So, those millions of people Vergil got killed... again.(SPOILERS)

Vergil95

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Camon guy it, no need to think about it... In the end of the anime million of people die killed by Abigail, cities were completely destroyed but nobody cares, dante is seen again joking whit lady Trish morrison and Patty in the destroyed city... Even if I like dmc story sometimes we had to admit that it's simply poor written, and this Is the case whit dmc 5 ending... Even if Vergil redimed himself the writer failed to let us understand it
 

Gel

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Even if Vergil redimed himself the writer failed to let us understand it
Er, it just me or I didn't find him redeemed or changed at all. He seemed exactly the same person he always was. ( Which it can be better than to be a goody goody guy all sudden which wouldn't fit his profile). The same way he seems more charmed by Nero's power than for the boy being his son.
The excuse " I'm want power because my momma didn't love me enough" didn't help either or may I was expecting a little more from it.
All these years to find out a lot of fan's theories were better than the official story.
 

Vergil95

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Er, it just me or I didn't find him redeemed or changed at all. He seemed exactly the same person he always was. ( Which it can be better than to be a goody goody guy all sudden which wouldn't fit his profile). The same way he seems more charmed by Nero's power than for the boy being his son.
The excuse " I'm want power because my momma didn't love me enough" didn't help either or may I was expecting a little more from it.
All these years to find out a lot of fan's theories were better than the official story.
What I get is that vergil wanted power to protect himself because he was always alone in his life, while dante always find people who loved him or friend like lady Trish morrison Patty ecc... Is from love and motivation to protect the people he care about and human that dante get his strenght and will to fight demon... Eva love both Vergil and Dante but her death changed both life significantly, since dante was protected and hide by his mother, he felt his mother love one last time and take his mother advice and he had a different life, he didn't fight mundus minion alone that night because his mother love was whit him... while vergil was left alone and was ambushed by mundus minion when he was plying in that park near his house, he felt abandoned and alone and we don't know how much hate he prove after this since he was a little kid, it's not just momma left me alone and I want power, it s more deeper, vergil was alone all his life after this while dante wasn't, dante changed his name and mundus didn't managed to find him for a long time, also in the dmc anime we find out that by the time dante changed his Name in Tony he went to live in a small town whit a girl who he called mother, and also knew Ernest and other people who he befriend, so he was whit someone who give him love he was never abandoned to himself... while vergil was pursued by mundus minion and alone all he had to to do is search more power and do wathever It take to survive, even killing people and doing bad thing, that s why he became "evil", whitout love and whit yourself alone for an entire life there is little someone can do... This are my interpretation of vergil motivation, analyzing both dmc game story, the anime and the dmc 1, 4 and 5 novel...
 

Lain

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All these years to find out a lot of fan's theories were better than the official story.
No word of a lie, I think at least part of the reason why Vergil was such a fan favourite all these years was the mystery aspect that allowed people to project their own interpretations about his past and why he does the things he does onto him. But once the veil was lifted, people saw that Capcom didn't care to make him out as deep a character as the fans had. :frown:
 

Vergil95

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No word of a lie, I think at least part of the reason why Vergil was such a fan favourite all these years was the mystery aspect that allowed people to project their own interpretations about his past and why he does the things he does onto him. But once the veil was lifted, people saw that Capcom didn't care to make him out as deep a character as the fans had. :frown:
Vergil is a deeper character, if you read my post above you realize how deep it is... Infact dmc 5 make him even deeper than before, the only things that dmc 5 failed is the ending in Wich everyone are happy and forget about the million of people killed by him.... Dmc 5 is in fact centered around vergil if Capcom dosent care about make him deeper they would not have make dmc 5 story as it is, all centered around vergil, even the fact that Nero is his son make him even a deeper character than ever
 
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Gel

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No word of a lie, I think at least part of the reason why Vergil was such a fan favourite all these years was the mystery aspect that allowed people to project their own interpretations about his past and why he does the things he does onto him. But once the veil was lifted, people saw that Capcom didn't care to make him out as deep a character as the fans had. :frown:
People were expecting more than a "alas, poor thing!" from Vergil, but he got stuck into "Driven by envy" in the plot and the infamous and omnipresent Oedipus Complex. It could be worse, but apparently Dan as VA interfered and avoided Vergil come as a totally out of character (as in case of Vergil suggesting Nero's mother was just a toy for his pleasure) and turn it as it was a quick fling or maybe a romance (Dan considers Vergil is not a person who'll get easily in bed with anyone without a reason/connection), so it could be much worse. Now I still find Vergil was nicer to Nero when he thought he was Dante's boy than when he found out Nero was born of his seed. In the end Vergil seems the same guy he always was and he only decides to help Dante to get rid of the tree because he was persuaded to do so, not because he felt bad about it, nor I feel he was really interested in Nero until he found out the boy could submit him, even if he was "only" a human.
I won't lie if I told you I lost any fascination I had with him as a character/villain after seeing the end of DMC5.
Now I could understand he need power to defend himself, but it's a poor excuse for everything he did. Dante has friends and a "family", but he won that with blood and tears and it wasn't given to him for free. Even so Dante didn't open hellgates or kill humans because of it.
"Momma did this to me" can be understandable, but too flat for such personality or actions.
 

Ruisu

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Look you won't get me saying Vergil is redeemed at the end of 5, if anything I think Dante is in hell with him not just to reconnect but also because when he says he wants to "keep an eye on him" he means that if he's not there Vergil might just open a portal out with yamato and do some other crazy genocidal ****, or at least that's his expectation.

That said, if you want an excuse how about the fact that even though all the deaths in Redgrave are a result of Vergils actions, you can't 100% blame him since he was basically insane at that point as Urizen? I mean....


You know what, nevermind whatever point I was trying to make, I just remembered that he basically did the same **** in DMC3 even while being perfectly sound of mind and still didn't care one bit. In the middle of his 'honorable' front and the actor's charismatic performance in 5 is easy to forget how much of an asshole vergil really is.
 

Veloran

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Any action the 'demon' takes is still something the whole man must be credited for,
But that makes no sense. Urizen isn't Vergil, he contradicts Vergil on multiple levels, and before he was split from Vergil we have direct statements that Vergil didn't want to invade the human world like Urizen did, meaning that even when Urizen was "part" of Vergil he didn't have those desires.

People say Urizen is Vergil's "bad" side, but in reality he's just a completely demonic entity that has the same desires most demons do. And V isn't Vergil's "good" side either, he's his humanity. We see V can still lie, threaten, act smug, and have a desire for power and resentment towards Dante. He's just a human.

People were expecting more than a "alas, poor thing!" from Vergil, but he got stuck into "Driven by envy" in the plot and the infamous and omnipresent Oedipus Complex.
"Momma did this to me" can be understandable, but too flat for such personality or actions.
Nowhere is it suggested that Vergil blames Eva for what happened, at most he ruminates about whether or not he and Dante would have opposite perspectives if their positions had been switched that night.

I also don't think that anything in 5 really changes his prior characterization. You call it fan theory, but his ideas about power and how that relates to what happened with Eva that people always talked about were directly stated in multiple sources. And the story in 5 is consistent with that - Eva failed to protect him, Vergil failed to protect her, he blamed this on their humanity and lack of power, which he was forced to tap into just to survive.
 
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Gel

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Nowhere is it suggested that Vergil blames Eva for what happened, at most he ruminates about whether or not he and Dante would have opposite perspectives if their positions had been switched that night.
Vergil unconsciously blames his mother for loving Dante more and sees Dante as a thief ( Dante stole his mother's affection and father's power from him). What he thinks or how he acts derivates from it.
We see Vergil's humanity from V's perspective, how his human side was and all, but in the very end Vergil is EXACTLY as he always was ( with Dante pointing out someone needs to check on him , so neither Dante believes he changed a bit.) Was this made on purpose or just bad writing? In the end it does not matter, because his "redemption" had no impact whatsoever to most of the fandom.
Funny enough V had a great impact on the fandom to the point of people want him to be his own character ( unironically Nero seems to agree).
 

LordOfDarkness

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You can say that V and Urizen aren’t Vergil all you like but they sure as hell didn’t originate from anywhere besides VERGIL. How exactly they formed their own supposed thoughts, feelings, ideas and consciousness is a little beyond me to elaborate on BUT they ARE still Vergil. Nothing can be said otherwise when the game practically shows us this. What more proof or source do people need to understand something that was in the game itself? V merging with Urizen would not reform Vergil if they weren’t basically him in the first place it just isn’t possible any other way and if it is then I’d love to hear how because that’s not what 5 shows us.
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

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Vergil made the decision to cut the weakness from himself , urizen mocked Nero's humanity

And said he had no demon blood running through his veins

Vergil always saw his humanity as a weakness , for all we know he wanted spardas sword to take over the demon/human world after defeating mundus in DMC3

He was pushed by a single desire for power , and oh look urizen was too , I mean he cries out for the need for more power after eating the fruit and being bested by Dante

Biologically speaking v and urizen are both parts of a whole , but his physhe personality and all things that made him who he is were also split

That's what the game shows us , that's the metaphor of it
 

Stylish Nero

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The problem isn't so much them not focusing on all of Vergil's past crimes. But as the OP point's out, in DMC5 they put an awful lot of focus on all the people getting killed and how Urizen needs to be stopped... only for them to completely forget about it when they actually face Urizen/Vergil and as a result it creates a jarring dissonance as the plot shifts to Jerry Springer Sparda family drama show.
The whole civilian casualties (outside being the source for fruit) was never much of a focus to both the heroes and plot. Nero was only in this to get payback for his arm and to bandaid his ego after Dante spat on it. Even V rudely referred to the victims as Qliphoth pollen. Even Nero assumed Dante would be dead and in that thought assumed he was "dried up Dante jerky" which also refers to the victims so when Nero saw them one thing that came to mind "dried up jerky" and as well as the fact they allowed the player to actually attack and destroy the victims remains. Dante even joked about the situation in his dialogue in Mission 11 (saying he prefers to have his cities lively). These people are assholes not the Avengers. Not once did anyone ever say " We need to bring justice to the victims". They were in this to stop Urizen from gaining more power otherwise it would get worst and that they did.

The situation with Vergil is very tricky. He did cause this situation by creating Urizen but he also resolved it and prevented it from getting worst and while we can hold him accountable for the actions of Urizen we should also take into account the actions of V (he warned Dante and the crew about Urizen, meticously planned this all out even getting Nero involved, was saving countless civilians lives during the 1 month timeframe, and was ultimately the one who stopped Urizen in a way). Like what are they going to do turn Vergil into the authorities?

The only logical solution that wasn't outright killing Vergil (Dante wanted to do that but Nero objected and felt there could be other ways to resolve the situation) was basically to have Vergil be stuck in the underworld for a while with Dante as basically his parole officer to keep him in check. Look at as a metaphor for capital punishment since while he did commit a heinous crime via Urizen his actions via V and his last actions does reduce the severity of his sentence and Vergil would make a better asset in dealing with bigger threats if he can work with them.

Vergil unconsciously blames his mother for loving Dante more and sees Dante as a thief ( Dante stole his mother's affection and father's power from him). What he thinks or how he acts derivates from it.
We see Vergil's humanity from V's perspective, how his human side was and all, but in the very end Vergil is EXACTLY as he always was ( with Dante pointing out someone needs to check on him , so neither Dante believes he changed a bit.) Was this made on purpose or just bad writing? In the end it does not matter, because his "redemption" had no impact whatsoever to most of the fandom.
Funny enough V had a great impact on the fandom to the point of people want him to be his own character ( unironically Nero seems to agree).
Oh Gel. I guess you found a shtick. I remember back in ole days you wanted to prove Dante really wanted bang his mom through Trish (despite claims from both Itsuno and Kamiya that the 2 have a friendly working relationship and not romantic). I guess twisting words and interpreting things the way you want them to is still in vogue.

As for this lovely passage right here. Let me just...




What in TARNATION are you talking about?

V (Vergil's humanity) literally stated he just wanted to be protected and loved and had to fall on any means necessary to survive even adopting a might make right dogma that he admittedly took too far. There was even a point where Griffin (a fragment of Vergil's memories) asked V if he was still thinking of "mommy dearest" and V even agrees but admits the past is painful for him. If he hated his mom Griffin wouldn't have mentioned her in such a gracious light. At most Vergil felt abandoned and at most blames Dante for existing that Eva would've found him in time and he wouldn't be in that situation. Nowhere did it indicate that Vergil felt Eva loved Dante more.

For starters there are significant changes in Vergil. A. He actually thanked Nero for helping him out (old Vergil was cold to everyone) B. He actually agreed to cut down the Qliphoth when there was no benefit to him (Dante couldn't get to him when they were in the Temen-ni-Gru and the portals were closing so in a far less dire situation for him he agreed to work with Dante and Nero is telling something) C. The first thing he did when he came back was picked up his childhood William Blake book and stared at it (until Dante attacked him first) and even gave that same book to Nero as some gift.

Granted its not that much but it would be bizarre to have Vergil undergo a complete 180 upon his return. It takes time and even further outside influences to continue the push towards reform. You know like natural character growth? Yes it required convincing to have him clean up his own mess but DMC3 Vergil was beyond stubborn and the DMC5 novel revealed he willingly allowed Mundus (his mother's killer) to make him his puppet if it means defeating Dante so obvious change and the fact Vergil literally doesn't object to Dante basically being his parole officer shows he is willing to further compromise with the heroes.

As for that part. While Dante does stick around Vergil to make sure he doesn't revert back to his evil ways (which makes sense, its called being careful) and within a month the two are having a good time and enjoying sword fighting with each other and if you look at their posture and stances the fact Vergil is holding his sword like a baseball bat and Dante is slouched over in a unpractical position (probably how the 2 used to sword fight as kids for fun) the two aren't taking these sword fight sessions very seriously. Its obvious that within a month that Dante is seeing Vergil in a better light than he did before.

Like literally where did Nero ever say "Man I wish V was still here and not Vergil." I am waiting on these sources Gel.:whistle:
 

Gel

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And since when it is needed to say anything? Nero's interaction with V suggests that guy was at least a close pal of his. Nero liked that guy ( who reciprocates). Vergil behaves like an a** ( just like Urizen) with Nero, after finding out the boy was his. Vergil can be Nero's progenitor, but he will never be his father.
 
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berto

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But that makes no sense. Urizen isn't Vergil, he contradicts Vergil on multiple levels,
Wants power, cares not about humans, intense rivalry towards Dante. I can't think of many contradictions but V and Urizen are two halves of Vergil, not abstract divisions of only one trait and whatever the rest is to the other.

and before he was split from Vergil we have direct statements that Vergil didn't want to invade the human world like Urizen did, meaning that even when Urizen was "part" of Vergil he didn't have those desires.
And V is most definitely not like Vergil yet he is part of him. Half, to be exact. If Vergil is accountable for V's actions, or his human actions, then why isn't he accountable for Urizen's, his demonic ones? Half human, half demon. Not 90% human and only this trivial other part. If one half is accountable then only one half is really Vergil and the other is some other dude. That's not what happened. Both are part of the whole and both left and right hand are accountable for what the man does, not just the one that's eligible.

People say Urizen is Vergil's "bad" side, but in reality he's just a completely demonic entity that has the same desires most demons do. And V isn't Vergil's "good" side either, he's his humanity. We see V can still lie, threaten, act smug, and have a desire for power and resentment towards Dante. He's just a human.
Sparda was a demonic entity and yet that's not how it all turnred out with him. This whole 'he's a demon' argument doesn't float on account that he is his father's son. For him, being a demon doesn't justify anything.
 
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Stylish Nero

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And since when it is needed to say anything? Nero's interaction with V suggests that guy was at least a close pal of his. Nero liked that guy ( who reciprocates). Vergil behaves like an a** ( just like Urizen) with Nero, after finding out the boy was his. Vergil can be Nero's progenitor, but he will never be his father.
Yeah and parts of V and his experiences lives on in Vergil now. Even after coming back one of the first things Vergil does is thanks Nero for he is grateful for helping him out.

While Vergil is a dick to his son (he is a dick to everyone) Nero still cares for Vergil otherwise he wouldn't go to such lengths to save him or stop him from killing him and his brother. He even expressed sadness when Vergil goes off to the underworld. He even reads the book Vergil gave him to probably learn more about his father since V is still a side of Vergil (a part that up until recently he had discarded or subdued) that forms his character. Nero also goes to extreme lengths to have Vergil accept him as his son (literally DDTing and shouting "You will accept my existence!!"). Sure doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care about their old man. Also Nero is an asshole too. If anything he and Vergil would bond over how much of assholes they are.

As Urizen he was far worst to Nero, Vergil at most just didn't want Nero to meddle with his affairs and in the end showed his own form of compassion (physical violence is how these Sparda bois express their love for each other).
 

Gel

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Yeah and parts of V and his experiences lives on in Vergil now. Even after coming back one of the first things Vergil does is thanks Nero for he is grateful for helping him out.
Lol! Nero saying " Poppa, I love you since V lives inside of your being forever!" comes to my mind. *Please don't tell the shippers of this*
 
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I saw Urizen as Vergil unrestrained. Whatever scruples he had are gone. Urizen is who Vergil would potentially become if he suceeded in 3. He also is the future of DmC Vergil.

Urizen's behavior in mission 17 gave me the impression that he does remember his life as Vergil, he just didn't care. He already made up his mind about it and nothing Dante said was gonna change it.
 

Vergil95

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I saw Urizen as Vergil unrestrained. Whatever scruples he had are gone. Urizen is who Vergil would potentially become if he suceeded in 3. He also is the future of DmC Vergil.

Urizen's behavior in mission 17 gave me the impression that he does remember his life as Vergil, he just didn't care. He already made up his mind about it and nothing Dante said was gonna change it.
Urizen is vergil demonic half without his human half V, is vergil human half That restrain him from doing bad bad bad things, that s why vergil split himself so that he can do what he need to do whitout limit... In mission 17 if you look closely you can see that the location of the battle, the house of vergil family, its in reality an urizen memory, his last part of humanity that its still attached to him, Infact when he eat the fruit the location begin to fracture like a glass and dante say that his last part of humanity his now gone, during the battle the location continue too fracture multiple time, demonstrating that Infact urizen had some connection to his memory but that last part of memory is now gone by eating the fruit and he only care about power now...
 
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