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The time has come, bayo3 vs dmc5

devil_inside123

The devil in the dark
Feb 17, 2015
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The release of bayo 3 kind of snuck on me but now that I'm aware of it I'm curious how people think it holds up to dmcv, being direct contemporaries and all, in specific I know @berto might have some thoughts on this. But in particular I noticed alot of parallels and can't help but compare and in my honest opinion the points that I found eerily similar I also found much better done in DMC 5, i. Particular viola vs Nero and Dante and bayo both being written off. Dantes felt much more earned l, especially considering the story was actually dealing with his past while bayo 3 is all new with no personal stakes, and I much could've done without the forced Luka romance, I love the guy, but much more as a bachelor, I had thought viola was jeannes daughter and would've prefered that, she looms more similar to her anyhow. Idk. While the individual setpeices were spectacular as ever the more serious aspects of the story feel either hamfisted or like a dollar brand version of dmc5's story. Only spot where it felt distinctly bayo that wasn't a one off fight were when THE OTHER two bayos were on screen. Main bayo feels much too vulnerable at multiple points in a way I'd say was out of Chara
 
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berto

I Saw the Devil
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Oct 15, 2011
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Since you asked me directly I'll give you as honest a response as I can.

I actually never thought of comparing them from the start. I find both a very different experience and I approach them both as separate entities. Yes, Bayo references DMC1 a lot but it also references RE2, VJ, Okami and everything P+has released up to the point of each game. That being said, the similarities are... there(?). Hard to deny. As send offs to the 'leads of old' I found neither a satisfactory experience. For one they're unwarranted. Neither Bayo nor Dante are in need of replacement, though I have a theory as to why Bayo was seen off at all. I know that the staff really don't know what to do with Dante so they made Nero, who's fine, but not exactly someone I'd pay full price to play the game for, and that goes double for Viola. I'm not playing DMC for Nero nor Bayo for Viola, nor Jeanne, for that matter, it's for the leads I fell in love with, so I already don't care for this aspect of these games.

I have other, heavy thoughts on Bayo 3 but, when it comes to a farewell titles, the whole thing came off as rushed and pushed. Bayo was never invulnerable, she took her beatings in both of the previous games, she had moments of vulnerability and was overpowered on more than one occasion but, here, she just kept dying. Yeah, her counterparts, but the idea is the same, specially when you start the game with a Bayo that very closely resembles the one we've known all along. I'm not a fan of these superoverwhelmingthereisnohopeofwinningwe'realldoomedthecharacterthatcouldnotbebeathasmettheirmatch BS scenarios. They're dumb and superficial. There are better ways to go about this and it cheapens both the characters and the story while making light of someone we know to be better, to just make someone who is too powerful for the lead without any real establishment, of which I'd argue DMC5 is also guilty of. It's the same as introducing a new character and showing how badass they are by kicking the s**t of an established one. They do this to Darth Vader aaaallllll the time. Some for DC and Marvel characters.

By simply being so powerful that no Cereza can win the villain and the stakes feel cheap and artificially high. It also stumps on the characters we've grown to love. The way Jeanne died, for example, was cheap and the character deserved far, far better. That was no way to treat a fan favorite from the series, to discard them with such mediocrity, as though she were a red shirt. You don't discard iconic characters like this, you have to give them a proper send off, a meaningful death or a sincere goodbye, which I don't think that other scene where she reappears counts as good enough. The same has to apply to all the other Cerezas; their deaths are just as red shirt. If each is just as important as our Bayonetta their deaths should be just meaningful and impactful to the narrative. The only one that got one that even came close was the Egyptian princes. Everyone else just dies and ok, cool, coving on.

While I don't think very highly of how DMC5 ended it very clearly did a better job with its characters departures than Bayo 3 did for this fact, alone. It's a dumb ending but there is an established reason for it. For Vergil it's a son, for Dante it's his brother, even if the English dub did a pi** poor job of establishing that. Cereza and Luka's final scene wasn't bad on its own but it wasn't earned. I have nothing against their romance. It's something that's been a thing since 1, so all that lesbian bs can get bent, but you have to establish it again in the game you are in if it's going to be a central part of their characters here. You can't simply say oh, they're a couple and they have a child. You have to show it at least once and, no, not at the end. One simple gesture of love when they meet would've gone a long way to cement this.

I'll edit this later with more but i have work in the morning so I'll have to leave this as is for now.
 
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devil_inside123

The devil in the dark
Feb 17, 2015
402
111
1,605
Since you asked me directly I'll give you as honest a response as I can.

I actually never thought of comparing them from the start. I find both a very different experience and I approach them both as separate entities. Yes, Bayo references DMC1 a lot but it also references RE2, VJ, Okami and everything P+has released up to the point of each game. That being said, the similarities are... there(?). Hard to deny. As send offs to the 'leads of old' I found neither a satisfactory experience. For one they're unwarranted. Neither Bayo nor Dante are in need of replacement, though I have a theory as to why Bayo was seen off at all. I know that the staff really don't know what to do with Dante so they made Nero, who's fine, but not exactly someone I'd pay full price to play the game for, and that goes double for Viola. I'm not playing DMC for Nero nor Bayo for Viola, nor Jeanne, for that matter, it's for the leads I fell in love with, so I already don't care for this aspect of these games.

I have other, heavy thoughts on Bayo 3 but, when it comes to a farewell titles, the whole thing came off as rushed and pushed. Bayo was never invulnerable, she took her beatings in both of the previous games, she had moments of vulnerability and was overpowered on more than one occasion but, here, she just kept dying. Yeah, her counterparts, but the idea is the same, specially when you start the game with a Bayo that very closely resembles the one we've known all along. I'm not a fan of these superoverwhelmingthereisnohopeofwinningwe'realldoomedthecharacterthatcouldnotbebeathasmettheirmatch BS scenarios. They're dumb and superficial. There are better ways to go about this and it cheapens both the characters and the story while making light of someone we know to be better, to just make someone who is too powerful for the lead without any real establishment, of which I'd argue DMC5 is also guilty of. It's the same as introducing a new character and showing how badass they are by kicking the s**t of an established one. They do this to Darth Vader aaaallllll the time. Some for DC and Marvel characters.

By simply being so powerful that no Cereza can win the villain and the stakes feel cheap and artificially high. It also stumps on the characters we've grown to love. The way Jeanne died, for example, was cheap and the character deserved far, far better. That was no way to treat a fan favorite from the series, to discard them with such mediocrity, as though she were a red shirt. You don't discard iconic characters like this, you have to give them a proper send off, a meaningful death or a sincere goodbye, which I don't think that other scene where she reappears counts as good enough. The same has to apply to all the other Cerezas; their deaths are just as red shirt. If each is just as important as our Bayonetta their deaths should be just meaningful and impactful to the narrative. The only one that got one that even came close was the Egyptian princes. Everyone else just dies and ok, cool, coving on.

While I don't think very highly of how DMC5 ended it very clearly did a better job with its characters departures than Bayo 3 did for this fact, alone. It's a dumb ending but there is an established reason for it. For Vergil it's a son, for Dante it's his brother, even if the English dub did a pi** poor job of establishing that. Cereza and Luka's final scene wasn't bad on its own but it wasn't earned. I have nothing against their romance. It's something that's been a thing since 1, so all that lesbian bs can get bent, but you have to establish it again in the game you are in if it's going to be a central part of their characters here. You can't simply say oh, they're a couple and they have a child. You have to show it at least once and, no, not at the end. One simple gesture of love when they meet would've gone a long way to cement this.

I'll edit this later with more but i have work in the morning so I'll have to leave this as is for now.
Only reason I felt fine with Dante getting stomped is because it was vergil, someone who canonical did it before and they didn't show literally 8 different Dantes dying like chumps
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
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Oct 15, 2011
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Only reason I felt fine with Dante getting stomped is because it was vergil, someone who canonical did it before and they didn't show literally 8 different Dantes dying like chumps
I'd be ok with it if it were a consistent thing but the issue in 5 is that it happens, Datne gets his ass handed to him in a big way to establish that these are the stakes, something so big Even he can't win against, but it doesn't persist. Once that's done we go back to Dante winning everything thus breaking those oh, so high stakes they established at the start showing that, in reality, there was no real grand danger, just needed to complete the sidequest to unlock I'm always winning mode.

One of the brilliant things about DMC3 is the progression of the fights between Dante and Vergil. In the first he loses. In the second it's left undecided but very evenly matched. It's on the 3rd fight, when Dante's gone through a whole lot of growing that he is unquestionably victorious. There is a progression and real sense of growth. It's not an easy road, either. He doesn't just get a beating from Vergil, he also, literally, gets his face stumped by Arkham and later he has to be 'saved' by Vergil. It's not a perfect presentation, in fact, it could use a bit of work, but it's a more well balanced path than 5. He's not always just winning.

That's a pretty heavy point of contention for me in 5, that when Dante struggles it's not really escalated properly. It happens but then goes away and then it kinda comes back because the story needs it with a build up that I find tenuous. With that being said, Bayo 3 is far more so.
 
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