Also as I said before Urizen was the half Vergil chose to stick with while the human side was what he got rid of. All Vergil simply did was make himself a full demon.
I saw the opposite to be true. I got the impression that all of Vergils memories went into V, whereas the animalistic obsession with power went into Urizen... and that's all he got.Also as I said before Urizen was the half Vergil chose to stick with while the human side was what he got rid of. All Vergil simply did was make himself a full demon.
For what it's worth, Urizen does recognise Dante and says his name when they first meet in Mission...10 I think it was? The flashback Mission with Dante at any rate."I have no recollection of this tale." Urizen was most likely Nelo Angelo's second and third final forms (which would explain why he never remembered Dante).
But that's not what he did though, Vergil impaled himself with yamato then proceeded to severe his human half from his body and this only left him with his demonic half. People are treating this as though Vergil split himself into 2 people when all he did was simply severe a piece of him.I saw the opposite to be true. I got the impression that all of Vergils memories went into V, whereas the animalistic obsession with power went into Urizen... and that's all he got.
V was closer to Vergil in personality, and combat abilities than Urizen was. Since V merged with a weakened Urizen, I saw that as Vergils good side finally gaining full control over himself.
I guess it depends how you see it.But that's not what he did though, Vergil impaled himself with yamato then proceeded to severe his human half from his body and this only left him with his demonic half. People are treating this as though Vergil split himself into 2 people when all he did was simply severe a piece of him.
Well to be fair to V he is dying and can survive if he merges back with Urizen. Its pretty selfish but I'm sure if you were in his shoes you would rather live right. I'm sure he was genuine when he said he had regretted every decision he made but that seems to be more of how it affects him than how it affects others (even the fact thousands or millions losing their lives because of him and not that he care for those who were killed but feels guilty he was responsible) and while in the novel it did show him save civilians it could be to prevent Urizen from gaining more power than genuinely caring for human lives.For what it's worth, Urizen does recognise Dante and says his name when they first meet in Mission...10 I think it was? The flashback Mission with Dante at any rate.
As for your comment about V when he sees the Angelo. That's an interesting way of seeing it, I had always interpreted it as V being angered by seeing the Angelo because it reminded him of Mundus.
I've been thinking about it and I'm a little iffy on whether V should be referred to as "good" as he does a lot of shady stuff and if his goal was to become complete the entire time then his motives for stopping Urizen may not have been so pure. Hmm... I may need to ponder this more.
Except doing so obviously changed/affected his morals, since his human side would not have acted any differently from demonic side, nor would have recombined Vergil acted differently from Urizen. So no, he was not Vergil. At best, Urizen was a sad parody of Vergil, he had Vergil's obsession with power, but there was just... nothing behind that. Whereas original Vergil, even at his worst, had reasons for that.Also as I said before Urizen was the half Vergil chose to stick with while the human side was what he got rid of. All Vergil simply did was make himself a full demon.
Nope he was still Vergil just without his human side which technically shouldn't really play that much of a role in terms of characters morals at all.I'm simply going off of what was shown which was that Vergil became a full demon after discarding his human half.Except doing so obviously changed/affected his morals, since his human side would not have acted any differently from demonic side, nor would have recombined Vergil acted differently from Urizen. So no, he was not Vergil. At best, Urizen was a sad parody of Vergil, he had Vergil's obsession with power, but there was just... nothing behind that. Whereas original Vergil, even at his worst, had reasons for that.
But that's not what happened.could be that Sparda's seal was just so degraded after millennia that it could no longer stop the Qliphoth from breaking through
I'd be more inclined to agree if he at least said he was sorry.Well the plot of DMC5 actually demanded showing people being impaled and killed since it required human blood sacrifice. DMC3 only alluded to people being murdered since you blood markings and Dante (in game) commenting on some of the demons dragging humans away. The casualties in DMC3 didn't matter at all to the plot. The city could've been abandoned before it rose up or Vergil could've chosen to rise Temen-Ni-Gru in a desert the plot will still play out the same. The Qliphoth had to appear in a populated area and show the tentacles kill people and suck them dry to show what it does and how it works. Otherwise players would be wandering around it and questioning where is it getting its blood from.
No it would not 5 is essentially Vergil's redemption story. Having Vergil 100% responsible for the Qliphoth with zero remorse only to have him make a face turn to work with the heroes would make less sense let alone the cast (well at least Nero and Dante) and audience to forgive him would be a lot harder to buy. Its still hard to buy but it makes sense in its own DMC way.
And don't forget Urizen is still part of Vergil and represents his unwavering need for power at any means necessary. Urizen represents the power hungry Vergil we mainly know from DMC3 but to an insane degree and V the humanity he kept hidden and a more truer side to him.
Actually if you juxtapoxe the ending with DMC3 there is a difference. In DMC3 in the end the 2 realms were merging and rather than listen to Dante and leave the Temen-Ni-Gru to stop it he chose to continue to fight whereas in DMC5 the situation was pretty similar and rather than choosing to continue fighting Nero he chose to go stop the Qliphoth himself and was going to do it alone (Dante tagged along for whatever reason). The Qliphoth isn't really much of an inconvenience to Vergil if the Temen-ni-Gru wasn't one to him before. These types of face turns aren't 180 immediately but in Vergil's case its probably a 45 degree turn. DMC3 Vergil probably wouldn't care at all. If anything the "inconvenience" is just an excuse.
Granted I see your point in not stopping it before and choosing to beat Dante first rather than stop it (although its unknown if he would've stopped it after he beats Dante's ass) but if anything he just went from villain to anti-hero. Its Vergil and Vergil is going to Vergil but at least his portal opening days are over so baby steps. Even in DMC6 Vergil will probably not be the beacon of humanity and justice like his brother and son but work with them for the greater good (but will probably use some excuse like fighting a tough opponent or if Nero or Dante dies he won't be able to settle the score).
Uhmmm also the first thing that happens to Vergil when he came back was that Dante attacked him out of the blue and it was Dante who literally said "Cmon Vergil lets do this!" and then again Vergil probably had a mutual feeling. Its a known plot point in DMC3 that Dante and Vergil just really love
stabbingfighting each other no matter how irrational it is. A plot point that is carried over even into DMC5. Dante is equally at fault for wanting to fight Vergil before trying to resolve the issue at hand.
The first thing he does when he comes back is pick up V's book. Which is either the same book of William Blake poetry he got from the old man as a child or a recreation of it that came when he split out V (probably the same one though). The V on the book is probably his initial that he engraved on it to have ownership of it to prevent Dante from stealing it. So his experiences as V still hold some weight with him and in the end he gave that same book to Nero. Probably his most valuable possession (outside their mother's amulet but he doesn't have that anymore) so while his growth isn't in your face and obvious he isn't the same guy as he was before.....mostly.
As for your last point,
Vergil isn't the type to say sorry. It would be very out of the blue and even against his character if he openly expresses himself like that. Like I said before baby steps. Vergil isn't going to have some drastic 180 degree character change in a span of an hour or so. That is how these villain face turns usually works.But that's not what happened.
Urizen and the tree showed up at the same time. So it's only logical to assume that Vergil, after splitting, brought the Qliphoth into the human world.
I'd be more inclined to agree if he at least said he was sorry.
More accurately, I should have said that they were born from those aspects of Vergil, but once they were distinct beings, they were their own.No my dude it definitely makes them him. V is Vergil’s good and Urizen is Vergil’s dark.
Because they were originally part of Vergil, and reuniting remade him. V and Urizen being individuals when they were on their own doesn't preclude Vergil being reborn if they were to recombine.If you’re saying they’re not him then how or why would V merging with Urizen “restore” Vergil?
It shows the opposite, really. V and Urizen both look and behave differently from Vergil. And they're separate consciousness too. Again, one of the main themes of the game is that experience, perspective, and individual qualia very much constitutes what makes a person.The game literally shows us that they are both just him.
V wanted to kill Urizen for most of the game though. And I don't think it comes down to V wanting to survive in some way, given he knew from the very start that he was falling apart.V realising that if Dante were to kill Urizen that would essentially destroy his demon/dark side meant that V had to merge himself back to Urizen to reform Vergil.
But it was never Vergil's choice to "wield" Urizen.the actions of the gun which being a separate entity still fall on the person who's decision it was to wield it
Maybe that makes sense as an initial assumption, but a number of things which I've previously pointed out seem to go against that.Urizen and the tree showed up at the same time. So it's only logical to assume that Vergil, after splitting, brought the Qlipoth into the human world.
Can you really call it Vergil when it lacked his memories, emotions, morals, ideals, and motivations?Nope he was still Vergil just without his human side
I mean, I think I've provided enough evidence and argumentation, backed by the main themes of the game and the contradictory nature of Urizen and V to Vergil, to show that as not being the case, but you do you.V and Urizen were just Vergil. That’s how I see it and that’s what I took from the game.
But V was dying and only barely held together by demonic energy from the start, and he still wanted Urizen killed. In fact it's even suggested to be more ideal for him than what he ended up doing.If V was slowly dying anyway then killing Urizen would mean that nothing would be left of Vergil. V couldn’t afford that to happen so had to merge with Urizen just to keep Vergil alive even if they weren’t his own intentions it was still in his better interest to keep Vergil alive no matter what.
No, he wanted Urizen to die. The secret ending literally calls it the perfect conclusion everyone was hoping for. His actions during the prologue and after also doesn't support the idea that he wanted to merge, given he left Dante to fight Urizen while he went to get Nero, and that he stayed and fought in Red Grave wasting away for a month after they failed. If he wanted to merge letting Dante fight while he wasn't there would be dangerous, and if he wanted to after, putting himself at risk so much also threatens that possibility. So there you have V willing to sacrifice his own wellbeing to defeat Urizen, regardless of if they both died or not.I mean if they were saying V didn’t have long that seems to me that he only wanted to reach Urizen so he could merge and he didn’t take Dante there to kill Urizen he took him there to weaken him enough to carry out his actions of merging with Urizen.