SPOILER: Do not trust him Nero!

Stylish Nero

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That'd actually make a lot of sense, Arkham was known to dabble in sorcery so why couldn't his grandson do the same.
What makes you think V is Arkham's grandson? He looks nothing like Arkham, Lady, or even Dante. He doesn't have Arkham and Lady's eyes or Dante's hair and blue eyes like Nero has his father's.

@Innsmouth
I agree. Apparently classic dmc is easily distracted and not good at following through on its ideas.

@DarkSlayerVergil
Another user @Morgan argued that Lady should have those powers by virtue of growing up in his house.

@Lain
I feel like DmC should have done more with the witchcraft-demon connection. Its more of a Western trope than eastern.

Patty would've benefited from being more of a witch. She has a heritage she doesn't understand nor powers she can control. That would give Dante extra incentive to keep her around and speak to his own history.

Kyrie might have benefited from being a witch as it would give her more to do, set up Fortuna's culture, you could have her be rivals with Patty, and even give her a face heel turn down the road. She could be seduced by power like Willow in Buffy season 6.

So much they could do....
We already had a sorcerer in DMC2 remember this guy



Yeah I guess Arkham counts too.

Yeah that makes sense for Lady. Learn the same demonic arts that corrupted her dad and caused him to murder his wife/her mom and ruin her life. Yeah let's not forget she hates all demons and wants to kill them all for corrupting her father. Lets ignore her development to become a strong human through intense physical training, mastery of acrobatics, and becoming proficient in firearms (human made weapons via human ingenuity) and trying to prove Dante's (and this series) point of human heart and determination is capable of overcoming demonic power.

Fortuna is a religious society that hunts demons (otherwise Nero wouldn't hide his demonic arm) and Kyrie lost her parents to demons why would she engage in demonic arts and witchcraft. Rivalry between Patty and Kyrie? I can understand making Kyrie more relevant but do we need to drag anime characters into this....well I guess DMC5 did with Morrison.

This series is called Devil May Cry not Witch May Cry. Its focus was on demons and not witches. We have Bayonetta for that.

There are magic users and sorcerers and witches in this series and we have V who falls in that category as a full playable character so its unfair to say DMC drops its themes and ideas or gets easily distracted (especially when the series never revolved human magic users but on the duality of humans and demons. Why is it that the humans who sells their souls for witchcraft like Arius and Arkham usually end up being the villains). Gets distracted by what its own themes and ideas.

Also witches isn't a Western concept. Shamans and all sorts of mysticism is very prevalent in Eastern and Asian cultures as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
 

DarkSlayerVergil

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What makes you think V is Arkham's grandson? He looks nothing like Arkham, Lady, or even Dante. He doesn't have Arkham and Lady's eyes or Dante's hair and blue eyes like Nero has his father's.
I never claimed he was Dante and Lady's son, I was simply responding within the context of Z218's comment:
@Innsmouth

I'd say Nero's origin are more underwhelming than convoluted. His origins make sense but the writing of 4 didn't do a good job setting that up for the player. Similar to DMC 2 and anime, they aren't plotholes just poorly set up.

It's a possibility he got those powers through arkham's bloodline than Dante's. Plus Nero has abilities that Dante and Vergil don't have and vice versa.
 

Carlos

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When I saw the video, and photos, I thought "hm. Maybe Urizen knows Nero and V." Followed by "Urizen is Vergil" by the way he spoke to Nero. Or at least, Urizen is a vessel of Vergil. So, now I have more questions than answers.

I hope he's a new character, but the way the leaks are driving the story, it's either going to reveal a new family member in the sparda bloodline, or a completely new set of characters. I can't wait to see how powerful Urizen really is. Right now, he seems pretty powerful, knocking everyone down with a few blows. And more powerful than Dante? That would make Nelo Angelo and Mundus both minuscule in retrospect. Brings me to a new question: Who is more powerful than Dante, Vergil, Nero...?

Damn. March can't get here sooner!
 

gmc

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When I saw the video, and photos, I thought "hm. Maybe Urizen knows Nero and V." Followed by "Urizen is Vergil" by the way he spoke to Nero. Or at least, Urizen is a vessel of Vergil. So, now I have more questions than answers.

I hope he's a new character, but the way the leaks are driving the story, it's either going to reveal a new family member in the sparda bloodline, or a completely new set of characters. I can't wait to see how powerful Urizen really is. Right now, he seems pretty powerful, knocking everyone down with a few blows. And more powerful than Dante? That would make Nelo Angelo and Mundus both minuscule in retrospect. Brings me to a new question: Who is more powerful than Dante, Vergil, Nero...?

Damn. March can't get here sooner!
the real life urizen is supposedly the creator of the real world so its most likely urizen here is the dmc version of god
 

Z218

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@Stylish Nero
Me and Innsmouth were talking about the reveal of Nero being Vergil's kid not witches.

Patty was around 8/9 in the anime so in 4/5/2 she would be much older and that could take her character in more directions. I'm not against using old characters in new ways.

I didn't mean witches were a western concept, i meant the idea of witches being the servants of demons might have been.
 

LordOfDarkness

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I don't think Vergil's intentions are bad. I'm pretty sure it was him that took Nero's arm, but he probably wanted Yamato to try and stop Urizen.

Hmm, Urizen looking pretty OP at this point. Still can't seem to trust this V guy, don't know why though.
 

Z218

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I don't think Vergil's intentions are bad. I'm pretty sure it was him that took Nero's arm, but he probably wanted Yamato to try and stop Urizen.

Hmm, Urizen looking pretty OP at this point. Still can't seem to trust this V guy, don't know why though.
He's the new guy on the block?

He told Nero it was Urizem who took his arm while we know its Vergil?

He looks more DmC than DMC?
 

Morgan

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@DarkSlayerVergil
Another user @Morgan argued that Lady should have those powers by virtue of growing up in his house.
And now I need to go find out where I said that and how I said it!
:tongue:

Yeah that makes sense for Lady. Learn the same demonic arts that corrupted her dad and caused him to murder his wife/her mom and ruin her life. Yeah let's not forget she hates all demons and wants to kill them all for corrupting her father. Lets ignore her development to become a strong human through intense physical training, mastery of acrobatics, and becoming proficient in firearms (human made weapons via human ingenuity) and trying to prove Dante's (and this series) point of human heart and determination is capable of overcoming demonic power.
1. Has Lady killed all demons yet?
2. Wasn't she being incredibly bigoted throughout the third game?
3. Wasn't a key lesson in her character development the realization that "not all demons are evil", and that Arkham was corrupt regardless of the excuse he had?
4. Didn't Arkham literally try using "The Devil Made Me Do It" to exploit his daughter's black-and-white view of morals, and his saying that a demon corrupted him into murdering his wife was a total falsehood?
5. Wasn't there a big point of having Dante discourage Lady from her life's quest despite her clear determination and willpower, and the narrative proved him right by having Lady verbally pass the torch of "freeing Arkham" to Dante, with her giving up an emotionally significant item for him to use as his weapon in the same vein as boss devils giving up their literal souls to him in combat?
6. Didn't the above happen despite Dante's own admission that he "didn't give a damn" for about 4/5ths of the game while Lady clearly gave a damn from the word Go, meaning that for all intents and purposes, Lady should have been the actual protagonist since Dante's character was just "along for the ride", but instead her character existed to provide development for his, with hers being an afterthought to a game she freaking narrated?
7. Didn't Lady only get the upper hand on Arkham after Arkham had his butt thoroughly whooped by the twins, and he was paralyzed and half-dead at her feet without her having beaten him at anything even once, and every other scene where she faced him had her outclassed, outpaced, and knocked down?
8. If that final scene had been removed entirely, would "Lady shot Arkham in the end" occur to anyone to think of as an actual event?
9. Name a single 100% human that's defeated a devil through solely human heart and determination. I'll wait.

Like, I hate the way this series handles the relationships between devils and humans and how it approaches morality with regards to human attainment of demonic power versus demonic attainment of humanity (the latter is praised, the former is, well, demonized), but... really. It'd be delusional to deny that Lady had a remotely good showing in DMC3 as a character and not as a Manic Pixie Dream Girl with Guns, Rockets, and Clunky Dialogue. Giving her magic would have served her as a character, at least since it's clear Capcom was only going halfway with ripping her character from Beryl. Except Beryl actually teamed up with Dante for the final boss in the novel.

Now I need to go find what I said about Lady learning magic. It's gonna eat at my brain if I don't get those exact words. :tongue:

EDIT: FOUND MY WORDS!

I actually have this pet idea, that Vergil and Lady should have traded goals. Lady's animosity wouldn't be to the level of "Kill them all!" because that makes no sense-- her quest for revenge would be strictly personal and not her taking her anger out on an entire race. Maybe even have her focus be on "undoing what Arkham did" on his terms, gaining dark power in order to defeat him herself, then trading his soul to bring her mother back to life. Her arc would involve her realizing that she'd become too much like her father with that action and opt instead to just kill Arkham and let her mother rest in peace instead of potentially twisting her soul with dark magic or something. (Judging from Arkham's scar, the rituals have drawbacks).

But Vergil? The plot around him would write itself. The details about how he hates "cancerous human emotions" and that weird blurb in the manga about how he considered his own father "Evil" (wtf??) would be explained because Sparda showed compassion to his enemies. [...] Vergil's whole purpose would then be "I'll surpass my father and do what he couldn't, AND KILL EVERY LAST DEMON", humans in the crossfire be damned. It's like Loki trying to lay waste to Jotunheim using the Bifrost and letting Asgard come to harm repeatedly in order to get the glory after killing the Frost Giants. It makes sense with his character. Dante and Vergil could even have the "You can't kill an entire race!" "Why not?" exchange, because facilitating genocide is not the normal, well-reasoned answer to one person dying, and the resentment would run deep enough that the solution wouldn't be "beat the character enough times and hope they stop being so racist" (see: Lady). Vergil would realize his actions wouldn't make him like his father and learn from that.
So yes. There's nothing stopping any human with the will and the means to learn magic from learning magic. What should matter most is what it's used for, since magic is a tool like literally any other thing used in the series to serve a goal. If this type of plot is rejected on the grounds that demonic power is automatically evil/corrupts absolutely, with no guarantee that whoever uses demonic power can stay good, there should be discourse for eons on whether Dante has been corrupt/self-serving this whole time, when (not if) he will become corrupt if it's determined that it hasn't happened yet, or if any "good devil" we've ever seen (including Sparda! including Trish, even!) is/was ever truly good or if the concept of redemption is a fool's errand because goodness for those who use demon power is a falsehood, but we'll never get that plot because author fiat.

Aside from that, we can go on about "human determination and ingenuity" but like I said, not once was Lady shown defeating any of the demonically enhanced humanoid characters she's ever fought with. Not Arkham, not Dante, not Vergil, not Trish. Just lowly lesser demons with no consciousness that every other character has been able to kill because they're incredibly low in status and power. Every other character has defeated a lesser demon at some point without breaking a sweat, with the exception of Kyrie who's never killed any demon only because she's a non-combatant.

Demonic magic/enhancement is such a better deal than being a 100% human in this series, even in a meta sense. Do people really pick up this series to get anything about "human heart and determination"? Part-demons or full-demons are playable, important characters, even when they're not playable they're important, and the game is built around their bloodline bonuses. Healing/regeneration, demon transformation, quick reflexes, random weapon mastery, and sick combos that players love to find new ways to pull off. What does a human do in the series? They're a supporting character for someone else's story, they're killed off in the backstory, overpowered by a villain and used as a bargaining tool, or in Lady's own case, she's only made playable a decade after her debut on a special edition to a game that came out eight years before.

In lieu of Lady getting into magic or becoming a demon, maybe she should have been born one, given the trends in the series. Maybe Capcom would treat her better if that was in her plot.
 
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Stylish Nero

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And now I need to go find out where I said that and how I said it!
:tongue:



1. Has Lady killed all demons yet?
2. Wasn't she being incredibly bigoted throughout the third game?
3. Wasn't a key lesson in her character development the realization that "not all demons are evil", and that Arkham was corrupt regardless of the excuse he had?
4. Didn't Arkham literally try using "The Devil Made Me Do It" to exploit his daughter's black-and-white view of morals, and his saying that a demon corrupted him into murdering his wife was a total falsehood?
5. Wasn't there a big point of having Dante discourage Lady from her life's quest despite her clear determination and willpower, and the narrative proved him right by having Lady verbally pass the torch of "freeing Arkham" to Dante, with her giving up an emotionally significant item for him to use as his weapon in the same vein as boss devils giving up their literal souls to him in combat?
6. Didn't the above happen despite Dante's own admission that he "didn't give a damn" for about 4/5ths of the game while Lady clearly gave a damn from the word Go, meaning that for all intents and purposes, Lady should have been the actual protagonist since Dante's character was just "along for the ride", but instead her character existed to provide development for his, with hers being an afterthought to a game she freaking narrated?
7. Didn't Lady only get the upper hand on Arkham after Arkham had his butt thoroughly whooped by the twins, and he was paralyzed and half-dead at her feet without her having beaten him at anything even once, and every other scene where she faced him had her outclassed, outpaced, and knocked down?
8. If that final scene had been removed entirely, would "Lady shot Arkham in the end" occur to anyone to think of as an actual event?
9. Name a single 100% human that's defeated a devil through solely human heart and determination. I'll wait.

Like, I hate the way this series handles the relationships between devils and humans and how it approaches morality with regards to human attainment of demonic power versus demonic attainment of humanity (the latter is praised, the former is, well, demonized), but... really. It'd be delusional to deny that Lady had a remotely good showing in DMC3 as a character and not as a Manic Pixie Dream Girl with Guns, Rockets, and Clunky Dialogue. Giving her magic would have served her as a character, at least since it's clear Capcom was only going halfway with ripping her character from Beryl. Except Beryl actually teamed up with Dante for the final boss in the novel.

Now I need to go find what I said about Lady learning magic. It's gonna eat at my brain if I don't get those exact words. :tongue:
1. If she did the series would be over besides by the end of DMC3 she still proclaim her life duty is to eliminate all demons (probably just the one's on Earth) to make sure more people like her father isn't made.
2. Its hard to be bigoted towards a collective group of non-human species who on a regular basis (and on instinct) eat and kill humans and want to dominate humans. DMC operates on the notion that demons on the average are savage, primal monsters whose main reason for existing is to f**k with humans and demon who aren't like that aren't demons (when Dante in DMC1 said Trish isn't a demon because demons can't produce tears).
3. No she learned some demons are more human than some humans but at the end of the day she still strives to eliminate all demons (at the very least the ones that cause trouble).
4. No not really. Whether he still seeked out demonic power and that corrupted him. To become a demon he needed to sacrifice his wife. Demons still played a role in his actions. He tried to pin blame on Vergil (who had nothing to do with his corruption) and claim he was being brainwashed all this time not blame all demons. Arkham did everything of his own accord but demons still played a role in his corruption.
5. Dante never told her to stop killing demons (otherwise she would stop being a Devil Hunter). Dante didn't want Lady to get herself killed over a conflicted started by his own family and she was too injured to continue fighting so she should have faith in him to clean up this mess because Arkham is his responsibility too. It was less about don't hate all demons but putting your faith in others and relying on the strength on others (even demons like Dante and Trish).
6. Lady underwent her own arc in DMC3 in tandem with Dante. I mean yeah she could be the protagonist but Dante has been the protagonist since the first game and while half demon he is capable of overcoming tremendous demonic forces due to embracing his humanity and is the reason why he was able to defeat Vergil in DMC3 (who forsaken his human side) as cheesy as that sounds.
7. You have a point there but Lady at that time was still developing and due to plot and the fact its a video game couldn't beat Arkham (its pretty rare in video games where unplayable characters defeat a major villain and if they do its usually after the main playable character(s) do). She was only demon hunting for a few years and for regular human who like what started doing this for like 3 years the fact she made up that tower and pass all those demons (although Dante dealt with the more powerful foes) trough sheer tenacity and skill is quite impressive. I'm sure the Lady now could take Arkham.
8. I don't understand that last part but it seems pretty irrelevant.
9. I guess we can ignore the numerous amounts of demons Lady as mowed down throughout DMC3 and in other media (the anime, etc) and according to DMC4SE and pachinko machines was there during the events of DMC4 helping save civilians and kill demons. Lets not forget the other human characters in the series who are devil hunters like the Order of the Sword (who fell because they started turning themselves into demons).

You make a good point with Beryl but the intent of DMC3's writing was that they wanted Dante and Vergil to come together to beat Arkham. There was no place for Lady in that moment and they used her quite well in that part (for her first appearance). Also I don't remember the DMC2 novel all that well but I looked up Beryl's profile and based on what I remember and know she doesn't utilize demonic power or witchcraft but relies on weaponry and firearms like Lady. So the fact a human character not using demonic power can help Dante defeat a demon with power on par or a greater than Dante's is more fuel to my point that you dont need to give a human demon powers to make them relevant it really boils down to writing and how its done.

DMC5 seems to be enforcing this theme even more by taking away Nero's demonic arm (the source of his tremendous demon power) and is replaced with human made/engineered robot arms meaning outside increased agility and durability/healing Nero relies more on his human made assets than demonic ones.
 

DarkSlayerVergil

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EDIT: FOUND MY WORDS!



So yes. There's nothing stopping any human with the will and the means to learn magic from learning magic. What should matter most is what it's used for, since magic is a tool like literally any other thing used in the series to serve a goal. If this type of plot is rejected on the grounds that demonic power is automatically evil/corrupts absolutely, with no guarantee that whoever uses demonic power can stay good, there should be discourse for eons on whether Dante has been corrupt/self-serving this whole time, when (not if) he will become corrupt if it's determined that it hasn't happened yet, or if any "good devil" we've ever seen (including Sparda! including Trish, even!) is/was ever truly good or if the concept of redemption is a fool's errand because goodness for those who use demon power is a falsehood, but we'll never get that plot because author fiat.

Aside from that, we can go on about "human determination and ingenuity" but like I said, not once was Lady shown defeating any of the demonically enhanced humanoid characters she's ever fought with. Not Arkham, not Dante, not Vergil, not Trish. Just lowly lesser demons with no consciousness that every other character has been able to kill because they're incredibly low in status and power. Every other character has defeated a lesser demon at some point without breaking a sweat, with the exception of Kyrie who's never killed any demon only because she's a non-combatant.

Demonic magic/enhancement is such a better deal than being a 100% human in this series, even in a meta sense. Do people really pick up this series to get anything about "human heart and determination"? Part-demons or full-demons are playable, important characters, even when they're not playable they're important, and the game is built around their bloodline bonuses. Healing/regeneration, demon transformation, quick reflexes, random weapon mastery, and sick combos that players love to find new ways to pull off. What does a human do in the series? They're a supporting character for someone else's story, they're killed off in the backstory, overpowered by a villain and used as a bargaining tool, or in Lady's own case, she's only made playable a decade after her debut on a special edition to a game that came out eight years before.

In lieu of Lady getting into magic or becoming a demon, maybe she should have been born one, given the trends in the series. Maybe Capcom would treat her better if that was in her plot.
I remember when thinking of ways to do make a compromise between DMC and DmC, one of the ideas I had was to merge Lady and Kat into one character. This goes for both character design and concept, where she'd have Lady's heterchromia and Kats bendi but now shaped in a crescent moon instead of a star and her weapons would be enhanced with magic to explain how they're able to harm demons.
 

Morgan

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1. If she did the series would be over besides by the end of DMC3 she still proclaim her life duty is to eliminate all demons (probably just the one's on Earth) to make sure more people like her father isn't made.
Did you miss the point of her narration and her entire story? Demons like her father are twisted humans with no empathy and homicidal ambitions, i.e. Sanctus and Arius, not genetic demons. If demons didn't exist, people like him would have likely found other avenues of power and ways to abuse people to get it (see: killing a loved one for inheritance money, etc.) Even the anime shows a human was perfectly willing to endanger a child for money and the woman that did it wasn't actually in league with demons or doing it for demonic power. She just did it for money. If you're going to subscribe to the idea that every single human act of evil in DMC's history was because "demons were involved, everyone would be good otherwise", that's just too woo-woo.

2. Its hard to be bigoted towards a collective group of non-human species who on a regular basis (and on instinct) eat and kill humans and want to dominate humans. DMC operates on the notion that demons on the average are savage, primal monsters whose main reason for existing is to f**k with humans and demons who aren't like that aren't demons (when Dante in DMC1 said Trish isn't a demon because demons can't produce tears).
"Demons who aren't like that aren't demons" except.... genetically. Which is the part that actually matters. You suggesting Trish lost her powers and healing factor as soon as she shed a few tears? What about when Dante did it? Or Lucia? Or Sparda? Nero isn't a demon anymore by virtue of his emotions too, I suppose. Never mind that Trish was specifically created to f#ck with Dante, and she actually fulfilled that part of her purpose clearly in DMC1. So you're saying demons can... stop being demons? Yet actually still keep other things that make them clearly non-human such as their powers, which is the main marker that they are demons, as stated by Lady when she shot Dante in the head and saw him survive it?

And demons are a "collective group" of non-humans who exist only to be evil (you haven't seen the actual majority of demons yet you make this claim?), and yet the premise of the plot is that one of their own betrays them and they somehow have enough of a concept of loyalty and that "betrayal is wrong" to still hold a grudge against that one guy, even though their collective should be too evil to care and he was acting within his morality to stab them all in the back and screw them over, when backstabbing and screwing over to attain or exercise power is part and parcel of being a demon.
3. No she learned some demons are more human than some humans but at the end of the day she still strives to eliminate all demons (at the very least the ones that cause trouble).
"Humans can be as evil as any devil", so she should be seeking out humans that are corrupt and seeking terrible power to abuse people with. She should have been the first person to shoot a bullet in Sanctus's general direction but by DMC4 the series wholly accepts that she alone (despite her human heart/determination and ingenuity) cannot best any humanoid that is remotely demonic, so she fobs the work off to Dante, who is genetically part-demonic and has the power set to pull this off.

4. No not really. Whether he still seeked out demonic power and that corrupted him. To become a demon he needed to sacrifice his wife. Demons still played a role in his actions. He tried to pin blame on Vergil (who had nothing to do with his corruption) and claim he was being brainwashed all this time not blame all demons. Arkham did everything of his own accord but demons still played a role in his corruption.
Arkham was corrupt and did everything of his own accord. That's all. He sought demons and demonic methods of power of his own volition. If demons didn't exist, he would have found something else to latch on to and fulfill his need for power, because it was in his personality. He was not brainwashed at all, no "demons played a part" or not, to say otherwise is just blaming demons by association when in reality he contacted these demons as a peer, not as a victim. The initial festering scar he has on his neck was because he was studying a book and he summoned a demon. That demon didn't come from nowhere.

5. Dante never told her to stop killing demons (otherwise she would stop being a Devil Hunter). Dante didn't want Lady to get herself killed over a conflict started by his own family and she was too injured to continue fighting so she should have faith in him to clean up this mess because Arkham is his responsibility too. It was less about don't hate all demons but putting your faith in others and relying on the strength on others (even demons like Dante and Trish).
Oh, I'm sorry, wasn't your point that human heart and determination can best demonic power? Why would the game go against that and teach her to rely on non-humans?

Perhaps because your point isn't the one that the game wants to make? At all?

And it still stands that the only reason Lady would "get herself killed" in the conflict is an executive decision made from outside of the game, literally if the writers decided it. Beryl in DMC2 was also a human yet was still involved in the conflict against Chen when she could very well have been sidelined.

6. Lady underwent her own arc in DMC3 in tandem with Dante. I mean yeah she could be the protagonist but Dante has been the protagonist since the first game and while half demon he is capable of overcoming tremendous demonic forces due to embracing his humanity and is the reason why he was able to defeat Vergil in DMC3 (who forsaken his human side) as cheesy as that sounds.
So you admit that someone who "embraces their humanity" very late in their own arc is more valuable to the plot than someone who had their humanity from the beginning and was using that to push through most obstacles they were faced with.

So if Dante wasn't embracing his humanity for missions 1 to 15 or so, how was he surviving anything in the tower, which included repeated encounters with "tremendous demonic forces"?

Could it be... because he's a half demon and that gives him genetic perks like increased durability, dexterity, and healing speed, as well as demonic transformations?

If all that Lady needed was her human heart and determination, why did she need to stop at Mission 16, when we've already seen her survive something that is humanly impossible? She was stabbed straight through the femur with a serrated bayonet and instead of bleeding out or even being remotely paralyzed or simply passed out, she remained conscious through the injury, stood perfectly fine on that bad leg, and then a bandage fixed her enough for her to climb up an entire side of tower and end up in the library. So I mean, she clearly has, for an inexperienced devil hunter and a human at that, a high pain tolerance and an inexplicable healing ability. So why wasn't she involved in the last stretch of the game?

Could it be... because she isn't remotely demon and doesn't have the genetic perks usually associated with Dante et. al., and that she stopped being useful except to give Dante morality?

7. You have a point there but Lady at that time was still developing and due to plot and the fact its a video game couldn't beat Arkham (its pretty rare in video games where unplayable characters defeat a major villain and if they do its usually after the main playable character(s) do). She was only demon hunting for a few years and for regular human who like what started doing this for like 3 years the fact she made up that tower and pass all those demons (although Dante dealt with the more powerful foes) trough sheer tenacity and skill is quite impressive. I'm sure the Lady now could take Arkham.
"Still developing" is an excuse. A character is as developed as they're allowed to be and if they're not developed enough, you should ask why. Nero was similarly inexperienced in the ways of saving the entire world from evil megalomaniacs making bids for power, and he only had Yamato for like ten minutes in DMC4, with (depending on who you ask) Dante clearly being more powerful than him, but all he had to say was "I need this..." and Dante just let him have the sword and go off to save the world from an evil megalomaniac.

No, seriously, think about this. Dante kicked Lady’s ass to convince her not to get herself killed facing off against someone she can’t beat because she was inexperienced, full of rage, and going half-cocked into a battle against a supremely powerful being because of a personal issue. But then Nero, who was inexperienced, full of rage, going half cocked into a battle against a supremely powerful being because of a personal issue, Dante lets him go, even though Dante had even less reason to let Nero go than he would have Lady (the Blood of Sparda was needed to awaken the Savior and the Savior wasn't awakened yet, whereas Lady's blood was already used for the Tower and the worst had already happened, so "protecting" her wasn't necessary anymore).

This is what you're accepting.

Also, Lady being strong now doesn't change the past and make it so that she was able to truly end things by her hand when she wanted to do it. She was still weak then, and that's the truth.

And I'm gonna need a source on that "three years". You don't just throw numbers around like that.

8. I don't understand that last part but it seems pretty irrelevant.
Just because you didn't understand my point doesn't mean that I didn't make one.

The point was that Lady shooting Arkham was a complete afterthought. For all intents and purposes, she was done when she gave her Kalina Ann to Dante and said "Please... free my father." and an additional cutscene showed her doing nothing but sitting around while Vergil passed her by, with no hint that she was motivated to stand up and follow them. You could eliminate the scene where she shoots Arkham herself and nothing is out of place, because Arkham's final moments would then be him getting blasted by Dante and Vergil's Jackpot Shot, which is the usual finishing move in the series (Jackpot Shot sealed Mundus, Jackpot Shot obliterated The Despair Embodied, etc.).

If Lady didn't shoot Arkham, people would just accept that he died in Mission 19 and all Lady did was wait for Dante at the bottom of the tower. She doesn't even mention that she did it, so again, not necessary to the narrative in the least bit.

People would accept that it was not human heart/ingenuity/determination that bested Arkham, but the skills of two half-demons whose birthright he stole from them, because that's exactly what happened. Two half-demons defeated "a pure demon" and a human had nothing to do with it except giving one of the pair "more to fight for" as moral support.

Vergil was there to help Dante defeat Arkham while Lady was not there. Explain to me how that works while you argue that Dante's power is "capable of overcoming tremendous demonic forces due to embracing his humanity". What is Vergil overcoming forces with, that he was allowed to defeat a Hell Vanguard, Dante himself, Beowulf, multiple Abyss demons, and also play a part in the defeat of Arkham? It certainly wasn't his humanity. He didn't embrace it, while Lady has it in spades. But he was still there. Maybe because humanity is not actually relevant?

9. I guess we can ignore the numerous amounts of demons Lady as mowed down throughout DMC3 and in other media (the anime, etc) and according to DMC4SE and pachinko machines was there during the events of DMC4 helping save civilians and kill demons. Lets not forget the other human characters in the series who are devil hunters like the Order of the Sword (who fell because they started turning themselves into demons).
I can tell you didn't finish reading the rest of my post when you made this point because it's already addressed that Lady is given "concessions" by being able to kill off lesser demons and weak demons instead of major demonic characters, when the plot revolves around the more major demonic characters making moves and being defeated by Dante or other demonically enhanced characters.

"(who fell because they started turning themselves into demons)" No, they fell because Dante broke through some glass on some Stone Cold Steve Austin sh#t, murdered their Pope, and proceeded to utterly wreck them single-handedly with his own skills when Credo led the charge. They were perfectly fine before that happened and no one in the public suspected anything was wrong with the knights they trusted.

Also, do you really think I give a crap about what possible retcons they show in some Pachinko machines? Saving civilians and killing lesser demons was exactly what Trish was stated to do in the game and the novel, and Lady had nothing to do with it then with her only showing up to collect some cash, so whether or not she's added after the fact to give her the relevance they didn't put in the first two media she could have been featured in actually proves the point that she's only treated like an afterthought and not a character who needs to be consciously thought about and included in things.

You make a good point with Beryl but the intent of DMC3's writing was that they wanted Dante and Vergil to come together to beat Arkham. There was no place for Lady in that moment and they used her quite well in that part (for her first appearance). Also I don't remember the DMC2 novel all that well but I looked up Beryl's profile and based on what I remember and know she doesn't utilize demonic power or witchcraft but relies on weaponry and firearms like Lady. So the fact a human character not using demonic power can help Dante defeat a demon with power on par or a greater than Dante's is more fuel to my point that you don't need to give a human demon powers to make them relevant it really boils down to writing and how its done.
So let me get this straight...
You just said that the fact they had Beryl helping Dante in DMC2 Novel but that they completely neglected to do that for Lady in DMC3 and in every mainline game proper (point out Lady helping defeat the Savior/Sanctus, please!) proves that humans can help defeat great demons and that they can be relevant?

I don't think you understand truly what I'm saying. Beryl is a strike against Lady. Beryl shows that Capcom has refused to make Lady relevant even though the building blocks to her character and her tropes (Beryl herself, since they ripped off her character) was right there in other materials. Lady could have been involved in the battle against Arkham and/or helped take down the Savior, but instead she's killing lesser/weak demons and anything bigger than a lesser demon requires her getting Dante or Trish's help.

"There was no place for Lady in that moment" is an excuse. in DMC3, that was her father they were defeating. She had every right to be there, even more than the guy who stabbed Arkham because he thought Arkham wasn't being evil enough. Again, explain how a half-demon that forsook his humanity for power has more right to defeat a human that forsook his humanity for power, more than the human that taught a half-demon how to embrace his humanity through her own (Lady). I'll wait.

There shouldn't be a difference between one "demon hunting woman with a huge gun and a dead mother whose father got involved with the occult and became a demon, and got a scar from the encounter" and another "demon hunting woman with a huge gun and a dead mother whose father got involved with the occult and became a demon, and possibly got a scar from the encounter", especially when the latter was ripped off of the former, except "writing and how it's done" clearly sidelined the latter character despite her supposed achievements and the moral that you're getting from the story. You even agree with her sidelining saying that she "had no place" and that she was "used quite well" as it was. If she was "used well" already then there's no need to prove that human ingenuity, heart, determination, whatever, by itself can best demonic power, because for a lot of this series, it doesn't do that on its own.

Beryl was relevant in the DMC2 novel. She was after the Beastheads and Chen, and got the Beastheads and Chen. She fought alongside Dante even when Chen mutated into a hulking demon boss, and there was no stretch of the novel where Dante tells her to stop and let him handle the job or otherwise treats her like a little girl. That was in the DMC2 novel.

What you don't seem to grasp is that story is not the story they want to tell in DMCs 3, 4, and possibly 5. If Capcom wanted to show Lady as part of the Arkham boss battle, they would have but they didn't. If they wanted to show Lady playing a major part in taking down the Savior, they would have but they didn't. If they wanted to show Lady and Dante against that boss in the leaked footage, they would have but they didn't: they show her out cold and "possibly dead". How's that for human ingenuity?

DMC5 seems to be enforcing this theme even more by taking away Nero's demonic arm (the source of his tremendous demon power) and is replaced with human made/engineered robot arms meaning outside increased agility and durability/healing Nero relies more on his human made assets than demonic ones.
Firstly, he didn't stop being a quarter-demon just because he lost an arm, just like Dante wouldn't stop being half-demon if he lost his legs and got prosthetics. Secondly, you're using DMC5 to enforce this point that "solely human methods can stand up to demons" when a big deal of those Devil Breakers is that they keep breaking and needing replacement so they're not durable to begin with, and also some of them are made directly from demonic materials and/or have magical properties, see: Ragtime, Buster Arm, Punch Line, and Tomboy. So, Nico is showing human skill in manipulating demonic matter, and Nero will use something made from demon materials and magic to help him defeat demons, and you still think Nico's inventions are 100% mechanical and human? And no magic is involved whatsoever in their use? Or that Nero would be fighting the same way if he didn't get demonic materials in his arms that can magically charge his Blue Rose and Red Queen or an arm that's meant to function the same as his original Devil Bringer or whatever?
 
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ROCKMAN X

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DMC suffers from "DBZ syndrome" Human characters are just irrelevant and only the super powerful beings are relevant, even V seems to be pretty much heavily reliant on Nero&dante despite having magic powers. Someone like Lady is only good for killing fodder demons, it would take some writing efforts to actually make her relevant. Like, her coming up with plans or specialized weapons that can fatally wound stronger demons.
 

Morgan

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DMC suffers from "DBZ syndrome" Human characters are just irrelevant and only the super powerful beings are relevant, even V seems to be pretty much heavily reliant on Nero&dante despite having magic powers. Someone like Lady is only good for killing fodder demons, it would take some writing efforts to actually make her relevant. Like, her coming up with plans or specialized weapons that can fatally wound stronger demons.
EXACTLY.

Even though I personally think the story shouldn't have gone so hard on the DBZ Syndrome to the point where fans treat the series like The Dante Show as much as Dragonball's been The Goku and Vegeta Show, it really is. Capcom is not interested in making humans relevant except for fodder demons and as morality pets for the characters that people want to see and want to play as-- Nero, Dante, Vergil, Trish, maybe Lucia way back in the list. It will take actual effort to amend that and give Lady something to do. Even Kat in the reboot was made relevant by throwing a Molotov at the Hunter and using her projection powers to get a detailed layout of Mundus's HQ near the end.

So if they want to make Lady relevant now, sure, go ahead, but to insist that that's what they already did with her when they didn't or that they absolutely will do it is just mania at best. I don't see how they will anyway when the initial trailer to DMC5 shows military men with no magic to speak of being killed off by lessers within 20 seconds of the trailer, and Nico shows up with Nero, one single quarter-demon, to "save the day" and talk to a dying soldier about how great that Devil Breaker is.
 

Z218

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It's too soon to tell if V is trustworthy or not.
 

Stylish Nero

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Listen I get where you're coming from but I don't want to engage in multi essay long arguments with people. I can't afford it. I'm entering my last year of college so I need to focus on that but I will say this.

The issues you have with DMC is present in most games. The fact the character who seems to resolve most issues and is the most/only relevant character is the main playable character(s). That is how these games are. Bayonetta is a worst offender where you have characters just as capable as the main hero and as interesting like Rodin who DONT.DO.ANYTHING.

Even if you give Lady magic it won't make her any more relevant. She is just as relevant as Trish and more relevant than Lucia. Full fledged demons (one that defeated the main bad guy in one of the games).

Besides the female lead this time around is Nico so Lady still probably wouldn't be relevant if you made her a magic user.

I don't know who but someone here makes the statement that DMC ignores magic and that DMC ignores its own themes and ideas while ignoring the fact the main villain in DMC2 was a sorcerer/alchemist and it plays a big role in the story and the fact we have a new PLAYABLE character who specializes in spellcraft and demon summons and essentially the last villains in DMC were humans who dabbled in demonic arts and the multitude of multi media that has various witches, sorcerers, and magic users as well as hints and allusions to how demons affect various human societies like the Vie de Marli.
 

Z218

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So after seeing the tease with V at the end of the tgs18 trailer, i could say he looks like a scetchy dude.
 
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