weapons to a small local gang. Company B illegaly supplies deadly weapons to an entire country. Company B will suffer a more severe punishment than Company A punishment if caught.
Guy A steals one dollar. Guy B steals a million dollars. Guy B will suffer a more severe punishment than Guy A if caught.

Why doesn't group A get the same punishment as group B despite group A doing the exact things as group B? It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out.

Case 1
"DmC sucks because it's 2 hours long, has only one weapon and is brown like the endless "realistic" military shooters"


Case 2
"Aside from the fact that MGR:
  • Contain's uninspired bosses which are basically the Beasts from MGS4
  • Portrays Raiden as a psychotic ninja when Kojima originally wanted him to be a stealth hunter who used stealth more than brute force
  • Portrays Raiden as "Jack the Ripper" only to be edgy and "original," when he was supposed to give up fighting
  • Has little no actual combo tech ie. fighting game mechanics"
There's a disparity between the two. One is a lie that can be easily debunked with a few google searches. In case 2, some of his points are just his opinions and while the possibility that some of his points are factually incorrect is there, one would require to do some proper research to refute his claims.

I can search "How long is DmC?", "How many weapons are in DmC?", "What genre is DmC?", "DmC environments" and get answers easily.
I can't search " Are MGR bosses are similar to the beasts from MGS4?", "Did Kojima want Raiden to be a stealth hunter who used stealth more than brute force", "Is Raiden supposed to give up fighting?" and get clear cut answers.

Things may be made from the same material but they don't necessarily weigh the same.
 

crush

Well-known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
885
Reaction score
671
Points
725
Age
29
Erm..."Contain's uninspired bosses which are basically the Beasts from MGS4 "
The whole theme is being a cyborg or not! They need to be cyborgs from the start!
Also I found sundowner quite fun as a boss. Slicing open his shield and all.
I actually uses his weapon the most. Sissors are very unique.
 

Meier

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
55
Reaction score
53
Points
210
Age
37
Finished MGR tonight. Gotta say that while good, it just isn't metal gear. I'm a big metal gear and DMC fanboy, but I'll admit right off the bat that I worked on both DMC HD collection and DmC so I might have some bias, but I'm honestly trying not to be favorable here. Despite the outrage from MGS2 I really liked Raiden as a character, although I was put off from that game for years because I wanted Snake to make a bigger return.

What I feel about MGR though is that Raiden doesn't sound or act like how he used to, and instead sounds like he's doing a bad Snake/batman impression, but only occasionally. He denigrates as a character rather than grow (becoming more of a killer robot and agreeing with his antagonist while betraying his original principles). Raiden seemed smarter and more aware of world states in MGS2 than he did in this title. The last boss is deus ex machina and one of the most ridiculous villains ever conceived (such as the I played football craziness). Like a poster said before, the codex are more of a chore than a joy. I just didn't care about boobs mcgee, wolf robot, nameless doctor, or Kevin and Boris.

It seemed like they wanted to incorporate some metal gear aspects into the game, but it didn't quite get there. Like before Raiden gets his DT equivalent, that seemed like a good point for some psycho mantis type action that was against conventions, but instead it was just a cutscene. The sneaking aspect is cool, but you don't get rewarded for it the way the game is set up. You don't get ranks for sneaking around (I might be mistaken here, but it doesn't bring up the combat progress prompt, although the end of the mission might still give you S if you sneak successfully. I just haven't looked into too deeply yet.) What would be cool is if instead of a combat rating you got a different sneak rating. That would have made the work on two separate levels competively. Ah well, maybe a sequel can have this.

My main gripe about they hypocracy in fan expectation though, is how MGR is a major offender of the criticism DmC got, yet it gets some magic pass. The final boss alone drops more F bombs in one cutscene than Dante does in all of DmC. DmC was panned for "emo" Dante, when MGR actually has emo music in it.

But it extends further than that. NG3 got a bad rap too, but is extremely similar to MGR in execution. They are both dial-a-combo gameplay with punishing enemies and high damages. They both have ridiculous over the top action sequences full of QTEs and streamlined platforming. The stories are also strikingly similar with the protagonist facing a dilema of being too much of a killer while his antagonist taunts him about it.

Again, I liked all, NG3, DmC, and MGR very much. I'm still playing through Razor's edge, yet suffering from those damn grabby enemies.

All that withstanding, MGR is still a fun game that requires quite a bit of skill to master and offers plenty of replayability. The collectibles are cleverly hidden, the VR is a great addicting thing to master, and the style in game is hard to obtain. Its a great game for sure, but as I said earlier, it hardly has that metal gear vibe to it. Maybe if Raiden repeated all the dialog delivered to him as a question it would feel more like home. "Metal Gear?" "A cardboard box?" "Nanomachines"
 

HatredIsJoy

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
94
Reaction score
42
Points
110
It's really not that hard to find information about any of those, but I have to admit that it'll take more effort than finding out if DmC is really 2 hours long so I'll give you that one.

Alrighty, here it goes:

  • Contain's uninspired bosses which are basically the Beasts from MGS4
Bullshit. The bosses have literally nothing to do with the B&B unit. like, I can't even write a proper reply 'cause I can't even imagine the premise of his claim. They're nothing alike.

  • Portrays Raiden as a psychotic ninja when Kojima originally wanted him to be a stealth hunter who used stealth more than brute force

Bullshit. Look at Raiden in MGS4, Kojima pretty obviously wanted him to be a cool robot ninja that cuts **** up. He literally said that he wanted the players to look at Raiden in cutscenes and want to be able to do the same. And he loves MGR and wants Platinum to make a sequel, so yeah. Original intention wasn't working out as a good game and Kojima is perfectly fine with what Platinum made.
  • Portrays Raiden as "Jack the Ripper" only to be edgy and "original," when he was supposed to give up fighting
Bullshit. You have to ignore almost everything about Raiden in MGS 2 and 4 to think like that. \

Firstly, he can't give up fighting. Full cyborgs like him are pretty much limited to military jobs because people are prejudiced against them. It is explicitly stated that even human-looking bodies like the one that he had at the end of MGR4 are still not realistic enough to pass as a normal person. Plus a regular job just doesn't pays enough to afford the expensive maintenance that his body requires. That's why ended up joining Maverick.

Secondly, he's a broken person that had a horribly traumatic childhood and was used as a supersoldier guinea pig by the government. Something like that doesn't just goes away. The big part of his character arc in MGR is that Raiden has to accept that Jack the Ripper is a permanent and important part of his psyche. He is a ****ed up killer, but he has a good sense of right and wrong and is ready to sacrifice his life to protect the weak and prevent people like Armstrong from creating more Jacks. Calling him "edgy" is, well, very stupid.

  • Has little no actual combo tech ie. fighting game mechanics"
It has a perfectly fine move list, it has combos, and it has mechanics for stringing combos together and avoiding interruption from enemies (Blade Mode Cancelling and Dodge Offset).

I'm done. Are you happy now? :/
 

crush

Well-known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
885
Reaction score
671
Points
725
Age
29

I must agree with the last boss. It's outrageous. And I simply...how can I put it? Not motivated.
I know that the metal gear series will give out long sessions of "How is the war." but well...it was starting to make me bored while in the middle of a bossfight. I think it's the worst thing a cutscene could do to gameplay. And to make it worse, he is simply just a asshat who wants war. Which makes you wonder, what was the need of that 5 min lecture?
Also he exploits the horrible camera. And uses football tactics against a well-skilled warrior.
There might be a theme here...but who cares about a character that only came out in the last moments of the game?
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
846
Reaction score
-2
Points
42
I must agree with the last boss. It's outrageous. And I simply...how can I put it? Not motivated.
I know that the metal gear series will give out long sessions of "How is the war." but well...it was starting to make me bored while in the middle of a bossfight. I think it's the worst thing a cutscene could do to gameplay.
And to make it worse, he is simply just a asshat who wants war. What was the need of that 5 min lecture?

I thought it was fun and over the top, easily the best part of Rising. If not the one thing that made the game for me. "Nanomachines, Son!" *Crowd cheering when Senator kicks Raiden like a football* I anticipate a Rising 2, but for now I've got Ground Zeroes to look forward too.
 

crush

Well-known Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
885
Reaction score
671
Points
725
Age
29
I thought it was fun and over the top, easily the best part of Rising. If not the one thing that made the game for me.

Well I think they didn't need to make you run away from him two times in the middle of a fight.
It sorta makes me lose the hype I got from the fight with the metal- gear before the last boss with the long cut-scenes.
 

Meier

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
55
Reaction score
53
Points
210
Age
37
It was definitely funny, but metal gear usually takes a smart approach to war politics and critique. This guy instead just hulks out and throws F bombs at generic things people are upset about. "F the media, f the war, f society." I was just like... alright Ron Paul, enough already. I guess Snake had a better grasp on his world than Raiden does, but back to my first post in this thread, I think that back in MGS2 Raiden was much smarter than he was portrayed now.
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
846
Reaction score
-2
Points
42
Well I think they didn't need to make you run away from him two times in the middle of a fight.
It sorta makes me lose the hype I got from the fight with the metal- gear before the last boss with the long cut-scenes.

Well, yeah I guess. Could have been executed better and it's a bit of a pace breaker. I just liked the cutscene.
 

Meier

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
55
Reaction score
53
Points
210
Age
37
One thing about that last boss though is he is pretty tricky to best. They did a great job of giving the player a sense of danger and urgency fighting him. I wish Mundus turned out more threatening to be honest, but hey at least in bloody palace he can one shot kill you on floor 100 bwahaha. :devil:
 

Meier

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
55
Reaction score
53
Points
210
Age
37
Try going back and grinding a little on some earlier chapters to get all your skills. Monsoon can be a pain, but you just have to be ready to parry. You don't have to dodge at all really. Just get used to keeping the lock target on him (hit R2 inbetween phases).
 

HatredIsJoy

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
94
Reaction score
42
Points
110
I wanted Snake to make a bigger return.

Please God no. Just let the guy rest already. His story is finished, why can't he just live out his last days with Sunny and Otacon and die peacefully? The world moved on and Snake is old, tired and obsolete, that's one of the points of MGS4 ending.

What I feel about MGR though is that Raiden doesn't sound or act like how he used to, and instead sounds like he's doing a bad Snake/batman impression, but only occasionally. He denigrates as a character rather than grow (becoming more of a killer robot and agreeing with his antagonist while betraying his original principles).

That's adressed in my reply to CheeseKao

Raiden seemed smarter and more aware of world states in MGS2 than he did in this title. The last boss is deus ex machina and one of the most ridiculous villains ever conceived (such as the I played football craziness). Like a poster said before, the codex are more of a chore than a joy. I just didn't care about boobs mcgee, wolf robot, nameless doctor, or Kevin and Boris.

He spent entire MGS2 being a puppet of the Patriots. I don't think that you understand what "Deus Ex Machina" means.

It seemed like they wanted to incorporate some metal gear aspects into the game, but it didn't quite get there. Like before Raiden gets his DT equivalent, that seemed like a good point for some psycho mantis type action that was against conventions, but instead it was just a cutscene. The sneaking aspect is cool, but you don't get rewarded for it the way the game is set up. You don't get ranks for sneaking around (I might be mistaken here, but it doesn't bring up the combat progress prompt, although the end of the mission might still give you S if you sneak successfully. I just haven't looked into too deeply yet.) What would be cool is if instead of a combat rating you got a different sneak rating. That would have made the work on two separate levels competively. Ah well, maybe a sequel can have this.

It'd be cool, but it's really not what this game is supposed to be about. Don't worry, we'll get to do all the sneaking we want in Ground Zeroes :)

My main gripe about they hypocracy in fan expectation though, is how MGR is a major offender of the criticism DmC got, yet it gets some magic pass. The final boss alone drops more F bombs in one cutscene than Dante does in all of DmC. DmC was panned for "emo" Dante, when MGR actually has emo music in it.

Magic pass? Really? Armstrong is a villain, and was agry and ranting about everything that made him hate the current state of America enough to try to destroy and rebuild it. Saying "****" is perfectly fitting in that context because it helps to properly demonstrate his emotional state. DmC's **** YOU NO **** YOU is pointless and only exists to have swearing in the game. Also, you don't know what emo music is. [EDIT] Also he's a satire of MGS villains and American politics.

But it extends further than that. NG3 got a bad rap too, but is extremely similar to MGR in execution. They are both dial-a-combo gameplay with punishing enemies and high damages. They both have ridiculous over the top action sequences full of QTEs and streamlined platforming. The stories are also strikingly similar with the protagonist facing a dilema of being too much of a killer while his antagonist taunts him about it.

Again, I liked all, NG3, DmC, and MGR very much. I'm still playing through Razor's edge, yet suffering from those damn grabby enemies.


Don't know anything about NG3, so nothing to say here


All that withstanding, MGR is still a fun game that requires quite a bit of skill to master and offers plenty of replayability. The collectibles are cleverly hidden, the VR is a great addicting thing to master, and the style in game is hard to obtain. Its a great game for sure, but as I said earlier, it hardly has that metal gear vibe to it. Maybe if Raiden repeated all the dialog delivered to him as a question it would feel more like home. "Metal Gear?" "A cardboard box?" "Nanomachines"

We have "A cardboard box?" and "Nanomachines, son!", maybe that counts :p

I am tired and frustrated due to work-related reasons, I hope that this post doesn't comes off as antagonistic.
 

CheeseKao

Lord Cheesington
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
1,206
Reaction score
729
Points
1,165
It's really not that hard to find information about any of those, but I have to admit that it'll take more effort than finding out if DmC is really 2 hours long so I'll give you that one.

Alrighty, here it goes:

  • Contain's uninspired bosses which are basically the Beasts from MGS4
Bullshit. The bosses have literally nothing to do with the B&B unit. like, I can't even write a proper reply 'cause I can't even imagine the premise of his claim. They're nothing alike.

  • Portrays Raiden as a psychotic ninja when Kojima originally wanted him to be a stealth hunter who used stealth more than brute force

Bullshit. Look at Raiden in MGS4, Kojima pretty obviously wanted him to be a cool robot ninja that cuts **** up. He literally said that he wanted the players to look at Raiden in cutscenes and want to be able to do the same. And he loves MGR and wants Platinum to make a sequel, so yeah. Original intention wasn't working out as a good game and Kojima is perfectly fine with what Platinum made.
  • Portrays Raiden as "Jack the Ripper" only to be edgy and "original," when he was supposed to give up fighting
Bullshit. You have to ignore almost everything about Raiden in MGS 2 and 4 to think like that. \

Firstly, he can't give up fighting. Full cyborgs like him are pretty much limited to military jobs because people are prejudiced against them. It is explicitly stated that even human-looking bodies like the one that he had at the end of MGR4 are still not realistic enough to pass as a normal person. Plus a regular job just doesn't pays enough to afford the expensive maintenance that his body requires. That's why ended up joining Maverick.

Secondly, he's a broken person that had a horribly traumatic childhood and was used as a supersoldier guinea pig by the government. Something like that doesn't just goes away. The big part of his character arc in MGR is that Raiden has to accept that Jack the Ripper is a permanent and important part of his psyche. He is a ****** up killer, but he has a good sense of right and wrong and is ready to sacrifice his life to protect the weak and prevent people like Armstrong from creating more Jacks. Calling him "edgy" is, well, very stupid.

  • Has little no actual combo tech ie. fighting game mechanics"
It has a perfectly fine move list, it has combos, and it has mechanics for stringing combos together and avoiding interruption from enemies (Blade Mode Cancelling and Dodge Offset).

I'm done. Are you happy now? :/
Now THAT is what I was expecting.
 

Meier

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
55
Reaction score
53
Points
210
Age
37
I am tired and frustrated due to work-related reasons, I hope that this post doesn't comes off as antagonistic.
For snake returning I was talking about MGS2. He's just in the first area and then Raiden takes over. I was just saying that back in the day that made me quit the game for a long time. When I finally got to playing it I was pleasantly surprised at how great it really was.

Deus ex machina means god out of a box. A plot device used out of convenience when there is no logical outcome to the story so far. Out of nowhere the Senator appears and becomes the bad guy without any build up to him at all, or even a mention of him (maybe in some codec somewhere). Remember, the senator himself acknowledges the end of the patriots but just wants to continue things without them. He's basically has some throwaway line to tie him to the patriots.

Yeah I can't wait for ground zero as well. :)

The f bombs is by far a legit example of gamer hypocracy. Take NG3, nearly every other enemy says f you in the middle of fighting them. You can hear it probably close to twenty times in the first level alone. The rant by the senator in MGR is ridiculous no matter what excuse you have for it. Raiden himself throws out weird cursing around too. What makes the Succubus fight weird is how blatant and ridiculous it is. Its supposed to be stupid funny, but I can see how for many people it fell flat. I honest love the prom date line, but to each their own. But if you want to talk about cursing in context well the succubus is the epitome of disgusting, so naturally you hear disgusting dialog from her. This is why I say its hypocritical, because MGR gets to do it and DmC gets panned even though both have their logical reasons.

I don't know what emo music is? How about cap'n jazz, rites of spring, jawbreaker, and make believe? I know what emo is and I like legit emo music. I was referring to what pop culture calls emo music, which is basically generic guitar rift butt rock layered on whiny sounding singing like in panic! at the disco, or MGR. Combichrist is a newschool industrial band, whereas the DMC series always had a gothic and/or industrial sound to it depending on the game. Personally I would have went with Ministry if possible, but that's because I'm a fanboy for their music.

"The meme" bit was classic though. Needs to be a meme.
 

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Premium
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Messages
8,957
Reaction score
11,125
Points
17,315
Age
26
I, too, am shocked by people paying attention to context and execution.

take it as you want, but it does feel one-sided that if I say raiden is a phsycopath who use to be more well rounded, people expect me to except their answer or get a better view of it. But in terms of answering why dante says F- you in DmC is unexcusable no matter how much its blaintly seen why he's more ruff then original Dante.
 

HatredIsJoy

Well-known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
94
Reaction score
42
Points
110
Senator Armstrong was in the second chapter, in the cutscene after you use the a Dwarf Gekko to hack the memory databank. He doesn't wants to continue doing what Patriots did. He wants to use the war economy and their bullshit memes to get power so that he can use it to destroy the war economy and their bullshit memes. He is called out for how insane this is, so it's not like we're supposed to think that it's a brilliant idea. He is a crazy villain who wants to purge the weak, after all.

I won't say anything more about the swearing part because it appears that it'll just lead to a long argument about opinions. Let's agree to disagree and all that.

I guess the pop culture here in glorious Putinland is very different, because MGR music isn't very similar to what MTV and the like calls emo music. It's just buttrock, dude. I don't remember any really whiny and emo-ish lyrics, but I didn't payed attention to every song so I may be wrong.
 
Top