So, those millions of people Vergil got killed... again.(SPOILERS)

DarkSlayerVergil

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Also as I said before Urizen was the half Vergil chose to stick with while the human side was what he got rid of. All Vergil simply did was make himself a full demon.
 

DarkSlayer54

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Also as I said before Urizen was the half Vergil chose to stick with while the human side was what he got rid of. All Vergil simply did was make himself a full demon.
I saw the opposite to be true. I got the impression that all of Vergils memories went into V, whereas the animalistic obsession with power went into Urizen... and that's all he got.

V was closer to Vergil in personality, and combat abilities than Urizen was. Since V merged with a weakened Urizen, I saw that as Vergils good side finally gaining full control over himself.
 
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Ash

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I agree with DarkSlayer54.

Vergil went into V, and Vergil's mere impulses (like how Doppelganger Dante was just his violent side manifested into reality) were given form.

V, (and Vergil) being the sneak that he is, probably lied to Dante and said that Urizen was actually Vergil, and that he was an entirely new personality with all of Vergil's memories.

Or, he told Dante (part of) the truth and might've said that he disowns the Vergil/Nelo moniker and simply goes by V to make a fresh start. The best lies are based in at least some truth.

Dante, actually growing half a brain this time around, knew that from his experiences that V couldn't be trusted, and simply decided to leave him behind.

So, why did he allow V to get close to Urizen? He didn't know that V could fuse back together with his Urizen half, even after fusing the broken Rebellion with the devil sparda sword.

He thought that fusing was only possible with that sort of power. There was no way to know that the Yamato had gotten stronger (somehow) from Nero rebuilding it and combining its power with his arm.

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Semi-off topic but still relevant:

Side note: For some reason, Nero has some sort of additional Soul Yamato (Soulmato? kek) in two of his moves (Showdown and that other one) once he gets his devil bringer back. Maybe that's one of the reasons why Vergil said "interesting" instead of "Nero" or "unbelievable" when he was defeated.

In DmC Vergil's Downfall, Vergil used his darker half to fuel his power to become a full-fledged Angel (in my opinion anyway -- also, I still think that Bob newscaster guy was an Angel turned traitor hence the Aguila), albeit one who is entirely evil and uses a devil trigger. I still describe him as "Angelic" due to the fact that in his mind, he's still in the right and is only using demons as a means to an end so he can protect humanity "from themselves". Not entirely wrong, but maybe not the correct path to achieve his goals either.

The doppelganger was simply the power of hell and Vergil's evil side (and by extension, Vergil's devil trigger) given form to either defeat Vergil and take his power, or be defeated and be absorbed into the original Vergil to create the next demon king.

DmC Vergil uses his darker half as a means to justify his vengeance and protection over humanity, while V now controls it instead of allowing it to consume him and transform him back into Nelo Angelo.

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Back on topic:

"I have no recollection of this tale." Urizen was most likely Nelo Angelo's second and third final forms (which would explain why he never remembered Dante).

Vergil was just along for the ride and repeating what his Nelo/Urizen dark half (pre-DMC1) was whispering in his mind because he simply needed the rush that came along with gaining more power.

When he became human, he realized that while he still wanted power, he was still remorseful about how he went about it. That part wasn't a lie. He didn't like the fact that Urizen used human blood ("What evil lurks, I must destroy!"), but he also needed a way to become stronger in case Dante decided to take back the Yamato from him.
 

Lain

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"I have no recollection of this tale." Urizen was most likely Nelo Angelo's second and third final forms (which would explain why he never remembered Dante).
For what it's worth, Urizen does recognise Dante and says his name when they first meet in Mission...10 I think it was? The flashback Mission with Dante at any rate.

As for your comment about V when he sees the Angelo. That's an interesting way of seeing it, I had always interpreted it as V being angered by seeing the Angelo because it reminded him of Mundus.

I've been thinking about it and I'm a little iffy on whether V should be referred to as "good" as he does a lot of shady stuff and if his goal was to become complete the entire time then his motives for stopping Urizen may not have been so pure. Hmm... I may need to ponder this more.
 

Ash

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@Lain

Can one be considered remorseful while still being evil? There's no way to tell unless there's enough information to clarify their motives.

I think V was just evil, while Urizen was merely a somewhat unthinking entity who was out of control (and who also had some fragmented memories in regards to Dante). V, like DmC Vergil, probably thought he was doing all of this for what he perceived to be the greater good.

Cliché? Absolutely. But it's a cliché because it still works within the overall narrative. Don't try to reinvent the wheel and all that.
 

DarkSlayerVergil

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I saw the opposite to be true. I got the impression that all of Vergils memories went into V, whereas the animalistic obsession with power went into Urizen... and that's all he got.

V was closer to Vergil in personality, and combat abilities than Urizen was. Since V merged with a weakened Urizen, I saw that as Vergils good side finally gaining full control over himself.
But that's not what he did though, Vergil impaled himself with yamato then proceeded to severe his human half from his body and this only left him with his demonic half. People are treating this as though Vergil split himself into 2 people when all he did was simply severe a piece of him.
 

DarkSlayer54

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But that's not what he did though, Vergil impaled himself with yamato then proceeded to severe his human half from his body and this only left him with his demonic half. People are treating this as though Vergil split himself into 2 people when all he did was simply severe a piece of him.
I guess it depends how you see it.

I see Vergil at the start of the game as being fueled by his demonic side (Urizen). No logic, just obsession. When he split himself, he kept that obsession, maybe a few memories that he needed for the sake of combat skill, and just purged everything else. I see V as being the core of Vergil, it's just that he had continually been losing a war against himself. The way he teleports, his one liners, his summoned swords... everything resembles Vergil more closely than Urizen. Urizen has summoned swords and teleportation as well, but everything is off... it's all corrupted and barbaric. It's all functional, but he wastes so much energy performing his moves.

Since there's more similarity to V, I see him splitting himself as just being the demonic side taking over, and the rest of him being kicked to the sidelines.
 

Stylish Nero

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For what it's worth, Urizen does recognise Dante and says his name when they first meet in Mission...10 I think it was? The flashback Mission with Dante at any rate.

As for your comment about V when he sees the Angelo. That's an interesting way of seeing it, I had always interpreted it as V being angered by seeing the Angelo because it reminded him of Mundus.

I've been thinking about it and I'm a little iffy on whether V should be referred to as "good" as he does a lot of shady stuff and if his goal was to become complete the entire time then his motives for stopping Urizen may not have been so pure. Hmm... I may need to ponder this more.
Well to be fair to V he is dying and can survive if he merges back with Urizen. Its pretty selfish but I'm sure if you were in his shoes you would rather live right. I'm sure he was genuine when he said he had regretted every decision he made but that seems to be more of how it affects him than how it affects others (even the fact thousands or millions losing their lives because of him and not that he care for those who were killed but feels guilty he was responsible) and while in the novel it did show him save civilians it could be to prevent Urizen from gaining more power than genuinely caring for human lives.

I'm sure V genuinely regrets his actions and wants to right his wrongs but probably doesn't want to die too and probably hopes when he can merge back into himself he could fix things or at least Vergil would.
 

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Also as I said before Urizen was the half Vergil chose to stick with while the human side was what he got rid of. All Vergil simply did was make himself a full demon.
Except doing so obviously changed/affected his morals, since his human side would not have acted any differently from demonic side, nor would have recombined Vergil acted differently from Urizen. So no, he was not Vergil. At best, Urizen was a sad parody of Vergil, he had Vergil's obsession with power, but there was just... nothing behind that. Whereas original Vergil, even at his worst, had reasons for that.
 

DarkSlayerVergil

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Except doing so obviously changed/affected his morals, since his human side would not have acted any differently from demonic side, nor would have recombined Vergil acted differently from Urizen. So no, he was not Vergil. At best, Urizen was a sad parody of Vergil, he had Vergil's obsession with power, but there was just... nothing behind that. Whereas original Vergil, even at his worst, had reasons for that.
Nope he was still Vergil just without his human side which technically shouldn't really play that much of a role in terms of characters morals at all.I'm simply going off of what was shown which was that Vergil became a full demon after discarding his human half.
 

Exejpgwmv

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could be that Sparda's seal was just so degraded after millennia that it could no longer stop the Qliphoth from breaking through
But that's not what happened.

Urizen and the tree showed up at the same time. So it's only logical to assume that Vergil, after splitting, brought the Qlipoth into the human world.

Well the plot of DMC5 actually demanded showing people being impaled and killed since it required human blood sacrifice. DMC3 only alluded to people being murdered since you blood markings and Dante (in game) commenting on some of the demons dragging humans away. The casualties in DMC3 didn't matter at all to the plot. The city could've been abandoned before it rose up or Vergil could've chosen to rise Temen-Ni-Gru in a desert the plot will still play out the same. The Qliphoth had to appear in a populated area and show the tentacles kill people and suck them dry to show what it does and how it works. Otherwise players would be wandering around it and questioning where is it getting its blood from.

No it would not 5 is essentially Vergil's redemption story. Having Vergil 100% responsible for the Qliphoth with zero remorse only to have him make a face turn to work with the heroes would make less sense let alone the cast (well at least Nero and Dante) and audience to forgive him would be a lot harder to buy. Its still hard to buy but it makes sense in its own DMC way.

And don't forget Urizen is still part of Vergil and represents his unwavering need for power at any means necessary. Urizen represents the power hungry Vergil we mainly know from DMC3 but to an insane degree and V the humanity he kept hidden and a more truer side to him.



Actually if you juxtapoxe the ending with DMC3 there is a difference. In DMC3 in the end the 2 realms were merging and rather than listen to Dante and leave the Temen-Ni-Gru to stop it he chose to continue to fight whereas in DMC5 the situation was pretty similar and rather than choosing to continue fighting Nero he chose to go stop the Qliphoth himself and was going to do it alone (Dante tagged along for whatever reason). The Qliphoth isn't really much of an inconvenience to Vergil if the Temen-ni-Gru wasn't one to him before. These types of face turns aren't 180 immediately but in Vergil's case its probably a 45 degree turn. DMC3 Vergil probably wouldn't care at all. If anything the "inconvenience" is just an excuse.

Granted I see your point in not stopping it before and choosing to beat Dante first rather than stop it (although its unknown if he would've stopped it after he beats Dante's ass) but if anything he just went from villain to anti-hero. Its Vergil and Vergil is going to Vergil but at least his portal opening days are over so baby steps. Even in DMC6 Vergil will probably not be the beacon of humanity and justice like his brother and son but work with them for the greater good (but will probably use some excuse like fighting a tough opponent or if Nero or Dante dies he won't be able to settle the score).

Uhmmm also the first thing that happens to Vergil when he came back was that Dante attacked him out of the blue and it was Dante who literally said "Cmon Vergil lets do this!" and then again Vergil probably had a mutual feeling. Its a known plot point in DMC3 that Dante and Vergil just really love stabbing fighting each other no matter how irrational it is. A plot point that is carried over even into DMC5. Dante is equally at fault for wanting to fight Vergil before trying to resolve the issue at hand.

The first thing he does when he comes back is pick up V's book. Which is either the same book of William Blake poetry he got from the old man as a child or a recreation of it that came when he split out V (probably the same one though). The V on the book is probably his initial that he engraved on it to have ownership of it to prevent Dante from stealing it. So his experiences as V still hold some weight with him and in the end he gave that same book to Nero. Probably his most valuable possession (outside their mother's amulet but he doesn't have that anymore) so while his growth isn't in your face and obvious he isn't the same guy as he was before.....mostly.

As for your last point,

I'd be more inclined to agree if he at least said he was sorry.
 

Stylish Nero

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But that's not what happened.

Urizen and the tree showed up at the same time. So it's only logical to assume that Vergil, after splitting, brought the Qliphoth into the human world.


I'd be more inclined to agree if he at least said he was sorry.
Vergil isn't the type to say sorry. It would be very out of the blue and even against his character if he openly expresses himself like that. Like I said before baby steps. Vergil isn't going to have some drastic 180 degree character change in a span of an hour or so. That is how these villain face turns usually works.

He shows some degree of fatherly compassion by punching Nero in the face, giving him the book from his childhood, and saying he will kick his ass when he comes back (assuring Nero he doesn't have to worry about him). That is just Vergil's way of expressing himself. Likewise goes to Dante.

At the end of the day whether it required some convincing by his son still went to the underworld to destroy the Qliphoth cleaning up his own mess when there was zero things that would hinder him if he didn't otherwise.
 

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I don't think Vergil's 100% responsible for Urizen/V's actions but I don't think he is 100% absolved. They are reflections of him and he's left answering for them now.
 

Veloran

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No my dude it definitely makes them him. V is Vergil’s good and Urizen is Vergil’s dark.
More accurately, I should have said that they were born from those aspects of Vergil, but once they were distinct beings, they were their own.

If you’re saying they’re not him then how or why would V merging with Urizen “restore” Vergil?
Because they were originally part of Vergil, and reuniting remade him. V and Urizen being individuals when they were on their own doesn't preclude Vergil being reborn if they were to recombine.

The game literally shows us that they are both just him.
It shows the opposite, really. V and Urizen both look and behave differently from Vergil. And they're separate consciousness too. Again, one of the main themes of the game is that experience, perspective, and individual qualia very much constitutes what makes a person.

I think the math example is a good one. 3+2=5. 5 can't exist without both 3 ad 2 together, but neither 3 and 2 alone are 5. And really, in this example, V is the 3 and Urizen is the 2.

V realising that if Dante were to kill Urizen that would essentially destroy his demon/dark side meant that V had to merge himself back to Urizen to reform Vergil.
V wanted to kill Urizen for most of the game though. And I don't think it comes down to V wanting to survive in some way, given he knew from the very start that he was falling apart.

the actions of the gun which being a separate entity still fall on the person who's decision it was to wield it
But it was never Vergil's choice to "wield" Urizen.
Urizen and the tree showed up at the same time. So it's only logical to assume that Vergil, after splitting, brought the Qlipoth into the human world.
Maybe that makes sense as an initial assumption, but a number of things which I've previously pointed out seem to go against that.

Nope he was still Vergil just without his human side
Can you really call it Vergil when it lacked his memories, emotions, morals, ideals, and motivations?
 

LordOfDarkness

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@Veloran - I’m not going to go into detail arguing with whatever you said because I’ve made all the points I wanted to in this thread. You can happily disagree but that isn’t going to change what I said or what I think after playing through the game.

V and Urizen were just Vergil. That’s how I see it and that’s what I took from the game.

The only thing I will say is that V definitely changed his mind on the whole defeating Urizen thing. If V was slowly dying anyway then killing Urizen would mean that nothing would be left of Vergil. V couldn’t afford that to happen so had to merge with Urizen just to keep Vergil alive even if they weren’t his own intentions it was still in his better interest to keep Vergil alive no matter what.

I mean if they were saying V didn’t have long that seems to me that he only wanted to reach Urizen so he could merge and he didn’t take Dante there to kill Urizen he took him there to weaken him enough to carry out his actions of merging with Urizen. So V dying or not didn’t want Urizen being the only half of him (Vergil) that remained. Vergil would have no means to return perhaps once his human side was lost because Urizen would have complete control.
 

Veloran

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V and Urizen were just Vergil. That’s how I see it and that’s what I took from the game.
I mean, I think I've provided enough evidence and argumentation, backed by the main themes of the game and the contradictory nature of Urizen and V to Vergil, to show that as not being the case, but you do you.

If V was slowly dying anyway then killing Urizen would mean that nothing would be left of Vergil. V couldn’t afford that to happen so had to merge with Urizen just to keep Vergil alive even if they weren’t his own intentions it was still in his better interest to keep Vergil alive no matter what.
But V was dying and only barely held together by demonic energy from the start, and he still wanted Urizen killed. In fact it's even suggested to be more ideal for him than what he ended up doing.

I mean if they were saying V didn’t have long that seems to me that he only wanted to reach Urizen so he could merge and he didn’t take Dante there to kill Urizen he took him there to weaken him enough to carry out his actions of merging with Urizen.
No, he wanted Urizen to die. The secret ending literally calls it the perfect conclusion everyone was hoping for. His actions during the prologue and after also doesn't support the idea that he wanted to merge, given he left Dante to fight Urizen while he went to get Nero, and that he stayed and fought in Red Grave wasting away for a month after they failed. If he wanted to merge letting Dante fight while he wasn't there would be dangerous, and if he wanted to after, putting himself at risk so much also threatens that possibility. So there you have V willing to sacrifice his own wellbeing to defeat Urizen, regardless of if they both died or not.
 

LordOfDarkness

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@Veloran - I gave you my thoughts no need to be rude about it. I’m not going to rise to your bait when I’ve already said everything I needed to. If you don’t like it then that isn’t my problem or concern, thanks. You’ll find many people in life have different opinions to you and that won’t change by things you say so not much point arguing it. I didn’t take away from the game anything that you’ve said and that’s literally it. There’s no point in continuing to get me to address your points. I’m not going to repeat things I’ve already said as they’re already in this thread and that would be pointless. But if you want to keep on about it, then you do you, right.
 
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berto

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The way the title is phased it makes it sound like this is the 12th time he's done it. He didn't kill millions in 3, he probably didn't even kill dozens. The people of that city fled at the sight of the tower and most of those that were killed were killed by the demons that gather around the tower. In that respect Vergil didn't go out of his way to kill them, that implies intent to kill. Anyone who died because of the tower raising was a side effect. Vergil doesn't care enough about humans to let their presence dictate his actions and if they didn't die because of him they would've died because of Arkham. In 5, though, there very much is intention and want. He wanted their blood and even if it was the darkest of his intents, his dark side, the evil part of him, the 'demon' that did it and not the whole man, the millions that are dead are still dead because he wanted them dead. He wanted the apple. Any action the 'demon' takes is still something the whole man must be credited for, just as much as any action the 'human' would have must also be credited to both.

The thing is, the people in this series have become rather inconsequential. Have you ever seen Dante, Nero or anyone else, for that matter, show any concern of any kind, or to even just be slightly affected by the death of those millions? The people are props and have no real impact in the story beyond how they serve the plot. Their lives and deaths affected nothing on anyone in this game. Just as the series treats it all as no big deal I'm equally unaffected. Who cares? The cast sure as hell doesn't.
 

Lain

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The problem isn't so much them not focusing on all of Vergil's past crimes. But as the OP point's out, in DMC5 they put an awful lot of focus on all the people getting killed and how Urizen needs to be stopped... only for them to completely forget about it when they actually face Urizen/Vergil and as a result it creates a jarring dissonance as the plot shifts to Jerry Springer Sparda family drama show.
 
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